The last two picutres I've uploaded have dissapeared somehow. I know the first one "Deerfoot 1" had been voted and commented on, and now I have a message saying that somebody left a message on "Deerfoot 2". When I click the link, it says that the image doesn't appear to exist. I don't see it from my gallery or caedes control either. What gives?

You got me there... I don't see them in your gallery, and a search only reveals "Deerfoot 1", but won't open it. Saying it does not exist. Search for "deerfoot 2" only brings up the first image.

They were removed under the snapshot policy, they are blurry, shaky, and unfocused images.

boourns...that was the point. It's not like I stuck them in the photography folder...I stuck them in the abstract folder because thats what they were. Considering the comments I received on the first one - such as "...continue down this vein..." from Derain, and "I quite like this, I think I've got a new background..." from Canuck_Photo_Guy, as well as support from deep_sapphire, I think that people using this site appreciate the images more than as just a "snapshot". I really think removing these two pictures based on the snapshot policy was a mistake on the part of the moderator.

Well IMO people need to start to learn to accept the decisions of the people who run the site. Piner is quite right in what he said, I didn't remove the image but I don't beleive it has much artistic merit and it is hardly an original idea.

"Well IMO people need to start to learn to accept the decisions of the people who run the site."

What an original concept.

Well IMO 800 pictures a week of flowers, squirrels and ducks are definetly not original nor interesting, nor artistic. What's done is done, obviously, but I stand by my opinion that neither of those two images were snapshots. I can see your point of view with regards to "Deerfoot 2", but not with "Deerfoot 1". The only difference between "Deerfoot 1" and a fractal was the means to create the image. There was a time where I accidentally uploaded a snapshot, and by all means, that probably should have been removed. I intended to remove it myself, but for some reason people were downloading it, so I left it up. Here, I though I had something that wasn't a snapshot, and was something that might fill a little niche with users on this site. Again, people were downloading it, but this time it was removed. Why is it that a moderator can approve an image upload, and then days later another can decide to remove it? Why isn't it just that if an image is approved, that decision is respected?

Ahem... since when does anyone around here respect our decisions?

When we approve images for upload, we are simply looking for anything that is offensive or an obvious rip. Usually a quick scan of the images is all that's required. Obviously some less obvious rips and snapshots will slip through. That doesn't mean we aren't "allowed" to remove them later.

Some shots, especially by new members are allowed to post so that they can receive feedback from more experienced members on how to improve their work.

While people may disagree on what makes something a snapshot, clearly the great eye chose these people to be moderators because he appreciated their taste and views.

While the site may indeed be flooded w/certain types of images *starts building ark*, why don't you simply appreciate that those mods are working harder to increase the quality of the images viewed on this site? Tis unfortunate that you don't agree with their opinion of your images, but it's their choice, and there are certainly other outlets to post those 2 images if you feel strongly about them.

and now… I'm going to play spin the bottle. who's coming with me?

Might I suggest that another reason some mods are reluctant to reject snapshots at the approval stage is that they are unwilling to get involved in a debate/arguement/confrontation with the member involved...

I understand, but I'm still dissapointed, and I still don't think "Deerfoot 1" (at the very least) should have been removed. I think that if an image is let through the initial gate, let the voting booth decide from there on. At the end of the month, if its no good in the eyes of the mods, archive it and leave it at that. I would say most people are fine if an image gets archived. Sure there's no prestige from having your image go to the perms, but at least it's still there if a few users - and not the general caedes pop. - really like your work. I'm done with my rant...I guess I'll have to get out there and take some more shots :)

as has been mentioned before, possibly by me .. as the image base grows larger and larger the mods need to maximize the time they spend within the new images gallery in order to stand even half a chance of staying on top of it all .. and so images are dealt with sooner than the previous 30-60 days ... We have all had images processed contrary to our wishes\desires ...

the "snapshot policy" .. a long-standing rule of this site .. has been largely ignored by the staff, as well as the posting membership ... the site has mutated from a premium desktop\wallpaper source into a photo sharing social club with images of grandchildren and not-so-grand children

there is NOW a groundswell movement bubbling up from the base to "take back" the control that has been lost over the last couple years and re-assert the site's charter focus as a "premium content source" .... and ... I would assume that, in the next couple weeks, you will see more and more discussion of this direction re-focus

consider, if you will, that some members have never posted a desktop-worthy image .. and that the site is not even that in their minds ... and as the site ramps up for a more open SIZE acceptance .. (ie = widescreen and, maybe, vertical\portrait format) .. keeping the submissions ART-CENTRIC and not "snapshots" is going to be a constant struggle

Oh, you make it sound so interesting. Does this qualify as a national issue b/c i'm supposed to summarize one - the mccain 'slippage' isn't exactly a heart racing issue.

I'm being mocked by a nott ..

:o)

Keifer is correct in assuming that we will be enforcing the snapshot policy (old and new images), as we "re-assert the site's charter focus as a premium content source" (as Keith so well stated it).

nice! can't wait...

One thing strikes me as potentially problematic. If this happened to me, it would bother me that I had not been given a chance to read the comments which might, after all, help me to understand the decision and upload a better image next time. Is there some way of ensuring the comments are still available to the artist even after the image is removed?

Please note that I am not merely not trying to get involved in the above debate, I am trying not to get involved in it.

- cfr

We usually archive snapshots rather than remove them actually. So you can still read any comments on the image and even ask for feedback if you want, just link to the image in your personal gallery.

Sounds good. Sorry if I misunderstood the process.

- cfr

"We usually archive snapshots rather than remove them actually. So you can still read any comments on the image and even ask 'for feedback if you want, just link to the image in your personal gallery."
I am finding this confusing Sam, The thread started off about 'snapshots' removed and this seems to indicate they are not removed, but archived, and sounds as though all archived images are deemed to be snapshots. If that is the case I am wasting my time lol
Personally I have never uploaded what I consider to be a snapshot, but if it was decided by the powers that be they are, I would respect that.
None of us like our work being archived I guess, and when I think of the 100's of hours work that have gone into, in particular, my flower photos, with only 4 of them(to date) being made permanent it is a bit distressing to read the above and learn that they are considered snapshots. Or have I misundersood what you said?

Camerama - your statement "flowers, squirrels and ducks are definetly not original nor interesting, nor artistic." Art, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Do you not think that the challenge is to make these things look 'artistic and original' ? We all have different likes and dislikes and I think your statement is both unfair and showing a lack of understanding about what 'art' is. The art of the photographer is as much 'art' as any other medium, and although very few reach the high standard required for it to be seen by 'everyone' as art, we all have to learn. Some of us actually LIKE flowers squirrels and ducks, and I make no apology for that. I like landscapes and abstracts as well. A picture does not HAVE to be deep and meaningful with a hidden message that in many cases is known only to the artist, and can be interpreted by the viewer in many different ways. Perhaps if you look at some of the flowers ducks and squirrels etc you may even see a message in them too.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assumed Samatar to be saying that snapshots were usually archived and not that archived images are usually snapshots. (Compare "cats usually have tails" with "things with tails are usually cats".)

And apologies if I missed your point, too.

- cfr

yes - images that are archived are not neccessarily snapshots whereas all snapshots get archived.

Apologies - I can see clearly now - sleep was needed lol. perhaps I should be called Alice :)
But . . . .shouldn't snapshots be deleted rather than archived ?



From Alice In Wonderland. . . .
`Then you should say what you mean,' the March Hare went on.

`I do,' Alice hastily replied; `at least--at least I mean what I say--that's the same thing, you know.'

`Not the same thing a bit!' said the Hatter. `You might just as well say that "I see what I eat" is the same thing as "I eat what I see"!'

`You might just as well say,' added the March Hare, `that "I like what I get" is the same thing as "I get what I like"!'

`You might just as well say,' added the Dormouse, who seemed to be talking in his sleep, `that "I breathe when I sleep" is the same thing as "I sleep when I breathe"!'

LynEve, I didn't mean to insult anyone, and I appologize if I did. I found Samatar's comment a bit harsh, and was merely trying to point out that there is a lot of images which aren't really drastically different from what's on this site already. Your signature "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" is so true. With the two images that started this thread off, I was trying to do something that I hadn't seen much of, something out of the ordinary.

If mods are indeed trying to boost the quality of images on this site, thats great. In my case, both images were removed, and thus comments lost. And, as Margali points out, "it would bother me that I had not been given a chance to read the comments which might, after all, help me to understand the decision and upload a better image next time".

So don't think that PhilicUK's comment "...all snapshots get archived" is as simple as it sounds.

nothing is ever as simple as it sounds :-)

The current idea is that we will archive snapshots after about 1 week. This way, the member gets feedback for improvement on their image, but it doesn't take up space in the galleries and the policy should also have the effect of discouraging people from uploading thses types of images. By archiving the image the person can still read the feedback and ask for more in the forums if they wish. Server space isn't an issue at the moment so there's no real advantage in deleting rather than archiving.

I'm glad to see something seems to be coming out of this

Sounds good :)

Why do similar pictures of what I would say less quality stay in the galleries and then others of better quality are deleted entirely? I don't understand I guess. Shouldn't there be standards for all photo's and if a better version comes along the others be archived or deleted?

'less quality stay in the galleries and then others of better quality are deleted entirely'

images that are in the galleries that are perceived to be a lower quality than current standards are usually older files - often years older. periodically the perm galleries are also swept through and these images get archived. this doesn't happen as often as the new image galleries for obvious reasons. new images are not often deleted outright unless they are found to be rips or containing inappropriate content. blatant snapshots are also likely to not be approved. with regard to any action - this isnt always the final say in the matter and things may be promted or demoted later on after further deliberation.

Now I understand. Thanks!

"periodically the perm galleries are also swept through and these images get archived." This is true, and one of mine bit the dust after a very short stay in the limelight. Are they randomly chosen for archiving from the perm galleries (according to similarity etc) or is there a formula i.e. date/index rating ? If this were the case than the images you say Phil are perceived to be of a lower quality than current standards would be the first to go. Surely this would be a good thing?

The archiving work in the Perms is very light and concerns essentially old images or images from missing members. Due to the constant improvement of the quality on the site -except snapshots ;-), some of images are "perceived to be of a lower quality than the current standards", like you said exactly.
We are working with the same criteria than to promote images through the perms.
But I insist to say it is a very light 'grooming'...

My archived perm was not old (uploaded June 06) and neither am I a missing member :) But I have to agree now that I have a new and improved monitor it was not of a suitable standard. At the time I was upset, and could not understand why it had happened. Older wiser and able to see better now :)
I wonder if, in such cases a short automatic pm could be sent to the artist to tell them.

Yes, it could, but we already spend a lot of time for caedes maintenance...

Point taken.
:)

If it was automatic, though, it shouldn't take any additional time, should it?

Don't know how much work it would be to implement that, though.

- cfr

Yes, but Caedes has certainly other things to do...

I think notifiying people would cause more problems, not less...

You mean the autotorrent of complaints it would create? Why Samaseer… I'm shocked shocked that you think anything like that would happen. 8•P

On the contrary I think it would discourage people from asking "why?"
i.e. as in 'this image is now considered not to be of a high enough standard due to increasing improvement of uploads' or 'this particuar subject is over represented therefore the 'lesser quality' images are being archived"

Longer standing members understand better the reasons but newer (and just as potentially valuable) members can be puzzled and upset when following the thrill of having an image permed suddenly sees it relegated, and the desire to know why leads to questions, which are seen by some as 'problems'. The fact that the questions are not conclusively answered leads to frustration.
Automated notifications are sent when a subscription is about to expire, and again when one is made. Surely once set up, a similar notification could be used, perhaps with the proviso 'no correspondence will be entered into' to prevent an autotorrent of complaints.

Generally my experience has been that the more you try to explain or "justify" things to people, the more fault they find with what you say. Sad, but true...

We are different in NZ LOL

Different... as in "special"... right?? ;-)

"and the desire to know why leads to questions, which are seen by some as 'problems'. The fact that the questions are not conclusively answered leads to frustration."

Yup, that about sums up why this tread was started in the first place ;)

The problem is that whether or not a question has been "conclusively answered" is subjective. In most cases answering a question just leads to two more and it drags on from there... there is no answer that is going to satisfy everyone. It would be a different story if people were able to just accept the decisions of the management, even occasionally, but that isn't the case around here...

"Different... as in "special"... right?? ;-)"
Not at all Sam, just tongue in cheek there. You must know we are 'different' - there are enough of us over there enjoying your sunshine lol
I think you throw a very wide net to include everyone in the unacceptance theory. There would be no one here at all if management decisions were not accepted. Debate is good for the most part,leading to better understanding and there have been many accolades for the recent decision to relax the sizing regulations.
"You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time".
or Bob Dylan's version . . . .
Half of the people can be part right all of the time,
Some of the people can be all right part of the time.
But all the people can't be all right all the time

Then of course there is 'When in Rome do as the Romans do' attributed to Saint Ambrose (c.340-397)and it still stands true today. By and large that is what most of us do.

I don't mean that there aren't people who don't accept decisions, but that every time a decision is made there are always people who refuse to accept it, and they go out of their way to make sure everyone knows it...

*gathers all those people up and tosses them in the "box o' stupid people"* 8•P

I'm off to shoot some flowers before I am mistaken for box fodder :) :)

Good idea! ;-)

I don't think you have to worry about me posting anything as "normal" as a snapshot...(LOL)

*scratches head*
Whats a snap shot?