here.

...link provided by the same person [Edit This] who always posts amazing links on 'that other site' (dslreports).

well done,Noah. just these two paragraphs from his article say so much....

"The curse was that I had allowed the dynamics of these sharing communities to steal away the joy I had in creating images. Very simply, the feedback loops in these communities include voting and rating mechanisms that can become addictive at worse and self-deceiving at best. This may sound like a harsh evaluation, but upon a lengthy evaluation, this is where I have found myself.

I don't think I need to explain how these rating systems can be addictive, as anyone who has spent a little time on these sites can easily identify those photographers who's primary goal it seems is to gather popularity for themselves rather than actually improve their photographic skills."

I think this sums it up pretty well..

"how helpful it is to be able to share images with photographers all over the world. That is a dynamic that won't change. But somewhere along the way, this feedback mechanism can have the power to seduce you into creating images based upon how well received you think they will be by others. And that is a cancer on personal creativity."

I agree with that.. I know artists on here who have an amazing creativity but are holding back on it because of this, they are only creating images that they know will get the votes etc and not expanding on their creative abilities...

*gives Noah a standing ovation*

Execllent article, and find, I feel it sums up the situation most appropriately.

So I guess that means we are all going to abandon caedes as well...?

No, it just helps to illustrate a cycle that can happen. I, myself, have noticed it with my own work. Deciding what type of image to upload, based on how the previous image was received (i.e. what works & what doesn’t).

For some people its based on popularity, for others a continued sense of recognition. However, in the case of Caedes.net, that pressure for a strong voting base also comes into play in where the perms are concerned. As has been said before, that the “C word” is considered.

Bottom line, can it take away from your drive to create? Hell yeah, it ceases to become fun & fulfilling when it feels like it has become another job. That is where I think the people who have responded to this article are coming from, they found something within it they related too. It by no means signifies they are about to jump ship.


(Please. keep in mind, these are my own opinions)

Thats not what I meant either Sam... my comment was that some people get too caught up in it and are only doing art that they know will get the big "high five" from others.. they are not creating the way the want to.. its holding back their creativity and expanding their abilities... and I'm not leaving... you cant get rid of me that easily... =PP

Well, from the 'other side' - I try to maintain a degree of creativity - although I know they will bomb in the VB. And they do - along with others. It isn't easy but its the way I will go. Post, bomb, get quite a few good feedbacks, delete, start again - play the vb game, play the help newcomers game (when 90% don't bother to reply) - yes, I'm hooked, but just sometimes, get a little bit depressed...

*heavy ... heavy ... sigh*

Simple.

Resist and stay true to your own vision.

Is that so hard?

All it takes for me ... is to connect with one ... one individual on an image I produced ... and I am satisfied beyond that which I take from having produced the piece in the first place.

This is ... and always has been ... a question of choice.

Exercise it as you see fit ... if that brass ring of getting into the perms is it for you ... good luck. And no, I am not being facetious.

Want some proof that the infamous C-Index is not the only measure of ascending to the perms?

Look at this great image ... notice the score.

The photographer in question is producing art on his terms and managed a grab at the brass ring.

Kudos to Matt. And ... to the mods for recognizing a quality piece.

It ain't perfect people ... and it is most definitely what you make it.

Excellent words Les and a perfect choice of images to reflect the words ;=)

I don't consider myself cursed, depressed , seduced or my drive removed ( whew, that would be painful!) nor have any expectations of how an image is going to be received either, whether in the previous voting systems or the voting booth.
I actually consider myself blessed that I am allowed to post images free of charge and allow others from all over the world to view them.

The additional blessings are getting to know others as I have done here on the site. People I have not 'met' face to face, but we have a common bond called art. We don't feel the need to define art...(well, I don't at least) and it breaks my heart to see people get upset and pull their gallery and head for another geographical escape. Fortunately for them, the Internet seems to be endless, so they can always run and find a new place to hang their hat ( and their art) for awhile.

To those who endure the changes here and hang tough......
my heartfelt thanks to you.....;=)

When we become perfect beings, then we can have our license to make everything else perfect ;=)

"When life hands you a lemon, you can either suck on it or make lemonade."

Tell a professional to be more expressive and expand his horizons. You already know the answer. I had one tell me my gallery (on that site) lacked drama. So what do I do? Sit on pictures no one wants to even look at? My creativity comes from what people like. I just don't post the ones I like. Why? It stifles my creativity. Photography never has been nor ever will be about what you like. It's what 'they' like. It has nothing to do with egos or gaining popularity. Remember...fame only lasts 15 minutes.

Jerry ... I don't have any ... any problems with how you approach your craft.

Allow me to reiterate:

"This is ... and always has been ... a question of choice.

Exercise it as you see fit ..."

And if I may be so bold ...

I would never give away my personal power to one or any individuals. This said in response to the critic that commented your work lacked drama.

Some more ... if you will please ...

"A great photograph is one that fully expresses what one feels, in the deepest sense, about what is being photographed."

"A photograph is usually looked at - seldom looked into."

"It is my intention to present - through the medium of photography - intuitive observations of the natural world which may have meaning to the spectators."

"Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas. It is a creative art."

And this just for Jerry, and posted for some levity. :o)

"I am probably afraid that some spectator will not understand my photography - therefore I proceed to make it really less understandable by writing defensibly about it."

As to whom I am quoting, that is left as an exercise for the reader. ;o)

Yeah I hear ya Les. Some of my best shots were hurry ups cuz I had to take a whizz. Talk about expression...now that's expression.

(*jerry loses yet another 100 points on the humanity meter*)

Look at me....does it matter?

jerry .. you'll find another robot someday .. I believe there is somebody out there for all of us

though you may have to start frequenting pagan rituals

*ahem*

No robots in my circle.

I have been married 43 years last Friday (the 2nd), trust me...we are both robots. Though I am the better looking one.

Well, congrats on 43 years of servitude... umm I mean marriage... yeah thats it, marriage. :oP

Well, too bad you got married so late in your life...did i really take you 30,000 years?

*reads Noah's post*

o_O

What??

Think about it Les... it's Noah.
:oP

LOL.

I am sure he is referring to the longevity of robots ... just wanted to make him work a bit more.

Ok ... a lot more, you knowa whatta I'ma sayin'?

He's over 32,000 years old...it even says so on his profile.

That's my birthday Noah.

and so another potentially interesting discussion slides into a pool of banal slime. again.

then Phil... draw us out of our banality, and enlighten us.

sorry, im all out of miracles.

Oh come now, I'm sure you must have some opinions of the subject at hand. Otherwise, why call it a potentially interesting conversation?

er..because it had potential?

Well, I'm guessing people have said what they feel they needed to say. So please, if you can, give us a new view point to add to the mix and keep the conversaion going and fresh.

Even if people (all 8 of them) have said what they needed to say, that shouldn’t imply that the discussion is over. Flooding it with inconsequential and trivial chat serves no other purpose than to cheapen and lessen the original point that was being discussed and to discourage others from joining the debate.

As to the original blog post itself, it couldn’t be more applicable to the current situation at this site if it tried. It has always been made clear historically on Caedes that the numbers - be they karma, c-index etc - are completely meaningless and are just simple numeric representations of peoples involvement or opinion right or wrong on images. Despite all this, people continue to obsess on them to the extent that it becomes a totally divisive issue spawning all manner of conspiracy theories, troll baiting and ill feeling. Creating and sharing art - OF ANY KIND - is supposed to be a fun and personally lifting experience. It’s not about manufacturing work to keep your ‘fan club’ happy and affording them the opportunity to big you and your ego up or to take the opportunity to attack and belittle others work. Creating work in that kind of atmosphere is a soulless and ultimately pointless exercise. If people remembered why they were doing something i.e. for the sheer enjoyment of doing it rather than focusing on ‘popularity’ or what people expect of them then they would have a much more productive output and experience here that by default would improve the personal value of their work and the pleasure it gives to others.

*clap clap clap... well said Phil.. i've been saying that every time the "C" word comes up.. seems to fall on deaf ears though... good to see i'm not the only one who thinks like that..

gee ... wasn't there a curtie around here throwing stones a minute ago?

where are his stones now?

:o)

Actually, that curtie fell asleep, all the coffe and caffine he had imbided throughout the day finally wore off. :oP

As for Phil, very well stated, and thank you for joining the rest of us lowly people here.

"Creating and sharing art - OF ANY KIND - is supposed to be a fun and personally lifting experience."
I couldn't agree more on this point. For myself, my breaking point came when I basically was called out, having to defend my own work, as "My Chosen Family" was sumarily pulled and I was acused of producing pornography leading others down a path of addiction and sin. Sure, the image was later replaced, but is this type of thing going to become the norm? Where, what I post is viewed in the most negative light possible?

"Creating work in that kind of atmosphere is a soulless and ultimately pointless exercise."

to bring this conversation back to it's starting point, yes, to a certain degree there's a 'trap' aspect to sharing one's work online. I've occasionally gotten sucked into it, and for a little while, I wasn't going for the shot I 'felt', but rather...what 'they would like'.

Whether Noah's find (I still believe it's a good one btw) inspires people to leave, either permanently, or for a while, I believe will depend entirely upon their experience here, and their individual interpretation of the article. It may not even lead to any mass exodus at all, but perhaps inspire a re-direction towards the work that we "feel". I for one, think I'll probably take that path.

As for the concern that "everyone will abandon caedes"... lately, from some (definitely not all) posts, that wasn't really a major concern. if anything, the perceived vibe was more along the lines of "don't like it? c'ya.. more where you came from".

anyone who'd like to reasonably and calmly counter that, please by all means...I'd love to be wrong about this.

Curt: While I do believe you should have been notified when the image was placed in limbo of why, etc., I can't blame the mods for pulling it when it received a complaint. They quickly assessed it and returned it to it's proper place, which was the responsible way to handle the issue in my opinion.

I'd also like you to take heart and remember… there were one or 2 limited individuals who expressed the views you stated, but remember how many more there were who refuted that.

There will always be select people who are zealous and blind, and offensive in their attempt to enlighten you to their truth… but remember it's theirs, not yours, and not most of the other people who responded. Don't allow it to affect you this way, because then they win. And I'm friggin tired of seeing them win by bullying the rest of the world into submission.

Cat, is correct - your image wasn’t 'summarily pulled', when moderators receive a complaint on an image they normally move it to limbo for the complaint to be assessed and if it is judged to be warranted the image is removed permanently and the artist involved is then notified about it. this is a standard procedure and not a personal attack or big conspiracy under the Big Evil Plot®. I realise that many people apparently take strange comfort in believing they are being personally targeted and would willingly accept this unlikely scenario over any far simpler or more rational explanation but that is all part of the general attitude I was referring to in my original post and in the article Noah referred to. As is the dismissive and vaguely sarcastic style response such as ‘thank you for joining the rest of us lowly people here’ when you get called on a valid point.

Rob’s point about people staying/leaving/adjusting their style and reasoning for being here is hopefully one that people will also consider. If people have genuine grievances about issues then that's all well and good and they should be heard and addressed in the appropriate manner. Problems occur when seemingly insurmountable egos stand in the way of rational thought and you get the increasingly common scenario of people doing the old ‘I’ve never been so insulted - do as I say or I’m leaving’ falling on their swords routine. Strangely enough, moderators don’t often respond well to being threatened with ultimatums.

I would hope that we can all go down the ‘inspire a re-direction towards the work that we "feel"‘ route that Rob suggested and take this place for what it is intended to be - a shared community resource where people can interact, inspire and learn rather than a hunting ground for back stroking and unwarranted flattery. Any system can be made to work or to fail depending on how people choose to approach it. It’s just a shame that there are a significant amount of people who seam to seek nothing more than to corrupt or manipulate it to suit their own needs and requirements at the expense of others.

"It’s just a shame that there are a significant amount of people who seam to seek nothing more than to corrupt or manipulate it to suit their own needs and requirements at the expense of others."

would you mind clarifying that? i'd like to understand what you just said, because it seems to directly conflict with the site's stance of "there's absolutely no way voting can be used to intentionally alter scores"

The issue of vote attacking is I think a separate issue to the anti establishment conspiracy biased argument I mentioned before where that exists for the most part solely in the mind of the individual whereas voting anomalies seams to have become a very real and depressing reality.

The new voting system was designed to be as fair and unbiased as is possible to counter the previously unreliable and often abused method but I think it is becoming increasingly obvious that there is a substantial amount of, for want of a better description, vote rigging going on, where by whatever means, distinct groups of people are circumventing the intended fair nature of the voting system by either over inflating friends images or knocking down those of people they don’t agree with. The logistics of doing this are not complex and certainly easily achievable when acted upon by a clique collectively.

There are many works from all disciplines that have seemingly incomprehensible scores - either in the positive or the negative - that do not reflect on the content at all and show at best a complete disregard by the voter and at worst outright hostility and disdain. This really is what I was referring to in the last part of my latest post that you quoted.

I have only just read the original link of Noah's which started this discussion.
I do not consider myself by any stretch of the imagination a 'photographer' and therefore I see no geat wrongdoing in endeavouring to produce images that will be pleasing to those who view them. Just as important though, is that the image is pleasing to oneself. Sometimes those that are do not ring anyone else's bells to any great degree but for my own part I do not see that as an unacceptable situation, and along he way I have the benefit of learning new skills and improving my efforts by the comments and opinions of others.
Phils words " it is intended to be - a shared community resource where people can interact, inspire and learn rather than a hunting ground for back stroking and unwarranted flattery." puts it in a nutshell.
To interact with every member would be an impossibility so the friends list is a good thing and if along they way flattery creeps in then most of us are intelligent enough to take it for what it is worth, and a little bit of back stroking never hurt anyone, so long as it it tempered by realism and common sense. To go the other way and deliberately downtread works because of who made them is childish beyond belief.

Well said Eve.....;=)

This is shaping up to be a great thesis.

'a little bit of back stroking never hurt anyone, so long as it it tempered by realism and common sense' true enough, however it increasingly seams to be treated with the same extremes, if not worse, as the negative aspect of the voting system these days - providing an equally unproductive and discouraging result. a bit of flattery is fine when it's presented as a comment but pointless when it's expressed as a vote.

I apologise for not specifying that I was referring to comments, certainly not votes. I have made it clear in several of my posts that I regard voting as something that should be done with responsibility and maturity. I believe I exercise both as far as I am able and I think it is not asking too much for this to be the norm. Its not that difficult.

It becomes inevitable that styles and types of images should become recognisable, so in effect complete 'anonymity' is not possible. Perhaps this aids those who wish to play games with the voting system, as much as favouring friends does, if in fact that happens. I regard those on my friends list as being worthy of a truthful vote, just the same as every other member.

I think my posts are a good example of the voting system being used to punish a member. Not all of my work is good; BUT some are just plain terrific-equal to some I see in the featured or permanent galleries. I have not yet had above a 60. This would not bother me, unless I take a look at some of the work I see in the Permanent gallery; frankly, some of the work there pales next to mine. I am convinced there are a group of people who vote my work as a zero in order to keep it lowly rated. I hear often that we should not care what the rating is; BULL! (and my being frank vs. "diplomatic" is what causes these people to rank my work so poorly)) It is natural to like praise and recognition; I would wager that many here would leave the site if the availability of the Permanent Gallery or Featured Photos did not exist. Why else are there so many who manipulate the voting and blatantly over-vote their "friends"?
As to it being impossible that the voting can be manipulated, that is simply not so. To wit: the expressions above admitting to it.
I post what I feel /think is good work vs. being swayed by what others believe in order to get higher ratings ; in my case, that would hardly be attainable given the folks who deign it ok to vote on my work with zeros. I know for certain some people will not even look at my work.So drop the stuff that everyone is given a fair shake; it simply is delusional.
For shame!
As to my being blunt vs. polite and diplomatic.........It is appalling how many people if "favorites" on this site can say whatever they want and are supported by the ones who are also favorites. I have been insulted, told my work is worthless, etc.by the very same people who ares so popular here and know they can get away with it. Pretty nervy for them to tell me I should be more polite, etc.I do not insult people, call them names, or make fun of their work; I DO say if I do not like a post (and give reasons) and very frequently give high praise where warranted-REGARDLESS of the author. I would rather be up front than to use so-called diplomatic language all the while being sarcastic and mean-spirited. There is a group here who think they are quite special; they gravitate to the others who admire themselves so much and give reviews to each that are worthless, by nature of ALWAYS being very positive-no matter what the post! I would rather want to know what another really thinks about my images based on really attending to the image than what someone says in order to belong to a clique. It's a bit like suburbia where your neighbours all smile as they see you driving past, and tell their bridge partners awful things about you,whether based on reality or not. I would not want to live there.

the current voting system was, in fact, an effort to fix what was a blatant favoritism system before .. where the voting mechanism was on the image page .. so, therefore, only people who were drawn to the image (or author) were "likely" to vote on it ... c-index scores were averaging 70-95

the current system CAN be abused, yes .. due to the fact that images show up in the new images gallery before they have received any votes, let alone a full dose of 20 votes for a 'stabilized' rating .. this allows people to associate an image with its author .. and there are some who claim that a given author produces recognizable results .. this, too, can be true, in some cases.

the only 'partial' fix would be to hold up display of an image on the site until it has rec'd a full score .. possibly 2 weeks .. needless to say most would find that unpalatable .. and it would not solve the 'recognizable' author or those that sign their work

could I interest you in naming names? .. these people who are conspiring against you? .. I would like to compare your list to the list of those that conspire against me.

I have been insulted, told my work is worthless, etc.
Per your quote above Alain, I hope that you have hit the complain button or notified someone of the abuse you received.
Unfortunately, as long as there are people, there will be human behavior. The site administrator devotes many hours trying to perfect what will always be an imperfect system.
All of us will never get along & agree with anything (including each other's art).
As for worthless reviews, in my opinion, that is for the artist to determine, not for the rest of us to decide. Once again, art is subjective.
If you suspect that you are being targeted with zero's, contact *caedes. He has the ability to look at all voting scores and who voted.
As Kieffer said, this is the best we have at this time.
Hope you have a great day Alain ;=)

He's, no doubt, talking about me .. he's said it before .. if he states that I zero vote his images, that's where his research falls apart

I'm adept at reading between the whines

Alain: Are you saying that some (bad) members are looking at the new images, then quick go to the voting booth, to give bad votes on your images?
I can't believe that...
Seeing your gallery, I think you uploaded a lot of experimental images (like Study /hand........Piano)
By experience, I can say that this kind of images never received high votes on the site. People like to see nice landscapes, flowers, mountains... That's all!
Nothing to see with the voting booth system.

in a sense though that is still bad that people are judging images not on its individual merit but instead using personal likes/dislikes to punish someone for trying something different. there are scores flying around that are both ludicrously over inflated as well criminally low - even if you don't like a particular style of image be it cg, photographic or illustrative you should at the very least be able to appreciate either the technical skill or artistic interpretation that has gone into creating it and base your score on it accordingly. the same goes for 'bigging' up an image you like for no other reason than you either like that kind of image or the person that created it regardless of the quality - or lack thereof - of the piece itself and promptly proceed to shower it with treacle coated and for the most part unwarranted or unjustifiable praise..

many people will protest that they judge things in an unbiased and fair manner but I'm curious as to how that actually pans out in practice with all the inbuilt subconscious bias that people inevitably carry around with them.

that would be a very interesting study Phil.....excellent point!

I am often surprised to see a comment saying 'gave this a 10 in the voting booth',when often, imho the image is not worthy of it. Strange 'I gave this a 1 in the VB' is never seen. I have given very few 10's - they are reserved for truly exceptional works. I will continue to 'protest' that I endeavour to judge in an unbiased and fair way - it takes a bit of extra time to put aside personal feelings about an image and do that, but surely the artist can expect that from all voters.Personalities should not enter the equation at all - it is not only unfair but is doing the artist no favours either. As for the treacle - if we are honest we all like praise, but it is the final number in the voting that SHOULD tell us the concensus of opinion. It is possible to mention what is liked about a picture, offer advice or suggestions if the expertise and knowledge (and confidence) of the commenter allows, and still give a fair judgment in the VB. Some of us may 'go into raptures' as has been said, about a picture of the type we particularly like - I can do that with landscapes or florals, animal life, and many abstracts. I have never gone into raptures about a car in real life and so am unlikely to do so in comments about a picture BUT I can still, I think, give a truthful and honest appraisal as to the quality and value of it when I vote.
Yes, I have seen scores that appear unfair either too high or too low, my own images included but I do not like to think that is because of some sort of conspiracy.
Those who believe there is a conspiracy against them must name names to those in authority otherwise how can anything ever be resolved?

I am still puzzled as to who the'favourites' on this site are. Are they people who get lots of comments? Give lots of comments? Upload the maximum images? Some of the best artists here do not do that. Are they those who produce consistently high quality and interesting work? Surely that is a good reason to be a 'favourite'? I have some favourite artists - that is why they are in my friends list - so that I do not miss any of their offerings. It does not qualify them for an inflated vote from me though.

Well I've decided the only way for me to keep my sanity (yes, I want to!) - is to post, wait until cooked, then delete. That way nothing really matters other than the image and any subsequent critiques which assist in making it better. QED

in my opinion all photos should be voted on before the name of the artist or photographer is given and before a fancy title is attached to it.. the friends list should apply after the votes are made in the voting booth and AFTER THE C SCORE IS POSTED. then the friends would see the posting on their friend's list, (friends') go to look at it, add it to favorites, download it or whatever.....and, thus create (if you want) another score. complete anonymity is the only true way for the voting booth to give objective unbiased scores

Jeenie..........you are wise to say this/anonymity would be the best.
;however, it is impossible as after awhile, one can surmise frequently who images what. I have also been told that there is no way to improve the current method of voting. And , YES, there are people who go to New Images first and then vote, if given the opportunity very poorly on someone's work or on a style they dislike. Mimi....thanks for idea and support.....&Keifer.........You have been hostile to me repeatedly and I have no doubt you would zero my work if able. Because you are a "favourite", no critcism comes your way.Actually, I think people like your witty nature and encourage you to be blunt and sarcastic. You are not reprimanded and will not be-no matter how disgusting/hurtful you are.

I appreciate Phil's feedback; he gets it!
Enfin.I note that very few people vote on a large number of people's works-preferring to visit and comment on their "friends" mostly.When was the last time you (whoever) took a look at at unknown's work, or someone's work you personally do not like (I mean the person), and comment on his/her post? I often look around and comment on a work---regardless of who created it.I also will frequently comment positively on someone's art even if I know they dislike me and never comment on mine.
I think that from now on, I am going to look around, judge a work solely on its merits and see what happens.When I visit a gallery in the real world, I do exactly this. When photos are chosen for a gallery or a magazine, absolutely no attention is given to the author, as many times the slides are submitted blind so there can be no bias.
The Treacle definitely exists. I am not going to partake and I would hope that those of you who are part of it, stop , evaluate your behaviors and be fair-no mattter the author.

...let me chime-in...

I think this topic is oversaturated....that doesnt mean i cant say anything!

I think the way things are now are just fine; if anything changes, other people will complain. You can't make everybody happy.

You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time but never all of the people all of the time - you got it Noah.

DERAIN - I find if offensive that your attitude to commenting on 'friends' work is regarded by you as something bad. perhaps you have more free time than I do - I have a job a home and a family to spend time on and viewing the type of art that I personally enjoy is the way I prefer to participate here. I see plenty of others in the VB. Your say "When was the last time you (whoever) took a look at at unknown's work, or someone's work you personally do not like (I mean the person), and comment on his/her post?" Well, that is a difficult one because there is no one here that I 'personally do not like'. However taking 'person' out of the question I frequently comment on the work of many people not on my friends list, and if you take the time to read my previous post you will see that my attitude is that personalities should play no part in the Voting Booth. Treacle is for comments, not for the VB, and personally I prefer a little sweetnes to sourness.

I'd like to weigh in on the subject if I might. I was drawn to this site by the wonderful images that I found here to use as wallpaper and haven't left yet. I enjoy the chance to upload images, but I also like the banter with other Caedes members and in the process learn about them as individuals and learn about how they put their art together, take their photos or what type of equipment they use and how they feel about different software, lenses, cameras, etc. I post images that I like personally and hope that others like them too, but I am no longer baffled by the c:index and try to remember that no matter how good I get, there will always be someone better than me and my purpose in being here is to learn what those things might be that would make me a better photographer. If one of my posts winds up on another website, then I figure, it was well liked. That isn't my only gauge though, but a strong one.

What I don't like about Caedes is the snarly, sarcasm that creeps into these threads. Someone always has to show how clever of speech they are only to cause injury to another and that makes you not want to interact with them.

And there are the newcomers who should be encouraged by us and particularly by those who have been here for a very long time. The front page of Caedes says this is a 'close' community of artist's who 'share' their work. One of the statements under Code of Conduct says we are to try and make Caedes a better place.
We are not 'close' if we take everything someone says as an attack, but we should respond if another is purposefully rude to us.

That said, I suggest that it would be difficult to submit images anonymously for voting purposes because some of us use a signature and for good reason, our images being pirated away to other places without permission. Also, some members work is very distinctive and recognizable even if anonymous.
The suggestion I would make regarding the voting is that perhaps the index not be revealed until there are at least ten votes on it and then the shock that comes of seeing the index drop 20 points in a day wouldn't be so devastating because the drop was not very noticeable.

That some members bear a prejudice against other members and vote their images down is hardly mature, but there are always going to be those people and they can deal with their own consciences, bearing in mind that 'what goes around, comes around'.
So, if we expect others to look at and vote on our images with an unjaundiced eye, then we should comment on their images and vote on them based on what we see before us on the screen and not on whose friend they are or whose 'clique' they belong to. I sincerely believe that 'EVERYONE' who posts should be required to vote on ten other images for every image they post whether they are Caedes Cadre or not. Then we would definitely have greater contribution to the voting and the 10-20 votes would add up faster and the c:index post faster and more than likely reflect a lower bias.

although i am way behind in my voting booth duty, i think that cindy's idea about everyone casting 10 votes for each upload they did is a superb idea! if i uploaded and got the message that i needed to go to the voting booth before i could have my picture posted.....be sure i would go there and vote. as for the signatures cindy mentioned....anyone who wants to do so can easily clone out a signature. so i still say that for the original upload and subsequent visit to the voting booth signatures should not be there and we should try to be anonymous. if someone needs to be a detective to figure out whose post is what, well....go for it. i guess i'm one of those folks who need validation and low c scores are devastating to me. i blame no one but my poor supersensitive non confident self for that hang up. there are times i'd like to have automatic covers on my scores so i wouldn't see them.

i, like many of you, take lots of pictures. at my (most advanced) age, hmmmmmm i am fortunate to have the desire and the means to travel. having survived two serious health issues it started out as a way to distract myself from thinking about what was really on my mind. now i'm stuck with the photography addiction!
i go through many shots deciding what to upload. sometimes they are ones i adore and sometimes when my scores on those are low i tend to change and upload what i think the audience will like.
i really do enjoy the group. we do have some very talented members. i would love to meet many of you in person.
i hate to become the bad guy when this kind of topic comes up, but i feel i must say what i think to be true. i try to be diplomatic and fair......shut your mouth, jen, and go to bed!

I thought you did have to vote before you could post already?

I would just like to mention here that I have received a pm from Derain accusing me of lying when I stated I comment on images other than those on my friends list. I am not a liar and object to being called one.
It is a shame when honest and open discussion can turn into something like this. I doubt Derain has read my previous posts in this thread.

Derain you said further back "I do not insult people" - you have just insulted me

This is his whole pm - I think it should be public and not sent to me by pm. If any one wants to see how I replied to him I am quite happy to put that here as well.
In fact on second thoughts I will, while I am still hopping mad enough to do it.


He said . . .

"And I take offense to your comment; I am sure you would not say this to Keifer. If anyone deserves it, he does. I also do not believe you saying you frequently vote on others' works if you do not have them for a friend. You used to comment on my work.You stopped-likely after i wrote Fogz and she chose to ignore a perfectly innocent question. I suspect you are aware you are part of the Treacle Phil termed correctly."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I said . . . .

Keifer has never offended me so you are correct in what you say.
Whether you believe what I say is of litle interest to me but as you can not be aware of how many I have on my friends list you have no basis for your belief. Quickly looking at my User Information I can see that I have made at least 20 comments to people NOT on my friends list on the first page, and as not all of them bother to respond there are likely more.
As I have no personal contact with Fogz other than what is publicly visible I have no idea what you are referring to about your correspondence with her. I could equally say you used to comment on my images also. Did you stop for any reason?

I am not used to being called a liar, because I am not one.

If by "Treacle" you are accusing me of voting unfairly I would ask you to retract that accusation. If it is a reference to the way I comment - then tough luck, I comment as I see fit and you should have no worries as, as you have already stated, I have not commented on yours for some time.

My conscience is quite clear - I vote fairly and I endeavour not to hurt the feelings of artists who have submitted a picture, by my comments.

I would prefer not to continue this discussion with you as I can not see it serving any purpose.
Eve
---------------------------------------------------

...oh boy, by putting that out you just dumped some gasoline into the fire.

Its good to see that someone had the guts to show just what goes on behind closed doors..

Now this is just the thing we should be working toward avoiding...finding fault with one another. Words can be like knives and once said, not easily retracted and even if retracted, not always forgotten.

I'm going to share some of the PM's that i have in my Jobs right now:

Alain .. All you do is cry about how YOU are targeted and persecuted .. and you fling unfounded accusations around at everybody ... further proof that you see assassins in the shadows

I have stopped posting my works here .. but I don't post monologues about conspiracies .. it would only make me look bad .. as it does you

Time for introspection, self examination and a view toward mutual respect.

Those who are committing the crap do not like to be exposed and usually resort to posting pap.....real classy, LynEve........I am sure other members of the Treacle will support you as I see you have decided to issue a PM in the name of geting your cohorts to rally around you. BTW, do you know the meaning of Treacle? Believe me, it applies to your work...... and Keifer, thanks for not posting anymore of that stuff...You are the biggest offender of all........another member of the Treacle and the class clown

don't get your panties in a bunch

Derain, I have no 'cohorts'. Perhaps I have people who like my work which obviously does not include you, but you are welcome to comment on it through the proper channels, which is not here.

Cynlee, I am sorry , I have exercised respect for all members here and have received the same, until now, but I can not respect anyone who makes such blatant unfounded accusations as those that have been directed at me.
Time to leave I think.

EVE!!! Don't you leave because of one person..

I for one don't have a friends list anymore.. simply because there are so many fantastic artists on here new and old, whose works I enjoy.. but there were so many I couldnt comment on all of them.. so now i just browse through the new images that way I dont miss any new members as well as in the voting booth..

Pardon me... I've been staying out of this one. however.

"LynEve........I am sure other members of the Treacle will support you as I see you have decided to issue a PM in the name of geting your cohorts to rally around you. BTW, do you know the meaning of Treacle? Believe me, it applies to your work"

And you objected to others having a bad opinion of YOUR work and expressing it? I don't care how superb you think your work is. It does not give you the right to insult another's.

and if you want an insult in the manner of the direct truth that therefore must not be an insult as you so claim. here it is: I really wonder why you feel it necessary to fulfill the stereotype of French Artiste to the hilt.

Also... as Lyn is clearly not one of your friends, you had no right to expect she would keep the pm you sent to her to herself. If you did, that was the 1st step in your misjudgement in sending it to her.

Sorry everyone... I got my panties in a bunch... call it PMS...

Agree with Cat here. It's extrremely hypocritical to be so sensetive about criticism of your own work and then to make a detrimental generalisation about someone elses entire gallery based, I suspect, on personal feelings rather than an artistic standpoint. But then what should we expect from someone so deluded as to believe that other members could actually be bothered to go to so much trouble just to give their images a low rating?

Such people aren't worth bothering with.

You know I think this is so sad that this discussion has turned into this..

Every artist has their style and not everyone will like it.. but to insult an artists work is low it not only hurts the artist that is in the firing line, but also the community as well as yourself...

Art is that individuals personal creativity, each piece of work is a part of that person, if its a piece of work you don't like thats fine, and i'm sure constructive criticism would be happily accepted as its a great learning tool.. but to attack someone for creating something that doesnt appeal to your paticular taste is very cruel and unfair..

I'm sorry that people and the site seem to have let you down Alain, but this is not the way (being insulting and aggressive) to work out the problems..

OMG @ Jac as the voice of reason. *falls over in a dead faint*

*raises head to mention I totally agree w/her*

*goes back to faint*

please, will someone redefine the word "treacle". in the beginning weren't we talking about voting and the kind of pressure the c-scores give? how did we move to the personal attack zone?

treacle

and Sam, I forgot to mention that no, Cadre members don't have to vote before posting, and

and Cynlee I like the idea of waiting for 10 or so votes before posting the c-index score so that there's a more weighted average to begin with.

*sigh... yes Cat I surprise myself sometimes too.... lmao..

Jeenie.. like every thread that even has a hint of the "V" or "C" words it twists its deadly tentacles around it and turns it into the usual heated argument where egos get hurt and deflated..

maybe that's not such a bad thing...not hurt, but deflated.

what's treacle?

click cat's link

A medicinal compound formerly used as an antidote for poison.

This thread is ready for the "Elephant Graveyard", I think :-/

..i was going to say that, but i didn't want to jump the gun.

jump the ...gun? very punny, noah ;-)

Treacle also applies in the common vernacular to saccharine-sweet concoction; that is the sense used by myself.
It is apparent there are many who are not ever going to acknowledge that over-rating/voting for friends happens; likewise, there are many who punish another member by under-voting. It does occur-no matter the (seeming) denial.
As for my aggression and insulting..many here have done the same and cover it by so-called diplomatic language. See many of above comments. And........Keifer.I note you not deny you did what I accuse you of. Looks as though I am the easier target.

no Alain, Keith (keifer) and I had somewhat of a misunderstanding when I first got here. and even then, it wasn't (as I saw it) based on targeting or unfairness. since you feel that SO many people dislike you and your work (which would be because of your behavior here in the forums than anything else) perhaps another site might be more to your liking. or... you can re-think your position, and be more open minded, and stop singling out members for attacks in the forums...

you've painted it on your chest yourself .. but the colors are beginning to run

...adults.

I vote we move the argument to a new thread and leave this one to it's original worthy topic.

LOL @ noah... howzit feel, huh? huh?

Cat, you're overruled.. go play with a water balloon..or.. oh look *jangles shiny keys* :P

I asked to Caedes for stopping this thread.