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AP review of the Fuji S5 vs. Nikon D200

&philcUK
04/28/07 10:17 AM GMT
Did anyone else read the Amateur Photographer magazine review this week pitching the two ‘sister’ cams? I know reviewers are typically more pro Nikon due to their historical generosity with freebies but this is normally reserved to Canon/Nikon comparisons.

In this review the Fuji matched the Nikon blow for blow in the technology stakes as you would expect – the problem came with the image comparisons. Even taking into consideration the fact that the images were printed on the usual magazine recycled rough stock, the Fuji sensor was visually leagues ahead of the Nikon for detail capture and noise reduction across the entire ISO range. In higher ISO’s in particular the Nikon images looked very smudgy and undefined whereas the Fuji still had very recognisable and crisp detailing. Only one instance showed the Nikon in a positive light and that was a colour test where the Fuji’s increased dynamic range and vibrancy tended to wash out detail slightly in vivid reds.

Despite all this – the magazine concluded that the Nikon was the superior camera for image capture. Canon/Nikon tests tend to be a little more subjective so you take them with a pinch of salt but in this case the differences were huge and beyond doubt. It seriously brings into question the objectivity of reviewers like this; I had always put far more trust in AP reviews over say the online DP reviews that do tend to side a little with whoever is the most generous PR department.
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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do

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&trisbert
04/29/07 4:09 PM GMT
I haven’t seen that one. However I have seen another comparison, which might interest you. It’s a 3 part comparison with only the first finished so far. Nikon D200 vs. Fuji S5 review
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There are three colours, Ten digits and seven notes, its what we do with them that’s important. Ruth Ross
&trisbert
04/29/07 4:16 PM GMT
As for the biased review you read. Well I don’t think that there are many impartial reviewers in the magazine industry. There is just a difference in the degree of sucking up. If you want impartial views you would probably be better off looking to the pro photographer forums.
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There are three colours, Ten digits and seven notes, its what we do with them that’s important. Ruth Ross
&philcUK
04/29/07 4:17 PM GMT
another annoyance with the AP review was the fact that the third camera in the group test was a Canon 5D which never really figured in the whole article save for the result where it came in first. I would have preferred to see the test include the Sigma SD14 instead of the 5D as it is much more of an unknown quantity and closer to the others in price than the Canon.
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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
&trisbert
04/29/07 4:26 PM GMT
I think the Sigma is using a very similar sensor to the one in the Fuji. If that is the case then a comparison of those the Sigma and the Fuji would make a lot of sense.

I saw photos from the Sigma taken under studio lights last week. They were getting the best skin tones I have ever seen straight from the camera. The sharpness was extremely good too.
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There are three colours, Ten digits and seven notes, its what we do with them that’s important. Ruth Ross
&philcUK
04/29/07 6:15 PM GMT
Not many independent reviews of the sigma about – some useful user inputs though – like these two sample shots taken with the same sigma lens and a Sigma SD14 body vs. a Nikon D2XS body. The Sigma puts up a good result against the Nikon and certainly seems able to capture vibrant colour better, the Nikon resolves finer detail better – it’s only marginal but still noticeable. Then again – the Nikon costs almost 300% more :-)
0∈ [?]
A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
.noahnott
04/29/07 8:19 PM GMT
Just wondering, are those JPG or RAW conversions? It's unfair to compare JPG files b/c different cameras perform different in-camera post processing. Nikon, i think, keeps NR to a minimum so detail doesn't suffer (then you go and use something like NeatImage). For color, if you're comparing JPGs, not much help there since some cameras ramp up the saturation a bit more than others.
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&philcUK
04/29/07 8:28 PM GMT
RAW files Noah. The Sigma is pretty much preset trickery free - the foveon sensors are famed for their colour capabilities.

**edit ** oops - just rechecked - those planes are shot in factory preset jpeg modes with no post work on either
0∈ [?]
A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
.noahnott
04/29/07 10:14 PM GMT
JPG = misleading test results. =P
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&philcUK
04/29/07 10:33 PM GMT
not so misleading if the camera doesnt do any processing work on the files.

It's tough when you find out someone makes a better camera than yours - but seeing as you are a dyed in the wool Nikon user - you'd better get used to that feeling :-)
0∈ [?]
A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
.noahnott
04/29/07 11:32 PM GMT
*ahem!* SHHHHH!! ;-)
(and now moving onwards...)

-Lumix DMC-L1 vs 30D, JPG - 30D looks sharper/better all round.
-Lumix DMC-L1 vs le/les/la/li/lo/lu 30D, RAW - POW! DMC-L1 looks similar if not better than then 30D (on some of the zoomed in bits).

...same could go for the D200 vs S5 vs SD14.

The S5 is focused towards portraits; other than that, 6mp is not going to get all those little tiny blades of grass sticking out of the ground...that's when you say hello to moire. =P (*not based on an image test btw...i made it up*)

Anyways, factory presets on different cameras are...well...different. Some put them on 'vivid/sharp' and and on others it's on 'boring/normal' as defaults. Of course you're going to say the one that cranks up the saturation + sharpens has better color and, maybe, detail!

I will admit that the S5 has better flesh tones and greater dynamic range....and less noise. But it's a portrait camera and a...ummmm...aaaaa...yeah.

PS: I'll look for a RAW vs RAW comparison sometime tonight (if i get time). I have a bit a hmwk to do in the time being.
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&philcUK
04/29/07 11:39 PM GMT
having seen the results from the SD14 so far I'd imagine it would hand the D200's ass to it on a plate - the S5 vs. D200 is a much closer run thing. you're right - the S5 like the S3 is primarily a good portrait jobbie which is why it definitely has become a weapon of choice for wedding photographers everywhere.

** still confused why photo hacks think better flesh tones, greater dynamic range and less noise is a bad thing..**
0∈ [?]
A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
.noahnott
04/29/07 11:53 PM GMT
...Photo hacks. :D Lol. Anyways, those things you listed off are good things, it just isn't what i really was looking for. It's kindof like saying the 30D has less noise than the D200; but, on the other hand, *fill in the blank*.

I haven't looked into the SD14's reviews yet...actually.
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&philcUK
04/29/07 11:56 PM GMT
Nikon henchman Ken Rockwell agrees:

'The Fuji S5 excels at skin tones. It has the best out-of-the-box skin tones I've ever seen, over a broad range of conditions. It just looks good regardless of the lighting conditions. People look great, and that's what matters in people photography. The Fuji S5 excels for wedding and portrait photographers.'

'If you're photographing people and prefer this color rendition as I do, read no further: get an S5. The photos just look better than anything I can get repeatedly with my Nikons or Canons.'

however, like the Canon 5D - it's slow(ish) speed prohibits it's use outside of the portraiture field.
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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
&philcUK
04/30/07 12:39 AM GMT
BTW - the hacks bit refers to the UK slang term for journalists - I'm guessing it may get lost in translation :-) despite all that - it's always good to get an open license to push Noah's buttons - especially when you know he's just acquired a new Nik D200 :-)
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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
&philcUK
04/30/07 12:45 AM GMT
more button pushing....

'Nikon, i think, keeps NR to a minimum so detail doesn't suffer ' yes I'd heard that was the latest spin from Nikon PR on their noisy sensors - it's a little more plausible than previous excuses for the D200's sensor though...

the first one was that it was infact a fault with the Sony technology and that the approved Nikon workaround for this was to print smaller/darker photos. nice.

the next rationale was that the noise was a deliberate feature to simulate film.

and now we have the detail preservation scenario. sweepstakes on the next chapter from 'The Nikon Big Book of Excuses' ® ?
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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
&trisbert
04/30/07 12:58 AM GMT
Our sensors are like that by design, it makes people better photographers because they have to learn techniques that emphasise image quality.
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There are three colours, Ten digits and seven notes, its what we do with them that’s important. Ruth Ross
&philcUK
04/30/07 1:27 PM GMT
i think you should register that one pronto.....
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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
&trisbert
04/30/07 1:45 PM GMT
Would I get royalties :-)
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There are three colours, Ten digits and seven notes, its what we do with them that’s important. Ruth Ross
.noahnott
04/30/07 3:21 PM GMT
lol...i'll be in the offtopics....
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::Benroy
05/02/07 12:07 AM GMT
Haven't got my hands on that copy but I have had my doubts on the impartialilty of a few reviews in AP recently.
They compared the Canon 400D and Nikon D40 recently. The Canon was listed with a body only price of £649.99, a month later I bought mine (including the £50 cash back offer) for £387. I'm hoping it's not going to continue at that rate of depreciation, by christmas they'll be giving them away!!!!
Interestingly there has been a change of editor a few months back! What were the list prices for the Fuji and Nikon in that review phil?
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"The secret of creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." Albert Einstein.
+ppigeon
05/02/07 6:21 AM GMT
Ben: I'm hoping it's going to continue at that rate of depreciation AND I'm waiting Christmas ;-)
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-Pierre-
&philcUK
05/02/07 7:52 AM GMT
Yes Ben the listed prices in the magazine review are way higher than the actual store prices - they list the Fuji as being £1249 although every retailer I looked at had the body only price at least £250 cheaper than that. The Nikon is listed by AP as £1099 but average store price is more like £850.
0∈ [?]
A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
::Benroy
05/02/07 10:04 PM GMT
Lol, maybe I should have waited until Christmas!
Generally all the magazine reviews seem to have this marked up price, I have no idea where they get these figures from though. The 400d was certainly an extreme example, the D40 had a kit price of £450 about £100 more than it was available for.
To me, it comes across as "Go for the Nikon, you can't even afford the Canon!"
0∈ [?]
"The secret of creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." Albert Einstein.
&philcUK
05/11/07 6:39 PM GMT
This weeks issue of AP seams to continue the Nikon buy out/sell out theme to an even more obvious degree with a completely nonsensical revue of the Sigma SD14. Managed to completely miss the point – again – and just kept banging on about the lack of image presets and complex in camera trickery to try and compensate for a sensors shortcomings whilst apparently taking sample shots with their eyes closed. Time to start saving myself a couple of quid a week.
0∈ [?]
A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
.professor05
05/11/07 9:27 PM GMT
I don't know how this Fuji S5 camera works, but I'm more than happy with my D200. It serves me well, I don't complain.. :))))
As the saying goes, "If you're a tripod picture taking guy, use Canon, but for everything else, use Nikon" ... Lol
Serge
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MySelf: http://u.foto.radikal.ru/0705/06/561e07e941fd.jpg
::Benroy
05/11/07 9:49 PM GMT
I picked up a copy this week, aswell as a copy of Digital Camera magazine which also had a review of the SD14. I agree AP missed the point, only managing just over a paragraph on the sensor itself. The Digital Camera review went into a lot more detail and they were clearly impressed with the technology behind the sensor and where it can lead.
AP is usually the first to point out the difference in image quality between film and digital. Along comes a piece of technology that starts to bridge the gap and not a word on the subject, interesting?!?!?!
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"The secret of creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." Albert Einstein.
.noahnott
05/11/07 10:20 PM GMT
""If you're a tripod picture taking guy, use Canon, but for everything else, use Nikon" - i thought it was the other way around. Canon's have better high ISO performance vs nikon where you're stuck at ISO 800ish b4 you have to attach it to a tripod. =P
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&philcUK
05/12/07 6:44 AM GMT
I think the whole Canon/Nikon thing has reached a bit of an impasse now. For sure Nikon have finally caught up with Canon quality wise in the consumer level SLR field but it has taken them a long time and judging by the amount of high end tech they are having to throw at it to achieve this parity, I'm curious as to what their profit margins have been slashed to. The ludicrous initial launch price of the D40 replacement is kind of testament to that.

You kind of get the feeling that they have missed the boat slightly on that one. The D2Xs hold's its own against Canon's high end gear - but only just, better than a 5D but much more expensive, nearly at 1DS levels but much cheaper so you take your pick. Canon's generally seem to have better ISO performance across the board although, as has been discussed - Nikons press machine dismiss this as a deliberate ploy to replicate film/increase quality capture etc on their part.

The annoying thing as Ben pointed out is the whole attitude of sticking the head in the sand when it comes to reviewing new and alternate technology. It may not be as good as Nikon or Canon in some respects but the point is it is different and may ultimately force the big two to start expanding their development to create revolutionary cameras rather than evolutionary ones.
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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
::Benroy
05/14/07 11:38 PM GMT
Having just bought my first entry level DSLR it's was quite an interesting situation choosing which one to go for. Once the big step has been taken it's hard to get away from the manufacturer of the camera you've chosen without a big hassle and expense later on. It must be a multi-million/billion dollar market getting people to invest into your system.

After much thought I eventually went for the Canon 400D and what probably clinched it was the dust removal system (on top of the vast range of lenses and extras/updates available). In the competetive market of entry level DSLR's, little extras like this go a long way in persuadiing someone to buy your model. All the "other" manufacturers are offering, not only a dust removal system, but image stabilisation and in some cases a high dynamic range mode.

What's interesting is the big two didn't come up with this technology first (or did they?). Canon followed suit with a dust removal system, where as Nikon sneaked in with the cheapest DSLR available. You'd think that because Canon and Nikon have the biggest budgets they could invest in this revolutionary technology and virtually kill the market.
I certainly take my hat of to the likes of Sigma, Fuji, Sony, Olympus and Pentax for pushing things forward. I'm certainly interested to hear anyone else's thoughts on why they bought a ceratin entry level DSLR over another............
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"The secret of creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." Albert Einstein.
&trisbert
05/15/07 6:53 AM GMT
When I got my 300D it was the only entry level DSLR. That made the choice easy eh :-)
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There are three colours, Ten digits and seven notes, its what we do with them that’s important. Ruth Ross
&philcUK
05/15/07 11:40 AM GMT
Same here really - I didn’t get the 300 but went for the 350 when it came out shortly after. They had a good marketing campaign with them and got rave reviews both from the press and users too so yes - an easy choice at the time. I think a lot of people still choose the Rebels as they have such a monumental sales record that it is automatically viewed as a trusted product. Much more difficult these days to choose although the consumer level DSLR market is starting to shrink a little as most people who want one already have one. Most market analysts point to next year as being the drop off point in sales so then maybe manufacturers will focus on more innovative products released - hopefully - with much longer shelf lives.
0∈ [?]
A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
&trisbert
05/15/07 4:36 PM GMT
Agreed Phil, many people I know are choosing the 400D because they see it as a bargain in comparison to the 30D. After all 10 megs sounds better than 8 megs and its got the sensor dust shaker thing too. They aren’t enough to make me trade the 300D though. The two things I really want are:

1, A big bright viewfinder with a 100% view, without a 1D price tag.

2, Mirror lock up on the mode dial so it’s nice and handy to get at.

These are things that most SLRs had twenty-five years ago and they will make my photography easier than more megabytes or electronic dust shakers can.
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There are three colours, Ten digits and seven notes, its what we do with them that’s important. Ruth Ross
::Benroy
05/18/07 12:16 AM GMT
I've got to agree with you Phil about the 350D's reputation. It was even one of the factors that influenced me purchasing the 400D. Strangely, today I heard an advertisement on the radio for the 400D, certainly the first time i've heard a particular camera adverstised through radio. The marketing dept. suddenly got an increase in budget this year:)

Upgrading from, basically an SLR styled compact, the panasonic FZ30. The difference in view finders is already unreal to me. Is that electrical versus optical? Lol! See what you mean about mirror lock up. I'm not at a level to worry about that too much yet, so it's probably why mine is; Menu, 5 tabs along, 3 down and 7 across. Not what you'd class as handy!
0∈ [?]
"The secret of creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." Albert Einstein.

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