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Discussion Board -> Non-art Website Issues -> Why is it?

Why is it?

::DigiCamMan
07/21/07 7:31 PM GMT
Why is it that lately all my pics start out with a bang and sit there for awhile and all of a sudden they drop 10-20 points? Is this happening to anyone else? What's the deal...are the last few voters hammering the pics. Is Zero at work? They rarely ever go up but go down by at least 10 points on the last couple of votes. Let's do away with the c-index and do a critique box and score the pics there. Don't want your name known in the vote? Don't want to be accountable for your vote? Then just leave a comment and don't vote. Otherwise critique the pic and make your vote known.
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus ........ My Gallery

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::LynEve
07/22/07 12:50 AM GMT
*Is this happening to anyone else?*
In a nutshell - Yes, often.

I don't mind them going down, in many cases the drop is justified. However,I do not like them plummeting by as much as 20 points when only one extra vote has been (visibly) made.

Why is it?
Indeed, why?

I am repeating myself (again) by saying I think a larger number of votes being allowed to accumulate on each image would give a more fairly balanced result.
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The question is not what you look at, but what you see ~ Marcel Proust
.purmusic
07/22/07 1:24 AM GMT
Ok, to clarify ... the adjustments, as far as I know and have noticed ... are made at 8:30 a.m. EST.

So, not sure if one vote is responsible for the reported drops. And not sure, how often the tally in our Caedes Control Panel, indicating the number of votes ... is correlated to the adjustments made in the a.m..

I suspect ... think ... based on what I have read, insofar as postings and comments go ... that they are not in sync. I repeat, not in sync.

You may have 14 votes, and an adjusted score from that morning.

The full 14 votes may ... or may not, as I am lead to believe have been taken into account in the scoring. The C-Index that you are noting in your Control Panel, may in fact only be based on 10 ... not 14.

And then, the following day ... another adjustment.

If more votes have been cast since that time ... they may not factor in till the next adjustment period.

I would suggest waiting ... until the votes have been tallied, and the total number of votes has leveled and not changed for a period ... and then adjusted ... before considering that one or two may have tanked an image of yours.

I don't say this to be insulting to your collective intelligences, but you are making assumptions ... as am I, to an extent ... about the impact of a few votes that is not true.

There is a lag between votes cast, total number showing that is ... and then the score produced and adjusted in the a.m..
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"Sometimes me think what is love, and then me think love is what last cookie is for. Me give up the last cookie for you." - Cookie Monster
::jeenie11
07/22/07 2:13 AM GMT
i would like to watch a photograph go through the entire process showing each vote and each adjustment with the mods making whatever decision they make. i would like for everyone to get to see exactly what happens....step by step. the voters names would not have to be given but the number of tens, nines, eights, and so forth would be visible to all (this could be shown after every round in the voting booth. taking a leap i'd put up an image for what might be an interesting (even though possibly devastating) experience. opinions, please!
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sorry if i don't comment on each of your pictures. to those of you who comment so often, i can't imagine how you get it done! Please Visit My Gallery
::LynEve
07/22/07 5:00 AM GMT
I have had explained to me before the time lag and the other considerations that are factored in to the c-index totals, and am still a tad confused.
Most images fluctuate up or down on a daily basis and that is to be expected.
I did not mean to make assumptions, just stating what I have experienced. There has never, on any of my pictures, been a giant leap UP which would perhaps occassionally be expected taking into consideration the giant leaps DOWN that occur. They do often increase, yes, but not by the same large difference as the downward tally can.
All I can say is I check scores at approximately the same time each day and have seen a picture showing 16 votes decrease its score by 20 points with 17 votes showing exactly 24 hours later. Just an observation.
Would I be upset at a swing in the opposite direction ? Probably not, human nature being what it is. :)
Contrary to some opinions, I am, after all, a human lol
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The question is not what you look at, but what you see ~ Marcel Proust
::bean811
07/22/07 6:37 AM GMT
Has anyone else experienced scores changing (mostly in the downward fashion) without accumulating any more votes? That's happened to me a number of times. I also had a shot go from a 91 to 74 overnight!! Although I thought I was losing my mind about the 91, I was still a bit disappointed it dropped off the face of the earth overnight.

Also, what about dropping the highest and lowest scores from the calculation? A rogue 10 or 1 (or god forbid a 0), if eliminated, would give you a more accurate representation on how the majority voted on your image. That way, if you have an outstanding image that gathers 16 8's and 9's and one 0, that 0 obviously lies outside the range of the entire sample and would be eliminated. Alternatively, if you post something more suited for the trash can, a stray 9 would be eliminated from the rest of the pack. That could essentially be done by increasing the number of votes, but I have no idea how feasible that is...
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As a wise man once said, "Wherever you go, there you are."
&philcUK
07/22/07 10:54 AM GMT
it has already been explained on many occasions that the number of votes on the control panel update almost instantly whereas the C-Index is calculated much slower than that - only updated every 24 hours or so. as more votes come in, a more balanced score is hopefully achieved that better reflects the image quality. dropping 20 points 'overnight' on the strength of one vote doesnt occur - its a calculation of the all the votes for the previous 24 hours.

newly uploaded images often appear in the VB quite swiftly so maybe voted on initially by friends who have been notified of its uploading via message and who, chances are, probably give it a more than generous score than a casual broser might later on.
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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
::J_272004
07/22/07 11:26 AM GMT
"step by step. the voters names would not have to be given but the number of tens, nines, eights, and so forth would be visible to all (this could be shown after every round in the voting booth."

If my memory is working i'm pretty sure a long time ago we had that, people could see how many 8's 7's etc that had been given to that image.. it still didnt stop the complaints in fact if i remember rightly it was an all out brawl in some threads.. therefore it was taken away...

Am I right Phil or was i dreaming.. lol..
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MY GALLERY ........... "Live one day at a time and make it a masterpiece"
&philcUK
07/22/07 11:37 AM GMT
yes there was a bar chart showing the spread of votes and yes you are also correct - it was dropped as it frequently lead to full on flame wars.
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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
::Hottrockin
07/22/07 11:40 AM GMT
~Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz~
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Why do the pictures come out square when the lens is round?? Picture Purrrfect .
&KEIFER
07/22/07 11:58 AM GMT
the infamous "dist" button
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::LynEve
07/22/07 12:06 AM GMT
"newly uploaded images often appear in the VB quite swiftly so maybe voted on initially by friends who have been notified of its uploading via message and who, chances are, probably give it a more than generous score than a casual broser might later on."

If this happens it is NOT RIGHT - in fact it is dishonest and unfair, not least to the owner of the image.
It suggests that members are sitting with their finger on the button ready to vote dishonestly highly on images of friends.


I can not see how it happens though - don't images appear randomly in the VB, with an upper limit, to prevent this very thing happening?
Very often I can vote on image limit and never recognise the author of a single one.

Phil, When you say "been notified of its uploading via message" do you mean via friends list or something more sinister as in messaging someone telling them to look out for a certain picture? Are folk really that devious?

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The question is not what you look at, but what you see ~ Marcel Proust
&philcUK
07/22/07 12:07 AM GMT
no - sorry - i meant the friends list notifications.
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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
::J_272004
07/22/07 12:08 AM GMT
wow I thought that thread was a distant memory =PPP
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MY GALLERY ........... "Live one day at a time and make it a masterpiece"
::DigiCamMan
07/22/07 4:06 PM GMT
If you look there are only a hundred or so who do any real voting and out of that only about 25 who do most of the voting. If your friends are among them they are probably the ones nailing you. Makes sense to me anyway. The fact remains that near the end of a pictures voting life someone is hammering them big time. I still think the critique box (with your name...just as comments) is very viable. Just critique the pic and leave a score 1-10. I Have seen this on other sites and it seems to work. At least cheaters have to post their name or move on to some other crime.
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus ........ My Gallery
&philcUK
07/22/07 4:23 PM GMT
votes cast towards the end of its 'voting life' would have an even smaller impact on the score than the inital hit as the sample average is larger. a drop of say 20 points overall on an image that is somewhat overinflated in the high eighties/nineties isnt really an attack - id say its just things finding a natural balance. dropping 40, 50 or even 60 points would be another matter entirely.
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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
+tbob
07/22/07 4:44 PM GMT
Yea that happens to me too,but rather than doing away with the C-index I propose we do away with everyone's pictures but mine.This way everyone will be forced to look at my stuff.
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::DigiCamMan
07/22/07 5:02 PM GMT
With all the clamor over the c-index that may happen. I have considered just that. But then I bring myself back to reality...it is just a wallpaper site. I just hope I can keep bringing myself back to that reality.
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus ........ My Gallery
+tbob
07/22/07 5:15 PM GMT
To be honest I pretty much just ignore the C-index as a gauge for my pics.
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::DigiCamMan
07/22/07 5:29 PM GMT
That's easy said. I try to but I do use it as a gauge. This wasn't much of a problem in the past (pics dropping 10-20 points) it seems to be a fairly new phenomenon.
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus ........ My Gallery
::jeenie11
07/22/07 5:58 PM GMT
sorry if this sounds silly BUT are the C-scores based on votes ONLY!
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sorry if i don't comment on each of your pictures. to those of you who comment so often, i can't imagine how you get it done! Please Visit My Gallery
&philcUK
07/22/07 6:13 PM GMT
yes
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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
::Hottrockin
07/22/07 9:20 PM GMT
~Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz~

(farts)

(rolls over)

~Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz~
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Why do the pictures come out square when the lens is round?? Picture Purrrfect .
::DigiCamMan
07/23/07 1:49 AM GMT
I'll bet Rudy watches the c-index like the racing forms and weeps bitterly when he loses in either one.
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus ........ My Gallery
::LynEve
07/23/07 5:34 AM GMT
I never knew the c-index was based on votes only, I always thought there was a formula of some sort bringing in other factors. I am sure I read that somewhere.
Must be going dotty in my dotage. :)
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The question is not what you look at, but what you see ~ Marcel Proust
::DigiCamMan
07/23/07 7:23 AM GMT
So basically the c-index is fictitious and only based on a few votes. Good...let's do away with it and do the scoring critique box.
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus ........ My Gallery
&philcUK
07/23/07 7:50 AM GMT
i could be wrong on that Lyn - there is more information elsewhere on the site explaining the voting system in more detail. I'm not sure where 'c-index is fictitious and only based on a few votes' comes from as neither is a factually correct statement. it doesn't really matter what system you use - when there are fragile egos to be bruised there will always be dissent and aggravation as has been seen here in the past with different styles of voting.
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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
+Samatar
07/23/07 7:56 AM GMT
The c-index is now based on voting only. It used to be based on other factors as well before the random booth was introduced.

Anyone who thinks the voting system is going to change now is deluding themselves I think. The site owner has clearly decided he is happy with it. If there are so many people who can design a site better than caedes I don't understand why they keep hanging around here...
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion- rescope.com.au
::DigiCamMan
07/23/07 7:58 AM GMT
Because we paid good money to be here and help the site to keep going. Therefor we should have some input. With out us you have no site.
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus ........ My Gallery
+Samatar
07/23/07 8:19 AM GMT
No, without caedes we have no site. If you want to DONATE money, that's entirely optional. I have donated some money to the site, and plenty of my time and energy, but I don't expect that goves me the right to dictate how the site should be run nor does it give me the right to claim that I know better than the person who runs it.

The reason this site is so successful is because of the way it is run. Simple as that. People should feel free to make suggestions, sure, but once they have made that suggestion they should move on rather than insisting that their way must be better...
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion- rescope.com.au
::DigiCamMan
07/23/07 8:31 AM GMT
Well if it means so little I doubt I will DONATE anymore.
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus ........ My Gallery
::third_eye
07/23/07 6:36 PM GMT
Being away from something can often be the best way to ponder it. I happened to wander the site last week (I think) and came across a short blurb on how the site came to be. This is Geri's hobby

While noone, including myself (Lord knows I've stated as much) likes to have images handed a low score, or just in general, not well received, perhaps we (yes, we) need to reconsider it's value.

Let's say the site crashed, or was discontinued. We all migrate over to "blahblahblah.com". Will any of us be any better (or worse) at what we do if our work is better (or worse) received there? I'm guessing not.

I'd like to think at least some of my work is good enough to market and sell, as that's what I'd eventually like to do. Will I continue to go apes**t if it receives lowscores? Hopefully not.

Ok, I'm done. Take from that what you will.
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::DigiCamMan
07/24/07 1:26 AM GMT
I appreciate your honesty. I think most of us are affected to some degree by the scores we receive. I hate it when one I think is good bombs and one I wonder why I even posted it scores big. Anyone that says they don't pay attention to the c-index is on drugs or really isn't into photography or art all that much. Sorry Sam for coming across a little harsh.
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus ........ My Gallery
::Hottrockin
07/24/07 1:44 AM GMT
Hehehe... YOU said "I" six (6) times there within 4 sentences!!

Peace to "I"!! (that means you)
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Why do the pictures come out square when the lens is round?? Picture Purrrfect .
::DigiCamMan
07/24/07 2:12 AM GMT
That's cuz I was speaking in the first person Rudy. I was splainin something I needed to get my point across I guess so that's why there are so many I's. I think.
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus ........ My Gallery
::J_272004
07/24/07 2:36 AM GMT
*sigh.. guess i'm on drugs and not into art or photography... guess that means I cant see out of one eye and blind in the other... which is strange considering I sell my work and people buy them.. but hey who am I to argue... *hey baby big ears got anymore of those nice little blue things* hehehehe
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MY GALLERY ........... "Live one day at a time and make it a masterpiece"
::DigiCamMan
07/24/07 3:23 AM GMT
So what kinda drugs you on?
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus ........ My Gallery
::J_272004
07/24/07 3:28 AM GMT
lol... obviously the ones that make me blind in one eye and can't see out of the other..
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MY GALLERY ........... "Live one day at a time and make it a masterpiece"
+Samatar
07/24/07 3:37 AM GMT
"This is Geri's hobby"

I think that hits the nail on the head.

My own view is that the more pleasant I try to make it for him to enjoy his hobby, the more time he'll spend on it and the more we all benefit. Having to justify the way you run things or argue with people is more likely to make you spend less time on your hobby I think. We should all feel free to offer advice etc., my point is that people have perhaps been offering advice for a bit too long and too strongly on this particular topic. No doubt it will crop up again before too long but perhaps the regulars could help by not getting too involved.
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion- rescope.com.au
::DigiCamMan
07/24/07 3:58 AM GMT
Well I was just offering another idea...I can't make anyone do anything. If I could you would all be Christians :-)
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus ........ My Gallery
::LynEve
07/24/07 5:34 AM GMT
Perhaps if I ever reach the stage of selling my work ( which is when you will see pigs flying, flying everywhere) the c-index will cease to have any meaning for me.

I do not have the stamina for these 'debates' any more.

I will leave it to the 'regulars'

Take care everyone and 'dont sweat the small stuff'

:)
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The question is not what you look at, but what you see ~ Marcel Proust
::solita17
07/25/07 11:25 PM GMT
(deleted)

you know what, gang... fork it... "She'll just have to learn to live with disappointment!" The American President



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"If I dream I shall be real, or really myself..." Robert Penn Warren
::solita17
07/25/07 11:30 PM GMT
(deleted)
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"If I dream I shall be real, or really myself..." Robert Penn Warren
::cynlee
07/26/07 12:54 AM GMT
Too few people voting and too many of the same people doing most of the voting.
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You will be led to the knowledge of the internal things which are invisible to you, by the external things which you see before you. . . . Even so then, we can represent to ourselves in thought the Author of all that is, by contemplating and admiring the (visible) things which He has made, and ever brings into being. - Hermes
::DigiCamMan
07/26/07 4:47 PM GMT
Les mentioned that the scores seem to drop when the "general population" votes. Well the "general population" doesn't seem to vote all that much and it would be even less if the non paying members didn't have to vote to upload. It's true that around 25 people, give or take, do all the voting. And why do the scores drop far more than they increase when the "general population" does vote? Maybe they just don't care and hurry through the process. I think what's going on is that we expect honest critiques and most don't want to do that or don't feel qualified to do that. Instead they vote on the "wow" factor alone. It is in fact a wallpaper site and not a photo site...I know this and still get upset...the real problem is mine...I need to go to the black board and write "this is only a wallpaper site" 500 times.
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus ........ My Gallery
&philcUK
07/26/07 7:54 PM GMT
I’m guessing by the 25 you mean people in the most active list with votes over 100, they however only account for just over half of the votes in the most active list. It is just as likely that many of these high vote counts fall into the same quantity versus quality zone as the rest of the 'general population'.

clearly more people need to vote more often but this will invariably lead to more variation & fluctuation in 'expected' scores as the variation in tastes and critique strengths makes its presence felt. You will only get a stable one off score if a very small sample of people are allowed to vote on a particular image and, clearly, nobody wants to go down that route.
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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
::DigiCamMan
07/26/07 10:54 PM GMT
Well let's have the very small sample...me and who else?
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus ........ My Gallery
::third_eye
07/26/07 11:11 PM GMT
how about a sample...of crickets chirping in the background?
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::DigiCamMan
07/27/07 12:49 AM GMT
Or maybe a carpet sample? With crickets chirping in the background of course.
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus ........ My Gallery
::jacked
07/27/07 1:06 AM GMT
Let's face it, the good old days are gone when this was a small close community where almost everyone knew or cared about each other. I guess growth is good and bad, i watched the plant that i worked at for thirty eight years. grow from a family operated company to an international company, and as it did, it lost the loyalty and closeness that it once had enjoyed, to where almost everyone even the company lost site of the quality and personal responsibility that it takes to keep a family together. Growth can be good or bad. Dwight.
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::solita17
07/27/07 1:08 AM GMT
Hey, I vote often... and my scores still go down... ummm, it was a joke...

Lately, I've been posting landscapes that get somewhere in the 30's, while seeing "snapshots" of pets and people that get 50' and 60's. Go figure. Hey Jerry, I know the same thing and I still get upset too... but joking aside, I try to vote regularly, using my head and not the "Wow' factor... even if I can't take a topnotch picture (yet) I still know a good one from a bad one... so it's verrrrry hard not to feel burned when I see lousy shots getting high marks.

On second thought, Jerry, maybe you better move over so I can reach the blackboard... what was it you were saying, Rob, about crickets?

Mary (solita-whoever)
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"If I dream I shall be real, or really myself..." Robert Penn Warren
::DigiCamMan
07/27/07 2:42 AM GMT
Both Dwight and Mary Solita Whoever make some good points. I agree with Dwight it has changed here in the last few months...it just feels different. Some have just slipped away. I agree also with Mary about snapshots garnering some fairly decent scores and seeing a really good shot get thumped. You are supposed to turn the monitor on before you vote.
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus ........ My Gallery
&philcUK
07/27/07 10:11 AM GMT
Having a small elitist sample of votes isn’t healthy for the community by any stretch of the imagination and provides a wholly unbalanced and inaccurate appraisal of an image. This is supposed to be a community where everyone has the opportunity to participate. If they choose not to then that is their choice but they certainly shouldn’t be excluded for the sake of maintaining a small groups warm fuzzy feelings about themselves. If you want to have a fair assessment of your work then you need a large and varied sample of opinion that can bring balance to over or under inflated scores and accept that people have different tastes and that your work might not be as globally appealing as you’d like to imagine. The change in the site is the draining of the community spirit it once had and promoting elitism will only damage that still further.

It’s true a lot of snapshots get through and get ridiculous scores. Members are encouraged not to upload this style of image but as usual, along with the CoC, this is for the most part ignored. New members are often allowed some initial posts like this and then hopefully shepherded away from it – repetitive abuse of that isn’t appropriate or welcome though.

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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
::LynEve
07/27/07 11:12 AM GMT
Ok I said I was gone but I have to come back and agree with the above which what I have said more than once (even more than twice)-if the number of votes allowed on each image was increased a fairer and more balanced result would be gained.
:)
16, 17 even 20/21 is not (imho)enough.
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The question is not what you look at, but what you see ~ Marcel Proust
::solita17
07/27/07 8:32 PM GMT
Hi Phil. Maybe I should have left my own photos out of what I said. I wasn't talking about global appeal by any stretch of the imagination... I'm talking about simple things like over-exposure and snapshots. Every time I post a photo I'm reminded in writing that snapshots of people or pets is "DISCOURAGED", (in quotes.) I didn't write that, Caedes Control Board did. Please forgive me for being a little confused. Either it's discouraged... or it is not. Yes, I did post a snapshot once... for the expressed reason of thanking people here at Caedes, also understanding and expecting that it would get a low score, which it did. I had no problem with that. But the snapshots I encountered were not posted by new members. And I think this is where my confusion comes in.

And, Phil, I am in no way promoting 'elitism.' If that's what you read into my words, you misread.

Mary
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"If I dream I shall be real, or really myself..." Robert Penn Warren
&philcUK
07/29/07 11:27 AM GMT
no i didnt misread it mary - I was referring to an earlier post to limit the amount of votes cast to a smaller sample. my apologies for the confusion.
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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
::solita17
07/29/07 6:50 PM GMT
Oh, okay, I'm easy... also hyper-sensitive... "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"
:-)))
mary
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"If I dream I shall be real, or really myself..." Robert Penn Warren
.scionlord
07/29/07 7:00 PM GMT
*ponders*
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius
.JEdMc91
07/29/07 8:53 PM GMT
It happens to me too. I have a picture on here called bridge over the lake....and thinking it would make a c-index of at least a 60%.... it became a 20. :/
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Visit My Gallery.
&philcUK
07/30/07 9:23 AM GMT
Its probably better not to set your expectations too high then anything above that is a bonus :-) I'd imagine you were expecting a score based on the somewhat flowery critique it got, none of which pointed out any of it's obvious flaws. I wouldn’t have thought that the image you mentioned would quantify as an above average score of 60 or better. It has quite poor detailing and the chroma, light and contrast are not great – couple all that with the murky water and it doesn’t exactly make for an eye catching shot. The subject matter is fine but it would have been better served as a sharper, higher contrast monochrome shot.
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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
::WENPEDER
07/30/07 1:07 PM GMT
Sigh.... Sorry, Phil, but I feel compelled to comment on your comments. While Johnathan's "Bridge" photo may not qualify as a "perfect" shot, I hardly think it merits a score of 21 either. This site is starting to feel something like an art critics haven of sorts. By contrast, when I first discovered this site a couple of years ago, it felt like a wonderful hideaway for artists and their fans. People appreciated the unique talents and contributions of others and reached out to encourage one another with helpful comments and suggestions. Now it feels like people are competing in an almost angry way .... and they show their anger in the voting booth.

I view image after image here on a fairly frequent basis and I find the quality of work certainly "above average" across the board. Yet the RATING that many images are receiving is almost embarrassing and tells me that the voting booth has become a place where people can act out against others in private (they don't bother to express their dislike of the images they rate poorly through comments.)

To imply that c-index scores are an ACCURATE index of image quality is to ignore reality. Yes, SOME good images score relatively well, but many more score abysmally poor. If one thing is clear, it's that the c-index is not a helpful measure because it is clearly horribly unreliable. I TRY to ignore it but, in the final analysis, it is something of a DE-MOTIVATOR for me. I simply don't feel the same incentive I once did to take the time and effort to upload images here.

I LOVE the art here and, as I've said before, the the site format is outstanding. But the rating system is a point of disappointment and discouragement for many and, while I may not be able to change it, I don't find it hard to understand why this ISSUE continues to come up on the discussion boards. Wen
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&philcUK
07/30/07 2:48 PM GMT
wen - I didn't mean to imply that it was only worth a 20 but that it was quite flawed and that all things considered it wouldn't normally get a score like 60 or above. it's completely pointless constantly showering images with unwarranted scores and praise as it gives the artist a false impression both of the quality of the image and their abilities in general - especially when the artist asks for critique too. far too much of this has been going on here and that to a large degree has lead to much of the angst. odd that you never notice people complaining about the system when their scores actually goes up after the full voting sample is in - then its obviously fine and dandy.

I realise that many people shy away now from giving honest critique - even it is asked for - as it is often met with hostility and not necessarily from the artist who posted the piece. it's like many things in life - if you don't want an awkward answer, don't ask awkward questions etc etc.
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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
+tbob
07/30/07 2:56 PM GMT
This is how I like to at the C-Index,its the same but the values have been shifted

0=very poor
10=needs work
20 to 30=average
50 to 70=above average
80 to 90=exceptional
100=godlike

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::DigiCamMan
07/30/07 4:37 PM GMT
I have to agree with Wendy it's just not the same place it was a year or two ago. The c-index has become a crippler and is disappointing for many here. As for myself I don't know what to put up anymore. One hits and 5 or 6 bomb. Seems people try to hold you into a certain area, for me it's landscapes. If I break out they fizzle and I don't feel the shots are that bad. But then here I go again...it's a wallpaper site! Who would want to sit and look at a Vulture no matter how good the shot? I have to remind myself that people focus narrowly on what beauty really consists of. God made the Rose and He also made the Vulture. Each has it's own beauty.

And Phil I don't mind your critiques because photo work is your living, I respect your comments. What galls me is all the nice comments on a picture and then the low score. It would be so much better if the people who comment would vote. Apparently they don't and if they do their voting doesn't coincide with their comments. I usually consider a 5 in the VB as a somewhat good snapshot. I have seen many pics under 5 that deserved better. Well you guys wanted to change the place and you have. In the beginning you would have to had to take me to court to leave...now I continually think about leaving. I look up at Google and think should I or shouldn't I? Maybe there is another place like this one was.
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus ........ My Gallery
::mimi
07/30/07 8:53 PM GMT
Jerry, one of the things you said struck a chord with me. It was this:

"t would be so much better if the people who comment would vote"


I can count on one hand the number of times that I have actually gotten an image in the voting booth that I commented on.:( It just doesn't happen for me. And, no, I am not in the 'most active member list' since I don't upload much.
I do however, comment on images after I have voted on them. :)

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~mimi~
::J_272004
07/30/07 11:10 PM GMT
"It would be so much better if the people who comment would vote."

It used to be like a couple of years ago.. those who commented could vote.. but that system was abused, and the C-Index during that time was much worse than what it is now, people were voting 10 on friends and even their own work, then voting 0 on people who they thought was "competition" or if they didn't like that person.. hence the death of that system..

IMHO.. i think that images shouldn't be put in the new images gallery until they have had the quota of votes.. that way no one knows who the artist is until it's been voted on.. also with the friends list it should only show that the friend has posted but you can't access the image until the votes have finished... and... I think it should be compulsory that after you vote you make a comment stating why the rating.. or have a check list eg... composition (poor, good, excellent) etc tick the one which is your opinion that way the artist will get at least a little bit of feedback to work from.. yes it will take a little bit more time but at least the voters will have to take a bit more notice of the image.. because lets face it.. knowing how to improve is one of the most important aspects of art...

ok.. i've said my piece..
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MY GALLERY ........... "Live one day at a time and make it a masterpiece"
::solita17
07/31/07 12:49 AM GMT
Excellent idea, Jacqueline. Speaking strictly for me: I would welcome a system like that... it would give me a bit more structure when commenting or critiquing, and also some valuable feedback from other artists on my own work. It might also even out the discrepancy between the comments people get and the actual c-index that appears.

But wait a minute, who am I kidding? That makes too much sense! :-)))
mary
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"If I dream I shall be real, or really myself..." Robert Penn Warren
.margali
07/31/07 1:53 AM GMT
Not to become embroiled, but it isn't true that hiding images until all the votes are in would ensure blind voting. Many people sign their work distinctively so, even if the general style of the image isn't identifiable, the signature is likely to be so. Unless uploading images with signatures is prohibited, I don't see how voting can be blind. And I'm not suggesting that it should be prohibited, of course.

I still like the "opt out" suggestion. Let people opt out of the voting system for an upload on the understanding that the image will not be considered for the main galleries. While this is probably truly satisfactory to nobody, it would enable people to share images and get feedback without subjecting their work to the voting booth.

Otherwise, the only way to opt out is to comment and view, but not to upload. I find this less stressful, but it has obvious disadvantages.

- cfr
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::bean811
07/31/07 3:27 AM GMT
I've been following this discussion for awhile and sitting back and observing, but I wanted to say something. I've been a member of this site for quite awhile, but not a regularly contributing member until some time after this 'golden era' a few have been talking about a year or two ago. Two or three years ago I never even would have considered photography as hobby (all I wanted to do was play baseball and surf!), but its because of all the great talent on here that opened up a new world to me that never existed before. Now, I can hardly put my camera down (I'm going to have to put it down to get through this next tax season at work!) But, to those of you who are frustrated with the c-index (I would include myself in that category), you should think about your devout followers who are always there to comment on your every post, offering their critiques and comments. Everyone on here has their list of friends that support each other and are always eager to see each others next shot. Sure, other sites may have a better voting/scoring system (I really don't know too much about the alternative sites), but do they compare at all with this sites' feeling of community and friends? I take my friends' comments, critiques, and thoughts over any c-index score any day of the week.

So, to Jerry specifically, we all know how talented you are and YOU know how talented YOU are. You don't need a c-index to tell you if a shot came out successful...I guarantee that you won't upload something unless you believe it to be worthy (vultures included). For me personally, I would be disappointed to see you leave this site...the site my be winding down for you, but its only just begun for people like me.

There's my two and half cents!!!
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As a wise man once said, "Wherever you go, there you are."
::DigiCamMan
07/31/07 5:48 AM GMT
You make a lot of sense Stephen and thanks for the kind words. It's that community that does keep me here and I value that more than photography. Many many good people here, some times we have words but all friends nonetheless. I appreciate every person here for their support and friendship.

J-Lady's idea is pretty much what I was trying to convey as concerning the critique box. Personally I think she has a workable solution. Now let's get rid of Hillary and replace her with J-Lady.
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus ........ My Gallery
+Samatar
07/31/07 5:58 AM GMT
I had a word once. It was "spaghetti".
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion- rescope.com.au
::DigiCamMan
07/31/07 6:19 AM GMT
Yes you did and it seized my crank.
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus ........ My Gallery
::J_272004
07/31/07 2:08 PM GMT
WOW... thanks.. maybe the boss will read it and think it will work too.. ;) as for replacing Hillary.. I don't think the USA is ready for me yet.. lol
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MY GALLERY ........... "Live one day at a time and make it a masterpiece"
::solita17
07/31/07 5:53 PM GMT
Lol, after the last several years we'd welcome you with open arms and the 'Hallelujah Chorus'!
mary
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"If I dream I shall be real, or really myself..." Robert Penn Warren
::LynEve
08/01/07 12:31 AM GMT
I LIKE voting,I like getting votes, therefore I guess I like the c-index. I just don't like plummets.
I still think more votes should be allowed to accumulate on each image. Making it compulsory in return for every upload may increase the voting numbers.
I respect and appreciate the time and effort the moderators of this site put in. Many members put a great deal of time effort and contributions in as well, and this also has to be appreciated, and their concerns considered.
Much angst regarding the c-index could be avoided if, when a respected and valued member expresses concern about the voting system, as has happened in this thread, a simple reassurance that the voting pattern will be investigated by someone with authority to do so could be given. This would give not only the questioner, but everyone else as well,confidence that things are being taken care of. Maybe these questions are investigated but it would be nice to be told. It would also discourage anyone who does, or is considering, meddling with the voting system in a malicious way.
We have been reminded in another thread that "the moving of images to the perms is entirely at the mods discretion". That is fine, I have no quibbles with that - but mods are not gods.They are human like the rest of us and have bad days, bad hair days etc. It would be good if there was an 'official' avenue through which an image one may consider has been overlooked could be re-evaluated. I don't mean holus-bolus every rejected image - perhaps a limit of 1 per month per person, and just for images that have been voted highly by our peers. A short explantion as to the reasons for rejection would often suffice. Mistakes can happen. I once had a picture re-evaluated thanks to the interest and graciousness of a mod who had taken the time to follow a question I asked in the Request For Comment forum. No one would feel comfortable about directly approaching one about their concerns, but to know that if one did arise it could be addressed 'officially' may also save a lot of worrywarting and hidden resentment which can manifest inself in other ways. (Such as down voting the images of other perhaps?)
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The question is not what you look at, but what you see ~ Marcel Proust
&KEIFER
08/01/07 1:23 PM GMT
You lost me at "mods are not gods"


While, on one hand, I agree with your desire that there be an avenue for reassessment for an image .. you aren't doing the math .. the list of +mods may be legion in its numbers but in actuality there are only 2 or 3 people with their hand on the rudder of this site (and, NO, my name isn't on the list) ..

Factor in the duties being juggled by this group, the number of images added each month, the amount of image movement, questions asked, decisions second guessed, PMs sent, Whines, Cheeses

Factor in that 99% of this takes place with very little, if any, input from the Praetor Maximus .. and with zero support from 95% of the staff (already mentioned)

Factor in that 80% of the complaints are directed at an issue that only 1 of us can address, yet none of you have 'tumbled' to that and you still direct your venom at the group as a whole .. with threats of mass\solo lemming'ism (from the adults, not the kids)

factor in that what started as a hobby for ME, collecting images .. possibly for others, here, as well .. and for *geri, collecting and displaying images online .. has mutated into conspiracy theories, popularity contests, and slights against ones own self worth based on a number that .. NEWS FLASH .. has no meaning in the great scheme of things



and .. you will understand why I am prepared to step down at the next round of 'promotions' so that I can be replaced

if not sooner
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.•*''*•._.•*''*•._.•*''*•._.•*''*•..•*''*•._.•*''*•._.•*''*•._.•*''*•..•*''*•._.•*''*•._.•*''*•._.•*''*•.
::LynEve
08/01/07 1:48 PM GMT
I have never directed venom at anyone, group or individual.
I dont "do" maths
And it is not MY fault if there are not enough chiefs to look after the indians.

more . .

I have never suggested a "conspiracy" theory
I have no desire to be "popular"

more...I am not a lemming nor have I ever threatened to 'lem'

There is a difference between whining and discussing an issue.

If one is seen to be whining when joining a debate, well bring on the cheese.



If issues are not discussed they fester.

May as well delete the forums if they are not to be used.

As I said, mods are not gods, and you are all entitled to your bad hair days.
Just as we are.
I just developed one.

I think I'll have a w(h)ine
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The question is not what you look at, but what you see ~ Marcel Proust
::J_272004
08/01/07 2:38 PM GMT
He can't have a bad hair day.. he's bald.. lmao...

"the list of +mods may be legion in its numbers but in actuality there are only 2 or 3 people with their hand on the rudder of this site".... If that is the case, maybe they should get rid of the +mods that don't have any input or interest in maintaining the site or haven't been involved for a long time and put people in who would be prepared to do the work..
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MY GALLERY ........... "Live one day at a time and make it a masterpiece"
::LynEve
08/01/07 2:44 PM GMT
Have some cheese Jac :)
I've drinkked all the wine.
And my hair looks aaaawful !
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The question is not what you look at, but what you see ~ Marcel Proust
::solita17
08/01/07 4:25 PM GMT
"If issues are not discussed they fester." Very true for me.

This discussion-debate-whine-whatever has been very valuable to me for exactly that reason. Did I ever think of 'lemming'? Briefly. I thought, "Well, I CAN fold up my tent and my photos and go somewhere else..." Then I read what Stephen (bean811) had to say, and thought of the myriad of reasons why I came here in the first place. It was actually very uplifting. So I was able to put things into perspective -for myself.

But I never would have reached that place, and I would still be festering, if this discussion had not taken place.

mary
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"If I dream I shall be real, or really myself..." Robert Penn Warren
::third_eye
08/01/07 7:30 PM GMT
"Factor in that 99% of this takes place with very little, if any, input from the Praetor Maximus .. and with zero support from 95% of the staff (already mentioned)"

ok, if I can add something constructive here, why not address that? It's understandable that anyone, be it members, mods, or even Geri, the site's founder, decide to find something else to occupy their time.

Demanding more of their volunteered time, upon contemplation, comes off as needy and selfish. And no, the nine dollars per three months shouldn't be seen as license to demand jack squat. It was supposed to be a way to pay for the site's continued operation, and being able to upload an extra image per day should be seen as a "thank you"...nothing more.

Sure, I'd love to see my images approved the second I upload them. Sure, I'd love to have other site issues addressed. But the reality is that people are people. Just as the absurdity in the voting booth will continue to occur,so will the occasional displeasure of someone at some point.

I will say that I agree that if mods decide to move on, their status should be revoked, or lessened, and those who want to help be tapped to do so.

Geri, are you listening?
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*caedes
08/01/07 9:52 PM GMT
yep
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-caedes
::LynEve
08/01/07 10:01 PM GMT
*Demanding more of their volunteered time, upon contemplation, comes off as needy and selfish*
Rob, my suggestions did not come from any neediness or selfishness. Simply suggestions that I thought MAY in the long run ensure the more smooth operation of the site by lessening the disatisfaction some are feeling, and maybe leave the mods more time to do their job rather than dealing with moans and groans. It was my attempt to offer something 'constructive'. If it did not appear that way then I am sorry, not for what I said, but that it has been taken that way. It would be nice to think that most who do take the time to participate in discussions are doing so for good reasons with the good of the site at heart. I do not believe that making suggestions should be seen as 'demanding' but rather a sincere attempt to address the issues. You are so correct in saying people are people, and that includes the much maligned mods. I do not pay my NZ$12 per 3 months for any other reason than to support a site I think is worth supporting, and do not see it as a licence to make demands of any sort. Suggestions are not demands.
Debate is healthy, festering leads to destruction decay and meanness.

Now, excuse me while I go and see to my hair, it is particularly horrific this morning, and demands my attention.
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The question is not what you look at, but what you see ~ Marcel Proust
+tbob
08/01/07 10:09 PM GMT
What would you have site admin do?You try to do one thing and these people dont like it.You try to do something else those people dont like it.So what would the answers be?
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::third_eye
08/01/07 10:54 PM GMT
Lyn, I can assure you my comments weren't directed at you.

tbob, if you're asking me (and if you're not,I'm telling you anyway :P) I'd have the mods uphold the CoC consistently, and in an unbiased manner. I'd ask them to decide if they really have the time to contribute their time and energy, and if not, hey that's cool, but take a break, and make room for people who frequent the site more than once a month.

As for people liking one thing, and not another, well my suggestion might not be a popular one. Perhaps they need to go re-learn how to be adults again, and deal with life's little disappointments (including yours truly). I'm not talking about healthy debate. I'm talking about written equivelents to tantrums, brow-beating, badgering, etc. No means no. It doesn't mean no, until you re-ask the same %$@$% thing 50 times. Or, at least it shouldn't.

What's the point of having authority if it isn't wielded assertively, and consistently? In the interest of fairness, the rules themselves, by and large, seem fair to me, so simply upholding and abiding by them should defeat any challenges to whether fairness is being practiced.

Thoughts?
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::LynEve
08/01/07 11:40 PM GMT
*What would you have site admin do?You try to do one thing and these people dont like it.You try to do something else those people dont like it.So what would the answers be? *

Its the same old story . .
"You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time."
Time to REALLY worry when none of the people are pleased any of the time. In the meantime surely it is preferable to have open discussion rather than behind the scenes? Often just to know someone is listening goes a great way towards resoloving any concerns.
There will always be 'these' people and'those' people and the odd badger or two but it should not matter which category they fall into, if they don't have a voice they will fester.

A festering badger is not a pretty sight :)
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The question is not what you look at, but what you see ~ Marcel Proust
+tbob
08/02/07 12:46 AM GMT
The site has pretty much always been set up so the user had as much freedom as possible.
With freedom comes responsibility this is were the problem lies,a few bad apples have screw up this system so it has morphed into what you now see.
Everyone is always down on the mods like we are out to stop the fun or something,that's not the way it is or has ever been.I'm just like you guys I like to make pics and post them,get comments and have people vote on them and so forth.I used to be friends with allot of people here but slowly as the problems started it became tougher and tougher,I was getting drug into petty squabbles and arguments until I had to basically separate myself from the non admin users and eventually from the whole site for a while.
Everyone always complains they have no say so as to how the site work but trust me the reason things have turned out the way the have is because peoples constant complaining.
C-Index discussions are discouraged because they usually wind up as and argument,then the nasty PM's begin then low voting on peoples and so forth.
When mods were selected I think he tried to pick people that had totally different viewpoints this would probably account for the CoC inconstancies,once again I would think this is a good thing.
The Discussion Boards were created for one purpose that is to discuss stuff,once again the problem is some people like to argue once that starts things begin to go bad again low voting and nasty PM's and so forth and so on,it all seem like a vicious circle.Its freakin insane. One this is for sure it seems to me allot of the problems that go on aren't admin problems.
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::LynEve
08/02/07 1:26 AM GMT
*Everyone is always down on the mods*
*Everyone always complains they have no say so as to how the site work*

With all due respect +tbob, I can not agree with either of the above statements. If you go back and read my previous post you will I said
"I respect and appreciate the time and effort the moderators of this site put in." and that is not the only time I have said it.
Without you the site would not function.
I have no wish to take sides in any perceived admin v. users backstabbing. Genuine efforts to add thoughts and opinions should not be dismissed as worthless I am sure you will agree. You can not have a debate without the 'argue' factor, thats what a debate is, after all.

Verb: debate
1.Argue with one another
2.Think about carefully; weigh
3.DISCUSS the pros and cons of an issue
4.Have an argument about something

I prefer #3 as a definition.
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The question is not what you look at, but what you see ~ Marcel Proust
+tbob
08/02/07 5:31 AM GMT
*Everyone is always down on the mods*
*Everyone always complains they have no say so as to how the site work*

The above statement has little bearing on this thread other than my experience of things that have happened in the past.

LynEve I don't know if you are really familiar with how nasty these Discussions used to get in the past or not,but I will say one thing if some of these people were standing face to face I believe they would have came to blows.For that reason some discussions are discouraged,it has nothing to do with censorship.

I cant speak for the other mods but trust me on this the site would function perfectly fine without me.

Verb: debate
1.Argue with one another
2.Think about carefully; weigh
3.DISCUSS the pros and cons of an issue
4.Have an argument about something

above good below bad

1.Name calling
2.Shooting mouth off because of 1
3.Not discussing issue,instead 1+2
4.Generally make others life miserable during and after discussion is over.

I sometimes ponder why discussions of this nature draw more comments then a really cool image that get post here at the site.Maybe if someone posted a screenshot of a discussion about the C-Index they would get allot of comments on their pic.
Just kidding,but seriously what are you guys doing to make Caedes a better place?Are you spending more time leaving feedback and random images and things of that nature?I often read that people don't feel like it a close community like it used to be.How do you think that could be solved?If that was solved do you think it would have any bearing on other things like the low votes?
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::LynEve
08/02/07 10:32 AM GMT
*but seriously what are you guys doing to make Caedes a better place?*

:) Since you ask . . .even though I am not a guy :)

As far as time allows (unfortunately I have to work lol) I do my best. No, I do not comment as often as I would like to be able to on random images but I do make time to vote on those in my friends list - who are there because I like their style of art. When I see an image I am particularly impressed with in the VB I try to visit and leave a comment.

So - I vote, comment, and upload as often as I can.

Whether this makes Caedes a better place is not for me to say.

I know it gives me a great deal of pleasure and satisfaction - and the bonus is I learn as well, thanks to help and suggestions received and my requests for comments.

It has even been known on occassion that I have been able to help others learn. Surprisingly!

I would hope that at least a few of my >600 uploads have given pleasure to some, if nothing else.


I was also deluded enough to imagine (silly me!) that participating in discussions may help to make it a better place.
Maybe not
I don't know.
I guess I will just carry on doing what I have been doing for the past year and a half.

:) :)


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The question is not what you look at, but what you see ~ Marcel Proust
::WENPEDER
08/02/07 1:26 PM GMT
Jacqueline suggested: "...IMHO.. i think that images shouldn't be put in the new images gallery until they have had the quota of votes.. that way no one knows who the artist is until it's been voted on.."

By and large, I don't think it's WHO made an image that's causing the wide variability in scores on relatively similar quality images. As a number of people have admitted, they just don't LIKE certain TYPES of images (i.e. flowers) or certain types of art (i.e. abstract or fractal art)and they score such images low routinely.

I do think that images should remain in the new images gallery (rather than archived) until they have obtained "a quota of votes." This would keep them showing up in the voting booth and draw a larger sample of votes. If this site is serious about having the c-index be a true index of image quality, a significantly larger sample is needed (i.e. at least 50 votes.)

In addition, votes should not be WEIGHTED statistically, IMHO (if I vote "9" on an image, I don't want some statistical formula reducing my "9" vote to a "6" based on my pattern of voting on images over time or the desire to have c-index scores fall nice and neatly on a standard curve. Are votes being WEIGHTED at this time??)

But that still won't fix the "I just don't like fractals" or "I just don't like flowers" problem. And, given that photographers far out number other types of artists here, if photographers tend to have an aversion toward abstract or fractal art and register that aversion in the voting booth, then those images will suffer lower overall c-index scores. One solution that many have suggested is to allow people not to vote on certain types of images if they have a general aversion for them, but that suggestion has not been well received by site administrators.

Bottom line...I DO like this site and my suggestions on this subject ARE meant to be helpful rather than some kind of condemnation of this site.

Wen
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+tbob
08/02/07 3:11 PM GMT

I don't get the whole fractal vs photographer thing.Lets just say for a minute that fractal posters are voting low on pics and photographers are voting low on fractals intentionally.How is that a C-index problem?

I personally feel the C-index is pretty accurate,the reason I say this is I post at quite a few places around the net and have decided that my stuff is average,I have based this on feedback from other people.Then I post same pic here and get pretty much the same results from the C-index.

The main flaw in the C-index is the people using the system,that being said no changes are going to make a difference until some change their way of thinking.


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&philcUK
08/02/07 3:14 PM GMT
I would have thought that keeping images in the new galleries until they have a large voting sample like you suggested is impractical as the current volumes of uploads and votes would mean they would be there for months and months - probably at least a full quarter - and would lead to difficulties in navigating the new images galleries due to the massive increase in volume. however large the sample - you will still see a variation in the score and personally, I don’t believe 10-15% is that significant a change over the sample and quite normal in that many people have many opinions.

The only way the sample will increase is if less images are uploaded and more people vote more often.
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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
+tbob
08/02/07 3:25 PM GMT
I feel the number of voters that vote now tell me what I want to know.
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::animaniactoo
08/02/07 5:46 PM GMT
This is probably gonna be a bit long. Stop now if you don't have a cup of coffee @ the ready.

I haven't been involved as much lately due to a number of factors (preparing for a major meeting for most of the past month, my bf moving in - no that was not the meeting - down people!, and a certain need as tbob experienced to separate myself for awhile), but I'm back now and I'd like to put in me 2 cents.

I needed that separation for a few reasons:

1) I was starting to take this place too seriously and forget that for basically EVERYONE here, it's our hobby. We can be passionate about it, but after awhile we don't wanna start looking like Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction here now…

2) The number of images being uploaded has more or less become a flood of images to me. It's not there aren't good images, but rather that in the time that I have available to spend on my hobby, it's more demanding even just to go through the new images gallery than I have the time for on the average day, especially lately. I have attempted to clone myself but the last 2 attempts failed - one rather disastrously, and we're still cleaning up for that one.

3) As some people have pointed out, there has become a certain level of treating this site as photo sharing rather than as an artistic site for wallpapers and otherwise. It's a slow trend, but sort of there, and I see that point. However there's still alot of great art, and I'm not sure that there's really that much more of the "photo-sharing" percentagewise than there was when I joined - it's just that it's harder to wade through when there are so many more images overall.

I remember seeing Samatar make a comment way back that when he uploaded one of his 1st images, it had the timestamp on it, and Pierre (ppigeon) kindly explained to him how to remove it. This is what alot of us are here for - that kind of feedback and help.


I have never put nearly the amount of time and energy into this site that the Mods, the Aediles, and especially *caedes has. If I can get tired, I can only imagine what they're going through. (Massages in the backroom everybody, pool party to follow - suits optional)

I had suggested on another thread that those mods who felt they needed to move on be allowed to honorably retire with perhaps some new category to indicate time served. I still think this is a good idea, especially if those voices of experience are allowed to continue to participate in the Senate discussions.

I also think there's backlash going on from both sides - while overall I think the mods do a great job, there are places where it could be better and people are reacting that - and the mods are reacting to people who don't know how to just accept "No" and move on down the road. It takes thick skin to be a mod, but after awhile those top twenty or so layers get penetrated. I think we need one of those community building weekend resort meetings for the mods. Training in how to say "I'm sorry you disagree, I stand by my decision" and stop answering people who can't deal.

Some people have fragile egos, frankly this is not the place for them - and I personally think we should stop trying to make it inclusive for them. If they're going to get pissy all the time, if they want to be able to upload images and receive only kudos, if they don't want to accept the image or behavior standards set by *caedes, the Senate, and the Assembly, then let em leave and don't let the door hit em on the way out (cept for one or two - no names mentioned). When issues are raised, they'll be taken more seriously if people (not just the mods, but the community in general) haven't been inured and become burnt by the level of flak all around.

Caedes has a certain standard as a website, and I think it's more important to try and uphold that than soothe hurt feelings of people who are either overly sensitive or just downright whiny/childish. I've been told repeatedly by friends that while sometimes it's hard to hear what I have to say (even when said as tactfully as possible), when I say something positive, they take it more seriously because they know I don't blow smoke (you didn't see that last nite, it didn't happen, and I NEEDED it, okay? - that's not the kind of smoke I was talkin about SHEESH). When I came here, I saw that same level of "we don't blow smoke", and I appreciated it, and I'd love to see it continue along with the art and friends I enjoy.

That's more like a buck 49 cents of words, and I think I have more to say, but A) I'm @ work, and B) GEEZ that's long enough, you're actually still READING this?

and no… I don't have change on me, you'll just have to make do. 8•P
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One man sees things and says "why?" - but I dream things that never were and I say "why not?"
::third_eye
08/02/07 7:31 PM GMT
*but after awhile we don't wanna start looking like Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction here now…

I dunno...back in the day, she was kinda hot, in a warped kinda way... ;-)
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::LynEve
08/02/07 11:44 PM GMT
*I think we need one of those community building weekend resort meetings for the mods.*

one for the members might be a bit of fun too :)Cameras optional?
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The question is not what you look at, but what you see ~ Marcel Proust
&KEIFER
08/03/07 12:46 AM GMT
but we have to go to anger management and sensitivity classes during ours

yours sounds kinda fun
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::LynEve
08/03/07 12:55 AM GMT
There may be members willing to give you lessons - ask around lol
:)
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The question is not what you look at, but what you see ~ Marcel Proust
::animaniactoo
08/03/07 2:39 AM GMT
Papa Smurf, pay attention! You're gonna be late for your massage. Hans will be very upset with you…
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One man sees things and says "why?" - but I dream things that never were and I say "why not?"
.laurengary
08/03/07 5:36 AM GMT
*snicker* *giggle* Hans?!?!
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I've got amnesia & deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before ! ......CLICK TO SAVE LIVES ! .......MY GALLERY

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