Every now and then it happens we upload some less successful photo to this site. I would like to start a new thread where we present one of our worse uploads (low c-index, works that never advanced to the permanent gallery) asking for crtiques. It is more and more difficult to get some decent comment on the shortcomings of our photos. I feel people are afraid to express what they truly think once they watch our works. Another thing is it is very difficult to justify our critical opinions, referring to the technical aspects of the images.

I would like this thread to teaches us how to be more professional and accurate in expressing our opinions, especially the critical ones. At the same time it should be helpful to the artists who seem to be confused once their images score poorly. I am sure some helpful hints will make it clear what is to be improved.

So, who would be so kind and give me a critical line or two on one of my recent photos? And remember, you are next to present one of your works to the fault-finding public....

This is a great idea Ewa, although I do hope you're not right about people being afraid to express their opinion. My feeling is that criticism is for private messages and not general view. I'm up for this though. Let's do it!

Critique should be "out in the open" .. so that others can learn the whys and the wherefores ... we are all (most of us) adults, and if a critique is done without malice there should be NO problem accepting the viewpoint ... it is, after all, just a viewpoint

remember, just because somebody says "it doesn't work for me due to being centered" (or whatever) doesn't mean the photographer needs to re-upoad to please that viewer\critique .. just take advice under advisement, as an adult .. use it in your next submissions .. or disregard it as something you don't agree with

If I say "I think your house would look better painted purple" .. if your house is purple the next day, then you had better like it that way too


a lot of the people who have passed through here have improved based on advice given and striving to keep up with those who's works they admire .. it is quite noticeable in some galleries ... but I could link you to a plethora of uninspired\lackluster images that have nothing but praise underneath them from a lot of the most qualified photographers here.

they, of course, will defend their words and view

Dear Ewa, I will tell you 2 sories: 1st, I once witnessed a member trying to critic a picture, you know what the owner of photo replied after a long dispute: if you don't like it just don't comment( nicely "shut-up" ). 2nd, I personaly experienced a "camouflet" from a supposedly "veterant" female photographer who after I simply & friendly suggested a more suitable title of her picture, I recieved a severe warning that is none of your business. There are other stories too, the worst when some photographers write: please be free to comment, and If you dare Badaboum! Maybe Caedes board should put new rules , but untill now, the if a like the picture ( and the photographer character )I write my opinon, and if not, I simply don't!

I think, if you post on a site that is open to comment then you are agreeing to take whatever comments you get.
Now, of course, nastiness is not right and should never be tolerated, but adult pointers, discussions and tips are good for an artist!

Even if sometimes we don't want to hear it..we should, it helps us grow.

Regarding the top linked photo..I left my comment. Lovely shot.

I agree with everything that's been stated.

Personally I would be very open to any constructive criticism, as long as it was actually helpful. I think anyone who responds to helpful advice with a nicely put "shut-up" shouldn't have their work on this website. i dont know, thats just me.

Excellent idea, Ewa.
But I insist to be constructive. This is not the place to discuss on the c-index, but just to seriously consider qualities and defects of a photo.
I let my comment on your landscape.
Here is my photo
Feel free to give your ideas. Thanks :-)

This is a great idea.. I just hope it stays on track...
I think the reason why there are very few critics is because of the fallout after it, personally I have had quite a few PM's where I've been told (especially with apophysis as well as photos)that there is nothing wrong with the image, some have been very very nasty..

To be critical I have found that if you start off being positive, then put in the negative and finish with a positive that has better results.. sometimes I even download the image, fix what I have suggested and then offer to email the finished result to the artist, this works every time as they can see the difference..

I think if you put an image on here for comments you have to take the bad with the good.. I also think if people are going to give "helpful" suggestions and tips it should be done on the image so that others can learn from it, thats how I learned by reading critic on other peoples work, not only on how to do things with images but it also helped with what to look for when voting and commenting.. So PLEASE critic on the image so others can use the tips..

If people can't take helpful suggestions and want to improve their quality of work.. maybe this isn't the site for them...

Ewa,

I agree with all that has been mentioned before.

Aj

I'm totally agree with this idea myself. I've had some people who didn't care too much for my work and said so. And added a few words on what would be nicer. I read it..accepted it..but I made my art as I liked it, and if they DIDN'T like it, thats not my problem. They don't need to fav it or look at it. I don't write nasty respondents back to them. I'm too adult for that! But this c-index does bug me. When I check mine I totally don't understand how the ones that DID do good, did good, and why others I thought SHOULD have had a high c-index didn't! THATS what I'd like to find out about. Joanie

Generally I don't leave a comment on anything unless I have a suggestion that I think would improve the image (unless it really blows me away). I must have left thousands of such comments on images, on this site as well as others, and I don't recall ever having a negative response... so I don't think people have any reason to fear making an honest critique... just be tactful, as you should be when offering advice to anyone, online or otherwise really.

Well, I try to find positive things about the images I view here and comment on. If there is an obvious problem with an image, I try to offer a helpful comment or suggest where a poster can go to ask for help. I've referred people to others on this site, whom I know are better photographers than I or who are better able to make a suggestion that I have not the expertise to offer. I am often times truly impressed with the images I view and think there are some really talented artist's on this site. As to my low c:indexes, well, I just chalk it up to the image not being that well liked and try to do better. I have been discouraged when all the comments on one of my images is glowing, but then I get a low index. I think that either I am not being told the truth or people REALLY say what they mean when they vote. No matter. I really have to commend Hottrockin (Randy) for coming across honestly in his commenting, at least with me. Sometimes I agree with his suggestion and sometimes I don't, but that's not a problem. As someone said above, if you see merit in the critique, then re-evaluate and if you think the commenter is mistaken, then shrug it off.

As to your photo, Ewa, I made a comment and I am impressed with the subject matter of the shot. The view is amazing. As to the shot itself, I just don't see how it could be improved.

And Pierre, I really like your whole series on Ladakh and have said so and the image you offer for critique is still,in my view, a most awe inspiring image and if it is difficult for some to see the splendor of those amazing mountains and absorb what it must have been like to climb down them as portrayed in your photograph then they must be numb and oversaturated with the commonplace.

With so many images in my gallery, I have begun to see the Bell Curve phenomena take form and expect some of my posts to score low and others high, but most of them land in the middle of the curve. So, to me, that means that I am an average photographer. I love the encouragement of my friends and I try to learn about cameras and the details of a shot, but most people don't post EXIF data, (I'm guilty of that too). I would even like to know what camera someone used to take a photo they posted or what program they used to create their images. Some folks do list that info and I appreciate that knowledge.

Anyway, just for fun, I will offer up a low indexed shot, that I thought was one of the clearest shots I've ever taken, but it ended up with a 48 c:index. I like the shot, but others didn't and it might be a good idea to find out why. PHOTO

The two things I notice immediatly about that photo: firstly, I find the scene rather busy, and secondly, I feel the contrast is a bit high (ie some areas are too bright and some are too dark). I think a 48 is a pretty good socre considering the subject matter, personally (what I mean is that it is not an awe inspiring view, like a mountain, river, sunset etc; or "pretty" like a flower etc).

Personally I do not consider 50 to be an "average" score on this site. I would probably vote anything I considered "average" lower than that, strange as it may sound, because I beleive that the standard expected here (and therefore expected by myself) to be higher than average; therefore something that a relative or friend might ooh and aah over should not be expected to get what one would consider to be a "high" score here. I guess that might also explain the "great comments, low c-index" phenomonen; the people who leave comments are friends much of the time, who might know what you are capable of, where you started and how much you have improved; therefore they may compare your images to those you have previously posted; or in some cases they may compare their photos to yours and be impressed as you show more skill than they beleive they have. However perhaps the majority of people who vote are only comparing your work to the best images they have seen on the web (or even in magazines or on TV) and voting based upon that?

I take what's been said above about leaving comments in the public domain - and on reflection I think that's right. I think Jacqueline's approach is the right one, give praise, then give the negative, then finish on a positive. I have certainly left some suggestions against images, along the lines of 'I might have preferred it if.....' And will do so again. I also agree that constructive criticism helps other people looking at the image.

Cindy's comment is a really good one. How many images do you look at where the photographer has left EXIF info - and told you what camera's been used? I've wished this information had been provided many many times when I've looked at images I think are successful.

On the vexed question of the C index. I find this very frustrating. One thing I notice is that many of my favourite images by other people get relatively low scores. That leads me to think that, generally, I am looking for different things in an image than the people doing the voting. Do people just looking for wallpaper have to vote before they can download? Things I have noticed are that, generally, if your photo is portrait sized - forget it. You have to hit the magic 1024 x 768 to have a chance. Also the subject matter is key. If it's something recognisible (a famous landmark) or an animal, so much the better. That said, I have to admit that many of the 'featured images' are very good photos.

What really kills me with the C index is the 'adjustment'. How many times have I had a high score with 7 votes that has then dropped and dropped as more votes get added. What's that about?

I'll offer my two lowest-rated. Thanks to Owd Bob for instructions on how to hyperlink!

Red


On the Beach

Sam, I follow your thinking on the scoring. Of the image itself, you are saying that it is too ordinary. I think the reason I took the shot at all was because I was awed by the sunlight streaming through the window and that alone would create high contrast. Now, if I told you that the desk belonged to someone famous, would that have changed your opinion on the shot?
Pierre thinks the desk in my image is too centered. That's a valid criticism. Yours is too, but I don't totally agree with the part about the lighting. And, I am really glad to hear these comments because now I can understand the index better and what I could have done to have made this image, (besides making it more awesome) better. Yes, it is of a more personal nature, but were it the desk of a celebrity or a historical figure, that would make it awesome I suppose because we'd be curious as to what things are of interest to that person that we know about in a second hand way from the media.

Nigel, I like the intense reds and golds of 'Red' and I love the expression on the young woman's face. The only thing I can see that would make it better is if you had captured the girl more into the frame. I find that people pictures, no matter how good, just don't do so well at Caedes and I think that is unfortunate because people can be the most interesting subjects in the world and the most beautiful.

Cynlee: When I made the comment about the subject matter, I meant that I personally think that it wouldn't be a popular one with most voters (which is what matters when it comes to the c-index). I wasn't talking about how I personally felt about the subject matter. I probably didn't word it very well...

I must admit I have to agree with all that has been said!...Maybe some of the images format has a lot to do with the index scores being low...Could it be because they are not classed as a 'desktop wallpaper'? like THIS ONE .. It only received a score of '35'? .. I am all for constructive criticism and welcome it to help improve images..but, can it be a drawback too!

I'm not sure I agree with making the average lower than 50 when voting - if we continue with that, we would be saying it's possible to have an image that's 110% perfect, or -10% awful. Maybe I'm a bit like a computer squawking "it has to be an integer between 0 and 100" - LOL. But this computer (i.e. me) sees 50 as the average. If the standard is high on this site, we would expect to see scores of 60 or more, whereas on another site it would be 50 or less. On some very ordinary sites I've seen low votes as well, and I've never taken it to mean "our standards here are high."

If you don't know what the other voters consider average, it's confusing to look at a score of 30 and think "oh, that's OK, that's just the same as getting 50." Maybe it's Tom's 30, Mary's 40 and Steve's 50 - you don't really know which.

Just a thought. :-).

I for one could care less about the c-index rating. The low number could be from any number of things and doesn't really reflect the quality of the image. I take photos for my own enjoyment and post them on Caedes to share with others as wallpapers. I get ideas from others here at Caedes and enjoy viewing other beautiful places that I will never get to visit. I hope my images bring joy and inspiration to others but if not just enjoy the view and move on to those images that are more to your liking. I will not be offended and welcome any comments that you choose to leave. Thanks everyone for making this a great site and let's have fun creating the best images that we can.
Russ

Here..Here! .. I have to agree with what Russ has said above too!...All I ever wanted was let other's enjoy my work from around my regions! and to get inspirations from other members posts!....Just a thought to share with you!

i rather agree with nigel about giving criticisms in PMs. sometimes when critiques are given they are given in a sarcastic demeaning tone. if critiques could contain more suggestions and perhaps encouragement they'd be great. i get a little disturbed by statements which say something like "with subject matter like you presented why would you expect a better score". i'm not trying to get into c-scores but i know that when i submit a photograph it's one i think is good enough to submit. i'd ask that you look and comment on two of mine which got reeeeeely bad scores....INIKI DID IT and AIR FORCE I .

Sam, You worded your thread comment just fine. You were right about the appropriateness of the subject matter. Comments like yours are exactly what I need to stimulate improvement. As Jeenie11 says in the thread, if people can make intelligent suggestions and recommendations without being nasty, then folks could learn from them. We need to be a little less thin skinned about accepting them too. lol
Thanks, Cindy

I read all of the comments above, and a lot of interesting things have been said. And before I go any further I would just like to say that I've been here since last December, and I know that I've learned A LOT since. I'm young and do not have professional equipment, but still, through constructive criticism as well as encouragements I got better and better (I've probably still got long ways to go though). And when it comes to the c-index, well I agree with Russ and others: when you think about it people vote with different expectations, and there could be many different reasons why an image gets a low rating. Sometimes I admit that I am a bit frustrated, because I expected a higher score. Depending on the person, a photo could be inspiring or just a bit plain. My father was a photographer and from time to time he'll come and look at photos from the site, we've talked about the whole c-index system, and when I showed him the new images gallery (sorted by c-index), he pointed out that the top-rated images were very often in the same "style", usually that would be breath-taking landscapes or animal photos. And I think it's important to remember that this is a desktop wallpaper site, so portraits of people can be as artistic and beautiful as we could ask for, but out of the 20 voters or so there will always be a few to give really low scores just because it is not adapted for wallpaper use.

I have a photo that I'm curious about, I got a c-index of 49 and was a bit disappointed. I'm assuming the problem is the subject... but I'd really be interested in getting some honest feedback on why it didn't pass the average of 50: Feather Grave

First of all ... a great idea from ekowalska. .. and lots of great comments .. but maybe we should push this a little further and get a special group for NON-desktop picture where we can post pretty much anything and thus expect a wide range of commentary? I would certainly vote YES!! for this.

I think that we are running into a mismatch between the original positioning of this site as a desktop wallpaper site and any given user's growth as photographer/artist/interpreter (use the term that pleases you the most). Sometime there is no overlap. When we post pictures here, I think we must expect that they are looked at as potential desk tops. If they do not work as a DT, they will not get great votes (or a c-index) ... in spite of any alternative merits. I must confess that when I am in the voting booth I ask myself .. would this make a good (objectively as possible) desktop? If yes .. minimum 8 and I look at it some more to see if I can work it up.. if no ... 7 .. and I am out of there. And sometimes I am in a overly critical mood :).

The last comment is spot on. There are two things it prompts me to say. First, in a perverse way I think that this being a desktop wallpaper site instills a discipline - it's making me really think about what people out there look for in an image. Second, this thread really affirms what a vibrant and alive community Caedes is. I'm learning a lot and I'm not sure I'd get as much out of posting anywhere else.

Duplicate post, sorry.

Although I try not to get bothered about scores I would love to know "what is wrong" with THIS ONE
There must be something with a score of 31.
OK, its flowers - so it is disadvantaged from the beginning - but I did put time and effort into the presentation as a desktop. Pride comes before a fall they say - well I have fallen big time lol
Any offerings of reasons for its failure would be greatly appreciated and welcome.
I would also be interested to now what made this Bunch of Flowers successful - it is a one-off snapshot of a florist arranged bouquet whereas the daffodills are alive and growing and required this old ducky to actually lie amongst them to get the shot - at least that was enjoyable - for me at any rate, although maybe not a pretty sight, and a few blooms were harmed in the making of the picture lol

Thank you Ewa for letting me know about this thread. I agree with most of the people above. But I use 5 as a average. Its no secret that I didnt like the voting system and I have point out before what I think. Maybe the voting system would changes to something better. I dont know if I step on anyones toes now but I have seen a raiting/voting system on Shutterpoint that I think is a better one. Maybe I doing something wrong now but I try anyway (because I like this site so much), please forgive me if I do.
Rating different aspects of photos / Optional comments There they have some catagorys like "composition" and so on (look at the link) and if I rate a photo I have to choose on four points like Poor, Fair, Good, Perfect.
Tells a Story and Dramatic effect you dont need to fill but the others you have to fill. If we have something like that on Caedes we could easy put some category like "Wallpaper" that we also must fill. This system is not so sensetive for extrem low votes or extrem high votes.
And if you look at one of my pictures here you can see at the bottom of the page how it looks like when people have rate this picture. You can see a little rectangle to the right side, click on it and you see how this person usually rate. And if you click on the ratings number blue "9" or what it is, you can see how this person rate your pictures against other pictures.

About commentating on a picture I try to see the good thing and I think that every one that upload a picture have had something in her/his mind about what they thought was beautiful. Could be the light, color tone and maybe funny. I try to see that and have that in my mind when I commentating. But Im afraid that Im not so good in the photo technique that I could say whats wrong or good in terms but I now a good picture when I see it.
I vote photos and fractals on the same scale.

I hope that I dont have provoke someone with this contribution.
With love
Mariana

I can take Cindys picture for exemple. If I had see it in VB I probably would set a 6. I think its a great picture. Great light from the window, composition is great too and it has no noise and its a sharp picture. If we have the other system it would turn up like this:
Composition = good
Creativity / Originality = good
Depth of Field / Focus = good
Color or Tonal Range = good
Noise or Grain = Good
Exposure / Lighting = fair
Tells a Story = perfect
Wallpaper = good
And I think that have been something like 7 and totally a score on 6,25 or 6,50

I hope you dont mind Cindy. Personally I like that picture as a wallpaper. Its real life.

Mariana

Mariana, you know you are a sweetheart in my book!
I am familiar with Shutterpoint's system and it does have merit and some very good points, but I think some Caedesians don't even like having to vote at all and this may be asking too much of them to take the time to rate all of those characteristics of an image. My view is that too few people vote. But, your response does speak to Ewa's suggestion of how people could be more expressive in giving a critique. There is always that delicate balance when making a comment between leaving a suggestion and hurting someone's feelings that we must all experience. Maybe that's why some folks here have personalities that only allow them to post and hardly ever comment. One thing Shutterpoint does allow you to do is to skip voting on an image if you don't want to vote on it. But, I think Shutterpoint may have more members. I guess when you have gotten a large number of skips on your image, you know it wasn't a good one. lol

I don't know if there will ever be an answer to this recurrent problem on the voting and the commenting unless people are more sincere, but it does make for lively conversation and friendly banter sometimes. Cindy

I don't get to this part of the board very often but this one caught my eye. I for one would love to hear more on how a photo can be improved, as I am new to all this and want to be the best I can. I can get 20 comments all telling me how wonderful a photo is then get a score in the 30's and that tells me the photo was far from wonderful. But on the other side of the story, I had not been on the board that long when I offered a comment, not a critism just a comment and got a series of nasty private messages from the owner of the picture saying if he wanted those kind of comments he would ask for them and that I had no right to put a negative comment on this picture. Now I tend to keep my comments to anything nice and avoid offering suggestions.

If you got a series of nasty pm's over a comment, feel free to save them and forward them to *caedes. That sort of behavior is not tolerated, especially as it discourages one of the main purposes of this site - allowing others to gain knowledge and growth through critiques of images.

Personally I'd just take em out back and give em 20 lashes w/a wet noodle. A really long one so I can run away after.

I want to come again on the first idea given by Ewa at the beginning.
The c-index is boring because the low number of voters.
So, we haven't to look at the c-index value, but at the quality of the comments. That's why it's important to comment with "what I like is..." and what I don't like is..."
If you are going in a paint gallery and if the painter is present, he will be certainly interested by your positive AND negative criticism, not by a comment like "I like it, I give you a 8..."
Thanks Lyn for your detailed comment :-)

I think another cause of lower c-index numbers is the over saturation of a certain type of photo. In Spring it's flower photos, Summer it's beach or bugs, Fall it's the leaves and Winter it's snow or ice. While all these images maybe good, they aren't different enough to really stand out from the crowd so as we vote to post our own works we tend to give a lower average rating. We must try to depart from the norm and look at things from a different perspective. Get away from using the same style for your flower, beach, bug, leaves or snow images. Concentrate on composition, lighting and what will make an ordinary image into a masterpiece with impact. I agree with Pierre. We must get away from mundane comments and give constructive comments with likes and dislikes. I'm probably the biggest offender of this and will try to improve in that area. Enough rambling on my part. Think outside the camera and view your world with your mind's eye then try to capture that view as an image.
Russ

Very often it is difficult to have time to leave detailed comments when the site is running slowly which seems to be happening more frequently.

If the votes are too few surely the (partial) solution would be to make voting compulsory for all members before an upload can be made. Not only would it increase the numbers and make the c-index more reliable it would also give those who do not normally vote regularly the opportunity to see more variety. It is easy to look in the new images and spot an image that stands out for you and then investigate it. How much more interesting to go to the VB and see all types and levels of talent.

Sometimes the time spent voting on 40 images can seem 'boring' when as sometimes happens one seems to strike a day of mediocrity, and other times it can be inspiring to a great degree. Mostly it is half and half :)

I agree with Pierre - an artist likes to hear comments, good and bad - but they would also like to know the true value of the work as well, which in the real world would be monetary. Here it is a number. LOL - most of us probably consider our images to be worth (c-i)$80 and then find it is valued at (c-i)$37, and will probably be sent to the archive room :)

I'll try too! :-)

‘an artist likes to hear comments, good and bad’

In my experience here, that’s true at the most about 20% of the time. Tops. I don’t comment on peoples work as often as I should but for the most part, that is down either to an over the top hostile reaction to any criticism from the artist themselves or from any constructive critique being buried under a mountain of pointless sugar coated compliments that serve no other purpose than flattering and massaging egos or from equally hostile ‘fans’ of the artist who just try to dismiss your critique before pouring some more treacle on the afore mentioned sugar mountain. This ridiculous amount of ‘frosting’ has done nothing more than create an army of easily bruised egos that will happily fall on their swords at the first sign of criticism - which ultimately, I believe, has damaged the community spirit at the site irreparably. There are of course exceptions and there are many people here who both value and welcome critique from any quarter regardless of how harsh it may seem so you tend to find yourself only commenting on peoples work who you know will take it in the spirit it is intended in.

There is nothing worse than someone physically asking for critique and then instantly dismissing any negative comments they receive. It’s the old adage ‘if you don’t want an awkward answer, don’t ask awkward questions’. It’s almost an inevitability that this thread ended up in this direction again but it really is about time that people recognized for the moment at least, that if they post something here it will be judged. Sometimes fairly sometimes not. That’s the nature of people here - you have as many people who will give an image a fair balanced score as there are who will either pour treacle on it or spit venom for no apparent reason. Nothing will ever change that – as long as you afford people the opportunity to express their opinion numerically and confidentially there will be idiots who try to buck the system in either the positive or negative. Even when they get banned and keep haunting the place.

You either choose to take your score as a meaningless figure that has no real bearing on how you feel about the image yourself or as a personal attack/back rub. I’d hope that for the most part we are big and old enough to sort the wheat from the chaff ourselves rather than fixating on numeric holy grails.

P.S.

All of that rant was in no way directed at any one individual before I incur the wrath of the easily offended, merely a comment on the state of the site as it is today.

I feel you a little "turned sour", Phil...
Maybe you had a hard week at work? Haha! :-D

Something like that, pick away way through the thorns and there’s the odd flower in there too.

I dont have a sword to fall on, so am happy to have critical comment of any kind and I dont think there is such a thing as 'bad' criticism if it is genuinely given with honest intentions.
I think you are being a bit harsh Phil, about the mountains of treacle. Surely no compliment is ever 'pointless' and I think you will agree it leaves a much more pleasant taste than venom. if I had to chose between treacle and no comments at all, treacle would win hands down with the hope that the treacle would contain the advice and help without which the site would be pointless.
Now I am off to check my treacle - whoops sorry, comments, before I make some treacle toffee.
Does any one remember treacle toffee? is any anyone old enough to ?

Sugary comments are just as bad as venomous ones really – neither serve a constructive purpose and I have yet to ever read one that contains even a fragment of feedback that could be gleaned as useful going forward. Yes, I realise I am being harsh but sometimes circumstances require that. I don’t think anything I said is any way unrealistic or irrelevant to the situation here at Caedes. Getting a good comment is nice for sure but for me they are equally annoying if they are unwarranted. How often do you ever see a gushing comment that is tempered by a note of realism and critique? They are the proverbial hens teeth.

And yes, Thornton’s treacle toffee – bonfire toffee in particular – rocks.

A little preamble ...

I am offering my thoughts here on some of the images above ... in accordance as to what I think this thread created by Ewa, is aiming at ... as interpreted by me. Forgive my bluntness in some of my words below. I truly mean no disrespect to the authors of the images. I simply hope to bring some fresh 'eyes' to the discussion(s) at hand.



Ewa's Praia Dona Ana, Portugal:

Horizon has a slight tilt ... a correction and rotation to the right seems to be in order.

Not sure what you did insofar as post-sweetening ... however, if I may ... the sky is somewhat problematic to my eyes. There appears to be a gray cast, perhaps a gradient was applied? Or some colour adjustment?

The foreground area in the bottom right (lighter brown area) ... could be cropped, in my very humble opinion. Draws the eyes down and to that area.

Focus is a little soft on the boats. The delineation and clarity of the rocky facecliffs is much better.

Composition, even taking into consideration the minor foreground area mentioned ... is quite good. Well balanced to my eyes.

Really like the iridescent hues you captured in the water in the one boats' wake ... and the in the water of the immediate foreground area.

Nice photo ... the sky is what is holding it back from being very good, if not great. :o)



Pierre's Walking in the Himalaya :

Challenging lighting conditions to say the least.

Again, it would appear ... to my novice eyes ... that exposure is problematic. In particular, the overexposed areas of the clouds are the single biggest drawback (still minor) in my very humble opinion.

Agreed that this image does indeed 'tell a story'.

Framing of the people seems a little tight to the left side. Compositionally, it appears to well abide by the infamous rule of thirds ... perhaps, this is a case where the rules could have been broken a tad? Just a suggestion.

If not for the small burro(?) or horse ... I would have no problem with the composition whatsoever. In fact, in full view ... it is a very expansive photo ... with good colour saturation ... really quite nice to my eyes.



Cindy's Desk by the Window:

Exposure is slightly ... slightly problematic.

Compositionally ... hmmm, I ... well, I like it. Thankfully, the light rays extend onto the wood surfaces in the left hand side. Without ... that area would be extraneous in my humble opinion.

Focus could be a bit better. The softness ... for example; the edges of the paper standing more or less upright ... and the other items more clearly visible within the umbrella of the light ... would prefer more sharpness. However ... the softness works with the overall 'intent' of the image as I perceive it. Would be nice to have a side by side comparison of two images ... to see if overall, sharper translates into a sterile image.

'Warm' would be the operative word for how the photo sits as it does now.

I will say that for some reason ... this image 'speaks' to me. I like the glimpse into someone elses' world afforded by this visual offering. And I particularly like the diagonal line(s) of the light rays. :o)



Nigel's Red:

Skin tones ... and facial expression captured ... if I may be so bold to state and again, in my very humble opinion ... add little to the overall appeal.

Background is distracting.

Composition ... good. Good placement of the eyes overall, balanced by the young womans' costume, hat, jewellery ... et al.

Focus ... too soft for me personally. Perhaps, if had you completely blurred the background ... the sense of motion could carry this one a tad more.

Eye contact made, face up ... a more alluring facial expression ... would elevate this one in my opinion.

Nigel's On the beach:

Really like the concept and idea that I perceive presented in your photo here.

If I may ... take a look here for some 'compositional food for thought', if you will. There are templates available for download for Photoshop ... both Mac and PC. Even if you don't have Photoshop ... the compositional guide is excellent consideration. Example photos provided ... before and after crops.



Bob's Entry to Fantasy-Land!

Nice composition ... well balanced. However ... one small caveat ... the barren branches in the upper right? Hmm, perhaps a little too busy to my eyes. Suggestion ... lower perspective across the water leading to the falls. Camera position as is, I think.

If I may ... if you are going to present an image with this colour saturation ... greater contrast could help, again ... in my very humble and novice opinion. Dynamic range is slightly problematic without the added boost in contrast. Simply put ... need some more black to balance out the colour as I view this photo.

Slightly overexposed in the upper right.

Still ... quite serene and welcoming ... just needs a few additional tweaks.



Jess's Feather Grave:

A nice concept ... and I particularly like the varying textures present. Kudos for having seen that in your minds' eye and for having taken this shot.

Good colour saturation ... very natural.

Focus is a little soft on the feathers ... perhaps, it is more a question of exposure. Again, a challenging shot. Suggestion? Come out of this one a little ... bit crowded, a little too tight in my humble opinion. The context of the feathers is lost a tad and I would prefer a better balance of 'dark versus light', compositionally speaking. Simply stated ... more of the leaves and surrounding setting that the feathers are in.

Additionally, bring your focal subject matter down ... literally, in the framing. Nestled in the lower left ... more so ... and allowing for some darker contrasts above the feathers themselves I think would work well. 'Bit too top heavy visually', might be another way of phrasing it.



Ok, think that that is enough from me. I ... uh ... took notice of a lynching mob outside my door ... gtg ...


/\ Just kidding. :oP /\

Here ya go, one of mine ... and something to add into the discussion/critiquing mix ... abstracts. In particular, a fractal image created in Apophysis ... Setting Sun.

And herein lies some of the rub. I don't do fractals, or if I do I might as well not waste the time; therefore, I cannot really give a critique that means anything more than what I did at the time on your upload and that is whether or not it is pleasing to my eye, or what it made me think of when I saw it.

I can't correct you as to form or substance. I can't tell you what parameters I think would have worked better. Heck, I can't even list the things here that I should be looking for.

And this holds true in the voting booth too. I can't look at a fractal and say this and that would have made this a better render. I can only tell you how it affects me. I have no basis in experience. When I vote, I vote on whether or not I LIKE it.

So for that reason I should not be allowed to vote on the technical merits of fractals. I love them. I have a whole folder on my hard drive crammed full of lovely images, but I am unable to do what you've asked; and that is namely, critique it.

I'll go back and check, but I think all the images you critiqued above were "real" photos.

*takes toes out of the hot water and dries them off*

PJ

see here....

I've never made my own film, but I still have no problem rating a film I've seen, or recommending it to others, regardless of the genre...

Yes Sam, but would you feel qualified to give technical advice as to how it could be improved? or would you just say to the Director/Producer/Actors if you should meet them - great work,well done,Wow!, have some treacle. Assuming you liked it, that is.
I am sure they would be pleased to hear that, and leave the specialised advice to someone who was able to give it.
I rest my case for treacle.
It's sweet, it's harmless.

If we have had that system that I talk about above we could leave the voting to them that likes to vote. If you dont like photografs but you like fractals. Just vote on fractals and leave the photografs without voting. And the same to them that dont like fractals just vote on photografs.
I think that people that only like one (fractal or photografs) votes low on the category of art the dont like just because.
If we have that system you get a score on fractals and photograf without anger and you get a score right away even if only one has vote. And you can see on everyones own page how this peron votes (but not on wich picture/fractal). Its more open.

I try even now too use the system when I commentating. It helps me to have some form of template (is that the word?) so that my comments will be so right and fair as possibly. But even I have tight time sometimes :D but I try :)

If I think a special pictures could get better in,lets say PS, I try my thoughts first and if the result gets better I tell that as gentle I can in the comments. Sometime I have send a PM because I dont now how the person reacts on this.

Well, thats my opinion and thoughts :)
Mariana

Lyn, my point is that I don't accept that someone who can't make fractals isn't "qualified" to vote on one, or same for photography. I am still able to rate a film without having the expertise to be able to make one myself.

Sam, I agree with you. I like voting on fractals - I can not make them (not ones anyone would want to see) but I enjoy them and its the old adage "I know what I like' .
I apologise for going off on a tangent - it just seemed to follow on - comments , like votes, do not have to come from an 'expert' viewpoint.
A detailed analysis of how an image could be improved is always helpful, a friendly suggestion is also. And a simple "I like this' is helpful in a different way - a confirmation that someone has viewed your work and approved.
Anyone who is upset by negative comments should perhaps have a rethink as to why they upload an image in the first place.

Can I just post a public big thanks to Les (.purmusic) for the critiques he's offered of the images people have put up for comment here. I've personally found it very valuable.

The whole critique/voting malarkey boils down to a simple analogy for me:

You buy yourself a new suit, shirt, tie – the whole ensemble – and go out for a walk down the high street in it.

Someone walks up to you and gushes how fantastic you look and it’s the best suit they have ever seen. Do you:

(A) Think, God they are right! I do look fantastic!

(B) Think, calm down tiger – it’s a new suit and I’m happy with it but it’s Sears not Prada and I’m not Brad Pitt so give me a break.

(C) Run home sharpish to ferret around looking for your D.I.Y. restraining order kit.


Someone walks up to you and tells you suit is vile, you look a complete dog and it hurts their eyes to look at you. Do you:

(A) Think, God they are right! I am never going to go out in daylight again!

(B) Think, screw you – it’s a new suit and I’m happy with it but it’s Sears not Prada and I’m not Brad Pitt so give me a break.

(C) Run back to the Sears branch and firebomb it for making you look like a dog.


Someone walks up to you and tells you that they think the suit is fantastic with a great cut but the shirt and tie combo clashes really badly with it. Do you:

(A) Think, God they are right! I’ll never wear any of this again!

(B) Think, thanks – it’s a new suit and I’m happy with it but you might be right about the lemon tie and cobalt shirt. I’ll try a different combo.

(C) Ignore them completely and strut down the street thinking you’re setting a trend by trying lemon, cobalt, and taupe as a colour combo, studiously avoiding any direct eye contact with anyone else.

If you didn’t answer all B’s then perhaps you may need to reassess how you both give and take criticism. The whole concept of isolating voting sectors has been discussed at length on many occasions in the past and always with the same conclusions – that it will promote isolationism, elitism and unrealistic scores proving overall to be a very unhealthy move for the site – much in the same manner as the old voting system that allowed people to either big up their friends or dismiss others at will.

Interesting. I just got my first negative reaction from honest comments and am now wondering why I bothered. Could I propose a new topic - how do you tell people who post out of focus snapshots that they are posting....well...out of focus snapshots?

answer: exactly like that. their inability to take the info is THEIR problem, not yours darlin.

if you stop giving honest feedback on pics because of reactions like that ultimately you become part of the problem that caused Ewa to start this thread.

if you feel this particular poster's reaction was particularly out of line, please msg a mod about it. it's unacceptable and shouldn't be tolerated.

Nigel.. you could give a postive first eg. "nice scene, colour etc" then you can say something like, "it's a shame that its a little out of focus, if it wasn't for that it would have been a great shot"..

I always give a postive first then the critic then another positive or encouragement..

If it's fixable I suggest how to fix it then if I get time I download the image fix it then send a PM to them saying that I downloaded and fixed the problem, ask if they would like to see how much difference there is to the original and email it to them.. I have never had any backlash from doing it that way in fact I have found that people are quite amazed how easy it was to fix the image even from the people who jumped up and down telling me to mind my own business and how good they thought their image was.. its all about TACT..

^^^^ what she said too.

Thanks guys. I always do leave something positive and on this occasion said I thought the idea was interesting and maybe she could have another go. There's nothing to complain about here, it's just a bit of a learning process I guess. I hope I'm always tactful but I've just learnt that some people will find it difficult if their work isn't too well-received.

By the way, no-one's picked up on Phil's post which I think is a great analysis.

I followed this very interesting thread - quite extensive, it took me some time to get to the end - i agree with a lot of what has been said and I would like to add something of my own.

I have been in this community for over a year now and what I have most appreciated are the critical comments I received (some of them I may not 100% agree with, but all of them were useful and helped me think how to improve and do better next time).
For this reason I have always tried to be honest in my comments and generally avoid leaving comments with only positive remarks. There is almost always a good side and a bad side to be found in the images posted, masterpieces and totally hopeless snapshots are the exception, not the rule. I found that thinking about where the good and bad aspects lie and expressing it in words is also a good mental exercise.

I can see that some people may get upset at critical comments, so maybe they should be made more aware at the time of posting that their oeuvre may be savaged by this righteous and nit-picking community ;-) . An alternative interesting approach is one that I saw on another photography website, where you have to explicitly check an option field if you want to receive constructive criticism. This is visible to visitors. So if you don't check it, you only get sweet comments of appreciation or nothing at all. Could this approach be of interest to Caedes?
Rob

my opinion

However, I'd also like to say that Ewa's thread has been thoroughly hijacked now. The intent was for people on it to give and receive feedback on specific pieces. If anyone wants to talk about the comment process can the next person who wants to join that discussion please start a new thread and allow this one to revert to it's original purpose?

Ewa did say in her original opening post "I would like this thread to teach us how to be more professional and accurate in expressing our opinions" - I think the discussion has gone a long way towards doing that and there have been some very helpful and enlightening critiques in here as well. :)

Ewa says : "At the same time it should be helpful to the artists who seem to be confused once their images score poorly".
I know that discussing the C-Index issue is like flogging a dead horse but I would still like to say this:
1. The people who give you your "grade" are seldom qualified (including myself) to do so.
2. If you belong to a "large group of friends", your friends have already seen your posting before they get it in the voting booth and it is quite possible that in that case the grading by them will not be impartial and can boost your C-Index.
Either way the C-Index is not showing the correct value of your photo. So my suggestion to all those who bother about C-Index is :"forget it".
What sometimes bugs me are the selections to the permanent group of photos. I compare some with some of my photos which didn't make the grade and "my impartial eyes" (lol) say mine are better. :)

I've not been here as long as some of you, but so far I've found the most helpful aspects of the site are:

(1) Looking a lot at other people's pictures, and (this is important) going back over the ones you thought you liked or didn't like - it's amazing how your view shifts over time! Something I thought very pretty suddenly looks very dull and lacking detail - and something I passed over as "not my thing" is full of vibrancy and detail, and ends up being one of my favourite desktops. The Favourites Gallery is a useful tool - and seeing lots of shots of similar subjects is also useful, because then you can compare. That pretty river shot with slight unintended grain and blown highlights, or that cracking professional river shot where you can see every twig and fleck of foam? It doesn't tell you how to do it, but gives you something to aim for. Maybe this is why we need more information on how people took or made their pictures - those are always useful, and it's frustrating when you wonder "what was the software?" and it doesn't say. Sometimes you ask in the comments and you don't get a response, either there or privately. We need more give and take on that side of things; more tutorials and so on. Anybody out there feel like writing a new tutorial? How about "how to get that cracking river shot?"

(2) Encouraging comments (whether or not there are critiques included) because I would soon get depressed if others got lots of comments for every post and I got nothing... maybe it's a human weakness, but otherwise it's like throwing stones into a black well and just hearing the 'kerplunk' of your own pebbles.

(3) Reading the discussion boards, FAQs and anything else on the site I can lay my mouse on. Looking for new software, techniques and so on.

I haven't found comments useful in themselves, and as Ramad and others say, the c-index doesn't communicate anything concrete - people could be using different averages; be in a high mood or a low mood; are in a rush; don't like your kind of art; aren't being serious in their voting (fly-by-night members?); are too young and inexperienced; their monitors are in serious need of an overhaul or whatever.... ;-). I've been looking at a lot of fuzzy pictures recently with high scores, and some rather lovely pictures with low scores. My own way of looking at things shifts - I'm sure it's the same with everybody else.

PS: something else about the voting... sometimes I voted high on something that looked good, then downloaded a full size version once I got out of the voting booth and discovered it was poorer quality than I thought - and vice versa.

That happens a lot too – especially on rips that look great at small size then you go look at the original and find out its been around the internet block. A lot.

1 - Lyn, my bad, I lost that part during my vacation days. Will plug brain back in.

2 - I've also had a situation where I rated something very highly thinking it was a piece of digital art that was particularly well done, only to find out that it was a photograph of a museum display that had been modified by the poster.

I would be very grateful for a critical opinion of this 37 scoring Sun Lights
:)

Lathough I think that shot is quite impressive, I see two possible problems when it comews to the voting booth; firstly, I think you should have left more room around the tulip as it seems a bit squeezed in to the frame. Obviously you have done this to show off the detail of the droplets etc. but it might be a bit overwhelming? And I think it would just work better as an image if it were more balanced. Secondly, I suspect that maybe people didn't realise what it was? Maybe they think it to be too flat and uninteresting (the flower I mean) or thought it was just plastic or something? I guess what I am saying is that the shot doesn't really "take advantage" of the flower (ie show it off). I still really like it but after the first impression I had a good look at it for a while and tried to figure out why people might vote low on it and that's what I came up with. Maybe it's just too unusual...

Thanks Sam - yes I see what you mean. I did not crop it - was just the way I took it I actually thought of cropping just part of the whole thing - a part with the drops on but then if people were confused as to what it was with all of it they perhaps would have been more so with just a partial view. So much for leaping about in the rain gettin my lens wet lol. I have a couple of other shots with more background but they did not show the little golden bits from the sun which was what I liked about this one. I may have another look at them and see if I can make a more pleasing picture. Jeepers, I even managed to resists a frame on this one !

What I meant below by someone liking it too much, Eve, is that I think there are a few people who vote good images low just because they are good images. I have no idea why, but that is what I think.

Then again, it could be someone liked it too much. I thought it was going to be a well accepted shot for it's sheer beauty and color. Or, it could be because it's a flower. Dumb, I know. but I think some people grade more based on subject sometimes than on image quality, composition, beauty, etc.

It's everso phallic Lyn! Maybe it was nuns voting that day.

I think Sam's right, it's a bit jammed into the frame. Also I'm not sure the shape's too appealing at that angle and the colours are a bit 'blocky'. You got great comments though. Maybe we should just do away with the C-index and have done with it.

We tried that briefly once and all the mods got perforated eardrums from the shrieking & howling that followed.

About criticisms, I think the best is to give our positive and negative critics on the image page itself.

ok.. Here's my pic to pick at.. As you all know i'm anti-"C" however a few people have pointed out the drop in the "C" on my As They Sail Into The Sunset Link It started off with an 88 its now a 69, the comments are all positive.. and the funny thing is on another site, it has massive views and its been sold a few times.. so it just goes to show.. DONT take notice of the "C" INDEX

Hi Jacqueline

I've just had a look and there's nothing negative I can think of to say. The only thing I suppose is if someone doesn't like sunsets. It's a great shot, and iconic at that. I can easily imagine it being a hit, and selling.

This great tumbling C index is a mystery isn't it. One of mine just fell 4 points after getting a 17th vote. I even had to change my avatar to show what trying to figure it all out is doing to me!

Nigel – the vote/score display situations has been explained before but if you missed it – here it is in brief:

The number of votes cast updates almost instantly in your control panel but the displayed score is only tallied once every 24 hours or so and updated then. One extra vote does not change your score – the cumulative votes over a predetermined period do.

I am in agreement with much that has been written above. I am a novice. I see with the eyes I was given and the knowlegdge I have gained since being here. And, I vote. I vote nearly everyday. I look at positioning, color, geometric lines and figures, and I look to see if the picture is pleasing to me. Am I qualified to vote? In this system I am. However, often I am not as talented nor as knowledgable as the person I am viewing.

When I post, I concentrate on three things from the viewing community; 1) how many have viewed my picture; 2) how many have downloaded my picture; 3) how fast did the numbers increase on 1 and 2. This review tells me how well generally my work has been accepted and if my work is successful or not. I do, also look at the C-Index because to me, it is a critique of my work. It is a point total from the artests here at Caedes whom I respect and admire.

As for leaving comments, I am as guilty as most in that I try to leave only positive remarks. I do try to be encouraging to new and young members. I have also been guilty in not commenting on works for which I cannot find anything good to say.