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Live after dead?

PuMa
07/16/04 12:13 AM GMT
Well?
What do you think? (Or know?)

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mimi5947
07/18/04 4:20 AM GMT
I want to be the kitty cats that live in my house & have slaves-not masters!!! :))
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Always, Mimi
tbhockey
07/18/04 6:19 PM GMT
agreed, hnsq
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-tbhockey
noobguy
07/18/04 7:11 PM GMT
Q: for christians involving heaven

It is said that if you do not believe in god you cannot go to heaven

So say you are a really good person, but have not accepted the christian faith. By this thought you would be a good person condemned to hell. This troubles me. Doesnt seem like justice, if God is "good", and christianity is "good", why would such an idea exist?

What do you think?

just a thought :)

Mayne: what do you think your doggies would say to you if they could communicate with ya eh?

oh nvm: woof
:/
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Digital_Angel
07/18/04 7:55 PM GMT
lol, darryl
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--Finding My Place and Person-- *~Angel~*
tbhockey
07/18/04 8:04 PM GMT
Noobguy: God isn't obligated to send anyone to heaven at all. Only by his grace can we get there. And he said you have to believe in him, he didn't say you have to be a good person. What im saying is, God should send us all to hell because we are sinful, but he decided to give us a choice.
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-tbhockey
+Samatar
07/19/04 12:21 AM GMT
Noob: I agree with you. I also agree with PM that religion can be used as a device for controlling the masses. What could be better than inventing an all powerful, all seeing being that can read your mind? A decree that states that it isn't good enough to just do what we say, you have to beleive it too. Kind of like the thought police or big brother (if you haven't read 1984 I suggest you do so). Now I'm not saying that all religion is created with this goal, but it has certainly been used/exploited to this end all throughout history.
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
::mayne
07/19/04 1:00 AM GMT
Anthony my dogs communicate all the time with me. It is like learning any language...once the basics are down conversation is easy. I like it when they ask for BBQ steak...it makes me smile:-)
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Darryl
prismmagic
07/19/04 1:24 AM GMT
noobguy : The christian Faith is not the only faith. it is a western culture faith. The bible does not condeme the unfaihful it actualy excepts the unfaithful as ingnorent and the bible states that the that they also will go to heaven.
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Art is the perception of the creator. Meaning is the perception of the viewer. acceptance is the perception of society.
noobguy
07/19/04 4:02 AM GMT
prismmagic, I know there are a multitude of religions. my question was specifically for the christian faith (the dominant faith where I live)
I have never heard of what you say where the unfaithful are accepted into heaven, ever. I have talked to many people about this and most believe that you must accept God in order to be accepted to their idea of heaven, as tbhockey suggested. What I want to ask Tony is that if he truly believes that good people, or as u say all people whould be sent to hell? Would you send a truly good person to be tortured for eternity, simply because he has not excepted a faith, this seems fair to you?

I am agnostic, I dont know what to believe in. I think atheism takes about as much faith as any common religion. I am still searching for something to believe or disbelieve.

I once had a conversation with someone at our school promoting their church. He asked me if I thought that anything was possible since I was agnostic. I of course replied yes, and that I have no way of telling whats not possible. He told me God does not allow poople who have not embrassed him into heaven, whether they are good or not. And that you would be sent to hell, if you were to never convert. He told me that if there is the possibility that he is right I should convert to his faith, therefore if he is right I go to heaven and if not It wouldnt hurt me.

This is the kind of propaganda that has kept me from accepting a faith for many years. What do you think?

Mayne: Yours dogs are treated man, I want a piece! :p

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A change in Point of View: 1 2 3 4 ... more to come. Ideas?
+Samatar
07/19/04 4:13 AM GMT
I think the way you live shouldn't be motivated by fear. It should be motivated by what you beleive is right. If you compromise your own conscience because you are afraid of punishment for doing what you think is right, it would be rather cowardly, wouldn't it?
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
prismmagic
07/19/04 5:45 AM GMT
I really don't want to get involbed in this one because I have a tendance to piss people off. But I a realist. so take it as input. and lets get back to the subjet of after life not religion.

Religion is not a pre-requisite to morality or the ability that you can treat another person or as far as that goes kindly. Or as far as that; right from wrong. It is only common since to not screw over your neighbor or to not kill some one, just because you can get away with it.
A basic since of survival itself tells you that you need each other to survive. But you will find that absolute power does corrupt and there then lies the problem. You can only become so wealthy and powerful before it becomes redundant. In that you will develop more enemies then you will allies. And in this I feel that even the Pope could be judged harshly if his need out weighed those of the people.
I truly think it is the pour morality of man and his needs that is our true judge . If you choose to believe in the teaching of a religion you will find that in most the judgment is left to the deity more then the parishioner of the faith and that the true judgment is for it to choose rather then the other way around. Religion as well as politics is more the realm of the culture. So in your heart you must realize that judgment, if there is such a thing is more for the Divine not the mortal to decide. Spending your life in fear of judgment of a truly loving God is a travesty in itself. Don’t you agree? Life is to be lived as best as you can! Not in fear of judgment by a deity that is as fallible as the beings that it created. Take the law of free choice.
Would a God truly give a race of creature’s freedom of choice if he were all seeing if he really new our nature?
I feel that you are truly your own judge and that you decide your own merit when it comes to your own fears of death and judgment. After all you are truly the only person who can decide if you have lived a full and just life. Not that of a religious representative that is giving you last right at your deathbed. You are the only true judge of your worth and right or wrong.
So to answer you question noobguy, know one can know your heart but you. And know religious representative who himself is fallible can't judge your heart or soul if you choose to believe in one. After the bible itself says that it is not to be interpreted by unlearned. And that most of it is taught in fragments to the parishioners' and that it is used more for control then enlightenment. Christ himself’ said that you need not give of wealth to belong to the kingdom of God. But yet churches require tribute to be part of there sect and to be allowed into the kingdom of God. He also said you will find me under every rock, under every leaf and every twig. And in that he’s saying he is everywhere. He is the tree, he is the rock, and he is the air.
So what it comes down to; is you are your own judge. I myself do not need a religion to teach me right from wrong or to tell me to give to my neighbor. Or to pick up a person that has fallen. I can not count how many times I’ve seen a religious person pass a starving person and look down there righteous nose as if they where better then them, and yet I would help them by giving them money or going home and bring them back a blanket or one of my jackets to help them stay warm on a cold night.
So will I be passed over for being an realist and havind douhts? Personally I don’t give a dam. And if I was to go to a hell. I would just make it a better place and piss every one off there to.
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Art is the perception of the creator. Meaning is the perception of the viewer. acceptance is the perception of society.
noobguy
07/19/04 8:21 AM GMT
Agree with Sam and Clayton. You both said the same thing but in different ways. Very well spoken prism.
Umm, its really late and I cant think but I'll try to articulate none the less.

There are alot of problems with mainstream religion. Most everyone can agree with this, even the most devout. Its almost illogical in this age not to think for yourself and come up with your own beliefs and your own self standard. I think very few follow their faith, or their church, or their bible, to the tee.

The base idea, or need, for a faith is for comfort and security. The idea that we will live on beyond our mortal lives, rather than ceasing to exist in any form, is a very comforting thought. The idea that there is a world beyond this world and our world was created from this gives our universe "meaning" rather than just being a bunch of floating molecules.

Whether we made these ideas up in our head to give ourselves security, or these ideas in some form are true, they are necessary to our existance. I dont think that the world would function very well if everyone believed they are meaningless. There would be no reason to live.

The problem comes in when by nature, humans make things more complicated than they need to be. Thus creating religion, a set of ideas, laws, history, etc. Having central religions allows ppl to come together and share their ideas and beliefs.

Even if there are parts of your faith that you do not agree with, people accept this bad with the good. After all, the world cant be perfect, neither can religion. A perfect idea seems even more false then one with flaws right? A wise woman ( ;) ) once explained to me that religion is like marraige, you love your faith like you love your partner and except and deal with the bad because it comes with the good.


I dont believe that religion is a bad thing, but I truly think that you cant believe or disbelieve something fully if you dont constantly question yourself. There shouldnt be such a thing as blind faith. Unfortunately I've taken this idea to the extreme and I am always questioning. I think that anything is possible and there is no way for me to know whats true and not true.

Right now I think that whether or not there is an afterlife, or we are judged, or whatever. As the two above me stated in a way, If you just life your life to your own good standards. And do what you think is right, and be a good person you should be alright in the end. Maybe you'll make better tasting worm food haha.

Oh and I think Clayton and I should make a trip to hell with some ice water, and A/C units.
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A change in Point of View: 1 2 3 4 ... more to come. Ideas?
mum42
07/19/04 11:13 AM GMT
I read a quote once - GK Chesterton or similar?
something like this.

"I'm not sure whether or not I believe in God. Just so long as he believes in me!"

made me smile.
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never give up
prismmagic
07/19/04 2:45 PM GMT
To mum 42: I've alway had a problem in believing in something I can't see or communicate with and I have always felt the same way.

I will think more possitively of his exsistance when he chooses to believe mine.
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Art is the perception of the creator. Meaning is the perception of the viewer. acceptance is the perception of society.
Digital_Angel
07/19/04 3:10 PM GMT
OK, I just have a comment/question. Where did the first building blocks of life come from? I mean, people say that it started with a single cell, but then where did that come from? It's somewhat an endless cycle, and thus you have to admit that there was a creator. A good example of this I think would be of everyone's art work on here. It didn't just show up one day in PS, you worked with tools and your imagination to create it.

One thing that many people have said to this is, "Where did God come from?" well He's God, He needs no creator. It's just another one of those things our minds can't possibly comprehend, and thus we make up things that sound plausable so satisfy our own mind, and then create the lie that we're in control of our lives.

But back to the subject of life after death. For people who deny God's existence, they'll go to hell. It's just the way God had things made. I mean, I know a ton of awesome people who don't know Him and it's heart-breaking to know that they'll go to hell if they don't do anything about it. Another thing that hurts me to know, is that people also buy into the lie that hell's going to be some big party. If your idea of a party is unimaginable pain and suffering, then i guess that thought would be correct.

As for religeons being exploited, unfourtunetly it's very true. Many people make Christianity seem like it's all easy and non-complicated, full of love-happy "brainwashed" people, and an easy answer to all of life's problems. But the fact of the matter is, it's one of the hardest things to live. I'm living proof of that. In fact, believing in something you cannot physically see/hear/feel is one of the hardest realities to beleive because our brains are so drawn to us being in control, that it's extremely hard to accept that something, especially something we can't see, is in control of our lives.

Just how I feel. Here's my testimony for anyone who's interested in why I love/beleive in God so much http://www.freewebs.com/digital_angel2/mytestimony.htm
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--Finding My Place and Person-- *~Angel~*
::philcUK
07/19/04 3:29 PM GMT
This is exactly why organised religion is so very wrong - how can you say people who don’t believe in god will go to hell? That’s a very fatuous, inaccurate and borderline cruel thing to say. Religion in any form has to be a very personal state of being and no religion has the right to pass judgement on others who do not follow their beliefs. I turn on the news every day and see lots of innocent people starving to death, getting blown up, kidnapped, beheaded, raped, murdered and molested and they sure don’t look like they are been saved from their suffering by Jesus or any other god for that matter.
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"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
Digital_Angel
07/19/04 3:59 PM GMT
I'm not the one who said that people would go to hell, God is. I'm not the one judging it, God is. But He has that right because He's God. I was a victim of molestation and rape. And no, God didn't come down in some big light and "save" me. And I don't know if anyone could say that's it's just chance that God brought someone into my life that made me want to live again, literally the day before I was going to commit suicide. But as a sinner, I deserve so much worse than I got. And it's only by God's grace that that's all you see on the news. Thing's would be a LOT worse if God didn't care.

Puma: And who's going to heaven or who's going to hell? If you believe in heaven there's also a hell, right? But, if you take a serial-killer.. most people saying; he's going to hell.. but, if he already had 40 years in jail, isn't that already enough judgement?

If that serial-killer repents for his sins, then he'll go to heaven. On the flip side, imagine someone who "does everything right" in life (which in itself is a lie) and they don't repent for their sins against the God who made them, then they'll go to hell. It's God's words, not mine. So don't kill the messenger.
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--Finding My Place and Person-- *~Angel~*
=xentrik
07/19/04 5:12 PM GMT
noobguy: "you love your faith like you love your partner and except and deal with the bad because it comes with the good."

It's been my experience here on Earth that all that bad stuff you ignored is all that's left at the end. Thus this is not a good argument to bring about faith from me. =D

Sorry for not adding anything useful or relevant to this topic. :-p
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noobguy
07/19/04 5:23 PM GMT
so by digital_angel's logic, a serial killer who "repents" goes to heaven and lives eternity in bliss, and a down to earth, good person who has lived their life without "sin", but has not accepted god gets tortured in hell for eternity.

You say this is the word of God, and you are just relaying it. This is just your belief, the fact that you can accept this idea blindly and defend it as the right thing amazes me...
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A change in Point of View: 1 2 3 4 ... more to come. Ideas?
Digital_Angel
07/19/04 5:34 PM GMT
See, the thing is, no one can live their life w/o sin. In some way or another everyone sins, no matter how "good" they are. So to say that someone has lived their life w/o it is a lie in itself. And I don't blindly accept this. Read the Bible, it can defend itself much better than I. If you do take up my suggestion, I would read Ecclisiasties.
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--Finding My Place and Person-- *~Angel~*
noobguy
07/19/04 5:36 PM GMT
tell me where/how to find Ecclisiasties

of course no one is perfect, but you get the idea to the extreme case, horrible person repents=heaven, good person does not=hell

can I ask you, do you personally feel that this idea is the "right" thing?
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A change in Point of View: 1 2 3 4 ... more to come. Ideas?
Digital_Angel
07/19/04 5:38 PM GMT
http://netbible.bible.org/ the 21st book on the left panel

And to answer your question, if it was me, in all honesty I wouldn't let them go to heaven, but God letting them go to heaven shows how much He loves us. He doesn't care what race you are or your past, He loves you because He made you. It's not a popularity contest. He accepts you if you accept Him.
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--Finding My Place and Person-- *~Angel~*
hnsq
07/19/04 5:39 PM GMT
prism...i dont really have the time to respond to all of your post, so i will just pick out bits and pieces. you asked, "Would a God truly give a race of creature’s freedom of choice if he were all seeing if he really new our nature?" God wants us to love him completely, unconditionally, but to love like that, it must be done by free will. you cant force someone to love you.

"Spending your life in fear of judgment of a truly loving God is a travesty in itself. Don’t you agree? Life is to be lived as best as you can! Not in fear of judgment by a deity that is as fallible as the beings that it created."

there is no fear of judgement, God doesnt expect us to be perfect people. we just have to believe in him and his son, and we go to heaven. no "innocent" people are going to hell. all sin is equal in God's eyes, meaning lying to your parents is just as bad as murder. a sin is a sin. no one is sinnless.

sorry i dont have time to read through this thread more, but i should have some more time later this week.
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"Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a bananna" -unknown
noobguy
07/19/04 5:54 PM GMT
digital angel, i was refering to if you agree to the fact that this person is accepted to heaven (which I would also allow) while the good person is condemned (which i think is ridiculous)

Thanks for the link
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A change in Point of View: 1 2 3 4 ... more to come. Ideas?
noobguy
07/19/04 5:56 PM GMT
btw I am not attacking your beliefs, just trying to understand them
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A change in Point of View: 1 2 3 4 ... more to come. Ideas?
Digital_Angel
07/19/04 6:06 PM GMT
Well, I would like to apologize if I'm sounding defensive. I'm not meaning to, but about me agreeing with the good person, the thing about that is, no one is truely good, so for that I do agree. I think hnsq put it very nicely. "all sin is equal in God's eyes, meaning lying to your parents is just as bad as murder. a sin is a sin. no one is sinnless." So yes.
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--Finding My Place and Person-- *~Angel~*
::philcUK
07/19/04 6:13 PM GMT
i think to avoid any further confusion we should get this thread back on topic as life after death is a theory that isnt exclusive to any one particular religion and it's in danger of getting bogged down in dogma - sound ok?
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"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
Digital_Angel
07/19/04 6:16 PM GMT
Good point, although all of it's related ;)
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--Finding My Place and Person-- *~Angel~*
noobguy
07/19/04 6:20 PM GMT
Good point phil, as my understanding we are talking about who would get accepted to heaven, realted to life after death no? Come now its a discussion, topics get distorted :-p


I wonder whos fault that is
;)
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A change in Point of View: 1 2 3 4 ... more to come. Ideas?
::CaptainHero
07/19/04 8:25 PM GMT
I think people like to believe in life after death (surely an oxymoron?) because they can't handle the fact that just maybe there is absolutely nothing at all.

That is the whole point of all these belief systems (secular or religious) - to provide a staff for their adherents to lean upon because they can't deal with the fact that life is ultimately random, brutal and arbitary. It takes some guts to admit that everything you believe in has only the token value that you yourself ascribe to it. Much easier to appeal to some other authority: 'God said so..'; 'Freud said so...'; 'Marx said so...'; 'It's been scientifically proven...';

To go back to the question: life after death? I haven't a clue! (by the standards of my sig below, does this make me wise...?)
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
Digital_Angel
07/19/04 8:27 PM GMT
In light of the last comment. Where did everything come from?
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--Finding My Place and Person-- *~Angel~*
::CaptainHero
07/19/04 9:36 PM GMT
Everything....?

As in life, the universe and everything?
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
Digital_Angel
07/19/04 10:56 PM GMT
yes
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--Finding My Place and Person-- *~Angel~*
+Samatar
07/19/04 11:17 PM GMT
But by the same token, I could ask where did god come from...
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
Digital_Angel
07/20/04 1:56 AM GMT
He's God, He doesn't need a creator. It's one of those things that's beyond our understanding. He is outside time and our physical/mental boundaries
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--Finding My Place and Person-- *~Angel~*
+Samatar
07/20/04 2:03 AM GMT
Okay, then just replace "God" with "Big Bang" or whatever and you have your answer. My point is that those sort of questions has no relevance because there is no answer in either case.
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
::noobguy
07/20/04 2:04 AM GMT
These are all questions that can be flipped. If Digital Angel says that God created the earth, and no one created God he is beyond our understanding, Sam could easily say that the universe started on its own, no one created it, its one of those things thats beyond our understanding.

Not to make things difficult, heh.
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A change in Point of View: 1 2 3 4 ... more to come. Ideas?
::noobguy
07/20/04 2:06 AM GMT
apparently I was a few seconds too slow :p
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A change in Point of View: 1 2 3 4 ... more to come. Ideas?
Digital_Angel
07/20/04 2:20 AM GMT
The thing with that is though, everything in matter has to have the building blocks of some form of life. The universe couldn't have started on it's own, it's not physically possible. As for the "Big Bang" theory, many scientists have discarded it because an explosion of that size would be more likely to destroy rather than create. Another thing. Where did the particles come from? Where did the atoms/cells/ect. that created it all come from?
Again, God needs no creator, because He is the creator. Beyond space and time.
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--Finding My Place and Person-- *~Angel~*
prismmagic
07/20/04 2:26 AM GMT
You know Guys when I posted my first too opinions they where not to start a religious controversy. They where to answer some of noobguy’ concerns on the issue of judgment.
But as usual every thing gets back to politics or religion. We as humans
Need to realize that life is to short to condemn some one for their beliefs and that if there truly is a God. It is its job to make that decision.


There a good line in the a movie called dragon fly where Kevin kostner is trying to stop a teen age girl from wanting to kill her self. She says why did you stop me? All I want to do is die and go to a better place. There has to be a better place then this. He say are you sure there is a better place then this or is there a place at all. Its fine to have people say there is a heaven but unless your absolutely sure you better re-think the one you live in as being it, As he was say this to a the girl a priest was walking in. The priest was very upset for him saying this and Kevin Kostner said rebuttal father. Now think about it so many people kill themselves because the want to go to a better place. But yet know one re-turns to say for sure there is a better place. Put yet we indulge ourselves with the belief that there is through religion and yet they tell us it is wrong to commit suicide.

How do you know this isn’t heaven or hell and maybe both and what it really comes down to is what you do with it.

Now as far as where did the matter come from to create the universe? The new theories have to do with quantum physics and the possibly of multiple universes that at one point collided to create the present known universe.
I personally feel that we a product of seeded amino acids that where distributed do to several super nova. Base amino acids can live in outer space for a long time and easily be distributed throughout the universe. This does not mean that there is know God! To me it just means that there are defiantly higher forms of intelligent in the universe. Weather they are God, as we know it or just a more advanced race. I do not deny that there is a God. I just have seen no proof a hand to say that there is.
And as far as the bible goes man wrote it and almost all of the text of the Christine text was taken from other religion and altered to fit the western way of thinking. Most religion started with the Astor zoologist. And then from the Greek and Egyptian mythologies and then translated it to the Jewish and Christian text as need to fit.

The bible again does not state that all who do not believe in god will not go to heaven. It again states that the ignorant will be among the blessed. For they no not any better.
Again I will tell every one to pick up the video By Joseph Campbell (The power of Myth) and learn a little about the beginnings of religion and the mythology behind it. He does not state that there is no god but how we came about to believe in him.

Know can we get back to the true subject the possibility of life after death.
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Art is the perception of the creator. Meaning is the perception of the viewer. acceptance is the perception of society.
tbhockey
07/20/04 2:38 AM GMT
Prism: (in response to your 1st parahraph) Eternity is too long not to..
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-tbhockey
Digital_Angel
07/20/04 2:38 AM GMT
I don't mean to sound like i'm trying to be contriversial or obstitant. But to clarify something, the bible wasn't written by men. It was given to men through God. As for the physics, you still have to ask yourself where it came from, and i do understand you're not saying there's no God. But one thing that troubles me is that you said that you've seen no evidence of God. But look around you. Look at the earth you live on and the universe that we live within. Look at your own body. Clayton, you're a photographer, look at how complex everything is. To me every day is a blessing that I don't deserve. As for life after death, God states that there is for everyone, but only those who accept Him will go to heaven. All of this is very relevent to the subject.
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--Finding My Place and Person-- *~Angel~*
tbhockey
07/20/04 2:40 AM GMT
oh and on your last big paragraph "The bible again does not state..." Read Revelation 20: 11-15
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-tbhockey
Digital_Angel
07/20/04 2:49 AM GMT
One thing that I would like to add. When the bible says the ignorant will be blessed, i feel it's not talking about people who won't accept God, it's talking about people who can't possibly understand. ie. mentally disabled, young children. Those would be the ignorent because they can't understand past their bounds
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--Finding My Place and Person-- *~Angel~*
prismmagic
07/20/04 3:53 AM GMT
I originally posted another statement here but out of the respect of the others and there beliefs I have chosen to with draw it. I truly feel that every one has the right to believe what they wish, including those of us that have the courage to question faith, and its beginnings in mythology.
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Art is the perception of the creator. Meaning is the perception of the viewer. acceptance is the perception of society.
::philcUK
07/20/04 8:40 AM GMT
and i think that should be the last wise words on the subject as the topic has lost its focus and, as predicted, has just degenerated into a spiral of religious dogma that is, quite frankly, going nowhere fast.
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"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
::JOHANNA
07/20/04 9:00 AM GMT
Sure, there is live ater dead.I am sure for 100%.
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Carpe diem.
tbhockey
07/20/04 10:36 AM GMT
philcUK: or are you sure it just isn't cause you don't wanna face the truth?
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-tbhockey
::noobguy
07/20/04 10:42 AM GMT
agree with phil, the debate is very circular, as most on this topic
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A change in Point of View: 1 2 3 4 5 ... more to come. Ideas?
::philcUK
07/20/04 10:44 AM GMT
tony - please dont take this the wrong way but your kind of answer is the prime example of why a discussion like this is futile.
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"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
tbhockey
07/20/04 10:50 AM GMT
i wasn't trying to be offensive, I was just asking a question
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-tbhockey
::philcUK
07/20/04 11:00 AM GMT
i understand that - but i believe i've made my feelings abundently clear on the matter already. i was merely suggesting that when a discussion like this gets so heavily embedded in religious doctrine there is simply no way out if it productivly as people who hold strong convictions whatever there religion are rarely likely to sway from the path they follow and more often than not unprepared to accept any other point of view. again i stress this is not a personal reflection on anyone here - it's just a considered observation on how these things invariably turn out.
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"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
tbhockey
07/20/04 11:07 AM GMT
that's probably true
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-tbhockey
Digital_Angel
07/20/04 4:03 PM GMT
well, i suppose this is already clear lol, but i whole-heartedly believe in life after death. I have questioned it before, but the facts always showed themselves to me. Sorry if this got somewhat out of hand, lol, probably a lot my fault. oh well :) I still love all of ya!
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--Finding My Place and Person-- *~Angel~*
::CaptainHero
07/20/04 6:37 PM GMT
Have to agree - the discussion is pointless once it gets dogmatic. Religion by it's nature (like many belief systems) is essentially experiential. As such, it is pretty much impossible to debate the issue.

When examining such discussions critically, you will always find somewhere an assumed premise or a supposed a priori statement that the debater is unable or unwilling to explore or even completely unaware of.

Having gained an honours degree in Philosophy and Politics, I have a habit of sometimes picking things apart. However, it seems to me that everything is ultimately arbitrary and we try desperately to impose order on a chaotic universe.

I think it takes real strength to recognise that one's own ideas, principles, beliefs are based on something completely capricious, erratic, maybe even fanciful or whimsical. In other words, we have to all hold our hands up and admit that we may in fact be completely and utterly wrong and there is no outward authority we can appeal to.

Anyway, that's my thoughts...(just like to say it was't aimed specifically at anyone, in case someone reads it and finds it offensive!).
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
Digital_Angel
07/20/04 8:44 PM GMT
Well, although I don't agree, I do respect your point of view, as well as everyone elses.

I would just say that the best thing to do is to respect everyone's belief/non-belief and end the discussion, because to continue would be pretty much pointless. Otherwise we'll end up getting in some huge argument and it would just divide everyone as a whole.

Just one statement though. I believe what I do because of the evidence it's produced in my own life, so to say there is no evidence to me personally is a lie because it's all around me. But I do respect other's opinions and that's all I have to say.
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@}~~Faith is the substance of things hoped for. The evidence of things not seen~~{@ *~Angel~*
+Samatar
07/20/04 11:07 PM GMT
This topic has already been debated to death in these forums anyway. If you go back a few pages you will find several extremely heated discussions which IMO probably shouldn't be revived.
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
PuMa
07/21/04 12:42 AM GMT
Sorry,
didn't know.
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** If you try to fail and you succeed, then which of the two did you do?
+Samatar
07/21/04 2:29 AM GMT
Well Puma, not the topic of life after death, but the topic of religion v science/scepticism, which is what this disussion has become.
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
LiquidguitarJP
07/23/04 6:00 AM GMT
God is real. I know. Heaven is real. ..unfortunatly there is hell and satan.. There is good in this world but there is so much evil that no one sees. I only read about half way down the page with comments so now im just say what i Believe. There is an afterlife whether it is Heaven or Hell or each person is God's decesion. And when that Judement Day that there was talk of comes ..well its only a matter of Time. I am a Catholic Chistian and that talk of Just Believing in God is enough to be "saved" is a bunch of malarcy. It is a Protisan veiw that was developed by Martin Luther from the Middle Ages and how can you think that just believing in God is enough. Sure its the first step but you cant just go through life without doing any good deeds even if you're not Christian its just not right.

And if you go through life not accepting the Christian Faith and you are a "good person" Anthony will you go to Heaven? you ask us Christians? How are we to Know? Thats between the person and God. Even Christians can go to hell. But God is real and you all need to see that. Jesus is our proof. As well as Life.


"Because I Believe"
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Without Love...Without Trust...Without Hope and most importantly....Without Faith There will Be No Journey Back. ...§Carpe Diem§…
LiquidguitarJP
07/23/04 6:01 AM GMT
yes Sam I was thinking the same thing.
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Without Love...Without Trust...Without Hope and most importantly....Without Faith There will Be No Journey Back. ...§Carpe Diem§…
tbhockey
07/23/04 11:46 AM GMT
Good deeds mean nothing. "All are righteosness are as filthy rags"
Read Acts 16:31 and John 3:16
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-tbhockey
LiquidguitarJP
07/23/04 2:50 PM GMT
Tony, I agreed with most of what you have said through this discustion until now.

So what you're saying is that we should believe in God (which is done for me) and go around living life not helping people??!? That's awful for one but according to you that all we need to get to Heaven is to believe in God.

Why can't we just help some people out on the side ...what you're saying pretty much just sounds like your lazy.

And I'm just saying my Point not trying to attack yours.
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Without Love...Without Trust...Without Hope and most importantly....Without Faith There will Be No Journey Back. ...§Carpe Diem§…
tbhockey
07/23/04 4:42 PM GMT
im not trying to attack yours either. Im just telling you what the Bible says. And yes, that is all you HAVE to do to go to heaven. But you should do "good deeds" and help put other (following Christs example) but it is not required. You just will not be rewarded in heaven.
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-tbhockey
LiquidguitarJP
07/23/04 4:58 PM GMT
ok now im asking because im not sure what you were saying so are you saying that if you believe you will go to heaven and if you believe and do good deeds you wont? or if you dont believe and do good deeds you wont (which is what i think is right, if you dont believe you dont go to Heaven however it is indeed between them and God we do not know for sure).
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Without Love...Without Trust...Without Hope and most importantly....Without Faith There will Be No Journey Back. ...§Carpe Diem§…
tbhockey
07/23/04 5:13 PM GMT
no no. If you believe you will go to heaven. If you believe and do good deeds you will also go to heaven. If you don't believe and don't do good deeds, you will not go to heaven. If you don't belive and DO good deeds, you still won't go to heaven. The good deeds part isn't in the equation.
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-tbhockey
stuffnstuff
07/23/04 5:20 PM GMT
I believe in life after death, positively. I also agree with Tony's last remark. This discussion could cause more debate that the Bush vs. Kerry forum, but it seems more people feel open to express opinion on that one because they know more about that. PM me if you have questions, otherwise I wont bother to explain my thoughts.
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-to live between the stones and walk in His dust, this is my task-
151515
07/25/04 6:18 PM GMT
The reason this discussion has become a big argument is because Christians believe that it's their duty to teach the Word of God to non-believers and save them, so it's kind of hard to just sit there silently while someone explains why they don't believe in God. I wish I found this discussion earlier, as I was reading it, I would have liked to respond to some of the comments, but it's too late now. I'll just ask one thing, though: when you say that you've seen no evidence of God, prismmagic, what do you think about Jesus? That he was just some nut that claimed he was the son of God and he rose again on accident or something? Just a question- I'm not attacking or anything.
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~*~Therese~*~
::CaptainHero
07/25/04 8:54 PM GMT
Surely proof denies faith? The whole point in religious belief (I am theorising, as I've never seen the attraction, myself) is to subscribe to it unconditionally. There seems little point discussing whether God exists or whether Jesus was real - to a believer they simply must exist.

As a footnote, though, there is little evidence that Jesus existed as depicted in the bible. There are various different people that fit some parts of the profile and lived at about the right time. There is a similar amount of evidence to suggest that King Arthur or Robin Hood may have existed.

Like I said, there seems little point in calling on historical data to back up experiential religion - such an approach is full of pitfalls. Better for a believer just to say 'God does exist and leave it at that.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
151515
07/26/04 1:33 AM GMT
I didn't say I needed proof, but he said he hadn't seen any evidence of God in his life, so I gave him some. Sometimes to persuade a non-believer, you have to use evidence, because they're definately not going to believe you if you tell them "He just exists. Believe it." As for if Jesus actually existed, that's a whole different debate and I don't want to get too far off subject.
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~*~Therese~*~
::noobguy
07/26/04 1:50 AM GMT
You didnt give him proof, you gave him what you see as proof. You say Jesus's rebirth is proof of God's existance. How can something that has no evidence provide evidence. I didnt comment it on it before, but I had to since you brough it up again.
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::CaptainHero
07/26/04 5:50 PM GMT
Yes indeed, noobguy. It is a non-starter as an argument. It reminds me a little of St Anselm's ontological argument for God's existence: no greater being than God can be conceived to exist, to not exist would be less than perfect, therefore God must exist. Quite a funny little argument. Anyway, I am wondering off track a little.

As I've already mentioned, there is little point in debating this because it relies on people's beliefs. When you break things down far enough you usually find that your own beliefs rest on absolutely nothing. Quite scary really.

Still, it's nice to have these debates every so often.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
June
07/27/04 2:40 AM GMT
It is all written in the Bible and I believe!!!
JuneBug
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"I'm On Top Of The World!"
151515
07/27/04 8:09 PM GMT
Look at yourself. Can you honestly tell yourself that a living thing as complex as a human being was created on accident? We can think, feel emotion, imagine, dream, invent, learn, and laugh... That eagles, wolves, cats, and insects were created from atoms and it all just fit together perfectly- the bigger animals eat the smaller ones and keep them from over populating, the smaller animals eat plants, etc. and all these animals and plants manage to stay in perfect balance (if it weren't for humans, destroying everything), water will never disapear because of the water cycle, trees and plants provide oxygen for all living things... you get my point. Can you really tell yourself that all of this was created by a big bang millions of years ago? and it just happened to create a perfect, balanced environment for thousands of different species to live for this long and not fail? Please consider this at least as evidence and seriously think about it.
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~*~Therese~*~
::noobguy
07/27/04 8:12 PM GMT
...

even if it wasnt created by a "big bang", whats to say it was created by an all mighty, all powerful, all knowing being, thats everywhere at once, and needs no creator.

both of these ideas require faith :/, before criticizing another faith, make sure you realize how hard to believe yours can look as well

...
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151515
07/27/04 8:25 PM GMT
which one makes more sense to you? I'm just asking and if I offended you or anyone else, I'm sorry that's not what I intended to do.
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~*~Therese~*~
::noobguy
07/27/04 8:44 PM GMT
<-not offended
it doesnt matter which makes more sense to me, the point is that both can be looked as pretty out there ideas. Therefore saying that another idea seems silly is not a very good defense or support for your belief.
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+Samatar
07/28/04 11:59 PM GMT
IMO 151515, you resolve your own arguement. According to the bible, god created man in his own image, to command over all the creatures of the earth (I forget the exact wording but that's basically what it says). So why is it that gods ultimate creation, the only one deemed worthy of an afterlife, the only one created in his image etc. is also the only one that doesn't fit into natures balance? Besides, evolution explains very well for me how all creatures have developed and adapted to be able to fit perfectly into, and exploit all areas and ecosystems of the environment; and personally I find that much more satisfying than just explaining it all away by saying that the big guy upstairs just waved his hand and made it all happen in seven days. I could ask you the questions, why do humans have tailbones, toes, an appendix and other redundant organts and body parts, unless we evolved? Why do some snakes have evidence of now useless legs? Why do creatures that live underground and never see daylight have eyes that are completely blind? I don't know what your explanation is but evolution makes perfect sense to me. Yet many christians deny it simply because a book says that god made Eve out of Adams rib. And there are other stories in the bible, such as Noahs Ark, that christians accept as fact, which I find impossible to believe because they just don't make logical sense. Don't get me wrong, I accept that there are many valid lessons in the bible, but I consider these type of stories to be more like a parable than to be taken as fact. Maybe there are flaws to some scientific explanations, but as noobguy said there are certainly flaws to many religious teachings aswell. I can accept that I don't know/have all the answers. But it seems to me that many religious people cannot. They expect me to accept their beleifs just because they said so, or because it is written down somewhere, without any real evidence or even a real reason.

I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in these debates after the last time, but I'm afraid my willpower failed me :-). Anyway those are my thoughts and I hope they don't upset anyone. Hopefully I won't feel the need to drone on any further after this.
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
+Piner
07/29/04 1:37 AM GMT
Hey Sam, I have more willpower then you, I haven't spoken in this disscussion.
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The work of art may have a moral effect, but to demand moral purpose from an artist is to make him ruin his work. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe - 1832)
+Piner
07/29/04 1:39 AM GMT
Oh drat, I just invalidated that last statement by posting it. :c/
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The work of art may have a moral effect, but to demand moral purpose from an artist is to make him ruin his work. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe - 1832)
::noobguy
07/29/04 2:15 AM GMT
I wasnt gonna post, but 1515s statements bothered me and it didnt seem as tho anyone would challenge them, oh well. I've already stated that this is a very circular argument. It hasnt been resolved in thousands of yrs and wont in this discussion.
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prismmagic
07/29/04 2:19 AM GMT
I sorry the human species if I remember right is only two chromosomes more then a chimp and 3 more then a frog. They are just arranged a little differently.
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Art is the perception of the creator. Meaning is the perception of the viewer. acceptance is the perception of society.
151515
07/29/04 4:25 PM GMT
Scientists have already proven macro-evolution impossible. Adaptation? yes, it's possible for a species to change certain characteristics to become better adapted to their environment over a long period of time, but apes turning into humans has already been proven false.
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~*~Therese~*~
::CaptainHero
07/29/04 6:59 PM GMT
Aspects of evolutionary theory have indeed been criticised. However, Christianity is also full of holes. From where I'm standing both science and religion are just two belief systems, each of them with pros and cons.

The law of averages alone would seem to dictate that the likelihood of somebody working out the big answers to life the universe and everything is pretty remote.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
jem184
07/30/04 2:37 AM GMT
it's funny but you hear about reincarnation all the time. in the bible, books, tv, radio....
i think that there is such a thing but then again on the other hand if there isn't so be it. i've just heard so much about it, it tends to sink in and then becomes a fasination. i've looked at different religions pertaining to this subject and there are quite a few that do believe that there is another life someplace else or even different stages to get there. anyhow i don't want to be longwinded. thanks
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jem184 "follow the yellow brick road!"
tbhockey
07/30/04 2:44 AM GMT
um, what part of the bible to you read about reincarnaition again??
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-tbhockey
prismmagic
07/30/04 3:29 AM GMT
So 151515 where did you get the emfo for tha? Scientist have proven it! Wat happened to the pre-human they have found called Lucy. She was a homo erectus. She is and has been proven to be the missing link from ape to man. So what your saying is that all animals evolved but man. So explain why some humans have less hair then others and why others have more. Also explain as people moved from Africa to Europe they became shorter and there skin color changed.
Also explain in all of the recorded history of remises the second and in Egypt that there is no documentation of the events of mosses and that the Jews where actually paid for there labor and not of slavery. Oh that’s right He had the name of mosses stricken from all history. How convenient. You can say there are holes in evolution but I see more in the bible. Also I do believe Christ was resurrected and that would be also called reincarnation.
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Art is the perception of the creator. Meaning is the perception of the viewer. acceptance is the perception of society.
::noobguy
07/30/04 3:46 AM GMT
151515 you have been misinformed. The idea that man "came" from ape has been decided false, but the idea that man and ape had the same origin, a completely different theory, is completely viable. As prism has pointed out.
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151515
07/30/04 7:57 PM GMT
Prismmagic, I did NOT say that all animals have evolved but man, I said that animals (including man) are capable of adaptation. I don't know where you heard that as Africans moved to Europe, they became shorter and their skin color changed, I've never heard such a thing so I'm not going to respond to that. Jesus's resurrection has nothing to do with reincarnation. If he was reincarnated, he wouldn't be in Heaven right now, he'd be on earth.

::noobguy- I don't really understand what you're saying, that a species evolved and some of them evolved into humans and some into apes?

Everyone- I'm tired of arguing because I can see that you're all as stubborn as I am and we're not going to get anywhere. Let's please end this soon.
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~*~Therese~*~
PuMa
07/30/04 8:02 PM GMT
151515, sry for that. But it already has become offtopic for a long time.
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** If you try to fail and you succeed, then which of the two did you do?
prismmagic
07/31/04 2:51 AM GMT
151515 I don't know where you get your information; but Africa has been known as the cradle of man for the past 35 years. So there for man kind and all of his ancestors came from Africa. It has also been traced in the last 20 years genealogically to Africa And the remains of the pre-human that they called Lucy was found in Africa. And I guess you also believe that Christ was a white man. I have news for you he was probably about 5foot 6 inches tall, had very dark skin, curly or wavy hair and a prominent nose. He was a Jew

And as far as mans descendants being from the primate family thinks about two words. Opposable thumbs.

Also adaptation is just another word for evolution. Think about it.
Where do I get my information? Hmmm I read other text besides the Bible and I watch PBS. And I read books on mythology and the beginning origins of religion and where all started with.
And I have news for you Christ did not claim he was Son of God. He said he was the Lamb of God and that God was his heavenly father. As he also said he was the heavenly father of all mankind. It was the Jews and the Romans who said he was the Son of God. So from that it was adapted into the Christian Bible. The Chritians adapted the original word to thier own meanings and for there own needs.

What scientist said that man did not come from primates. Show me the documentation and I’ll show you mine. I’ll place a bet’ that was a study that came from a Christian based sciences group. Along with the Christian theory that man stood beside dinosaurs! And are we going to still stick by the theory of Adam and Eve. And let me remind you of the glitch in that one, they had two Sons. So where did their wives come from? The other Eden!
Ah there wives must have been Neanderthals sence Adam, Eve, Cain and able people on the planet.
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Art is the perception of the creator. Meaning is the perception of the viewer. acceptance is the perception of society.
151515
07/31/04 4:18 PM GMT
I did NOT say I thought Christ was white- I know he was Jewish and lived in a region where most people had dark skin. Why would I think that? I agree that we can be classified with primates, but that doesn't mean we have the same origin. Lobsters and crabs both have pinchers- that doesn't mean they have the same origin.
Here are some places to look in the Bible where Jesus says he is the Son of God (Man):
John 9:35-37
John 10:30
John 10:36
John 1:49-50 (Jesus didn't correct Nathanael when he said "you are the Son of God")
Those were just in John. Jesus wouldn't call himself the Son of Man if what he meant was that he was God's child, just like everyone else. He meant that he was His only son.

I watched a special on a news channel that said that. I couldn't tell you who it was because I watched it two years ago- I don't remember. I know it wasn't a Christian channel, though. They were the normal news reporters interviewing scientists (of different religions).

As for Adam and Eve's sons, if you read Genesis, you will notice that in every list of descendants, it only lists the sons, never the daughters, so Adam and Eve could have had daughters but the Bible only mentioned their sons.
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~*~Therese~*~
::philcUK
07/31/04 4:26 PM GMT
And here I was thinking we had calmed all this nonsense down before it got out of hand but what a shocker the religious dogma is in full flow again going way off topic and turning into the inevitable intractable mud slinging match.

Please folks - give it a rest - as we've said before these conversations go nowhere except in circles usually causing distress along the way and as no one side has infallible proof as to their argument it’s pointless trying to persuade each other of the correctness of it all.
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"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
LiquidguitarJP
07/31/04 10:04 PM GMT
I guess you're right ..unfortunately phil but still...

and yeah where did jem184 read reincarnation in the bible!!?!?!
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Without Love...Without Trust...Without Hope and most importantly....Without Faith There will Be No Journey Back. ...§Carpe Diem§…
prismmagic
07/31/04 11:16 PM GMT
I agree Phil: Its time to change the subject. All I did was answer some questions that where put to me. I could go on to quote several scientist, theologians and experts in mythology but that would just continue the fatal discussion and it would just escalate. So I will leave it at that and retire my guns on the subject.
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Art is the perception of the creator. Meaning is the perception of the viewer. acceptance is the perception of society.
+Samatar
07/31/04 11:53 PM GMT
Personally I thought this discussion should have "died" a long time ago... ;-)
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
::CaptainHero
08/01/04 12:10 AM GMT
Agree: send it to the dead discussion graveyard. No afterlife for this one.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
151515
08/01/04 3:56 PM GMT
I was also answering questions and wished to stop- hope I didn't make any enemies, see you.
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~*~Therese~*~
PuMa
08/01/04 4:00 PM GMT
Sorry guys, didn't know either that this was comming out of this topic.
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** If you try to fail and you succeed, then which of the two did you do?
Raziel252
08/05/04 8:38 PM GMT
I've given up thinking about it, I end up going round and round just like this discussion. R.I.P discussion.
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Sticks and stones may break my body, but words will tearv my soul apart

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