this is aimed at the established fractalists, computer artists, photographers .. AND .. those boasting\implying of elite security\hacker skillz, knowledge and connections
those of you that, consistently, post quality works, day in and day out, without fail .. or those that are often found pontificating on the security issues of Microsoft's products with an air of name-dropping confidence .. those of you that are SO DAMN consistent .. we can set our watches by you
Is is here :) 1.52 pm and time to go back to work :(
To reluctantly tear myself away from easy fabulous foofing activities and funny (I use that word advisedly) friends, to banish from my mind obscure nongratuitous hypotenuse conjunctions. To hide my foofing secrets securely under the blanket of "oh this? 'Tis nothing, just something I put together in a spare moment, which extended into 2 hours, nothing to it , was easy :)"
So Hi Ho Hi Ho, its off to work I go, with a keen eye out for nubile hypopotomii diguised as hypotenuses. Clutching my unused tripod securely under my arm because you never know . .
Come to think of it, no one has ever asked fo instruction on how to use one -
For my next question -
Now, tripods and the use thereof. Also the useage thereof. More ornament than use. Unlike its owner which is neither.
Whats the use?
None of it makes any sense.
I may take the easy way out and create a few fractals lol. Factuals, fractious fractals or something of a similar persuasion.
I think the bottle is half empty, or is it half full? maths again. darn.
Back to the bosom of my work colleagues, who neither know or even care what a fractal is, they who look blankly at the mention of Photo Shop - "thats the one on the Main Street? yes? Camerascope, its called. Quite a nice shop actually, they sell some nice frames too"
Ah yes, frames, love em or hate em.
Borderline stuff.
Hi ho hi ho, a foofing I shall go
with a plugin here and an add on there
Hi ho hi ho . . . .
If anybody would like help with fractals please just pm me. I'll do my best help you out. I'm hardly ever on the discussion boards here lately. I just don't have the time anymore what with real life getting in the way.
Of course - it is Hippopotami.
I knew that, just testing to see if anyone is reading :)
"A massive thick skinned animal" - it says nothing about dangling participles but I guess they have them covered by PS.
I have given help to all who have asked on how to take better bird photos. Even posted a photo of my "bird studio" Is that the kind of help you are talking about Keith?
help comes in all forms .. some of the worst photos in the 'new images' have some of the most flowery praise
where are all of you 'crackshot' shooters HERE? .. is it because the project is too big? ... what am "I" doing there? As far as you all know I've never touched a camera in my life, I just make idle references to having done so
and, yes, I know, it's a slippery slope ... stick your neck out .. stop turtling
your food will taste better when you have the salt of the earth sprinkled on it
yep, treacle dipped cheese - the downfall of many an amateur critics ponderings and the foundation stone of monumentally overblown egos. it's all very nasty and pointless.
If I don't have a tiny bit of something nice to say I tend to not comment as simply pointing out everything bad doesn't seem to look very good...and usually gets some nasty remark.
Though if there are good and bad points I'll say so.
"some of the worst photos in the 'new images' have some of the most flowery praise"
This may well be true but it is all relative, what may be the worst image to one person could mean something different to another, and most 'artists' are savvy enough to know their own limits and abilities. Even the most inexperienced and techically challenged of us can see that a tecnically perfect photo can have a score (c word again) equal to a poor quality image with obvious faults which just happens to be 'pretty' and is what many prefer as their wallpaper. The 'wallpaper' factor will always be an issue and it seems to me that it is still the main criteria used in the VB, regardless.
If it is a choice between flowery praise or NO comments at all (critical helpful or otherwise) what would you chose? There would be little point in uploading anything at all if there were no comments made on them, taking into account that we are frequently told the c-index is not to be taken too seriously. If the people who are experienced and skilled enough to be able to offer helpful comments do not do so, then the flowery ones will have to suffice, at least they indicate that the image has actually been looked at, perhaps enjoyed.
I believe anyone, if asked, would confirm that they welcome critical appraisal. What bugs me more than anything is seeing an image which I (maybe misguidedly) think is a quality one ending up with the same score as a previously posted inferior (again just my opinion) one, with no apparent reason. I could give an example of this but fear revealing my overblown ego,ergo my ego will remain unrevealed, but despite 'flowery comments' I can assure you my ego is not inflated, far from it. I have eyes and I have a modicum of common sense, enough to keep me firmly grounded.
When a thoughtful and helpful critique appears offering suggestions or alternatives it is a bonus, and the fact that someone has been interested enough to take the time to do this is the best ego booster of all. Egos need the odd boost, otherwise they deflate and wither.
So those of you wondering 'why you bother' as Rob suggested, wonder no more, you bother because you cared enough to do so and subsequent opinions posted should not be an issue.
Phil, I have to disagree, I do not think it all very nasty and pointless. It is supposed to be fun (isn't it ?) Take away the fun factor, take away the sharing, and we might as well just put our own images up as our own wallpaper and forget about participating, either as uploaders or critics.
There is ALWAYS at least one good point in a pic even if it is just the colour or the lighting.. Personally when I comment on an image that isn't so good, I always start off with a positive,then give my suggestions, then end with an encouragement eg.. keep experimenting or something like that.. if it really needs help I will download it, fix it up and send a message to that person telling them what I have done, ask them if they would like to see it so they can compare the difference.. then I email it with step by step on what I did.. i've found most people appreciate it and try it themselves...
I agree there is way too much sugary sweet comments being handed out.. a year or so ago I deliberately posted an image just to see if all the comments I got were for real or just being nice.. yep.. it got "oohs" and "ahhs" "top work" "awesome" which I was a bit disappointed with because I really wanted someone to say "Good grief girl what the hell is that!" ;) so I take everything with a grain of salt these days, I never look at the"c" unless someone asks me a question about an image, and the comments I truly appreciate, but PLEASE if there is something there that you think is wrong TELL ME.. especially with photos..
Critiques are the ONLY way to learn and getting that from the more experienced photographers and fractalists is a very valued learning experience...
So the more critques (WITH TACT!!!) is a must to bring a bit of balance to the sugar coated comments..
And I agree with Baby Big Ears.. if you look at all the discussion threads asking for help.. its always the same people and some of those are novices themselves.. I know everyone has a real life but to take a few mins out of PM'ing or Playing games on the discussion boards, won't be a hassle.. just remember you were a beginner once too, and who knows your critic and suggestions could be the start of career in photography or art for someone...
As for wallpaper, thats what this site is.. a wallpaper site, yes lots of people vote for "that" particular look, but to me ANY image can make a wallpaper on a desktop, it depends on what the individual prefers..
RE: ... the worst image to one person could mean something different to another
true .. but that gives you license to sit on your hands and do nothing ... to, essentially, leave them stuck in the snow .. maybe they wanna be stuck in the snow, who are you to judge
RE: ... If the people who are experienced and skilled enough to be able to offer helpful comments do not do so, then the flowery ones will have to suffice
eh? ... generally speaking (no names) .. the flowery praise is coming from qualified people (based on their own galleries) .. THEY have said "I am qualified" by producing top-notch work .. day-in-day-out ... to interpret that any other way requires a lot of political-candidate level waffling sleight-of-hand, and subterfuge
there is nothing wrong with saying .. "this bird would look better if isolated from its background with a wider aperture .. if you are interested in learning how to do that .. send me a PM" .. although other peeps can learn from tips given in the open, this puts the ball in their court, and leaves it up to them to say "yes, tell me"
so many images are posted that suffer from that exact fault .. everything in the image is identifiable .. Lady and the pigeons ... why does this happen? .. because people don't think about it .. they shoot on 'auto' ... photography, to them, is raising the silver box to their eye, and strutting off, that photographer swagger evident in their gait
planting the seed in their mind that their works could be better doesn't carry with it the implied statement that their works are total garbage NOW ... suggest that they shoot something both ways and judge for themselves ... link to two examples showing the concept of which you speak .. and let them judge for themselves
does it require effort on your part? .. yes! .. is it your job to do so? .. again, yes! (reduce your carbon footprint with karma credits) ... will it blow up in your face sometimes? ... (*wink*) bring a napkin!
why does this happen? .. because people don't think about it .. they shoot on 'auto'
Guilty as charged.
Send me to prison
I do not repent !!
(but neither do I swagger off, or call myself a photographer, despite the fact I now own a tripod. Very useful for fending of critics lol. Once I learn how to extend the legs (tripod's, not mine)and screw on the camera it may be of some use, but will it work on auto? I ask myself)
However, I do not sit on my hands.
They hold the camera (on auto of course)
If anyone wants to teach me about wider apertures I am happy to learn.
Any tentative suggestions I have made regarding changes/improvements have been taken in the right way and occassionally followed up on via pm. Not often, but enough. However there are some very expert artists here whose work I would not presume to suggest improvements for. I MAY see something in one I do not care for or would have done differently but I still would not say so. But I see no harm in giving praise for something that I derive pleasure from , and will continue to do so.
Takes all sorts doesn't it, and some of us are too old and too stupid to change.
Will anyone visit me in camera prison?
btw my camera is black, not silver.
How can someone who shoots on auto, can't do layers and doesn't know an aperture from an ants nest give good advice?
Occassionaly people have contacted me asking how I achieved a certain effect (or horrors! made a frame) and I am happy to pass on any knowledge I have. My experience is that most other people are as well, and they do.
And yes, I have done the "this is how I have improved it " thing (with their permission of course) and emailed it to them, and had the same done for me on occassion. Sometimes help of this nature is not seen.
Quote
. . . "I agree there is way too much sugary sweet comments being handed out..."
Ya nailed that one right on the head J-girl!!" . . . . . .
Unquote
Maybe, but a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down, and as a I said before better sugar than nothing at all.
I post, therefore I am.
But if no one says a thing about my post, how do I know I exist :)
Sugar, treacle, cheese, syrup . . the list goes on.
Nobody is suggesting that every image be grilled .. if you spoke up about the items that your conscience tells you to .. but you beat down because you're bigger than your conscience, that would be ok, I guess
the images that everybody has ignored (for whatever reason) are generating "comment-requests" .. I often wonder if the comments that are found there when I arrive are left by people who also received a CR for it .. and who think they are "expected" to say "great photo" .. the path of least resistance .. or, as you say, they truly think it is a great photo
RE: would I like "sugar" or no comments at all?
some could argue I have only known sugar ... yes, I think we all post for comments .. a lack of comments and most of us would prolly stop posting. When we drop the pebble into the abyss we want to hear the splash, or convince ourselves that we heard it ... when we drive our monsta truck up the ramp, to jump 15 toyotas, when we have only cleared 13 prior, we want to hear that CRUNCH ... when we inch our taxi cab forward, because the light turned green, we want to hear Dustin Hoffman say "Hey, I'm walkin' here"... when we.......but I digress
Quote
. . . "I agree there is way too much sugary sweet comments being handed out..."
I also said "I always start off with a positive,then give my suggestions, then end with an encouragement eg.. keep experimenting or something like that.." that way they get both.. the sugar, the medicine then more sugar..
Uhm ... it would appear, not by necessarily reading the postings of this thread in particular ... just some general observations over a period of time ... that the meaning of the word 'community' is getting lost ... somewhat.
Growing pains?
And dealing with that growth, I do think it is incumbent of those that have been around for some time and are still around to give 'something' back.
And I know that most of you do.
And not pointing fingers here ... as I am guilty of being hard to comprehend at times ... however, perhaps we could leave our propensities to turn a phrase at the door?
Seems to me that is where a lot of the misunderstandings take place and things tend to get a bit heated.
Going back to what I consider to be the operative query posed initially, that being this ... and I quote Keith here;
"why don't you ever try to help people?"
Instead of adding to the sugar, treacle, cheese, syrup ... as viewed by some, not all ... if you find yourself presented with a friends' list of prolific posters ... just trying to illustrate the point here that it is very easy to get 'behind in things' ... don't ... go ... through a flurry of posts in a rush to play catch up.
We all know when we receive those kinds of comments.
Poorly spelled ... at times ... poor grammar ... at times ... a few 'buzz' words from the images' accompanying narrative thrown into the commentary ... and fait accompli? ... uh, no ... not in my mind.
I really feel you are robbing yourself of opportunities for growth by not perusing the works of the newer artists, or for that matter ... ones you have not yet been exposed to as of yet.
Quite simple in my mind ... and in my approach ... would I ... I rather put out 10 comments of a few lines each ... or ... show an investment and time ... and consideration to the artist ... by trying to provide one good critique?
I understand why 'we' do what we do at times ... just think 'we' all need a bit of paradigm shift away from quantity versus quality.
Jacqueline's comments are always a pleasure to receive, she practises what she preaches :) (and J - I did read the full content of what you said but it was quoted without the qualification by HR and that was what I was referring to.)
Les, you miss my point. YOU are able and gifted enough to give a worthwhile and respected comment, which would be of benefit to the image owner.
Some of us are not.
So do we stop commenting as and how our abilities allow us to?
Is my " I really like this picture, it draws me into the scene with its lovely atmosphere" of no value? There is no point in my saying "but the border does not suit and I don't like the colour", if I have no alternative suggestion.
Poor spelling and poor grammar should not be a fault. Some can, some can't (spell, I mean)
Repeating Tolstoy (from my spotlight thingy)
Art must create a specific emotional link between artist and audience, one that infects the viewer. Thus, real art requires the capacity to unite people via communication
To me, a "nice work" comment on one of my pictures IS communication. It may not be instruction, but it is communication. My efforts may not be art in the true sense of the word, as much of the work of others may also not be, but they are all a vehicle for communication and there can not be enough of that.
I am totaly in agreement that we should all try to help where we can,but also that we should not forego the opportunity to touch another person, perhaps make them feel good by a random, maybe small, acknowledgment that their work has been seen, and appreciated.
We all want to improve (I imagine) otherwise we would not be here, and yes, we all should give as well as take., be it expert advice, sugar ,syrup or whatever we have available.
Communication = community.
I am off to eat some strawberries and ice cream, I need sweetening up.
Anyone got any sugar?
:) :) :)
QUOTE: .. "YOU are able and gifted enough to give a worthwhile and respected comment, which would be of benefit to the image owner. Some of us are not"
BZZZZZZzzzzzzzzt! .. wrong answer!!! .. Johnny, tell her what she won
Lyn, your "draws me into the scene" is fine .. you ARE qualified to speak authoritatively about that which you know .. nobody is asking you to do otherwise ... there IS a chance this bus wasn't destined to hit you, but you chose to dive underneath it ...
the premise was as such: .. you would have a hard time convincing me that all of the praise found underneath some of the images is heartfelt and justified ... that the image "struck a chord with the viewer" .. a chord that I do not possess, and could not begin to understand .. and, NO, this bus isn't careening out of control in your direction either ...
if the image draws you into it ... "by all means, say so" ... if the image does not draw you into it, for obvious, standout reasons, and you have an opinion on what could improve it.. "consider saying so" .. but do so in a manner that will stand a better chance of not bouncing off their forehead
if we assume that ALL of the praise found underneath some of the images is genuine .. then what's the point of moderating uploads for any kind of quality .. because we have been shooting down some Pulitzer prize winning entries taken with cellphones .. in bathrooms
it is felt, in some quarters, that the quality level has dropped in the last year or two .. that the bar has been lowered .. parking permits are not being checked .. it isn't just the +mods that feel that way, it's been mentioned by several people in the forums .... part of the reason for that could be credited to mixed signals given to the mods to both, allow 'beginner' works and to reject 'snapshots'
beginner works, in the hopes that they would receive guidance .. no snapshots, because they have little in the way of artistic merit, effort, or worth to anybody but the snapper ... both types of submissions receive equal praise and, to be fair, equal guidance from the membership ..
I dont really know any more.
I have done my bit for today. I have commented on some of my friends list images, I have answered a Comment Request. Normally I would now enjoy a browse through new Images and then go the the VB, but all this thinking and giving wrong answers and asking wrong questions has worn me out lol
Btw Keith, between other things today I also made an image especially for you - feel free to leave a comment lol - two pages or two words, no matter.No sugar required or expected.
Lyn my 'nasty & pointless' reference was relating to what I had said about the creation of several ten-ton gorilla ego's rather than the Caedes experience in general :-)
Lyn, I'd like to respond to what you said, but actually address the membership as a whole. Please don't take this the wrong way, as I'm guessing what you've expressed, many others feel as well.
You've said you "aren't qualified" to judge or critique an image. I'd argue that point whole-heartedly. Anyone with a modicum of taste who's spent as long as you, or I, or any number of members here have, processing an image, is more than qualified.
I'll explain. Let's suppose a given image is actually yours (or mine, etc). You see it there, up on your screen. Something inevitably gets changed, altered, tweaked, or adjusted. It could be color, lighting, sharpness, etc. How many times have you, or I or "Jane/John Doe" put an image through this "process"? Hundreds? Thousands? Some changes are more obvious to spot than others, granted. But simply by projecting ownership onto an image can usually "let" us see what's, for lack of a better term, "wrong". In other words, ask yourself, "hmm, what would I do if this were mine?" and take it from there.
Now I'll share something with you. Occasionally, I've seen an image I've liked, that didn't look quite right. If I'm not able to immediately address the changes I feel would help an image, I'll download it, and actually try making the changes myself. If indeed, what I've done has produced what I'd imagined, I'll share those changes. If not, but I still like the image, I'll go back, and try to touch on the image's qualities I DO like.
Backing up the truck to respond to a few points ...
Lyn? I would respectfully submit that you are indeed qualified enough to provide guidance and offer suggestions and advice. And agree with Rob and Keith on that particular point.
And you do, I have witnessed and read your postings and commentaries.
I would also like to point out that I am in agreement with you in that offering encouraging words is indeed a good thing.
What I don't quite understand ... to a degree, depending on personality type ... is the reluctance in the face of some backlash from another member in the past who might not have been as accepting or receptive to a 'critique' being a stumbling block to offering future help.
Who cares?
Simply put. If some curmudgeon or disgruntled soul is lurking about ... not going to let that impact (or try not to) my enjoyment of the other facets and aspects of the site. One or two bad apples? Not worth the investment of emotions and time.
And here's the real crux to my contribution to the discussion at this juncture:
As with all things ... there is a spectrum of behaviours, properties and so on.
So, I don't think it is that surprising to come across some members who are only comfortable in offering the 'good', leaving the 'bad and ugly' out of their commentaries.
And there are some members who I give a bye to ... a pass on being 'everything and anything to all', based on the quality of their submissions to the site here.
Time. Time. Time.
If I had to choose between being privy to their creative mindset ... or ... their work in whatever genre?
I'd be really hard pressed to say my preference.
And you know ... some times it does feel good to bring a smile to another. Not a bad thing ... I only have a problem with what I term 'reflexive commentaries'. Knee jerk, spit out some ... 'stuff' ... and that is that.
Empty, vacuous ... and it is the single greatest source of confusion and dissatisfaction amongst the membership from my observations.
"How come my score doesn't match the comments received?"
Sound familiar?
And really ... what are people's expectations in posting to a public site?
As well policed as this one is ... of course, there are going to be a few dark corners where some will come out of the wood work from time to time. Move on in those instances, come here or ask for a little moral support ... I think most assuredly, that support would be there in those instances.
And criticism is ... no a bad thing.
It's just one person's opinion. Take it for what you will.
It has been suggested in the past, for critique purposes, that a different scale than the c-index be used. There would be different scales for things like composition, overall quality, etc. A comment box could still be left, but then people could understand why they got the comments and the c-index they did.
Unless, of course, some people are still giving 0's on the c-indexes for no reason, in which case that could be resolved by accountability. I think something like that could clear up a lot of confusion on how to critique, and could help a lot of people out.
I've been saying that for a long time Emily, only I suggested that it was to be put in the VB so when people voted it was compulsory to tick eg. composition "poor" "ok" "good" "very good" that way the artist had a bit of an idea on why it got the score it did... but i'm still waiting.. ;)
But I still think that it doesn't hurt members to take a few mins to give the artist suggestions, especially the newbies... because if there isn't any critic at the beginning they will keep on posting poor quality and snapshots etc and other members will keep on complaining about "the quality of images these days are getting worse" or "there are way too many snapshots lately" maybe the members who keep saying that may take it upon themselves to "actually" write something tactful on the image with helpful suggestions.. lets face it.. we were all newbies once-up-on-a-time.. ;)
and Les QUTOE: "And there are some members who I give a bye to ... a pass on being 'everything and anything to all', based on the quality of their submissions to the site here.
Just because a member doesn't post many submissions doesn't make their critique any less important, people have various reasons not posting ALL the time eg. like me, I haven't posted mainly because i've had too much to do in the real world with family probs plus lately I can't get motivated to do any art or photos.. but I still comment and I still give suggestions.
I simply wanted to offer an idea that could improve the commenting system. If we are not supposed to offer ideas for improvement, I was not aware of that, and I apologize.
But it seems to me as someone who has done web development as a day job in the past, that changing the mechanics of the site would be one way to improve the feedback a user gets.
For those users who do not wish to get critical remarks, perhaps there could be a way to turn off comments.
You will be led to the knowledge of the internal things which are invisible to you, by the external things which you see before you. . . . Even so then, we can represent to ourselves in thought the Author of all that is, by contemplating and admiring the (visible) things which He has made, and ever brings into being.
- Hermes
Or maybe, if they could just say in their description ... "Please, no critiques." And include a short reason why, if they care to. Or not. Whatever.
We sometimes see an upload with "helpful critique or criticism needed or wanted" or the more basic, & much more to the point .. " I know it's crap & I uploaded it anyway because I'm having X problem & I can't figure it out. Can anybody help ? Please ?!?!?!"
And don't be afraid to leave a comment Cindy, ever.
Well, unless you're afraid it'll cause a thread to be hijacked, which as we all know is very rare but still something to look out for.
If I'm not mistaken (I'm not..I looked), this thread was originally about helping people, not comments left at an image, or the oft-maligned (deservedly so) C-index.
Leaving a critical comment is one way to help, but certainly not, by any means, the only way.
Tutorials, for example, are another. They could be in the traditional "image" form, and put in the tutorials gallery, or they could be a thread, written here. They could even be one-on-one instruction offered to someone who hasn't quite got the skill set they need to produce an optimal image.
Something to ponder in this "Season of Giving", no?
Well, I've seen positive reinforcement work many times. And someone above was so right about being sure to say something positive to start. I heard my daughter's violin teacher always praising her and saying how wonderful she was doing, even when I know I heard some sour notes during the lessons, but today my daughter is a wonderful violinist and I attribute it, in part, to this great teacher who never failed to be complimentary even as she instructed on how to play a piece correctly or master a musical concept.
Lauren is right that someone has the option of stating that they prefer no critique. I like to be critiqued because it keeps me on my toes and motivates me to try harder.
You have to be really thin skinned to become angry when someone offers a criticism. None of us is as good as we'd like to think we are. That's my view anyway.
As to offering help, I do when I am asked and usually by PM. I think it is more comfortable for the person who is asking for the help not to have the criticism in full view of everyone else.
You will be led to the knowledge of the internal things which are invisible to you, by the external things which you see before you. . . . Even so then, we can represent to ourselves in thought the Author of all that is, by contemplating and admiring the (visible) things which He has made, and ever brings into being.
- Hermes
Cindy, I agree with you, and in almost every aspect, with everything else said on this thread.
What I'd hoped to do was re-direct this conversation back on track. It's not so much about comments, and whether or not to leave them. It's about, as Keith originally stated, the more experienced, the more talented, skilled etc giving back to the same site from where, perhaps they once learned.
Can we maybe save comments not in line with that context for another thread?
I thought this was a thread about helping and the ways we could go about doing it. I made several suggestions and I thought they contributed to the idea of 'helping'. One was about being positive, another about doing so privately. I fail to see how this doesn't relate to the original point of this thread. I guess I haven't learned how to participate in the threads yet. Maybe the more 'experienced' here can give me lessons.
You will be led to the knowledge of the internal things which are invisible to you, by the external things which you see before you. . . . Even so then, we can represent to ourselves in thought the Author of all that is, by contemplating and admiring the (visible) things which He has made, and ever brings into being.
- Hermes
*turns down the heat ... to prevent the discussion from boiling over ...*
Quoting regmar here;
"We like to encourage people to grow artistically and create the art that others want to use as desktop wallpaper. Just remember that the purpose of this site is to create desktop wallpaper art and receive critiques of that art, so we can improve as artists."
Growth for an artist can occur in many ways. And seems to be at the center of the sites' charter of sorts.
Taking personality into account ... some need encouragement and would appreciate a more gentle touch, some want 'just the facts, Jack' ... and so on.
Ok, so then how can 'we' help others?
1) Produce a tutorial.
2) Comment more constructively. (Personal emphasis here is mine.)
3) Share tips and advice in emails and/or PMs.
4) ???
Yes, I did see it. It's just that sometimes I can't help getting the feeling that these threads have an 'ownership' and the rest of us hesitate to contribute because the convos get personal. I thought I was talking about how we could help others and suggesting that we do, just not always in the comment box.
You will be led to the knowledge of the internal things which are invisible to you, by the external things which you see before you. . . . Even so then, we can represent to ourselves in thought the Author of all that is, by contemplating and admiring the (visible) things which He has made, and ever brings into being.
- Hermes
I don't need 'doctored' eggnog if you were meaning me, Rob and I'm not grumpy. Up front and to the point is more the way I see it, but it's not always easy to see oneself the way others do. I apologize if I added nothing constructive to the thread and I will defer to the elders.
You will be led to the knowledge of the internal things which are invisible to you, by the external things which you see before you. . . . Even so then, we can represent to ourselves in thought the Author of all that is, by contemplating and admiring the (visible) things which He has made, and ever brings into being.
- Hermes
Please, even if you don't visit my gallery, check out my "Faves".I've left them intact since day "1", and would like it if every image there got the attention they deserved.
Oh oh ... think it's time for a rousing rendition of "La Bamba" (always makes me smile and tap a toe or two).
*hands out maracas to everyone*
Ready?
♫♪♪♫ Para bailar la bamba
Para bailar la bamba
Se necesita una poca de gracia
Una poca de gracia pa mi pa ti
Y arriba y arriba
Ay arriba y arriba
Por ti sere, por ti sere, por ti sere
Yo no soy marinero
Yo no soy marinero, soy capitan
Soy capitan, soy capitan
Bamba, bamba
Bamba, bamba
Bamba, bamba
Bamba
Para bailar la bamba
Para bailar la bamba
Se necesita una poca de gracia
Una poca de gracia pa mi pa ti
Ay y arriba y arriba
Para bailar la bamba
Para bailar la bamba
Se necesita una poca de gracia
Una poca de gracia pa mi pa ti
Y arriba y arriba
Ay arriba y arriba
Por ti sere, por ti sere, por ti sere
Please, even if you don't visit my gallery, check out my "Faves".I've left them intact since day "1", and would like it if every image there got the attention they deserved.
You will be led to the knowledge of the internal things which are invisible to you, by the external things which you see before you. . . . Even so then, we can represent to ourselves in thought the Author of all that is, by contemplating and admiring the (visible) things which He has made, and ever brings into being.
- Hermes
And, if I may have another go at this, every good photographer on this site, of whom I have asked for help or of whom I have requested information on how they did something, has been more than gracious in answering my queries. I am truly grateful to them and in that sense, the reliable, consisent, established and skilled are giving back to this community already. There is a lot that goes on behind the scenes of which others on this thread are not aware.
I think tutorials would be an excellent option for helping folks, me included, learn some new skills or techniques. It is great when someone leaves EXIF information or explains in detail (as LynEve did) how they went about managing the post work of a particular image.
Rob, Keith, I am sorry if I offended and didn't take your words with the lightness with which they were intended. I am not a hard a--, you know. I am trying to improve and I am trying to be helpful too. I don't know if this comment lends itself to the latter ideal, but I was trying to speak to the original observation made at the beginning of this thread.
You will be led to the knowledge of the internal things which are invisible to you, by the external things which you see before you. . . . Even so then, we can represent to ourselves in thought the Author of all that is, by contemplating and admiring the (visible) things which He has made, and ever brings into being.
- Hermes
Please tell me where I sniped from the treeline, if you please, sir. And when did I ever say everyone is mean? I can put words in my own mouth. (And I won't run away, Keith).
You will be led to the knowledge of the internal things which are invisible to you, by the external things which you see before you. . . . Even so then, we can represent to ourselves in thought the Author of all that is, by contemplating and admiring the (visible) things which He has made, and ever brings into being.
- Hermes
"I can't help getting the feeling that these threads have an 'ownership' and the rest of us hesitate to contribute because the convos get personal."
Cindy .. I have always valued your insight. You are the only one that can convey that insight .. if you stifle yourself because you feel you are being bullied .. then we lose that insight
there has been no 'ownership' or 'getting personal' ... in fact, I, myself usually try to avoid names and examples (links) .. because I don't wish for anybody to came along and think they were being made fun of ... they weren't, by me, in this thread
I already know how you feel about me (you shared your insight) .. just flick my ear if you feel I am out of line ... or use my middle name when addressing me, like my mother when she's mad
now .. everybody .. laugh at my Dustin Hoffman joke .. or else
Yes, now you have my words as I said them. I didn't say everyone was mean, I said what you quoted. That is a feeling and a feeling has no wrong or right, it just is what it is. In fact, I said it was a feeling right from the start.
Your jokes are often funny. You write very well and have a unique way of expressing yourself, I just have trouble on occasion with what 'seem' like non-sequiturs. But hey, I'm not perfect. Yeah, the Dustin Hoffman thing is funny.
You will be led to the knowledge of the internal things which are invisible to you, by the external things which you see before you. . . . Even so then, we can represent to ourselves in thought the Author of all that is, by contemplating and admiring the (visible) things which He has made, and ever brings into being.
- Hermes
You will be led to the knowledge of the internal things which are invisible to you, by the external things which you see before you. . . . Even so then, we can represent to ourselves in thought the Author of all that is, by contemplating and admiring the (visible) things which He has made, and ever brings into being.
- Hermes
Please, even if you don't visit my gallery, check out my "Faves".I've left them intact since day "1", and would like it if every image there got the attention they deserved.
um, was implying that lately Dustin Hoffman, or at least, Dustin Hoffman's career is a joke. I didn't get the joke either. So I guess I'm outrageously stupid.
Please, even if you don't visit my gallery, check out my "Faves".I've left them intact since day "1", and would like it if every image there got the attention they deserved.
Not stupid. It's from Midnight Cowboy, where Dustin Hoffman is walking with Jon Voigt across a busy street and he say's "Hey, I'm walkin' here" to the traffic. You guys are probably too young to remember it.
You will be led to the knowledge of the internal things which are invisible to you, by the external things which you see before you. . . . Even so then, we can represent to ourselves in thought the Author of all that is, by contemplating and admiring the (visible) things which He has made, and ever brings into being.
- Hermes
Please, even if you don't visit my gallery, check out my "Faves".I've left them intact since day "1", and would like it if every image there got the attention they deserved.
I remember it! 1969 - I thought I as going to see a "Western'
Sure got "Everybody Talkin" :)
I was but a young innocent child at the time, of course :)
"Hey, I'm walkin here" is one of his most famous, quotable lines ... it is often an 'impressionists' whole Dustin Hoffman act ...
interviewers that can actually get him to repeat it during an interview are hoisted up on shoulders and carried off studio sets .... in that whole way that musicians get tired of doing that 'bubble-gum-pop' song from the sixties that launched their careers
Al Pacino is very 'unlikely' to utter "You talkin' to me?" for an interviewer that is checking his watch to make sure he's not late for his Paris Hilton '15 minutes of fame'
if you hurry .. you can probably still get Erkel to say "did I do that?" ...
Please, even if you don't visit my gallery, check out my "Faves".I've left them intact since day "1", and would like it if every image there got the attention they deserved.
actually .. he would, NOW, be very much inclined to say it .. since it carries no baggage for him, no groupies tugging at his sleeve all these years .. "Please, Alvin, Say .. 'you talking to me?'.. "
and he could instantly add another movie to his roster ... for us befuddled Californians
You will be led to the knowledge of the internal things which are invisible to you, by the external things which you see before you. . . . Even so then, we can represent to ourselves in thought the Author of all that is, by contemplating and admiring the (visible) things which He has made, and ever brings into being.
- Hermes
Please, even if you don't visit my gallery, check out my "Faves".I've left them intact since day "1", and would like it if every image there got the attention they deserved.
Pardon me for joining the discussion just a WEE TAD late here and aaack, i actually had to skim over some of what was said jeez @ how a thread can grow in the week since I've been here.
I wanted to address one of Lynn's comments:
"Is my " I really like this picture, it draws me into the scene with its lovely atmosphere" of no value? There is no point in my saying "but the border does not suit and I don't like the colour", if I have no alternative suggestion."
Sometimes, it's all in the way you word things. Instead of saying "but the border does not suit and I don't like the colour", you can say "I'd like to see the border in a different color" - which says the same thing without being negative about it. You don't always have to be specific about what the change has to be, just find a way to point something out as personal preference in some instances. "I think this border is too complicated/hard and doesn't do justice to your image". Giving a different point of view and allowing the artist to step back and find their own solution to the problem you see can be just as valid as giving exact directions.
Other things that can be given (if true) when you see an image is bad and you don't have almost anything good to say about it: "I've looked through your gallery, and you have a nice eye, but I think this image has failed you" "I've looked through your gallery, and you look like you're improving alot - I think you're on track with this shot, and here are things you can do to adjust/fix it" "I see where you're going with this image, I think if you tried x x & y, it might help alot" "Wow, what a neat/great/nice concept/idea - it's not quite working for me as it is, but you could try to tone done this, sharpen this, etc." "Looking forward to seeing more of your work" "Can't wait to see where you go next" - you get the idea.
Now - who's got the eggnog? - the uh adult kind if you don't mind.
I believe that we all know a good photo when we see one and I also believe that we know a bad one when we see one.I think we all learn from the mistakes that we see in each others photos even if it has not been pointed out to us.For me, an amature, to try and point out the technical side of photography when I havn`t a clue would be absurd.I have sent a few personal messages to the friends that I have made here pointing out over sharpening or over saturation as I see it.Do I have a duty to critique? I don`t believe so.
Duty? Not exactly. But as a community, which the site heralds itself as, that involves members interacting in a constructive way. Critiquing is one of those ways. See something you don't like, agree with, etc? Say so.
If you do so civilly, or as some would ask, nicely, any negative reaction you receive would be the fault of the artist, not you, for trying to be an active member. Most, including myself, not only welcome critiques, but encourage them, as a way for us to continue growing.
Please, even if you don't visit my gallery, check out my "Faves".I've left them intact since day "1", and would like it if every image there got the attention they deserved.
Cat - what you say is well said. It is what I try to do, time (there is never enough) and brain power (often ditto!) allowing. I was just trying to defend my right to leave sometimes brief comments without being given the treacle or honey saturated comment label. I know I appreciate short comments as well as helpful and instructive ones, and I would hope that mine would be taken in the same way. Sometimes I leave the whole loaf, other times just one slice, an acknowledgement I have seen and admired the work. Never spread with honey though. If they seem too sweet, it is because that is what I saw.
Yes Jacqueline TACT is the important thing. I think I use it. As I mentioned previously, any suggestions I have made have been taken in the spirit they were given. Like Tom, I do not feel qualified to give technical advice, you all know I am a point and shoot on auto photo criminal :) But I do not want to feel guilty about any comments I do make because of that. Having viewed Toms gallery btw I would be happy to receive any advice from him :)
Lyn, of course brief comments are fine on occassion, I certainly can't throw stones as I haven't had time to leave any lately. This is of course provided that the brief comment isn't "Wow! Fantastic shot!" on an image that is clearly lacking. Pointing out a simple positive without being effusive says something about where the image succeeds.
I think what Phil and a number of others are referring to is multiple comments of the "wow" sort on images that are at best lukewarm in their actual appeal/success. If you regularly comment and give advice (which does not always have to be technical - if you like art and have an opinion, you are qualified to give feedback), then the arrow wasn't pointed @ you and feel free to DUCK AND COVER.
You will be led to the knowledge of the internal things which are invisible to you, by the external things which you see before you. . . . Even so then, we can represent to ourselves in thought the Author of all that is, by contemplating and admiring the (visible) things which He has made, and ever brings into being.
- Hermes
I understand what Rob(third eye) has said and I can agree.I just don`t want to find myself looking for mistakes and or looking for things to offer critique to.I don`t want to feel that its my obligation to do so either.When I do offer some input, I will stand by it and not be intimated by a negative response.I know that when its well worded, we all understand the intent.
edit from above with a qualifier: I have been trying me best in my cranky-men-don't-like-to-talk-about-the-subject state to make sure I was not being judgemental and well abrasive. it appears i only partially succeeded.
i also wanted to say, I had not been pointing specifically @ lyn when i posted the 1st comment, I've just seen many people say they don't know how to give constructive feedback, and I wanted to toss out some ways to do it. Actual words that can be used rather than just viewpoints. lyn just happened to have tossed out a comment that made a good pickup for it, sooooo.... lyn me lovely darlin - no arrow your way, back to duck duck goose.
I've only been here a little over a year and just discovered the discussion boards. I like taking photos. I was thrilled to see one of my photos archived. I really shouldn't even post here because I'm not a -real- photographer or artist (see Kiefer's opening statement). I don't know -how- to be consistent, 'cause I never learned the 'rules' -- I just know when an image is 'right'.
Everyone appreciates help and encouragement. I know when when a forced comment is blather, and when my submission is really crap, however subjective. I have, however, observed in myself and others that people generally don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.
Caedes (the site) is valuable. (I don't know the Lord High Caedes) ;D
Well, I'll be the first to admit that my photography skills are not great. I often get lucky...at least for me. I do not even OWN a camera (my crappy one died), rather I depend on my trusty (and somewhat grainy) cellphone. That being said...I have taken some pics that at least had the potential to being nice, and I have got some great comments...such as the picture is lovely but the sun is a bit too harsh. Ok, good to know. Much like J has said, blend the sugar with the meds. So my pic has a chance to be good and is pretty in some regards, but if this item was changed it would be even better. I can live with that. Now if I heard...your shot sucks @ss, and not get any tips at all, I'd give up completely. I can live with my shot sucking, but hey, before you drop the hammer and completely kill my spirits, at least tell me there is one saving grace. I appreciated that "my sun was too harsh". It told me next time learn how to photoshop, or wait a few minutes for a slightly different angle so that the sun softens. I know now where I went wrong. I also know that my image wasn't 100% horrible, that it had good aspects to it, so that I am encouraged to try again...and in trying again, I know to watch for a harsh sun.
Now as to flowery...there have been shots that just jumped out at me. I remember one of 2 old ladies in who knows, Romania or something, sitting in front of a shop. I really LOVED that image. It didn't fair well. Was it the shot? I don't know. I am not yet that technically savvy. But for me, it grabbed me emotionally. And I think that in terms of artistry, that emotion matters. Technically, maybe the shot stunk, but emotionally it sang to me and I praised it. I don't get Dali or even Da Vinci. Both said to be technically awesome artists, both artistic legends in their particular styling. Can't stand them. I love Warhol. Not because of any talent, but because his artwork was often fun and full of life. Same with Keith Harring. Love his work. Is it artistic? Can it be compared to a Da Vinci? I'd take a KH any day. Again, it plays to my emotions. Some pix here do the same. On a tech side, probably no good, but emotionally great. Others Tech faboo, but do absolutely NOTHING for me. So my point is this...if I choose to leave a "flowery" comment, perhaps it is because on some level, I truly find the image gorgeous. Now if nothing but flowery is left, with no emotion behind it, I'd say whatever.
I'm rambling a bit here...damn, I sound like Les right now...
Anyway my perception is this...photography is art. Art is based on who is viewing it. I would like some comments that could help me become better, but I don't mind if someone leaves flowery, if they truly feel that way about my image. And I do appreciate it when those I feel are much more talented than myself makes a comment. First they bothered to view it, and secondly, by leaving a comment, they saw SOMETHING in it that had some potential somewhere.
Make any sense? If not, sorry. Just got back from my 6 month check and am hopped up on pain killers (and if you were wondering...my last CT and pap were good, and the doc said he expects this exam to be the same...so one year cancer free and counting).
this is aimed at the established fractalists, computer artists, photographers .. AND .. those boasting\implying of elite security\hacker skillz, knowledge and connections
those of you that, consistently, post quality works, day in and day out, without fail .. or those that are often found pontificating on the security issues of Microsoft's products with an air of name-dropping confidence .. those of you that are SO DAMN consistent .. we can set our watches by you
you KNOW who you are
why don't you ever try to help people?