I know it has probably always been a problem, but there seems to be an ever increasing trend for people to comment, often in a purportedly considered fashion, on images – without actually ever opening the full size image to inspect it – making a mockery of much of the praise and technical evaluation they have lavished on it. You know the kind of thing – lots of comments like ‘great focus/sharpness/DOF/detail etc etc ‘ and then you open the full size image and think ‘what the hell?’ followed swiftly by a dart of self doubt wondering if they were even looking at the same image you were.

This is a problem that seems to be exacerbated in ‘fan club’ scenarios where artists receive complimentary posts from the same set of members routinely `that could quite literally be copy and pasted from one image to the next in the same gallery. Whilst it’s clearly obvious that there a few Martians who genuinely seem to feed off of this and use it as nest lining – I still can’t believe that every other oxygen breather values it in any shape or form. Sure it has been discussed at length before that ‘a bit of sugar goes down better than spite’ and for certain it does, but the treacle lakes that wash over lots of work really devalues it to the larger extent and I’m sure/would hope that people would genuinely prefer nothing at all over a dollop of syrup that has no realistic critique or comment to it.

Am I being weird? Is it just me? These days there just seems to be a Saccharin overdose sufficient enough to bring down a charging rhino rather than the preferred ‘spoonful of sugar’. All I’m suggesting is that people ease off on the sweetener and perhaps intersperse it with more considered and objective commentary or just spread the net a little further and investigate/comment on a stranger’s piece instead. On the flip side of that, members used to the sweet, actively seek out and act on the savoury instead of just ignoring it and letting it sink in the pool of syrup.

No, it isn't just you,Phil. I've seen, more so lately, a few "stinkers" that members have posted. My only guess as to why some images get put up, is for the "hey, look at this" picture-sharing that's commonly found in Flickr, Myspace, and other more social sites.

What makes it worse, as you've said, is the praise lavished upon some of these images. This is primarily a wallpaper site. No, we are no longer limited to screen sizes, or dimensions. That doesn't, however, mean it should be a free-for-all where anything and everything gets posted. Perhaps the confusion lies between what is an "interesting" subject, and a "well photographed" one.

On the CG/Fractal side of the house, just cranking out any old script or pattern, and posting it, would be akin to hanging up a Gyroscope tracing, or a crayon scribble that little Johnny or Susie made at school today. I may not have a background in computer art, but I know art. Quite a few images here, if not most, would it in that category. Some, painfully, don't.

Now, this isn't to say that "this person" or"that person" is a lousy artist. But come the (heck) on! Don't just say "oh, nice image" or "good capture", just to say something nice. Save that praise for work,or artists, that truly deserve it.

To the artists of Caedes, and I'm including all medium here, quit slacking off. Before hitting that big ol' "UPLOAD" button, stop. Ask yourself,would I hang this on a wall? Would I print this, and give to someone else to hang on their wall?

By posting an image here, you're essentially doing one, or both of those things, just in a virtual, electronic environment. Have something funny, cute, or current to share? Why not post it on one of the dozen or so free photo sharing sites, and link it here?

As a side note, the mods are starting to crack down on snapshot/low quality images more and more recently. So if you want to avoid offense, you're probably better off self evaluating as mentioned above and just not uploading something that has a chance of being rejected in the first place.

It's definately happing a lot now.. i've noticed it happens a lot on the comment request images.. I think a lot of people think "ohh its a request i better be nice".. There was one image that was blurry and all the comments before mine were how good it was.. when i commented that it was too blurry, I got a message asking why i was being mean, and that i was the only one who had a problem with it..

as for fractals, yes there are a few that are posting the first thing that comes up on the screen to me that is a "Snapshot" fractal and I think those need to be addressed too, don't discourage the members from making them just point out that its a fractal snapshot as nothing has been done with it if they post another one like it, it will be rejected maybe give them a link to a tutorial.. Mods like Sam and Keith know what it looks like, or have someone who knows about fractals to deal with the fractal uploads.

Whatcha talkin' 'bout Willis??

I know whatcha mean brother...I'm sometimes bad on a critique as I feel I have nuttin' to offer sometimes. I try to help those who ask for help and that I can perhaps help!! I agree with Jac's on the fractal thang too, it's not just photos, I see some fractals where it's like they opened Apop and rendered what's there without a thought....ugh!!

Also, there's this feller that re-works and post a bunch of NASA photos, when I know this kid has a ton of GREAT ideas and knowledge and it seems to go by the wayside. Would LUV to see you open up more on your own work Uncle Phil!! 'Cause YOU 'da man!! I seen the stuff you can do, and it's amazing the talent within!! Go ahead and unleash the BEAST!!

SHOW ME THE MONEY!! Whip me, spank me, make me bleed...wantin' more!!

8~)

Sorry, forgot to answer your question!!

YEAH, you're weird...but, I like weird!!

~tightens up the leather straps~

Randy – the decisions I make/have made as to what type of work I post here are based purely on commercial considerations for my own business which is why, for the moment at least, they are restricted to public domain stuff, reworking other peoples work and the occasional tut. That situation may change in the near future and it may not who can say.

The point of the thread wasn’t really to highlight the type and quality of images uploaded but the type and quality of comment that they get. It certainly is true to say however, that the ‘snapshot’ abuses aren’t restricted to just photography. As Sam mentioned moves are afoot to try and stem the flow of this kind of work but that has to be a two way street too. Mods don’t like rejecting people’s work so save everyone involved the upset and don’t upload it if you have even the slightest doubt that it may contravene any of the sites guidelines and rules. It’s better to avoid offence than it is to initiate it.

As for Jacqueline’s point about comment request images, I couldn’t really say for sure if that is the case as it’s a bit more arbitrary and I haven’t noticed it so much so I’ll take it as so that is the case. I have noticed it more when I have gone to an artist’s gallery after following up an image from the voting booth. Very often you will flick through the gallery and see that each image has roughly the same quantity of comments from the same groups of people all of which are very similar in tone and content regardless of the image subject or quality.

The singularly most annoying aspect of it all being that if you make the effort to try and buck the trend by leaving a comment that is both objective and if possible, critical in a constructive manner. One of several things happens:

1) Nothing.
2) It gets dismissed as rubbish by any subsequent regular poster.
3) It gets attacked in a wounded ego ‘how dare you question my artistic integrity’ style backlash.

The occasions when an artist will take on board what you have said – especially if it flies in the faces of the tide of syrup – are so rare as to be almost negligible. For me, it seems that many people have happily settled into a comfort zone clique and have become immune or intolerant to anything that rocks the boat. The worst case scenario of this being senseless retaliatory comments being left on the critics own images, hostile and defensive PM’s and/or vote attacking too.

The assumption is that if you post a piece of work here, you should be prepared to accept any comment made on it providing it is a valid one. The sites guidelines make it abundantly clear that Caedes is NOT an image sharing website for friends and families. If that’s what you want then you really are spoiled for choice elsewhere on the web. Here’s a few refreshers from the sites code that pertain to all of this:

‘Critiques of people's work should be constructive and if possible informative and supportive. If you don't like something, say so and then tell how it could be improved.’

‘Voting on images should be based on each image's quality and not the image's author. Regularly up-voting a specific user's images will not be tolerated.’

‘All comments should be mature and courteous. Any comments not in adherence to the NTV code will be moderated or deleted.’

‘Citizens shall endeavor to make caedes.net a better place (or at least not worse).’

‘Don't simply state "It's awesome" or "It sucks," such statements without elaboration are useless and waste space on the site. What's awesome to a 3 year old could be awful anyone else. You have to prove that your perspective is worth considering. The best way to do this is to back up your opinions with insightful suggestions for improvement.’

I agree with what has been said above me. Thanks for starting this Phil.
Sometimes I just shake my head when I read the flowery comments left by 10-20+ people on an image. Unfortunately, bucking the flow of the crowd creates hostility and retaliatory 'no comments' on your images! Childish behavior such as it is =(
I would imagine if a verbal poll could be taken, less than 1% of the 'offenders' would plead guilty as charged.
When I critique an image I often receive PM's stating that " it was intended to be blurred" etc....
This site has become a social club of validation for everything that is done by a large group of people.
The people that I can count on critiquing an image of mine have written above me on this thread...plus there is one other person. There might be the occasional 'drop-in' who will make an honest comment on an image of mine! To those people I say 'thank you'.
Your honesty is deeply appreciated. That is what has allowed me to grow in my quest to learn even more about photography.
I personally find it quite difficult to comment on 14 images per week that are posted by the same individuals.
For me, it takes time & effort to create something I feel worthy of posting for someone else to possibly use as wallpaper on their personal computer. ....or at least to the best of my ability.
My offering as a solution to part of this problem is to limit uploads. As long as so many are allowed per week per cadre as well as members, the snapshot, family image, non-artistic as well as up-voting will continue.
Comments will remain brief due to time constraints since many an individual feel the need to comment on all of their friends images.
I hope this this too shall pass as has some of the other behaviors I have seen in my 4 years here.
Hopefully, this thread is only the beginning.
Again Phil, many thanks for starting the ball rolling. ;=)

Everything is true as stated. Some people have left Caedes as they were fed up with being rejected by others for honest comments. Even with informative comments, the author would be glad to get an honest critique instead of sugary nothings. Follow on commenters were not as nice.

The trouble with commenting on poor quality fractals is that sometimes its the entire design that's bad, and not just one aspect of a design, like grain.

How do you tell someone *nicely* that they really should just have posted something else? There isn't a nice way to do that, IMO. I think that's a huge reason why people remain silent on the low-quality stuff. A lot of us were taught as kids that if you can't think of anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

I have many times seen poor quality fractals and I have made suggestions on how to fix grain bring out the colour and detail more, i've gone and downloaded the pic, fixed it then sent it to the artist to show how the difference is.. then i always say, if you moved the triangles, change the values, try different variations you will come up with a much better piece of work.. 9 times out of 10 i get "wow i didn't know to do that"

"How do you tell someone *nicely* that they really should just have posted something else?"

Welll ... I think a few things, that take some time, could be incorporated into the approaches in commenting.

Some general suggestions ... look at the artists', in question, profile page to gauge their age for one ... and then their body of work in their respective galleries to date, as well.

If younger, I err on the side of encouragement. And will do as Jacqueline is saying in her above post by making some general suggestions. Just point the way to a better fractal or photo in essence. Little bit at a time. Link them to a tutorial or two, which you can keep in a file to cut down on the time involved.

If in scanning their profile and work you notice that they don't make 'us' aware of what programs/equipment they are using or have at their disposal .. a suggestion to include some more relevant information in their images' accompanying narrative to provide a leaping off point for more constructive criticism could be considered. This would serve both photography ... kind of camera? ... and for cgi pieces ... which program was used?

With the thought in mind in the above that although this time round you may not have much to say or suggest ... perhaps next time you can and will. Consider this option as an 'out' of sorts for not wanting to say something not so nice or blunt or that which might offend.

And at the base of alll of the above is this, and taken directly from the site's guidelines in Giving an Image Review.

Notice these words there:

"Don't be afraid of hurting someone's feelings. As long as your review is mature and polite most people will love your attention."

Summarizing; size up or make a best guess as to who your intended recipient is ... and say something constructive if possible, provide a link or two pointing them in the right direction and that should cover those instances wherein you find yourself with nothing 'nice to say'.

It all takes a little time. Better to use that time constructively yourself as opposed to considering the fallout of your words or actions, methinks.

Opinions are sorta like buttholes.....:-) "Everybody's got one".

I hear all your sayin in this thread, and completely agree. However, it IS a "Wallpaper" site, my personal opinion, the best, but a "Wallpaper" site none the less.

I don't get all "upidy" about anything I post. My Photography, and Vue and Terragen work is basically for my Own enjoyment. I post here to "give" my Images for free to people who like them.

I don't need people to blow smoke up my ass. "I" Like it!!! I'm just sharin it. If you don't....well, "there ya go".

Aside from one Mod, who took one of my "Pet" shot manipulations and rejected it as a "Snapshot" upload....for which I was deeply hurt, offended, and spent a week in the fetal position on the floor recovering from this rejection..... :-)

Lighten up.
"Fan clubs" are how to get you up to "Massive" Karma! :-) Which is very important to ones personal status...:-) :-)

Seriously though....You're not gonna change people by tryin to "instruct" them in the etiquite the way the Mods want things to be. I take all comments with "a grain of salt". Anytime I get a real constructive comment, I'm REALLY Grateful! I honestly try to only post "different" shots or Render creations. However...."different" to me, may be "Snapshot" to someone else. So there ya go.

K-deez...the way it's pronounced,.... is still my favorite site to post on. "Snapshots" or not, I've met alot of people here, learned a Hell of alot, and hope I've helped a few with some Ideas and suggestions.

I always welcome any suggestions, opinions or feedback on any of my postings here. And trust me....You're not gonna hurt my feelings. :-)

Happy New Year Ya'll.

"My Photography, and Vue and Terragen work is basically for my Own enjoyment. I post here to "give" my Images for free to people who like them."

Um, no. Sorry to disagree with you, but that sounds more like the mission statement for Photobucket, Flickr, and Myspace. I'm all for sharing something with your friends. But that shouldn't be the sole purpose, or the main purpose for posting images...here.


"I hear all your sayin in this thread, and completely agree. However, it IS a "Wallpaper" site, my personal opinion, the best, but a "Wallpaper" site none the less"

So then, I would ask you, what do you suppose a wallpaper site is for, if not a place for people to share, and find, premium images?

Oh yeah, and one other thing.....
What the hell can ya say when an Image is REALLY, (Im MY OPINION) and INCREDIBLE Image?

As an example..Mimi's MGB 2 Image....it's just completely Stunning as a photograph! Least to me. To someone in the voting booth, it may look like a "snapshot" of a lilly pad....

Sometimes, just saying "Stunning Shot" is a bigger compliment than you may realize. Just the fact that someone "saw it on the front page" and clicked on it...says Volumes.

"Opinions".......

"Um, no. Sorry to disagree with you, but that sounds more like the mission statement for Photobucket, Flickr, and Myspace. I'm all for sharing something with your friends. But that shouldn't be the sole purpose, or the main purpose for posting images...here."

Ok, please tell me YOUR opinion of why YOU post here then.
I wouldn't waste my time with any of those sites you mentioned.

"So then, I would ask you, what do you suppose a wallpaper site is for, if not a place for people to share, and find, premium images?"

Just what you said. Just like all the other Wallpaper/Graphic sites.

I post my images here, in the hope that someone will appreciate them, and find them suitable for wallpaper use, or other personal enjoyment. If this wasn't a website, and I was printing my work, I'd handout my images if I thought someone would like to hang or display them.

What I won't do, is berate other members for trying to share their knowledge, or expertise with me on any of my images.

I saw a really bad and blatant example of the kind of problem I was trying to bring to light in this thread recently.

Three images had been uploaded at almost the same time – all were of comparable subjects with equally matched quality and appeal. Two were by new or very recent members whilst the other was from a long standing member. The two new members images had less than 5 views each and zero comments whilst the existing one had 35 views, 20 downloads and almost as many gushing and syrup laden comments. The two new members shots were at least as good as the older one if not better from some respects but had been completely overlooked despite ‘sandwiching’ the older one on the gallery page. What kind of message is that sending to new members? To me, an example like that couldn’t make this problem anymore obvious despite protestations that it doesn’t go on at all.

*What kind of message is that sending to new members? *

The message,SADLY, is 'if you want comments, get friends' or alternatively 'if you want comments, give them'

All this reference to syrup, sugar and gushing comments is actually causing me, and I am sure others, to abstain from commenting for fear of being seen as a syrupy gusher. They are only syrupy gushings if the image is not worthy of such words. Leaves those of us without anything to offer by way of advice, stifled.
Most of us appreciate opinions from our 'friends' despite the fact that 'friends' is becoming a dirty word. Equally pleasing are unexpected, thoughtful and helpful comments from 'non friends' I would imagine that most of these are reciprocated by most people, and so it goes on - the circle of 'friends' ever increasing, the comments ever becoming shorter due to time constraints.
If I say 'this is stunning' that is exactly what I mean - I am stunned by the quality/appeal of this image.
If it is less than stunning there is always something else to comment on - colour, composition, clarity. if one is able to suggest improvements by way of tecnhnical advice then by all means it should be politely given. If it is not taken the right way then that is the problem of the artist, not the commenter. Receiving advice/opinions is imo the mainstay of this site and what makes it so popular. They dont have to be complicated - often just 'I may have been tempted to clone out the power lines' is enough to make the artist stop and think and remember for the next time.
It has been suggested elsewhere that a selection of clickable comments - good clarity - sharp image - good comp - etc would be of help in the voting/commenting. I think perhaps it would just lead to more vacuous comments for want of something better to say, something which may actually require some thought, and for this reason I am opposed to the idea.

As for the full size images not having been viewed - crikey, that stinks.

I still refuse to feel guilty about having a group of 'friends' (I prefer to call them favourite artists) whose work and opinions (and they are not always complimentary, far from it, but they are always polite) I value and enjoy.

*To the artists of Caedes, and I'm including all medium here, quit slacking off. Before hitting that big ol' "UPLOAD" button, stop. Ask yourself,would I hang this on a wall? Would I print this, and give to someone else to hang on their wall? *

Rob, I have friends in the world of the living and breathing who have things hanging on their walls that I would not give the time of day to. I have 'things' hanging on my walls that many would despise. So yes, I DO upload things here that I would never in a million years hang on my own wall, birds for instance, but do give consideration to the fact that someone else may appreciate it before I press the big ole upload button. As you are aware I churn out many flower shots. I enjoy doing them. I never print them, never display them, rarely have them on my desktop except to test out before uploading. I post them because I believe there are those who enjoy them, and who actually use them as wallpaper. They say they do anyway.
Its all relative, I agree that thought should be given before uploading, but like to think that most people do this, and just because I do not find any appeal in some of them does not make them unworthy or valueless.

I am still stinging at your comment Phil that to tell someone their work is 'awesome' is a waste of space on the site - if I think it is awesome I like to think I can say so - what if I dont have any suggestions to make? Just ignore it?

You all need to find your happy place:-) All I tend to read is blah, blah, blah...y'all need a copy of this.

"To the artists of Caedes, and I'm including all medium here, quit slacking off. Before hitting that big ol' "UPLOAD" button, stop. Ask yourself,would I hang this on a wall? Would I print this, and give to someone else to hang on their wall? *

Rob, I have friends in the world of the living and breathing who have things hanging on their walls that I would not give the time of day to. I have 'things' hanging on my walls that many would despise. So yes, I DO upload things here that I would never in a million years hang on my own wall, birds for instance, but do give consideration to the fact that someone else may appreciate it before I press the big ole upload button. As you are aware I churn out many flower shots. I enjoy doing them. I never print them, never display them, rarely have them on my desktop except to test out before uploading. I post them because I believe there are those who enjoy them, and who actually use them as wallpaper. They say they do anyway.
Its all relative, I agree that thought should be given before uploading, but like to think that most people do this, and just because I do not find any appeal in some of them does not make them unworthy or valueless.

I am still stinging at your comment Phil that to tell someone their work is 'awesome' is a waste of space on the site - if I think it is awesome I like to think I can say so - what if I dont have any suggestions to make? Just ignore it?"

Damn......
A real Person, with a REAL opinion. :-) LOVE it!!

I love this lady from New Zealand!!! :-)

"I saw a really bad and blatant example of the kind of problem I was trying to bring to light in this thread recently"

"PROBLEM"? Problem for who? YOU?

Ok, Ok....
I promised I wouldn't "Play" with the Mod gods here anymore.
I'll just contribute my money to support this site, and let....
No....won't say that either. :-)

I Like you Ms. LynEve.... :-)

I think there is also something else the "Mods" of this site fail to take into consideration.....

This is a "World WIDE" Site...

Opinions expressed in regard to Artwork on this board, may not always be expressed in the "correct english" termonology or thought line...expected by some Moderators of Caedes.

It's a big world out here.......

Just taking the time to comment on a persons work....I think is pretty cool.

quote .. I love this lady from New Zealand!!! :-)


Hey! back off, I saw her first


(*borrows Greg's smiley and exclamations .. !!! :-) .. *)

The point being made was that commenting was occurring on images routinely praising them without the image in question even being opened.

No matter what the comment being made, this practice negates its usefulness completely. To suggest that this behaviour is acceptable in any way is indefensible as it not only devalues the artist’s work but also marginalises other artists in the process.

It is nothing to do with ‘playing with the mod gods’ it’s a simple and basic courtesy to the artist, any artist, even ones considered as your friends.

" ... the circle of 'friends' ever increasing, the comments ever becoming shorter due to time constraints."

"Receiving advice/opinions is imo the mainstay of this site and what makes it so popular."


Lyn, you just inadvertently made my and the others opinions expressed against the 'treacle tides' ... as clear as possible.

Yep, got to say 'hello' on each and every upload of my 'friends'.

Employing a bit of foresight ... should tell you where that leads. Wholly, and totally towards contradiction ... and against ... your second statement, quoted above.

C'mon ... you really didn't think I would leave Phil allll by his lonesome did you?

Have a good good day. Truly.

and I'd like to stress 3 different things:

1) You do not have to be a professional, expert amateur or otherwise to leave constructive criticism. All it requires is having an opinion. "Wow, nice shot, I'm not sure the blue tones are really working for me, but the composition is great". From that point it is up to the artist themselves to decide whether they think this is something they want to play with next time.

2) While many people have gotten backlash from comments no matter how nicely left, allowing them to win by not leaving such comments devalues our site, and makes it harder for the artist themselves and others viewing and learning from comments to do so.

3) When the tide started becoming apparent, one member tested it out by posting something they KNEW was a substandard work - and received glowing comments on it. Does this mean a glowing comment should never be left? No, but it does mean that we should all step back and remember what this site's goals are. To share our work, in a community where we can learn and grow from the benefits of each other's expertise and opinions. Let's work harder to help each other improve.

Lyn, I was referring more to the quality of an image. I wasn't talking shots at content types. It's not so much about flower images, or architecture,or whatever else have you.

Far too many posts are sloppily, and carelessly composed. Taking a shot of something, simply because it happened to catch the eye for whatever reason, with no thought given to the image's final appearance... that's the kind of stuff we can all do without.

In addition, stubborn refusal to adhere to standards already in place is rude, and inconsiderate. It's saying, "I don't care about anyone else here, or at least, most of you. I'm going to just do what I want, because I feel like it." That's not tolerated in the "real world". Why should it be any different because this is a site on the internet?

I'm not taking shots at someone's taste for, or against a certain style, or type of imagery. If it appeared that way, my apologies.

It would appear to me, that in reading postings to this thread and others, that the following is pertinent in avoiding any respective topic from falling off it's tracks.

For your consideration:

**Facts in isolation or improper contexts, are often VERY misleading.

For example: Fact: About 1000 Ha of old growth forest is clear-cut on the island of Tazmania per year. What those who think this is completely unacceptable usually neglect to tell you is that there are almost 1.5 million Ha of old growth forest on this little chunk of Primaeval Paradise, with at least 70% of that total in National parks or other completely protected reserves.

So, it would take 500 years to cut down the 30% not protected. Context nearly ALWAYS makes a big difference in how we view or understand almost anything and everything: if the context is omitted, distorted, obscured, substituted, or otherwise bent, folded, spindled or mutilated, any fact, statement or statistic can be made to seem to mean pretty well anything at all.


Substitute 'generalized statements, replies and opinions expressed' for **facts ... as that is what appears to be the case many a time over from my observations.

Don't understand a comment or post? Ask a question to avoid unnecessary expenditures of time and energies hotly 'debating' a rather moot and unneeded point not germane to the discussion at hand.

Just sayin' ... that's all.

*raises hand as one of the guilty parties in having done so, and not seeing the proper context of a discussion or point trying to be made*

Les, I am well aware of the pitfalls of a large 'friends list'. I have approx 50 on my list,and perhaps 20 of them are NOT regular contributors. I feel no obligation to comment on each and every one of the images of the rest - as they well know, and most of them I have explained to that I do not respond to each and every comment I receive from those on my 'list' They know I appreciate them, as I do all comments, be they one word or 100, oozing syrup or sharp and to the point.

When it all boils down, as we are told repeatedly not to take much notice of the c-index, there would be little point in uploading anything if there were no comments made.

To return to the point - yes I agree Phil praise without due consideration, ie actually opening the image, is a waste of time and space - I agree, I agree :) and I know from experience it happens but please let me say 'It's awesome' if I think it is without having to feel guilty. I usually try to say why, but often at the end of a long list of intelligent and constructive comments, 'Its awesome' is simply an ackowledgement that I have seen and enjoyed it. In actual fact 'awesome'is a word I can not recall ever having used ! I dont do wow's either.

There is a small number of expert artists here whose consistently high quality work attracts superlatives - it gets difficult sometimes to find something original to say, so I may use awesome in future :)

"Just sayin' ... that's all."

:) :) :)

do you ... respond to "requests for comment" ... these images are usually lacking in comments (natch) .. but they are lacking in comments for a reason (usually) .. and when I get one there are often a couple comments there of the same date-period as my visit and I assume they also rec'd R4C's

and they often say "you are a wunderkind of the photographic trade .. I bow before you"

well, you get my drift


these topics have never been about not being able to say WOW, when deserved (my images, for example) ... yes, we will allow you to abstain from guilt at the use of "Awesome" .. hold your head up

if you (everybody) could just acknowledge that our points have some validity, based on facts, instead of arguing for the sake of arguing that YOUR comments are credible and how dare we question your integrity ... we are doing no-such-thing, we are simply pointing out a trend .. a trend that can be laid at the feet of human nature

as has been pointed out many times already: we are allowing images through in the hopes that the poster will receive guidance .. if that guidance is not happening, then there is little point in allowing these images through, and we can just button-up the acceptance guidelines and institute a no apologies rejection system .. like other sites have (*coughinterfacelift.comcough*)

is it your "job" to help a fellow member improve their craft? .. quite simply, NO .. a lot of the images you see will be from people who, for them, photography is the image they posted, and it can get no better ... but, then there is the inquisitive mind .. the member who is destined to write what Hilda wrote .. the "quintessential uplifting narrative of discovery and conquest, curiosity and sacrifice" ... the type of spark ignited in some that causes them to look at frozen food packaging for photographic ideas ... most of us have been there at some point in our lives

and it was good, no?

Objection!!
I do not think (most) people argue for the sake of arguing, although I can only speak for myself. I prefer to call them 'discussions' and I also seem to remember agreeing - with something - didn't I? Once, even twice - I am sure I did :)but a geriatric at 3am in the morning all wore out from commenting, voting, PSPing, uploading and discussing may be mistaken. :) ZZZZzzzzz

If we all sat back and said yes sir no sir three bags full sir you would be SO bored.

:) :) :)

"If we all sat back and said yes sir no sir three bags full sir you would be SO bored." plus then it wouldn't be a discussion ;)

"do you ... respond to "requests for comment" ... these images are usually lacking in comments (natch) .. but they are lacking in comments for a reason (usually) .. and when I get one there are often a couple comments there of the same date-period as my visit and I assume they also rec'd R4C's

and they often say "you are a wunderkind of the photographic trade .. I bow before you"

You're readin different, "Please comment" Posts than I'm gettin man....

Personally? Yes I do Keith....well 92% of the time. And that's where I give my most honest opinions. Know why? Cause Caedes asked me to.Bottom line here...in My opinon? Like that shit matters....

People are People, different tastes, different opinions, differnt languages and understandings. "A Picture is worth a Thousand words"

It takes time to upload a picture. It also takes a thought behind that upload...to spend the time uploading it...

I love Caedes. It's a "People" site.

As my momma always told me..."If ya ain't got nothin nice to say, just keep your mouth shut".

Here's what the sites guide to commenting suggests for those of you that havent seen it:

Do include one or more point that you particularly like about the image.

Do include one or more points that you don't like.

Do offer advice on how the image could be improved or how the author's skills could be improved.

Don't be afraid of hurting someone's feelings. As long as your review is mature and polite most people will love your attention.

Don't simply state "It's awesome" or "It sucks," such statements without elaboration are useless and waste space on the site. What's awesome to a 3 year old could be awful anyone else. You have to prove that your perspective is worth considering. The best way to do this is to back up your opinions with insightful suggestions for improvement.

Don't conduct private conversations between someone other than the author of the image. Use the Personal Message service or off topic discussion forum instead.


mostly common sense stuff there but as I stressed earlier, this thread was trying to address the increasing problem of 'copy & pasted' gushing commentary with no critique or critique that made no real sense as it had been offered without opening the image to full size to look at it. There have been many occasions when I have seen a thumbnail and thought it looked great or a bit ropey but viewing at full size can often proved to be the opposite of the initial thought.

It would be very rare to come cross an image that was completely flawless so whilst it is fine to say you really like something, the opportunity is always there to offer suggestions too.

It is not possible to vote without first opening the image full size. Could the same thing be done for comments?
To do either without viewing full size is, I agree, a waste of time, and an insult to the artist.

Now that is a good idea Lyn. :o)

And adding to Phils' thoughts about seeing the differences a full size view makes ... can be particularly true when it comes to viewing abstract images. Some are very gamma sensitive.

Lyn - thats an excellent idea worthy of consideration.

If there were a prize to give this year it would go to LynEve for her wonderful idea.

*leaves behind a plate of cookies ... that ... ahem ... was sorely missing as of late in some of the other threads ... with a reserved section of chocolate-covered shortbread for someone who shall remain nameless until she collects and enjoys them*

:oD

*sneaks in*

*nibbles on the edge of a cookie* mmmm… yummmyyyyy

sneaks in . . . . pinches a cookie (or two). . . . sneaks out . . . all without a word :) . . Mmmm . . much better viewed and eaten full size :)

A refresher course, if you will ... towards the end goal of a 'considered commentary'.

Rhetoric aside, that is.

it's clearly apparent that giving any kind of considered opinion these days is proving a thankless and fruitless task. Generally, even if people ask for critique, they tend to mean a pat on the back rather than any form of constructive criticism. if you dare to dip your toe in that particular pool these days it usually results in (at best) your comment being completely ignored or (at worst, and increasingly commonly) the image in question being deleted never to be seen again to preserve fractured egos. it's very disappointing to see large amounts of perfectly good images being trashed because someone has had the audacity to suggest it it less than perfect or that it has received a realistic score in the VB as opposed to an expected over inflated one.

"it's clearly apparent that giving any kind of considered opinion these days is proving a thankless and fruitless task."

While this may be true in some cases Phil I feel it is an over- generalisation as many of us DO appreciate considered opinions and advice - and we say so and often act upon it. Just recently I specifically asked for and recived opinions on an image, which were received. I have acted upon advice and prepared an alternative one (a different shot, not a duplicate) which will be uploaded shortly. The original one received the c-i score I expected (low) but I learned a lot from the comments offered.True Colours
Please feel free to 'dip you toe' in my pool of images - you can be assured it will not be deleted as a result.

Would there be a possibility of having a section specifically for 'works in progess' where those of us who wish to improve our skills and are not afraid of critisism could temporarily upload images for advice and opinions before uploading the final effort ? I know this is sometimes done behind the scenes but others would benefit from it being open for all to see. It would surely result in works of a higher standard being uploaded for inclusion in the voting system.

'I feel it is an over- generalisation'

you wouldn't say that if you could see the gallery that temporarily holds files that members delete. whole swathes of images daily get the boot for no apparent reason other than they appear to have less than favourable scores or criticisms.

Yes, I take your point - but I can not agree with "it's clearly apparent that giving any kind of considered opinion these days is proving a thankless and fruitless task." It is far from fruitless and I for one am grateful for any advice. It makes those of us who do try to appreciate the help that is give are tarred with the same brush as those whose egos are fragile and who can not take criticism.

We are frequently told to upload the best we possibly can - and it is understandable if comments and c-indexes are perceived to be a true indication of the image's worth then the temptation to delete it is not unreasonable. Sometimes our own judgement is overridden by that of others, especially if they are in the majority.

The only time I have been tempted to delete an image based on the opinion of others is when I recently thew a wobbly after a 91 scoring image was archived - yes I know it was childish but we are all human. I did not delete it, I like it too much, and after I had finished jumping up and down (privately :) ) I calmed down enough to realize - win some, lose some, and as long as I am satified with it, who cares. Probably no-one :)

I recently deleted an image, but although it had a low c-index, my reason for deleting it was that it was so soft and flat and pale that it just looked like fog on my Mac. (It looks slightly better on my PC monitor, which was where I made it, but not by much).

Anyway, every time that particular wallpaper came up on my screen, I frowned and said to myself "that's terrible." It annoyed me so much that one day I got onto Caedes and deleted it. I can promise you that the c-index had nothing to do with it, as I hadn't been looking at it in my gallery... it was battering away at the fringes of my consciousness till one day I swatted it down.

One reason why it was so soft and featureless: I was new to the site and was uploading pictures as JPEGs, which are then re-jpegged by the site... thus the one you could have downloaded from my gallery was even softer than it was to start with.

My point is, don't assume people are always influenced by the c-index when deleting thing; like me they could have been thinking "yikes" every time certain images came up. :D

That said, some do have a policy of pruning their galleries. I haven't done it yet, but that doesn't mean I never will... most likely I'd undertake it for my own reasons.

I didn't give up on the deleted image; I strengthened and clarified it. But as to whether I'll upload it... I don't know! So many wallpapers, so little time. :-)

Good good point Tootles. There are, of course, other reasons for members deleting works from their galleries.


"Sometimes our own judgement is overridden by that of others, especially if they are in the majority."

Well, Lyn ... I think that inadvertently you have made a point referencing and on the side of what is happening to an extent ... with placing a 'considered commentary', as I am calling it these days.

In that when the majority of comments placed on an image are of the 'wow' or 'awesome' calibre ... it makes it difficult, not impossible mind you ... to give a good and balanced review of the image in question for some.


"it's very disappointing to see large amounts of perfectly good images being trashed"

"whole swathes of images daily get the boot for no apparent reason other than they appear to have less than favourable scores or criticisms"

I believe what Phil is trying to convey, is that for a good image to fall to the wayside, unless allll comments are positive ... is a shame. Simply stated.

The author and other members lose out on some potentially valuable and constructive criticism and the opportunity to take what they will from that proffered critique. If ... that image disappears from the site.

And perhaps ... perhaps, the author of that critique feels that the time invested was somewhat wasteful.


In my mind, if 'we' let this 'walking on eggshells' mentality, when it comes to saying something 'bad' about an image, fall to the wayside instead ... 'we' would be better positioned to maintain the site's integrity as a place of learning and growth ... and not simply one of sharing work or images.

And yes, I know that you appreciate any and all commentaries ... the encouraging ones, those of kind appraisals, as well as, the constructive critiques. Not an issue where you are concerned.

it's all in the way the suggestion or criticism is worded. one can definitely tell the difference as to whether it's a sincere offer to help or just an excuse to be pompous and degrading.

Tootles - i'm not referring to the natural pruning of galleries of older images that most people normally do - im talking about the wholoesale trashing of new work that doesn't achieve the required amount of backstrokes or has the odd negative comment on it - albeit said in a constructive fashion

Every time it seems I try to give polite but honest feedback, included with something positive, I get a lot of defensiveness, even when being very nice about it. I think the problem with sites like this is that people expect them all to be like fanfiction.net, where anything and everything can be posted and people all say "nice story."