A respectful thought for all the victims of the 11 of september.
We will never forget.

No we won't. ..But I do think a lot of people need to be reminded of that day. ..its like everyone's back to being inconsideret and "mean" ..SOME people not all. ..just my thoughts. Thank you Joost.

Just wanted to say my heart is out to everyone who lost family or friends and to remind everyone to pray for all the little girls and boys who lost their parents.

& what has really changed?

I mean of course "The war on terror/terrorism."

This being the 3rd anniversary of the 9/11 tragedy.

I personally don't think anything really has changed, what sounded like a great idea has of course been bogged down by the politicians who were all for stopping global terrorism & the advocates of this buzzword & call to arms.

Is this just a sign of modern politics or was it really all just a waste of time & lives?

As ever, my thought on the subject is let the war dogs off the leash (Special forces infiltration & destruction of all terrorist cells, not just Al qaeda) & let them do what needs doing, take the terrorists out like you would cut out cancer, that is so not gonna happen though.

It sounds aggressive, but then again so is this type of cancer that is threatening the world we live in.

Remember to pray for peace. Things like 9/11 will continue to happen until the hearts of men change. Let love penetrate you and transform you. You can only change the world if you change yourself.

May God bless us all.

Love is a great ideal, shame not everyone plays that game by the same rules...

No I still can't understand how people can be upset from death when the punish the killer by killing. ...Doesn;t make sense to me. ..like the war on Afganistan. ..now war on Iraq is a whole different story. ..just my opinion obiously. And well said Matthew!(beowulf)

I agree with the above sentiment.
Saw a great quote from the pope that went something like 'to have peace, you must promote justice'

Thanks Joost. The loss of that day was a great one. And yet the loss of life around the world do to terrorism should never be over shadowed by one incident. Terrorism is a cancer of the world as is any other disease. We must one day become a world mentality of one people and erase the borders that cause the indifference of racial and ethnic ignorance. We must all start to realize what we do in one part of the world, must surly effect another.
Peace can only be brought forth by the first step of trust and then by the people of the world. Not the bureaucrats and politicians who hold there own needs over the people that they pretend to represent. We are no longer one country; we are a world with the doorstep of our neighbor a mere plan flight away.

Very well said! Eseically at the end.

Thank you. Unfortunately terrorism is a pour mans nuclear weapon. It is the last result of a desperate people who feel they can’t be heard or of a organized group that wants more power then they need. Either way we all must come to the understanding, that we are sharing the same place. Thus one mistake does not justify another in order to make a statement.

I'm very glad for this post. Good job Joost. Best wishes to all of those who lost someone in the tragedy, and memories to all of those lost.
As far as the discussion, agree with Paws. Hope for world peace is unrealistic, and "should" and "need to" and "must" are useless words. Actions solve problems, especially those involving violence. I'll aknowledge the uselessness of war when police are able to ask a violent criminal nicely to turn himself in, instead of taking him by force.

I am embarrassed by the naivety and aggression of some of the comments on this post. It's no wonder the world is so screwed up with opinions like that. I guess I just take for granted the ability to think.

I take it in part you refer to my view on this CH?

Does my view seem too aggressive to you?

& if so does that mean I have not thought my view through?

Your view was certainly one that made me feel embarassed and ashamed. As I inferred in my comment, no wonder there is such a lack of dialogue in the world when many think the solution is to go round killing each other: "As ever, my thought on the subject is let the war dogs off the leash ".

I'm sorry, but I don't see any thought process going on there. Your 'solution' is part of the problem. If you have given your opinion some serious thought, perhaps you could share with us the steps that you went through.

The steps I went through...

Hmmm, several tours of Northern Ireland for one, dealing day in & day out with known terrorists who could walk the streets with the greatest of ease & as though they were doing nothing wrong. & myself being a law abiding citizen & duty bound soldier could do very little about that, it kinda sticks in your throat...

So trust me, I have given more thought to the issues of terrorists/terrorism than many could.

I also know enough of what they get upto that the govts know & only inform those who need to know & make sure the media don't know, so the general public are unaware of. So my view is harsh for the general public to take for the most, but at the end of the day these people who are more than happy to blow kids up, women, men or whoever is at the given location of their well planned, wll funded terror campaign are a cancer that needs surgically removing. No amount of tea & biscuits while sitting around a table waffling is gonna stop them doing what they do.

Stark truth coming up here, they enjoy it.

I do not enjoy being a target, nor would I like any of my family & friends to be a target or a victim of some incident that could be stopped before it has a chance to be put into motion.

I have seen up close & personal how well funded & organized terrorism is, from that I as an adult thought it through. Because I was party to facts & the reality of the situation while defending people from them, it is an eye opener.

Yup, cruel to be kind. I am not talking about unleashing every infantry regiment & battalion for some all out fragfest, I am talking about sending in the specially trained troops who do this kind of thing for a living. Instead of bombing the shit of of mountain ranges costing millions of pounds, send in a small force & infiltrate the cells one by one & take them down.

The good of the many far outweighs the need of the few.

If something is not done about this growing trend for terrorism, the next 20 years are not going to be pleasant, & after those 20 have past the future will look even bleaker as it will grow & spread.

These people rely on the masses to cower & close their eyes hoping it will all go away, they know they can get away with what they are doing for the most part because no matter how tight security is, no matter how well guarded something is, a small group that is highly motivated & well trained & prepared is a massive threat & can do what it plans. & more often than not will do.

I would rather not live in a paranoid world where countries close their doors left right & centre, or make travelling or visiting them more akin to going to prison or getting arrested because of the shadow of fear these people create & thrive on.

However, if you want to take the opinion that I am some blood thirsty neanderthal who just likes seeing stuff getting blown up & hearing about huge bodycounts, think again. & do not be ashamed by my views, not in the least. My solution may not be pretty or palatable to you, but it is not part of the problem. It's just a means to an end you don't like the taste of, call it a dose of medicine you just don't fancy, but it would work, that is the really hard part to swallow.

So, touring in NI gives your opinion more weight? I don't think so. More likely it just narrowed your views.

Please don't assume that I am some bleeding heart liberal or naive pacifist. I am well aware of what terrorists are capable of, what they can get away with. I like to keep myself informed and I don't rely on what the govt or media feed me (in fact I take it with a large dose of salt).

Your solution to kill all the terrorists has a number of problems that occur to me offhand. Firstly I don't share your optimism in the ability of the armed forces to actually do this job - frankly I think they'd screw it up. Secondly, how do you actually identify the terrorists - what is a terrorist? where do you draw the line? Thirdly, it doesn't solve the problem - it just takes out a few fanatics and provides fuel for many more to leap into the gap. The terrorists are not the problem - they are the symptom. Like anything else, you need to address the root cause.

When I saw the pictures of 9/11 on the TV three years ago my first thought after the initial shock was 'If I was the Americans, I would be asking myself why would someone do this to us'. But of course nobody does ask those questions, they just instigate various tit-for-tat operations instead. As somebody once said, if you have an eye for an eye, then you just end up with no eyes.

"My solution may not be pretty or palatable to you" - I'm not concerned about it being either of those two things, but it has to be workable. As I mentioned before, your 'solution' just adds to the problem. From where I'm standing there are nutcases on both sides, and most of us are stuck in the middle hoping that some sort of sanity might prevail. To reduce international politics and foreign policy to the level of a playground argument is very worrying.

Yes agree with Matthew. But more on the issue that Anthony. So you're saying, Anthony, that violence is solving the problem of violence???!! That IS the problem!!! And Taz, kill off all the terrorists??!! Are you serious?!? That is impossible I would think. And killing off the terrorists would just make you the terrorist. ..killing. ..yes where do you draw the line..? ..because I think that all killing is an act of terror.. So where to dram the line? Again agree with Metthew.

" So, touring in NI gives your opinion more weight? I don't think so. More likely it just narrowed your views."

Not at all & not at all.

It opened my eyes to more facts thus giving me a better personal perspective. I treated the know terrorists the same as I did any law abiding person unless I saw them doing anything illegal, because that was my job & duty & being a well trained & professional it was how I was supposed to act.

I never said it game my view more weight, you asked I told. You don't know me from Adam so you may choose to think what you will, that is fine. Jumping to the wild conclusion that I am narrow minded in my views because I know or have been involved in operations which relate to the subject is a bit presumptious though.

What is a terrorist:
terrorist

adj : characteristic of someone who employs terrorism (especially as a political weapon); "terrorist activity"; "terrorist state" n : a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities

Persoanaly I go with "someone breaking international laws using violence & terror" myself, especially those involved in any military force that does not follow the rules of engagement/geneva convention & does not wear a recognisable uniform is also classed as a terrorist.

"Secondly, how do you actually identify the terrorists - what is a terrorist? where do you draw the line?"

Observe, gain information, infiltration, extermination.

Damn right someone walking down the street with a coffee jar bomb is not innocent, however that is not enough for a soldier to shoot them on the spot, they must be about to throw it or detonate it or be about to put someones life at risk before they could do, & even then only after issuing a challenge, that is a snap decision made with the information the soldier has at hand & even then it is a judgement call on his behalf.

The troops I am talking about are experts in OP's, very skilled at gathering & collating information from observing what they have done. Are not hot headed enough to see something they think is suspect then storm in MP5's blazing screaming death or glory, they are professional. They are trained heavily in covert ops & in dealing with terrorists, the rank & structure, the heirachy & general MO of their selected targets. So I have more faith in them being able to do the job than some pen pushing muppet sat in some office miles away from the sharp end who has had years of talks trying to calm the situation down & has got nowhere fast. Especially when the world I knew changes every day for the worse because the terrorists are getting a bigger & bigger edge/leverage because of what they are doing pretty much unchecked while people pussy foot around.

If it was shown on an international scale that terrorism is not going to be tolerated point blank, less & less people would be willing to pick up a bomb or plan some operation where innocents are going to get killed.

Hoping "sanity will prevail" is just sticking ya head in the sand hoping the issue is going to go away, it won't, it is just going to get worse.

You are placing your faith in politicians which to be honest are much less capable than the people I am banking on. I rank their ability to do their jobs very low, because they have shown time & time again they get it wrong more than they get it right & the end resullts have much worse reprocussions. They happily stand on one side of a fence when it suits them & when the popularity wind changes they jump the fence. Definition of a politician = Someone who is paid to tell lies.

"And Taz, kill off all the terrorists??!! Are you serious?!?"

Deadly serious, yes.

So your plan is to punish the killers by killing. ...makes a lot of sense...

If they cannot be brought in alive & stand trial for their crimes, then dead or alive works for me.

So long as no more innocent kids get blown up, mothers & fathers burned etc etc, it's all good.

The innocent have nothing to fear, only the guilty need be afraid. & they should be afraid, they should be very afraid.

They can't shoot some dude off the street walking with a coffee far bomb? That makes sense but isnt that what they are doing? In every war? Just shooting anyone? I'm pretty sure they dont give crap whether or not the person is throwing it or not.

I have to agree that I would rather a terrorist die than an innocent child mother father ect ect. But I still think killing is NOT punishment for a crime. It is a crime. ..but like I said to an exstent I agree with you. And I don't think anyone should die. (at least not killed).

Paws has a very valid point. There really isn't any way to stop someone who is about to throw a bomb at innocent people. However, killing isn't the *solution*. Killing is the "band-aid" in a sense. Band-aids may be fine and necessary for immediate treatment, but it makes for a poor long-term health treatment. There is a deeper problem... can you see it?

I have to point out that, as usual, the people against war, or killing, or violence to solve violence are pretty good at pointing out weaknesses and flaw in plans of war and infiltration. But none of you have offered your own solutions. So ok, we decide to be peaceful, and not go after the terrorists heads. What do we do then. Hmmm, I guess placing them in jail would be a better plan. So, we walk up to a small building, a camp of terrorists, wicked men, ready to kill anyone and not caring about their own death, guns ready to fire. And we say, "hey, you are under arrest, but we wont try and shoot you, cause killing doesnt solve killing, so please walk out into our handcuffs". I think not. Or how bout this, debating with other nations at the UN. I'm sure a bunch of rich politicians "talking" is going to solve the problem of terrorism. So, if not some form of war, large, or small scale as Paws refers to. What is your solution?? I'd like to hear it.

Its nice to be against violence, it really should be the last resort. The last, but sometimes the only way. What if you were walking down the street with a loved one and someone jumps your wife or gf or whatever, someone u see that you have to opportunity to take out. Do you just stand there and think, well I better not stop this violence with more violence, that just wouldnt solve the problem. Or do you take the opportunity to save your loved one.

And Matthew, Paws seems to be very articulate, well read, and experienced in the topic. The only naive statements I've seen here are one like "...isnt that what they are doing? In every war? Just shooting anyone?" Sometimes violence is the only way. Please let me know of others if you have them.

On that note, this debate should probably be moved out of respect for the purpose of the discussion by Joost.

I have moved the debate here "hopefully".

Please try and continue to use this discussion to pay tribute to those who lost and are lost from the attacks on 9/11

Thank you for your concern Anthony. Haha ..WE TRAVEL!

I know its a little late to talk about 9/11, but I think it's time we stop thinking that 9/11 is this sad day and that we should be compelled to remorse. It could be a happy day too. I mean, I know alot of people whose birthdays are on 9/11 including my brother. Wouldn't it kind of suck to have everyone be a downer on their birthday? Besides, on 9/11 I am truely blown away by how the terrorists, even though many people died, ultimately failed in the attempt to cripple this country. We cleaned up the mess, reestablished our lives, and become stronger. We should really be happy on 9/11 now and just know that we can overcome anything. I don't like to remember the terrorists. That just makes them succeed at us remembering them and the fear they caused for just that event. I'm not saying that we shouldn't honor or remember the victims, I just want to get accross that 9/11 should be remembered for how strong we as a society and country we are, and that it's my brother's birthday :D

My fathers birthday is also on 9/11. At least it makes it impossible for me to forget. Actually, my own birthday is on the day of the Port Arthur massacre here in Australia, & my partners birthday is on the day of the Challenger space shuttle disaster :-P

lol wow, all of our birthdays are on some type of horrible disaster whether we know it or not. Thats why I think we should just move on like we always do -_-

I dont think peoples birthdays being on 9/11 is a reason to be happy on 9/11. Its a sad day and everytime i passes I remember how I felt that day and I'm sorry but its not a positive feeling...

I'm not saying that you shouldn't be a little sad or remember those who died, I'm just saying that if we keep remembering 9/11 as this horrific day, it's as if the terrorists are succeeding in making our lives miserable. I choose to remember 9/11 as this symbolic representation in that we as a society, in the times of need, can pull together and perform heroic actions. Also that we can rebuild and overcome any tragity, just like any natural disaster such as all those hurricanes in Florida. You can remember it however you want, but I just choose to remember it as this amazing human ability to cope, reestablish, and become stronger.

thats nice, its always good to think positively

My mom's birthday is the 12th of september ..so I felt bad the next day because everyone's got a hangover of sorrow and just mopin around that day... I agree that the country got stronger but Bush saying to one of his people "What do we got on Iraq" meaning: how can we slide the blame on Iraq; on the 9/12. And I apoligize if I just made someone mad right now but that is fact ... I'm such a trouble-maker...

I also think that it would in a way be wrong to be happy ... I mean don't go around not crackin a smile but ... on the 11th ..just because on that day (i dont rember the exact amount but) if I rember correctly it was over 3000 people are no longer here ...no longer breathing air ...no longer loving or feeling love ..depending on what's in store in the afterlife.. ..I don't no, I know my views are going to be different from yours but this is what I think... Again apoligizes for bashing on Bush (or as I call him: Dubaya)

Oh I agree with you. But let's not forget that thousands of people die every year from car accidents, drugs, murders, etc. and millions of families are effected. If are going to remorse over one event, why wouldn't we remorse every day for those thousands of people who die every day. Some of which are killed more brutally than those in the terrorists attacks such as a rape or brutal beating to death. I do agree that I wouldn't jump around laughing on 9/11 but I can't just let it be a total remorseful day. How about I use the word "proud" instead of happy. That day makes me proud that we as americans can rebuild even after a horrific attack like that. There are tragedies every day, so why should we remember this 1 tragedy and not recognize the fact that there are many more that suffer from evils as similar as these? I'm not an extremist, I don't believe that we should be 100% proud and feeling victorious, and I don't believe that we should be 100% sad. I'm just saying that we should recognize the fact that there are other tragedies and that we are able to overcome them all regardless of severity.

I understand what you're saying, I doubt the numbers are that high on car accidents and drugs ..however murder the almighty America we live in (sarcastic) has over 11,000 people murdered by guns each year!!! UNBELIEVABLE!! And why should we be happy on anyday that someone has been murdered? Very good point. And I take in to concideration of your point on 9/11 now.

However lets not forget that the great U.S. is doing burtal things to those Iraqies too. Like the raipings a while ago. ...yet everyone has forgot about that ..they dont want to hear it or believe it. Yet everybody remembers and is sickened from Janet Jackson's nipple being exposed even though every human has them... Doesn't make since to me.
Though this was a little off of the topic.

*again apoligizes* It just made me think of that (I know of more terrible things that we are doing to them too but I don't think I should mention them).

I know, the United States didn't become the most powerful country in the world by saying please and thank you. We truely are brutal, even though most of us love to think we are always the good guys, and like the knights in shining armor. Most countries think we are brutal savages with no hearts. It's sad really.

And you don't have to be sorry...you're speaking your mind....

=D thanks. ..and: indeed. I know now that this is just completely for the "Bush behind or against him" but just so you see this: I'm just curious as to how you like: Bush or Kerry? Of course if this is personal for you you dont have to answer, but I like talking about politics. Me I'm a Kerry man. He seems to say good stuff and stuff but who doesn't so.. I'm more anti-Bush than Pro-Kerry.

Honestly? I think that this country is in such a big mess anyways. I can't really stand either lol. So when time comes for election day, I'm going to flip a coin. Heads for Bush, and Tails for Kerry. :)

if you are going to flip a coin, please dont bother voting.
For every goof that votes haphazardly, somes well thought out vote is cancelled out.
And I think the brutal savage view is a bit extreme, our methods may be questionable but we are still the "good guys" to an extent. We are not a terrorist nation or a superpower trying to take over the world.

once again this debate is misplaced...

Well the "Superpower taking over the world" notion is debated. And I don't really want to get into that, because some people would get emotional over it. Questionable, extremely. The one thing that bothers me, although I love this country, is the fact that we (USA) gets into wars that we aren't even involved in, unles it can come up with some monetary benefits. You have to admit that we aren't always the good guys unless we get something in return. Truely, we have enough money and power to really make a difference when it comes to world hunger. Our crops feed WELL over the population of our country, but very little is truely sent to where it's needed. We are the most powerful country in the world, that's a fact. Interestingly enough...Japan after world war II has been an "ally" to us. Even though we do not allow them to build an army...interesting.....

I'm just saying, we don't take over the world in the sence that hitler or anything evil would, but we in a ways, took over the world economically. Many countries depend on our country, or they will have economic chaos. Just suttin to think about.

we depend on other countries as much as they depend on us, hence the term global economy

Except that Bush doesn't agree to other types of global agreements ...anyways

And just because we aren't terrorist per say doesnt mean we "good guys" ...but I probably should go to the pres. debate page now...