I wonder why to photos posted on the same day f.ex. Castle of Gaasbeek (130 views - 46 upload-81%) and Castle of Beersel (128 views-47 uploads-77%) aren't treated the same way. The last one (Beersel) is already in the permanent gallery architecture and the other (Gaasbeek) is in the new images.Why the difference ??? Thanks.

I believe it's quite simply not a question of how old the image is, views, downloads, c-index or comments. All of that is at best a good indicator of quality but not always the same thing. I would think this is basically the same question as why some images stayed and some didn't during the spring cleaning... Don't you think so?

Agree with you Klas.But i am also agree with Mr Caedes and Sam. Whe need a system for the galleries i think.

Good. Sure I'll agree on that too. What then would you think should be the goal of this system?

I think that the work of the Caedes mods. is big and must be judged as very good, but for me they must work on a regular system for putting an image in a permanent gallery, without a system that works for everyone you can not reach it. It is like working in a great distribution, i did this for 35 years with a good system of co-operation.

Yes, I agree a (systematic ^_^) system is good. But I still think one need a clearly defined goal that the system should serve as a means to an end for.

Agree, and i think Mr caedes and the mods are working on this.

Ok, I just thought you had a good idea of how to do it since you didn't think it worked.

Hmm... Ok. No? Well I thought I was straight forward enough. If you don't want to discuss it further. For me the obvious answer to my basic question is. The goal of the selection system to put images in the permanent gallery must be, as I already gather it is right now, to let through only the images with the highest quality. Would you agree? The problem is how do you do that. Perhaps it can be mathematically calculated?

supposedly it is already mathmatically calculated :-p

I think it Anthony.But i think the gallery question need a solution.

Hehe... :D Well how can one calculate artistic quality? I'd say it would take nothing less then AI (at a very advanced (sci-fi) level) to do that without the judgement of a human mind as the final step.

I'd further say it works fairly ok atm. I've rarely seen (really ^_^) bad calls on the image mods behalf. (Kudos to each and everyone!) My question is: What is the question again? Or rather I was trying to get a better description of the problem. The first post doesn't pinpoint it much for me.

My question is to put it simple: What, if any, difference do you think it is between the both images in question. To be as clear as possible one could add follow up questions like: Do you think they are of the same quality? Is there any obvious thing about them that could render two separate judgements from other peoples point of view. Is the composition spot on, is the color just perfect and are there any slight adjustments needed to make them even better?

Cheers,
Klas

From my point of view there are no specific rules in following up the classification, the two castles are of great value in Belgium, why one is put permantly and the other not, about quality for me they are the same and only mods are allowed to give there judgement on it, so if I follow your explanation the other one is not good enough to be classified, i just want people to know about our grand history. Out of all this there may be a rule for classification, that's all I have to say about this. I had an answer for mr.Caedes on that matter, why such a big discussion for me the matter was closed. and Klas please read the explanation that Mr. Caedes gave ,it will beware us of much unuseful words.

Joost: I moved 'Castle of Beersel-1300' because I think it's a good photo: nice subject, good lighting with the sun and a good composition.
I don't decide to move 'Castel of Gaasbeek' because the photo is a little unleveled and the light can be better (no sun when you took it).
That's my artistic choice. It's never based on the c-index.
If another Mod has another artistic idea, he can move the second picture.

...Moving can't be systematic...

You are working and moving and you use no system,Pierre.

Don't agree, Pierre, not with the big explanation of Klas, if mods want to explain why something is not as i think why waiting so long but no, first everyone must have their say before mods give explanation, thank you for giving it and take my consequences now .

Pierre used common sense I'd say. I would say there is a system in it too. Otherwise I would not be doing more or less the same judgement. That was just about my point. I read and considered caedes response before posting. It does not deal exactly with the points I've raised. A little discussion is not harmful I'd say. I'll try to cut down on my unuseful vocabulary, I'm afraid that's just the way I'm expressing myself. :)

A small extra point: It's nice to know about the history of other countries and such but that will not alter the actual artistic quality of the photo. You state it's up to the mods to judge this (the quality) and (I guess) you (like anyone else) are in you full right to differ in opinion.

I'm not sure of what part of my previous post(s) that you (maybe) disagree about... At any rate I think Pierres judgement is fair and I hope he knows he's appreciated for taking the trouble to look through the images and promote the really good ones.

It's quite easy to see that the promoted photo is the better. (Pierre described it pretty well) I'm a bit curious how you yourself come to the conclusion that they are of the same quality but I guess I should not push my luck.

No discussion i delete. thanks pierre for the good work you do.

I am not agree with the way Sir PPigeon his working and thinking, i delete the most of all my images.That's the reason.

Joost: this site is just a wallpaper site. The staff try to promote the nicest pictures.
I personaly has ± 20 images in the new image gallery and the oldest is more than 5 weeks old. If no Mod moves it, it will be soon deleted. That's the rule on caedes.net.

I explained to you the reasons of my choice. You've to be positive: wait for a sunny day and take another view from this beautiful castle. Be careful of the light and the level.

The quality of this site is to push the members to be improved unceasingly...

I agree before what Mr. Caedes gives me a a plausible answer, and the maybe solution for the permanent gallery, i didn't mean to have a discussion with everybody on this matter, it is always the same on Caedes, a simple question leads to eternal discussions, as if a person doesn't know that one picture can not be as good as the other. I agree that it is not lleveled but the thing is that I cannot think that one person can judge about an image, if you should explore the permanent gallery there are in my eyes plenty of photos that are not due to enter into it. The principal matter that the judging of picturesdoesn''t have a specific rule, only one person decides which is often good but they are not invincible. Istop the discussion , posting also ,stay on Caedes because I thank the site a lot for the good things it gave me in the past, but don't forget Pierre, and that is not only my opinion, there is a lot of disappointement and bitterness about how the way Caedes works by moments, i receive a lot op PM. so i am practically involved in a lot of conversation with other members ,have always try to calm down, i don't know what the future is bringing but i noticed that since the spring cleaning there are things that are disappointing people and not only me,see who already left the site, and they were good photographers too and this is a pity. I feel sad about this. I hope that one day there are rules for common people. Without hard feelings!.I 'll post again when rules are't that strict for the galleries, and read what Mr. Caedes said there is no system at all, he said he was trying to make a system.Joost

You are taking it out of proportions... again.

It seems almost like two persons posting in your name Joost. Lately I see a fair amount of unuseful words too... Where did the "thanks pierre for the good work you do" go?

I'll call him Sir PPigeon too. Knight of Fair Decisions. Stop harassing him for the fine job he does. There is perfect sense in what he does. If you don't see it that's too bad but none of our problems. Keep it that way.

I really don't understand this rampage of yours Joost. I'm sure you got an adult angle on it if you think about it. Tell the people that PM you to be outspoken and free in their words. We all must have the right to speak our mind openly without persecution. As long as they don't post out in the open it's just hearsay to me and could be a figment of somebodys imagination.

BTW, by all means, all of you who don't like the state of things but don't dare to speak openly... Just give me a holler.

I was not going to spent any more words on it, but this for the last, and you may know that my wife does this time the typing for her english is better than mine, so if her words are offending you don't forget she is interpreting my feelings, if you cannot live with it sorry, don't forget that you also in past were ramping not being taken for full, so big explanations you may do. I have the right to be upset when i want. If you would not have interfered in this discussion, it would have stopped a long time by the answer of Caedes, no matter if i agree or not.But you are the greatest master in explanations, so thank for you writing. I have no really hard feelings towards anyone at all but am not still weeping for extra points .

Hmm.

Good.

Really?

Interesting.

As far as I'm concerned the word is free and no discussion is owned. You are as free not to answer as I am. I choose to discuss because I think things need clearing up. In many ways I think it got a lot clearer for me now.

I too have no hard feelings towards anyone. just don't say or by the means of other convey such hard things about people who are just doing a great job then. It would be in order to refrain from that I think.

This is enough talking for talking.

Sure. But what else should one talk for? ^_^

Oh, and my past ramblings is not comparable with this discussions I'd say. (But hey that's just me.) I wouldn't go about deleting my stuff for it either. Rather interesting that concept of yours. I've never been rude (intentionally it's safest to say i guess) and will continue my best to avoid it in the future.

And, yes. I do, like stated above, think you have the right to differ in opinion. That has nothing to do with telling people how wrong they are if you get me. "Right " and wrong in such matters as this is no simple question. It's important to let go in time and to know where the line goes. Your(?) tone can be quite harsh at times. It's an art to talk to people in a friendly way.

I still stand by the notion you are fairly judged all in all. Finally like Pierre so wisely said:

Be positive!

Why continue this discussion, it is not that i want to be judge differently, i received an answer ont this matter from mr. Caedes sorry, if you want to duscuss further you may
but for me it is finished, adios!!!!

^_^ So be it. The funny thing was that I was under the impression that I was having a conversation with you. At least I wanted to give you a fair chance of describing your input on the question at hand. Caedes post is duly noted as mentioned earlier. That was the start of the discussion not the end of it.

No? I think you got through some of your points at least. I'm glad for that.

ände på historia adjö. I hope you understand , don't have time to discuss anymore.

Klas & Joost: time to stop this sterile discussion... ;-)

The only way to improve moving procedure is that the decision could be taken by several Mods. C-index can't be a criterion.
But to apply a "multi-Mods" decision will take a lot of time to each Mods. Knowing that many Mods want to raise the standard of quality of the site, I'm sure the result will be a reduction of the number of moved images...

Note: do you know that viewing, voting and moving pictures take me 1 to 2 hours per day?
Hope you know this is a voluntary work for a marvelous site... :-/

"end/extremity/tip/bit/piece/ of/on/upon history/story/tail/tall story/affair/business goodbye!/farewell!/adieu!/Good day/bye-bye!."

(Obviously the first alternatives work best together.)

Jo det gör jag. Och det har du verkar det som att du har. :)

My story got a different ending. I think so at least. But I wonder who's the hero? It's usually so easy to tell in fairy tales. Maybe he will ride into the sunset after a fine days work accomplished. Either that or have a taco. ^_^

Farewell my good knight, maker of photos, starter and ender of discussions, judge of the mortals, prins of the righteous and fairest of fair. Farewell my good knight of pixels, soon comes another day to weave a new fairy tail and send the world anew your unique point of view. :)

Slut*.

(*The end.)

Dont' wait up kids for the next episode. But then again... Who knows. ^_^

I am not a usual participant in such discussions but I am upaulled at the way Joost has been received in this conversation. May I please state that I too have noticed that some of the images brought into Caedes recently have no great quality and also aren't the type of image that I would want to use as Wallpaper, which is that not the reason for the site?
I think he was only using those photos as an example of his not comprehending the system here in Caedes. I agree that the c-index has brought about much confusion and upset for a lot of members and perhaps the mods can do what they will with the images, and just have no c-index factor? Please forgive my boldness in expressing myself. My appologies Joost for the attitude I have seen in this discussion directed towards you. We all need to be very aware of the language barriers of many of the Caedes members please!

Do yoy have anything else to do Klas ? Working for.ex. and stop it now like Pierre is asking it is becoming to childish.

That would be my que then. Nice to hear your point of view.

So you think the image should have passed or what?

I try to let Joost explain, that has been my goal all the way, I'm interested in his point of view, but he doesn't seem to think we are discussing. I think he explains his point of view fairly well though. It's obviously more or less a question of just exactly what he states in the first posts. Better use other peoples work if one wants to raise a general point of view. I'm fairly sure I didn't try to offend someone. Free discussion is not a bad thing I hope?

Please let me in peace now Klas, it has been enough. Listen to what Pierre asks.

Perhaps it was not your intention to offend, but please go back and reread from the beginning! It is not Joost who keeps the discussion going. Here you are again referring to that image? It is obvious his question was directed at what makes one image different than another to get the pass. Did you go see the two images he was referring to? The images are no longer posted. I understand that you are seeing this as Joost complaining about the index of his work. I don't believe that is the case. He just wanted to understand and he was happy with Caedes remarks. Sorry for so much confusion. Let us keep the peace, this started off as a simple question!

Yes indeed, and it continued with some simple questions on my behalf, since I thought is was in order with clarifications. it's quite apparent from Joosts statements that it was indeed a very specific question of these two images (I naturally took the time to look at them). It's a fairly ok thing to discuss. And yes it does have wider implications but not as the first stop on the road it seems.

I somehow fail to see how I made comments appalling. You are welcome to point it out if you want. I furthermore fail to see what is wrong with me posting questions in a thread just because I want to know more. And no I don't have anything better to do right now. ^_^

I'm sorry but I didn't see Pierres post, or yours before my last one. We posted at the same time I guess. It took me such long time to find all the various ways to translate your Swedish. :)

In Dutch they say : foert loop naar de maan. literrally go to the moon and read before writing. Lets stop now.

Perhaps we should just let sleeping dogs lay. In other words, consider this a misunderstanding or whatever, and move forward. It was the attitude that was appauling to me and that you were not willing to end the discussion when Joost said he had enough arguing. ("You are taking it out of proportions... again.

It seems almost like two persons posting in your name Joost. Lately I see a fair amount of unuseful words too... Where did the "thanks pierre for the good work you do" go? ")
I find this was attacking Joost and accusing him as well of who knows what?
I prefer not to go on and on about this as I am sure it is just the language barrier between folks, not meaning any harm, just not understanding one another. But we all need to stop taking things too personal and like you said say things in a nice way to each other. I did not mean to imply that you were making rude comments, but it was the attitude if you can understand me.
Please forgive me for standing ground on this. I do not like to see anyone hurt. Not Joost and not you!
Let us not continue with this but keep the peace.
Hugs to everyone.
JuneBug

It's good that you stand your ground. I'd expect nothing less. I'm glad I didn't actually use offensive language, (I put great care in consulting my dictionary so I will not do so many careless faults and thus get minimally misunderstood) I never sought an "argument" only discussion. Surely there's a difference. (Maybe its just me?) We must all be able to talk like adults I think. I'd say it's some language barriere too. Quite naturally so when you deal with people like me who don't use english as a native tongue. (Thank god for dictionaries! ^_^) I get your point and agree at large.

My comment about taking it out of proportions was referring to him deleting much of his work again in response to the clarification of the promotion for one image and the lack of that in the case of another. (That plus plus a strange PM sort of implying I'd be happy with the aforementioned deleting. Why would I be? I never thought it called for such an action - hence my reply. I think one should keep the discussion out in the open) I'm not sure what you mean in the last commentary about "accusing him as well of who knows what".

I just thought as I stated that the post were so different. First "thanks pierre for the good work you do" then "I am not agree with the way Sir PPigeon his working and thinking, i delete the most of all my images. That's the reason." (cut and paste quotes) (This plus a PM with a very different use of english than most of the posts here.)

In fact it did turn out to be two persons. And I thought, like I said, but not in so many words, that was very interesting. (I could not have guessed this actually I was just using the figure of speech.)

I was going to leave it be earlier on before you posted June. (Even before I got to read Pierres excellent point of veiw. ^_^) I just feelt it proper to answer to the points you raised. That's the way I work.

Anyhow, sure, np. I'll leave it at that. As long as no more clarification will commence. ^_^

[edit] At Pierres wise request I'll refrain from posting anything more in this thread. (I didn't intend to post either as I hope is evident but I'll stop myself from answering any new posts unless some really (and then I mean REALLY ^_^) good reason turns up. I guess I'll consult Pierre first in such a case but I find it unlikely to happen really.) [/edit]

Next stop the moon then. :) Who's coming? I hear they got great cheese so bring some red wine will you.

Mr. Henriksson, it is now 5 o'clock in the afternoon, should it not be enough discussion on this matter please, stop it is becoming annoying, badgering too, this is better for everyone of us.

I think you all should keep in mind that although because of the discussions, commenting and voting, this site is somewhat of an artistic community. But its still primarily a wallpaper gallery for some key reasons.
A few simple reasons obviously being the way the classification of images and site is layed out and the limit to proportions of images. But the main reason being the quality control factor. This would be the artistic community on the internet where quality control is placed in effect. Other artistic communities simply set a limit to how much a user can have in their gallery, and then allow them to pay for more. While caedes actualy implements a detailed quality control function which is continually being revised. The site also is content censored.
The quality control and proportion limiting and content censoring keep this site from being an art gallery to a wallpaper site and one must keep this in mind when posting here.
There are other online art communities where you can upload whatever you want, no matter how gross, disgusting, offensive, or pornographic, no matter how professional, amateur, amazing, or unflattering etc. etc, and it will be critiqued by others and never be deleted. But those arent wallpaper sites, u will probably not be able to download full sized versions of other peoples work to use as a desktop. Just keep in mind the function of the place where you are placing your work.

Like I said this is a wallpaper gallery and its highly restrictive. I think the problem here comes in where budding artists and dedicated users begin uploading their works to the site, and as they develop as an artist they begin to really feel the restrictions of the site. And instead of moving on they begin to voice their frustrations and attempt to force the site to fit their growing artistic expressions. My advice would be to upload your wallpaper here and if you need more freedom in other ways, simply move on. Congrats to Joost on the construction of their new site, I'm sure you will be able to see alot of his work there that has been removed here.

after reading all the above discussion....

* clap clap clap *.... well done noobguy... you said exactly what i was thinking...

FACTS....

# 1... This is a worldwide community.. with various languages.. and i think that everyone on here no matter how limited their english language are communicating quite well...

#2.... Everyone has a different look at art... art is a personal thing.. everyone has different tastes.. what one person may think is a fantastic photo or abstract.. another will think its not good.. thats life..

I think this discussion has gone too far and has gone off track... what started out as a caedes question has gone into a clash of personalities... I agree .... END IT... and enjoy the site for what it is... MOVE ON....

Yes Noobguy, I agree with you, if possibly one or two of a persons images are deleted maybe every month or so. Having said that, could you imagine 106 of your images being purposely deleted? Many of which are Highly rated? That seems to be a little insane to me. But that is my thoughts. Quite insulting really when I look and compare some other site content to his...his images really don't deserve a huge blow like that.

I 'll never forget this and with my whole heart thanks the mods for this deleting. So a person knows where he stands. Thanks a lot great gesture.

Dave, I deleted most of mine. prolly close to 100 as well?

That's one thing for you to delete 100 of your own, it's another for 106 of your images to be deleted by someone else.

I just wanted to ask the MOD's a question. Are you that confident that those 106 images should have been deleted? I'm sure there are images that deserve to be deleted long before any of Joost's images. I've had images of my own deleted, but I couldn't imagine having my gallery essentially annihilated. I don't know about you, but if I was a Mod, I don't know if I would have the confidence in my own images to say that 106 of his images are worse than my own, and should be deleted, while mine remain. I have seen images in the perminent gallery that should definately not be there...

Do all of the Mod's communicate together to decide what should be deleted? Or is it up to the personal preference of that one individual? Seems to be an odd system, if it is a system...

Sorry if I am confusing anybody, but with the 106 deleted images, are you referring to the spring cleaning or to something else?

Yes it is about spring cleaning i was talking , in this in 1 day. with a lot of images in the permanen galleries and higher scores than 85%

Dave: about the cleaning session, all was said here.
Maybe another cleaning session next spring... ;-)

Good post Dave, it is a personnel choice from the mods, read what Mr.PPigeon wrote about accepting pictures in permanent galleries, yesterday I deleted myself 158 pictures so i do my own housecleaning and am not depending on the capriciousness of mods or the huge explanations from Mr. KjhOOO( mr. Hendriksson).

Mr. PPigeon don't forget you own images -cleaning out from your 10 pages.

Joost: we never asked to the members to make self-cleaning. That's your own decision.
When we made the spring cleaning, some Mods chose some galleries and begun to clean. That's all. I already said that the 'Fractal', 'Flowers', 'skies' and 'sunsets' galleries are very repetitive, then the cleaning was there more important.
You shouldn't feel aimed by that...
That's my last post on this forum. Thank's to those which want to understand ;-)

You think your are the king Mr Ppigeon.Give a example and clean your gallery.Affraid for your first place in the authors list?

I have stayed out of this discussion because I don't see it ending well. It is apparent now that it will indeed end poorly. Joost, I hope you understand that this arguement, along with deleting your own images, is not helping. You have been a large part of the site, with some nice photos and always a kind word for others. It's too bad that you still seem to see the cleaning as a personal attack. That is not the case. I also hope you don't take Noobguy's suggestion of "moving on" as a request, but if you are truly that unhappy here, then that may be a solution.

In response to the original question, not 4 days before you posted this, Joost, the mods began discussing a new system for image promotion. We are still working under a system that began over a year and a half ago (an eon in web terms), when the site saw much less traffic. We were discussing a way to update the "system" to make things more equal, less subject to an individual's thinking.

To Radjehuty: Are we confident about the "deletion" of the cleaning? No. There are still things waiting in a cleaning gallery for a final decision on their fate, many of which are Joost's. Things are now being removed by a voting concensus among the mods, which is also part of the reason the "New Images" gallery has bloated to such epic proportions. There have been complaints about images not being seen enough, but how likely are people to wallow in 250 pages of "new images" to find them? There are problems, yes, and we are working to correct them.

The problem is committees take time, and we'd like to get it right the first time. So please, to Joost and all members, have some patience. The mods are only volunteers who enjoy what they (and all of you) are doing here, and give their time and effort to further create a site filled with excellent art.

ok, me being the quiet on of the group, does not see what all the fuss is about. a question was asked and then answered. quite promptly i might add. i do agree that a little more clarification could have been given as to how the system is being changed and that did come a little later.
i thank the mods for the job that they do, i know that it's alot of work to keep up a quality site.

Well, about the repetition Ppigeon refers to, that is highly subjective. I think that if you're going to do some "Spring Cleaning", clean out your own images also. It is a personal attack when you try to save your own gallery and destroy someone else's. I heard this happened to Joost multiple times. A Personal Attack? Of course it is. I'm sure that voicing my own oppinion, I will also get my gallery destroyed come time of that deletion process, but I still have to say that you should not be bias, and really think about what should be cleaned out. Just remember that people put time and effort into images that they create, just like you do. I'm sure that if I were to search though your gallery, I could find many that deserver deletion before any of Joost's are. I am starting to question the dignity of the Site, even though this (I hope) is a truely helpful learning site.

not to be a nuisance, but I think you could move half the recent posts here to the spring cleaning discussion
which I thought was dead?
all about organization :-p

Radjehuty: No one has tried to save thier own gallery at the expense of another's. Perhaps you haven't been here long enough, but over 3000 (that's three thousand) images were moved in the "spring cleaning". All the mods, including Pierre and myself, had images moved. Even if Joost has had 106 images removed, this is less than 3.5% of all images in the cleaning. That's hard to call a personal attack.

True, but I havn't heard of any of the Mod's images being removed. I'm sure there are some that deserve deletion, everyone makes images that are expendable. Why would say PPigeon have no images removed from spring cleaning?

In my last post, I specifically said that Pierre (PPigeon) did have images removed in the cleaning.

i'm pretty sure the mods have all said they have had images removed in the several discussions about this topic. and if not, i think that simply means they didnt get on and express this, I think pretty much everyone was affected, some people only had 1 or 2 images and they simply dissappeared from existance.
its all a magic act!!

I was determined to stay out of this squabble, but it makes me rather angry when peopl make accusations without any basis whatsoever. As Xentrik has already stated, and as was stated in the spring cleaning discussion, and as would be quite obvious to anyone who took the time to look properly, all the mods, including caedes himself, had images removed from their galleries during the spring cleaning. I myself had about two pages removed, both by my own hand and by other mods. That's approximately 40% of mt images, quite a few which had a c-index of over 90. However I know that I am only one individual on caedes and I am mature enough to accept that this was for the good of the site. To make accusations that any of the mods are working to promote their own work and deliberately attack other members is misguided and ungrateful IMO. Be reminded that this work is voluntary and that caedes would propbably not eb able to continue to exist if it weren't for the hard work of people like Pierre, who is one of the most dedicated mods around. It could just as easily have been me that moved the image that started this whole debacle, and let me tell you I wouldn't have been anywhere near as tolerant as he has, but then he is a true gentleman.

I'm sorry if this has offended anyone, I didn't want to do that which is why I held my tounge until now. But these recent accusations which have no basis at all needed to be put to bed. I hope some of you at least can see where I'm coming from.

good points, perhaps he missed somethings in other topics, perhaps they simply werent read
but speaking of put to bed
consider this topic
and me its late *yawn*

It was a small explanation that Caedes gave in the beginning, why has waited so long, i thank him now for the more clearly point of view. I like Caedes very much because of his different angles that are given.Lot of long discussions could have been spared if this came earlier, and this was the same for the spring cleaning. Pierre's gallery was spring cleaned after i noticed and said on discussion that i didn't see picture disappear on his side. He is always speaking of his hours of work on Caedes(PPigeon), if it is that much and as a volunteer he is not obliged to do it and to stay as a mod..Agree with Dave about a better cleaning of his gallery. I still say that my cleaning was a personnal attack towards me, why i don't know.This for Pierre : i know you are a good photographer and i posted in january to you to congrulate for your skill but with the cleaning this was a little bit to much for me.I was not the only one that was surprised and disappointed you know about the cleaning from the mods.

Mocking Pierre and insinuating that Pierre is some sort of greedy selfish person only concerned about being on top of the author list is too much for me. I have held my tongue several times in the past over... blatant irrationalities and hopefully I will continue to do so. Please refrain from making such deriding remarks in the future.

I have nothing but the highest respect for Pierre.

Like some of the other contributors to this (and related) discussions, I too have held my tongue. However, I am amazed by some of the assertions that have been made on this topic.

People have a personal attachment to their images and it is difficult when they are deleted. However, it is a measure of our character as to how we deal with this. Too become emotional (even hysterical) is not a worthy reaction. This site quite rightly seeks to maintain the highest quality. The only 'mistake' I think the mods have been guilty of is that in the past they have been rather too lax about deleting images that should never have made it to the permanent galleries.

I have been on this site for some time, though I have not been greatly active in recent months so newer members may not recognise me. I know the people involved in this debate and I cannot believe the accusations that have been made.

Joost: I have known you since you first came on the site. I have enjoyed your unique contribution to Caedes.net and your great support for peoples' images. On this occasion though (and on a number of others) you are bang out of order. I am ashamed by your comments. I don't know you in 'real life'. Perhaps you are a very emotional person (and that is not necessarily a bad thing). However, I suggest in the friendliest possible way that you reconsider the comments you have made.

If you feel so strongly about this then I think (again as constructively as possible and with no malice at all towards you) that you need to think very carefully about whether you still wish to be a part of the Caedes community.

For anybody who wishes to reply directly to my post, this is a very highly-charged issue. I ask but one favour of you: please take a deep breath and think hard before replying. It is not my intention to upset anyone (though I recognise that my remarks may do so). I just could not stay silent any longer on this issue.

Matthew

Matthew, I have read your comment very good, I can follow you in many issues you are talking about.The discussion was closed for me in the early beginning when Mr. Caedes gave me the explanation about the system. Then KhjOO began with his endless arguments, and yes he worked on my system.But what I said about the PPigeon is what I feel about it. I am not withdrawing my words or apologizing for which I wrote for this is my sentiment. My character is maybe too emotional but i stay fair. In the past there where things that bothered me a lot that you as an outsider don' t know. I stay on Caedes with 5 images and that's all.These are my last words on the discussion board. Everyone has his own opinion and at least I am relieved to have spoken. Sorry about the hard words that I am writing now, but on my year Caedes i experienced that many people speak from two sides.I spend enough hours on Caedes, to have noticed this.For everyone who is hurt by this discussion , that's real life today, unfortunatelly.Now I am not going to flatter persons because some think i am wrong.Nevertheless Caedes is a good site.

Thank you for replying to my comments in such a constructive way. I understand that you are expressing your feelings. It is right that you say what you think.

I think that perhaps this discussion has come to an end.

Don't you all know that the C-index means nothing acoording to Mr. Caedes. He stated to me in personal mesage that the C-index, or votes have nothing to do with an image making it into a gallery. My most recent image has a 91 C-index.

I sent a personal message to Mr Caedes asking if this was high enough for my image to make into the gallery. His response was " The C-index doesn't mean anything. It has no bearing on whether or not your image will make it into the gallery. The only way your image will make into a gallery, is if a moderator likes it, and chooses to place it into the gallery. Votes, views or downloads from the public have nothing to do with it".

This also goes with contest entries. Public vote has nothing to do with who wins a contest. The moderator's vote, and decide who is going to win. What it boils down to is, it doesn't matter how many votes your image has, or how many people have viewed,t or downloaded your image. The only important opinion here is the opinion is that of the moderator. So good luck you better get to know some moderator's if you want your image to make it on this site.

Xwild.

I'll just say one more thing: If you're only concerned about winning contests and making it into the galleries and getting high c-indexes, you probably shouldn't be here. If you don't enjoy yourself then what's the point?

Thank you maybe you should post that kind of comment more often. And be more honest with people on the way the site is run. Why do people enter contest's to loose? if it's not important for them to win they wouldn't enter. I enjoy creating the graphics that I do, that's why I do it everyday. But, if an image has the most votes and the highest C-index of a contest and it doesn't even receive an honorable mention. It's only obvious that the public vote or opinion doesn't matter to Caedes. And that's straight from the horses mouth. It has nothing to do with enjoying art. it's about the people that supply this site with their great photgraphy and artwork everyday. Without them you wouldn't have a site. It's nothing against the Mod's your just doing your job..

Thanks

Holy Water dropped from 91 to 63 in 3 minutes, so see it doesn't matter.

Xwild

How dare you make accusations with absolutely no basis. I have no more "power" than you do to affect your c-index. To make such a post without even asking me about the issue first is completely immature of you.

Everyone is entitled to your opinion

Well then what does your signature say about you?

I should point out that the c-index is updated once a day, so the timing was a complete coincidence. Not that I think there's any point trying to make you see sense.

dude if your image hits 91 on its first day, check the views and downloads and that image was expected to drop very low. your posts here were very rude, uninformed, and out of place. and i'd like to say that you should have more respect for Sam, aside for his artistic talents (check his gallery :p), he does the job of maintaining this site completely free for YOU.
grrrr

Your right noobguy, Sorry Sam please except my apologizes.

Many images may get a very high or even a very low C-Index initially. This is an inaccurate number. If you remember correctly, I believe the Ratio of Views/Downloads makes the most difference. It may take a week or more to get a more accurate number. The MOD's have nothing to do with the success of the image, you do. I too am sorry for accusing the mods about a few issues, I based my oppinions on only one source. I hope you can accept my appoligies.

no views downloads arent the most.
its the average of the view/download ratio and the average votes twice
thats multiplied by the number of favorites(up to 10) on a logarithmic scale

its good to see people apologizing

Well, I don't think that we are completely wrong in this you know...

I think that for the cleaning, maybe we should choose what to delete from our own gallery. Like maybe a certain number. And if we don't do that in time, it's up the the MOD's. I'm not sure. All I know is, that there are a lot of rather devastated individuals, and I can't say I blame them. It never happened to me, and I hope it never does. I do know that it was bad for both sides, but I also don't think that either side is completely right or wrong. It is obvious we need a new system.

i never said u were competely wrong, and was more talking about Mr X
you werent rude with your post, just shared your opinion, which should be encouraged

Here is the whole point of the spring cleaning,to remove repetitive images so there is a variety of images.So keeping that in mind if your gallery if full of the type of images which happen to be the most repetitive like for instance flowers and sky scenes then when the axe falls you are naturally going to have more images removed.The system is set up for non professional artist to post pictures and have other non professional artist give advice on how to improve,the system is not set up as a popularity contest.People have forgotten about community and seem to only care about their ranking on the author list.I really don't see why a thread like this is even around because alot of these matters should be settled through the Private Message section of the website not on the public forum.I have been a Mod since the beginning of the Mod system and I can assure everyone no Mods are using their power to one up the next guy,I can also assure you if that mod was doing such a thing they probably wouldn't be a Mod very long.

Thank you, TBob. I was feeling guilty for volunteering*.

*A person who renders aid, performs a service, or assumes an obligation voluntarily and without remuneration.

Well, the thing is...I know the purpose of it...but all of my images are Fractals. Does that mean most of them will be deleted? I don't think they are repetative...but maybe you or other MOD's might...

That's not to say one isn't entitled to one's oppinion...but it kid of makes me un easy...and I think rightfully so. Again I do appoligize, but This also kinda makes me shiver come spring time. Hope you can understand my point of view...

The spring cleaning was only necessary because too many images were being put into the permenant galleries. Hopefully from now on the site will be maintained so that this type of action won't be needed in future.

All a user has to do to see if their picture is repetitive is just browse the various galleries and look over what is uploaded. If an artist creates a fractal then uploads it straight from the program it was created in I would have to say yes it will probably get removed,but on the other hand if the artist spends time with the post processing and it turns out looking unique there is a better chance that it will be moved to a permant gallery.Every piece of software that creates "art" looks certain a way whether its a fractal generator or a 3d rendering program ,its pretty much up to the person using that given piece of software to take out the stock look that the software creates and turn it into a picture that when a person looks at it they recognize it as the artist picture not a Bryce render for instance.When I do a picture I try to make it where if a person looks at it they don't have the slightest idea what software I used they just know I did it.

Dave you are very very talented with fractals. When I look at your gallery I get an even less repetitious feel than when I look at tbobs and he is one of the better artists on the site. I doubt most would guess your software because it was only recently discussed in the forums. I think you will be ok as far as the % of your images that move to perm galleries.
I generally look through fractal section of new images and it looks all the same to me but when I look at your gallery it comes off as very vibrant, eye catching, and diverse. You will be fine.

and I dont think u need to worry about one of the mods seeing one of your images as repetitive. I think like the users, mods try and critique what they are more experienced in. I remember Pierre saying before that he rarely rates fractals and abstracts because he doesnt understand them and his vote would be misplaced, and he mostly sticks to photography section because this is what he knows. I imagine others hold similar ideals, no?

Ah, ok I see. And thanks for complimenting my gallery. I am still kind of learning; only been doing this since mid July, and was worried that some may think my gallery is repetitious. I've heard from many people such things as "Those fractals...they all look the same to me", and the like. But thanks for taking the time to look and giving me an honest oppinion.

Maybe if all the members on caedes would do their sort of own Spring Cleaning, maybe this won't happen again.

Once in awhile, though not very often, I check out this discussion board. I have never participated before, but today I feel I need to. Last night I read the whole thread of this discussion and I must say, I was saddened to see the tone the conversation took at times.
What started as a simple question got blown way out of proportion and I was disturbed to see on more than one occassion, how quick we are to squabble and offend others. The real world is one stinking mess...can't we try to rise above that and keep our little world here at caedes friendly, fair, and beautiful? It's not just the art that made this a great site...it's also the support and friendships that have grown from this. Let us try to remember language barriers and not be quick to respond negatively. Make absolutely sure you understand someone before reacting and then, try to do so with respect...we can agree to disagree but with respect. As for c-index and spring cleaning issues...I don't really understand all of it but I can see for myself the new images gallery getting much larger and common sense should tell all that it can't go on that way indefinitely...there has to be some removal. I agree with those who have suggested that all members should do some voluntary conservation of their own galleries and when necessary, the mods do their thing, but I don't subscribe to the idea that the whim of one mod should result in the removal of any images. Some of the images removed or deleted are not just a fondness of the creator but also those of us who really enjoy the work of others. There should be some joint decision making in this. I sincerely hope caedes and the mods will come up with something fair and reasonable to all. There now...I've said my peace...if anyone comes back to this discusssion again...thanks for reading this...peace and love to one and all.

This thread, if you read near the end, has pretty much started to resolve itself. Sorry to sadden you, and I have already appoligized. Honestly, you can't please everyone. Also, I think it was mentioned that it is not just one MOD, I think they do converse which makes much more sence.

It is not just me that feels a bit uneasy about the cleaning, and I hope you can see both point of views no matter how irrational we were. Even if images are deleted, there are other sites and ways we can get our work out there. They aren't removed from history.

As for joint decision, I coud see why this would not happen. There are over 100,000 members, and thousands of images, and only maybe a dozen MODS that I know of. They can't just converse with everyone and decide which to remove as it would be too time consuming. I've done a lot of reflection on this issue, and I also see both sides and once again appoligize for being totally ignorant. I don't say I or others also concerned are completely wrong, I just ask that we all see where we are all coming from.

mod count=13
15 if u include xentrik and caedes
30 if you include ME

With so few mods and so many images...all the more reason we should all take some responsibility for our own galleries and clean out those images that are obviously of little interest or appear to have run their course...and I'm sure this applies to all of us eventually...that should help somewhat...anyways, hope everything works out 'cause all in all, caedes is one beautiful site....now, let's all kiss and make up. : Pat.

I will be introducing a discussion on this issue soon. Keep a lookout on the main discussion board page.

Thank you 'caedes...much appreciated by all, I'm sure. : Pat.