I would like some feedback on a possible policy change that the mods and I have been thinking about. I've written up a new policy on what we call "snapshot" photos. Please keep in mind that it is only in the best interest of the community that we consider these changes. Thoughts, criticism, and comments are appreciated.

Perhaps when someone would click 'upload images' you could have this page come up first with a 'continue on to upload' link at the bottom of it. Might make it clearer to newer members what's expected when you're goal is to try to make it to a permanent gallery. You've got support here even if the language is a little cold. Could be a big move forward. And I also predict a storm of controversy for a while.

the tone of the message is angry/sarcastic...I know if I would have just found the site and ran into that I wouldn't post anything no matter what the quality...the message however is true enough, and I do agree with it for the most part.

I agree with it in most part, and it does eliminate the need for the Mod's muddle thru as many images then needed.

I think it is hilarious and well put. "Other hints" lol... that is just too funny.... =D

Good call! Bring it on. ^_^ I'm not sure it makes it a whole lot easier for the mods, they still got some heavy decisions to make. But we have to start somewhere. And I'd say it's good to have a solid policy to stand by. Is there a similar statement for pure CG stuff?

I don't think this idea eliminates the need for mods at all. If anything it makes them pay more attention to images because they have to be more critical. I think this change would benefit Caedes.net well because there are a lot of images I see in the new galleries that are so-so art and it gets tiring to give the same suggestions for improvement that have more to do with the technique and not the image as art. I am in favor for this change.

End of the day it is a community but beyond that it is your site & the site must be what you intended it to be.

If those types of images are creating more work & are not the desired quality or type then by all means, point it out.

One small point, maybe outlining what it is more precisely they should be uploading is something to consider. As I do concur with rustectrum03 it comes off a little dry/sarcastic, so maybe some funny comments about what is desired could balance that?

I agree with most of the points, and do think that quality should be the aim, not quantity.

I know that several ideas regarding an FAQ section were tossed around in the discussion boards, fruitlessly. I feel that a set of resources, like the FAQ section or a “Photography 101” type of section would drastically improve things.

For example, if a member is unhappy with the quality of their shots and is interested in improving them, they could go to a single spot with member-written articles and learn about the fundamentals of photography as well some advanced tips and techniques, as opposed to continuing to post unsatisfactory images or “snapshots”. This, coupled with a clear set of guidelines regarding image quality and expectations would, in my opinion, significantly improve the quality of the submissions.

While the discussion boards do help inform and educate members, one has to dig through the numerous and often redundant threads, and a lot of the time, there is no post explaining the basics like lens focal lengths or composition. Articles could be written in response to discussion board questions, and just as general resources.

I for one would be more than happy to contribute to an FAQ or “Photography 101” type of thing, as I have already answered numerous question regarding cameras and photographic techniques, and feel that a more organized system could provide a wealth of information to all of Caedes.net’s users.

If some of the submissions are unsatisfactory in terms of quality, why not help new and senior members alike improve their images with a plethora of info, instead of discouraging submission entirely? (I do still think that the new policy changes are for the better though)

Anyway, that’s just my $0.02…

Good points you raise, Will. It would be an enormous asset with such an addition to caedes. (Especially if you and the other really experienced ones had the time to contribute to it.) I too was thinking something in that direction. A positive push in the right direction is a whole lot better than just to say what's a no go. (But the "no go" pointer is really needed IMHO.) We've come a bit down that road with the tutorials section I think.

As for the last question you raise it's really not that simple but I think "Photography 101” is perhaps the best way to do it.

I for one always try to come with some constructive input when commenting. It's just that some really don't take it that well or simply don't get it and I guess some seem to want to remain on a snapshot level, i.e. really don't want to try and improve... Especially since you can get great ratings and thus a maximum ego-boost for minimal input of energy. ^_^ A change in management of permanent galleries is truly the best answer here...

Sorry, I really don't mean to rattle the cage. It's just my way to say (again): "That was a brilliant idea, we really need this." (Both the suggestion from caedes and Will I might add.)

Yeah, so it's a little sarcastic, but I don't think that's a bad thing. There are other items on the site in that same style. In fact if some casual uploaders were deterred by the tone of the message, this would be beneficial. I think on balance this is a good thing - the images detailed are not the type that should be posted.

If a user attempted to upload such an image, would they be directed to this page?

OH, that would be priceless, Matthew! :)

I think, along with most everyone above, that this is definitely a step in the right direction. I like the humor with which the information was written, but then again I can tend to be a rather dry and sarcastic person myself. I definitely think people need to give these topics a thought before choosing to upload.

I am interested to know in what way the "rejection" will take place. Will each MOD decide independently if an image should be rejected? Will the uploader of said image be notified and/or given a reason for rejection?

I'm excited about the future direction of Caedes! :)

I think it's a good idea. It limits my contribution to Caedes somewhat (me being in a macro flower shot phase), but all in all, I think it coul help decrease the huge influx of low quality images.

I do agree with the new changes, but I am a softy so I find the tones were a little harsh. I am married to the king of sarcasm, so understand the underlying factors here. I hope there is some flexibility with the flower shots and animal shots when creativity is applied or when the shot is of a great composition. I am working on my photography lately and am trying to diversify, and it would be rather unfortunate if my skills end up dying as a lack of ability to participate for example if my shot was of a flower, lol.
Like that would ever happen, hehe.
Thanks to all the work and boldness of Caedes and the mods to bring these changes forward, and may all be receptive.
JuneBug

whilst I would agree with the policy in general it seams to be worded in a too draconian fashion and may actively deter people from visiting the site if it begins to smack of being elitist in any fashion...

I don't think it's really an elitist thing. Most are happy amateurs here... And I dont' think artists should be too sensitive about their stuff. Most of us, like me, know we must work hard to make something extra that people will actually find appealing. This is not going to restrain me from submitting my macro-style shots of flowers. I'll just have to try harder to make it on par with standards.

fair enough - it was just a thought on first reading it.

Streamlining the quality of content is always a good thing (just go to SpyMac and try to enjoy the hash they sling). There are probably other ways to save space if that is a secondary motive. As has been mentioned before by others you could limit gallery pages and have members self-police their own galleries. That would work for currently active members, with MODS cleaning the inactive. I've only got about six images, but i'm already eying the ones i'll delete.

Do you have a script that automagically makes alternate sizes of an image uploaded? Or are they created on the fly when somebody requests a, for example, 640x480 image. Do you have solid tracking info on how often this size (and 800x600) are requested. That would save 100-200K per image on site. Not alot, maybe, but you could put 37c in the corner of an image that size and use it for postage in the U.S. :c)

Just my two cents

I just read the "policy" and i agree it would be a good idea.... only thing is... some "artists" who puts their work on there will think its good quality (even if everyone else thinks its not) ... so there will once again be heated discussions and tantrums as to why was their work rejected.. either due to repetition or inferior quality... maybe the mods can PM that person and tell them why and how to improve it.. as for the way the policy was written.... i dont think it was harsh it was set out very clear.. direct...

I think we will probably have to PM people to advise why it was rejected, as there will still be images that are not accepted for other reasons (eg the image failed to upload correctly) and we wouldn't want people to get confused as to why their image was rejected.

Remember, we are talking about Snapshots here. I think genereally if you put a bit of thought into the image and take some time, your photo probably will be accepted. Although there will ocassionally be exceptions, what we are really trying to discourage are photos that haven't had any time or thought put into them and therefore really don't add anything to the site, do anything new or have much visual appeal.Anything that encourages more creativity is good in my book.

Not to put a fork in everyones acceptance of this policy. But, I, even after talking it over with Tieneke, tend to mostly disagree with the idea of this policy. The first thought that came to mind is the fact that quality control at the upload level will conflict with quality control into the permanent galleries. There have been debates in past discussions where people have complained about images not getting into the permanents and calling it an elitist site, and this statement was debated because it was pointed out that anyone can display their images in the New Images Gallery.
I also believe that this discourages new and potential caedes artists. I remember when I first began submitting to caedes, all of my images were rated 40-60 and none of them until Reservoir Park made it into the permanent galleries. Yet, a year later, I found myself atop the author list. Admittadely I can say that alot of my first few photos were pretty sorry quality. Cheap camera + no image enhancement experience yet. I think that if this policy were instated then, all of the first few photos I submitted would have been considered snapshots and not even have gotten a chance into the new images gallery. (even I look at them as snapshots). Thats saying I even posted, if I saw this policy I may not have even had the guts to post my work here.
Take into consideration too, as Tieneke has pointed out to me, sometimes people know ahead of time that these images wont make the greatest desktops and dont expect them to make it into the permanent galleries. They submit them anyways just to get a little critique from others to see if its up to par. For instance tieneke uploaded some photos recently that she did on black and white film, they were the first she'd ever developed in the dark room herself and she wanted to know how she was doing, she got quite a few comments, critique, and support. I also saw an image recently where someone submited the photo and in the description they even said it wasnt meant to be a great desktop but just to share with everyone and get a laugh.
One more thing to consider here is that most of the people speaking here in this discussion are fairly skilled artists, who appreciate fairly skilled art. I know of some users who do enjoy these pictures of people kids or their pets etc. And you would be removing what gives them a lil kick or laugh amist all of the serious art in the site.
Anyways, I dont want to be offensive or anything. But I just think that it doesnt really hurt to have any kind of image in the new images gallery, after all they dissapear anyways (they dont take up space). Perhaps if you want to separate these images from the "Good" art then you could make a snapshots gallery where it is understood that images uploaded there, or moved there from new images by the mods, it would only last a couple of weeks. This way they would still be seen.

Just some food for thought.

Hum, your view intrigues me noobguy. I understand the need for the new images gallery, but I also find myself overwhelmed with the same photo of flowers (for an example), which takes time away from other images. I think this wouldn't be as important of an issue if more people comment and post more constructive comments other than, "Good colors, nice work." I try not to do this myself but the vast number of new images puts a lot of strain on the, "regular users" such as myself. After all I do have a life away from the internet and I simply don't have time to commit to 50+ new images every day (although I would like to). I'm sure other users have felt this way. Do you agree that this policy chance could be avoided if there were more regular users who give constructive criticism or is it just me? lol, I am glad to see so many people take interest in this discussion, however.

Yes, I pretty much agree that this policy change would not be needed if people gave more "tough love" criticism. I'll give a cookie to anyone who can come up with a way to encourage it. =)

noobguy: Thanks for the comments. I'm also concerned about ways the policy would affect the less talented members of the community and I'm trying to think of ways to mitigate the effect of the snapshot policy on them. One idea I had was to still allow the upload of snapshot images but have them put in a separate place for only constructive critique (not displayed in the main galleries). Any other suggestions you have on the topic are certainly appreciated.

You must have read my mind caedes, as I was going to mention that perhaps there should be a separate area for certain images requiring constructive criticism, away from the main galleries. As for more people giving "tough love" criticism, I agree with that too except some like myself don't feel qualified to do so. There are times I've seen images I feel inclined to give a negative comment on but I don't because I have no idea as to how to suggest they improve on the image, in which case I just vote lower. But those who are knowledgeable enough should do so, then the person knows what to work on to improve. On another issue, if the aim of this site is to put out topnotch wallpaper, then I agree the "little darlings" (the kids and grandkids etc.) we all have in our lives should stay on our own computers. I would even go one step further to suggest that personal photos of members are not likely of much interest to the general public either and I do hope my friends will not be offended by this remark. I am just as thrilled as the next person to see the face of one of my caedes friends but there are other ways to share personal photos. Regardless of what type of image we post we should all consider whether it is likely to make for good wallpaper to the public as a whole. I am personally not opposed to the idea of limiting the number of pages we have for our images. It might give us all more cause to scrutinize our own images more carefully before uploading. I also agree with noobguy that the less talented of us may in fact improve over time if given the chance, another reason a separate area is a good idea. I also hope no one will discourage the people who upload flowers and pets. I happen to think that people like these providing they are well done. As for there being too many of them, I suppose one could say the same of sunsets and some fractals start looking the same after you seen a number of them. The less popular ones end up in the Lonely images gallery and eventually disappear anyways. Well, there's a few of my thoughts and sentiments. Thanks to the image mods for their great work and caedes for a great site and his willingness to involve all of us in his decision making. Let's all try to keep this a class act and be conscious of the large volume of images the mods have to wade through.. : Pat.

Either way some still will be uploaded. The images will still have to be filtered out.
I just think that there will just be a lot of use of the delete key in the private domain of Caedes.

A footnote to my comments above...we're all getting free space here to show off our handiwork...we get our egos stroked, we chat, make friends, and hopefully learn something..as someone once said...what do you want for nothing?.: Pat.

I think back to my first post on Caedes. It took weeks to convince myself to make that first one. If I had read something like the proposed policy I don’t think I would have made the first post. OK my first post was pretty ordinary but I think I have made some progress since then. That progress is largely due to the encouragement and support of Caedes members. I have also seen new members make their first pretty awful posts then go on to become competent contributors.

Now I don’t enjoy the obvious snapshots that seem to be becoming more common as time passes but I worry about losing latent talent before it has a chance to develop. Perhaps the policy could be presented as a guide to people who have made a couple of snapshot posts but not made any progress.

Good point Trisbert. My love for photography started with discovering Caedes. If I hadn't taken that first step, I would have become the half-decent photographer I now am (at least I think so). We should guard against discouraging people wanting to get some help/tips/critisicm from being able to post.

A "constructive critique" gallery would be an excellent way to still allow people to post their images and help them grow as photographers/artists.

It is nice to see the pleasant tone in this discussion. Thanks to all.
I would also like to add that when I started off on Caedes as well, I was quite amateur with photography but I continue to learn and diversify. All of this I owe to my friends here in Caedes. If you look in my gallery you will see how I am growing, and I would like to think that all of us are learning from one another, and I hope that this new policy and the changes it will bring, will only benefit everyone! Have a great day!
JuneBug

A couple last minute thoughts from me on all of this then I've said all I can....people of all ages are welcome to this site...it occurred to me that for all we know some of the more inferior or simplistic images uploaded may have been done by kids and we're being too harsh with them...ever thought of a gallery for kids?...just a thought...and for those who take exception to the tone of caedes initial comments, I think they were probably aimed more at existing members who should 'know only too well' that some guy surfing the net looking for good wallpaper is not going to be remotely interested in pictures of family reunions, or the closeup of someones' foot, hubcap etc. etc. And while some may 'oooh and aah' over the technical merit of some uploads, that doesn't necessarily make them good for desktop wallpaper..new members should be educated right from the start as to what is and what isn't acceptable in terms of quality and directed to another page for further guidance. I guess that's it from me. : Pat.

I think an alternate temp gallery versus deletion would work out fine.

HAHAHA! I loved the way the policy was said! I'm only 16 and I think the policy might apply to a few of my existing images. But the way it was seaid makes me much happier.

Actually its now more of an incentive to create! This simultaneously raises the overall quality of images on Caedes!

Thumbs up......and around.........and back down again.......and around.and back up.

I just came across the discussion and read all of what's been said so far. As I have less and less free time, I am no longer able to keep up with the new images gallery. There was a time when I could view and possibly comment on all the new images as they were uploaded, not because there were far fewer of them, but just because I had more free time. Now I better understand the difficulty that people have keeping up with the volume of new posts. At the same time I agree that the new policy may greatly discourage first-time contributors and take away some of what current members may very well enjoy looking at.

I personally liked the idea of having a "snapshot" gallery, the images in which would not appear in the regular new images gallery, thus reducing the volume there. The member could upload an image to the snapshot gallery instead of one of the new images galleries, or the mod reviewing the submission could place it in the snapshot gallery if they thought it belonged there. Mods would also be able to move someone's modest submission out of the snapshot gallery and into one of the new image galleries, if they felt it had the necessary artistic value or desktop appeal. It would be understood that images in the snapshot gallery would eventually be deleted without inclusion in the permanent gallery, unless a mod moved them into a new image gallery and they were then placed in the permanent gallery (as an exception to the rule). I think it would be nice for there to be a snapshot gallery to upload something I thought was funny, or just fully not intended for use as a desktop, with the daily upload limit still applying. It would be particularly nice if this gallery was separate from and did not saturate the new images gallery, and just had its own link for those with the extra time and interest to browse.

Also, adressing mesmerized's comment about self-portraits: I think we all enjoy seeing one of our fellow artists, but these pictures are never rated well, and are not desireable desktops. Apart from using the snapshot gallery to upload a self-portrait for a short period of time, knowing it will then be deleted, has any thought been given to allowing each artist one or two personal photos to be attached to their profile? This would allow members to have maybe a self-portrait and a shot of their pets or family for those who visit their profile and are interested, but without the unnecessary rating process and ticking clock that come when an image is submitted to a gallery.

There's my two cents USD, I think this pile of change is up to about 80 cents now, it'll be worth a cup of coffee soon.

Depends if we're at a diner or Starbucks.

I like Torques idea about personal photos. This photo could be fairly small ( say 640x480) with a preveiw on the profile page which was a bit smaller but big enough to be able to see some detail. I would like very much to see this feature added.

I like the idea also because I enjoy seeing shots of the artists in their day-to-day life, or with their friends and family, or whatever. The snapshot gallery would defiantly organize the site well if its understood the images are not meant to be fine art and just for fun, like the boards or PM conversations. I enjoy all of these here on Caedes.

I think it is a good idea. With over 100,000 members, I can only imagine the number of these photos which are received on a daily basis. It is a good idea - if we eliminate such photos then the quality of the site would only increase.

Just stumbled across this discussion as well, Being one of the "new" members and not all that tallented so to speak, I like the idea of A "constructive critique" gallery.
For photos to be moved there not fitting the crieteria of the main gallery.
Mostly I like the sound of constructive critique where maybe I would find more help in the form of well meaning criticism, so I can evolve like noobguy implied.

My 2 Cents

Well lets not get any unrealistic hopes here. I think the new gallery, if called "constructive critique", it would just be a nice word for snapshot gallery. I doubt you would actually get any extra constructive criticism. Thats an entirely different subject. In fact your images would probably be less likely to be viewed atall in this gallery. It simply keeps them from being completely denied entry to the site.

Oh! my bad...
I misunderstood the use of the additional gallery, although who would decide which photo's go into the snapshot gallery?
And wouldn't a photo being placed in the snapshot gallery be a type of shall we say constructive comment?

I love dry sarcasm and love the way the new policy was said..who doesn't like to laugh. But yes have a completly new catagory for snapshot images this way you can look if you want..or not. Maybe have a no vote rule for these pics. Sometimes members post pics of themselves and it's kinda nice to place a face with the username.

I'm deffinetly not one of the better photographers/artists on here, but I do know that the site sparked my imagination again. I had absolutely no desire for photography, and my drawing well.. I had basically stopped. I know that one of my images was heavily disputed over, and I was extremely hesitant to post it in the first place. I think that, and I know it's already been said by others ;) , but that I would never have posted pretty much anything had I seen such a disclaimer. Methinks that a snapshots gallery is a good idea, although the suggested policy made me laugh. I think perhaps have either the HKotDA and/or the caedescadre members vote on the matter?

But Caedes, I think you should take into consideration (not that you haven't already) how many people you've inspired with your site and that a policy like this might prevent future inspiration and possibly very successful artists.

I hope I am not too repetitive, I haven't read all of the posts above yet.

To start, I think the policy change is rather humorous, but I do agree that it may seem to blunt and harsh for some.

Sometimes I bring a camera to an event an take pictures. A hike I went on in the early morning hours is an example, and I took and posted a few pictures containing spiderwebs from that hike. I showed them to a few fellow hikers, and they enthusiastically demanded that I post ALL of the pictures taken that day. I tried my best to explain that it was an "artistic community", not a personal keepsake gallery.

I like the idea of a community of pros who sleflessly surrender their lives to answering the pointless, repetitious questions of the masses of idiots (myself as an example for the latter). I also strongly support Will for help in this position, mainly for the reason that we ahve had an identical relationship for quite some time now. :-)

I hope I have not offended anyone with this comment; I hope it is obvious that I am sarcastic as well, I just don't want to discriminate or appear resentful.