"Define critique.

Discuss the concept of a critique with students. Explain to students that critiques are judgments in which the author gives reasons to support their stance. Make the students aware that the most important element of a critique is the reasoning.

There is no right or wrong answer when students critique. Whether a piece of art is strong or weak is all in the eye of the person doing the critique. The only way to be incorrect in critiquing art is to fail to give reasons to support your assertion."


(Excerpt above taken from an online article By Erin Schreiner; "How to Teach & Critique Art".)



"As we make art, we all begin to wonder what others are thinking about it. Sometimes we seek out the input of others into our work. Sometimes we are asked to give someone else feedback. Either way the "critique" can be tricky business, and it takes both backbone, and soul for it to work right.


If you want to get a critique of your work:

* Find someone who is supportive and kind, and who believes in you and your work, but can still be honest.

* Make sure you trust the judgment and like the work of the person who you are asking to give you feedback.

* Be ready to hear the negative as well as the positive.

* Do not act on all the feedback you receive right away. Give it time to settle in, so you can sift through it.

* Make sure you are confident enough in your work that you are ready to hear the feedback someone has to offer.

* Do it in the daylight. Pick a time to do it when you are feeling rested and refreshed, not tired and irritable.

* Know that all opinions are subjective, and different people will give you different opinions about your work."


(Excerpt(s) above taken from an article by Deanne Fitzpatrick: "The Art of the Critique".)



"It’s important to approach being critiqued in a non-defensive way, for that’s the only way to see things less subjectively. It’s a wonderful gift to be able, however briefly, to see things from another’s point of view…suspending the “buts” that always spring to mind!

Critiquing another’s work is a very good way of learning of learning how to look more clearly at one’s own art. People learn more by analyzing another’s work, by figuring out its qualities, and its weaker areas. What’s really working to help people make stronger compositions is not being on the Receiving end of the critique, but being on the Giving end."


(Excerpt(s) above taken from an article by Elizabeth Barton: "On the Art of the Critique".)


... ...

... ...


By the way, Deanne Fitzpatrick was referencing critiquing works of 'art' ... in the genre of ... rug hooking.

And Elizabeth Barton was referencing critiquing ... quilts.

~le ... bump ~

You know, some reading material while you enjoy your morning/afternoon/evening cup of your favourite hot libation.


(*checks weather forecast ...*)


Make that ... cold libation. As in, glass of.

As it is below freezing point and the middle of the night in this part of the world I will opt for the hot libation . . .

Yes, there is a dearth of constructive critiquing.
Many of us view an image and can see instances where WE may think improvement could be made although accentuating the positive is more important.
I 'think' (yes, sometimes I do) I have a decent eye for composition (sometimes) and can also see if an horizon is not level etc and may suggest politely that the image could be improved in some areas . . . but I can also see if it is under/over exposed, blurred, oversharp etc and not having the technical expertise to give advice for avoiding these issues then who am I to point it out? What use would it be?
It is a confidence thing - and many do not have the confidence to be sure their opinions will be accepted.
Any small suggestions I make are for the most part taken well but I would be the first to admit that I do not do it often enough. However, if I can say this image made me smile/this is now on my desktop/ or something similar I would hope that the recipient would be as pleased as I am with such comments. So long as what is said is honest.
I sometimes see photos which to me appear over-processed and spoiled, but they have a high voting score so I doubt my judgement, and anyway some people like the over processed look.
The vast majority of caedes members are not professionals and even though there are certain aspects of every image to be considered there would be many different viewpoints about each one. I do not think mine is qualified enough to hold much weight.

Is critique dead ? Personally I hope not, because I love to get an in depth one.

Maybe there could be some more encouragement given to submit more Requests for Comment? Then those who want constructive criticism are in the right place and those who are supersensitive to what they may regard as criticism don't need to bother.
But I guess it would still be the same people who are willing and able to critique with confidence that will answer the call, and they already do it anyway.

Quote Deanne Fitzpatrick's article above . . . . "Do it in the daylight. Pick a time to do it when you are feeling rested and refreshed, not tired and irritable." . ... . . . . . that applies to giving as well as getting so I can not possibly critique anything just now . . . . .

If there are a multitude of fixable problems I see in an image, rather than leaving it all on the public doorstep of the artist/photographer, at their submission for all to see, I will often send them a PM outlining my thoughts on what they can do next time to improve their shot. I also let them know why I'm putting it into a PM instead of a comment and most appreciate that. I know because I've read a number of times about how this person or that didn't like the comment left and would rather have had the suggestions more privately offered.

"Many of us view an image and can see instances where WE may think improvement could be made although accentuating the positive is more important."

End result?

Without any 'constructive critique' added into the mix?

'You' get more of the 'same' type of imagery.

'Bahhh, on the C-Index ... MY FRIENDS like it, good enough for me.'

When 'yous' really don't. At times.

Then, it reaches a point with some ... some, that is ... members, that it is near impossible to inject anything other than that which flows from the 'mutual admiration' group.


Lyn?

You've argued ... circuitously ... back to your point of;

"I don't leave 'constructive critique' ... even if I see images that clearly have some shortcomings."

A near third (or more) of your above post points out that you've seen images from members that could benefit from someone ... taking a chance ... standing out from the crowd that does not have the time, or inclination ... to leave some feedback that could actually HELP those artists/members in question.



Nik?

If someone posts to a public forum ... they have to expect the good, bad, ugly and indifferent.

This coddling stuff serves no purpose (in my mind and humble opinion) other than to reinforce some behaviours/perceptions.



What if ... what if ... everyone/members left a commentary that included some of the points that are to follow?

"Do include one or more point that you particularly like about the image.

Do include one or more points that you don't like.

Do offer advice on how the image could be improved or how the author's skills could be improved.

Don't be afraid of hurting someone's feelings. As long as your review is mature and polite most people will love your attention.

Don't simply state "It's awesome" or "It sucks," such statements without elaboration are useless and waste space on the site. What's awesome to a 3 year old could be awful anyone else. You have to prove that your perspective is worth considering. The best way to do this is to back up your opinions with insightful suggestions for improvment."


Member's expectations, visitors looking to join for allll the right reasons (again, my opinion here ... I guess) would not be what it is today and as of this writing here.


This is getting ... old. 'Critique' is not a four letter word.

This site is/has devolved into that of one of simply ... sharing.


Gets boring real fast.

Then, comes the point and thinking;

'Hmm, only X numnber of members here ... I could/should go to (insert name of other image sharing sites here) and have a much, much larger audience to 'share' my work with.'


Go to ... Alexa.com - Caedes.net Site Info.

The numbers are down across the board. Traffic stats, pageviews, et al.


Why?

Les,
'MY FRIENDS like it, good enough for me.'
. . . is something I have never said.
Which friends do you refer to - those on my list of artists whose work I particularly enjoy? The whole commmunity? My friends and neighbours I live close to? Their opinions all count - certainly - but if 'it' is not good enough for my own standards, or if it is pointed out to me where it lacks, or the c-index tells me something then it is not good enough for me or anyone - one of the reasons I recently deleted 145 of my images.
Yes, I have said 'Bahhh, on the C-Index ' more than once and would venture to suggest there would be very few here that have not. Please put up your hand if you havn't :) I rely a lot on the c-index. I thought I could do without it but I missed it after just a few uploads.

You state that what I said condenses down to "I don't leave 'constructive critique' ... even if I see images that clearly have some shortcomings."
Beg to differ . . I DO leave constructive critique in small measure. I have already said I 'would be the first to admit that I do not do it often enough' and attempted to explain my reasons. I will add to that I don't do it well enough. Guilty as charged.
I may see the shortcomings but do not have the necessary skills to suggest how to correct them, apart from 'lop a bit of the sky off' , 'clone out the rubbish bin' or suchlike.
The operative word being constructive. Some of us just do not have that expertise.
I don't know an f-stop from a door stop.

We all contribute to this site and help in our own ways and according to our talents and confidence. And yes - time - and much of that is being taken up at present voting in two systems.


You refer to a 'mutual admiration group'. I prefer to think of the whole site as a 'mutual appreciation group' - appreciating and respecting the work and effort put in by all. Much of it behind the scenes by staff, and a good deal behind the scenes by members.
Not to mention those who create the images that populate the galleries.

Time for a cookie or three.


:)LE

sneaks back . . . fortified by cookie induced sugar rush to brain

Tentative and respectful suggestion (I think I made it once before) . . .
A Work In Progress Forum where advice on an image could be asked for and given before the final result is uploaded. Re-uploading same image is de trop unless 'substantial changes' are made and often the changes are very subtle as the result of help and advice given therefore the results of any critique are not seen. Could improve the overall standard of contributions, and generate discussion about technique etc.

:)LE

I respectfully submit that "clone out that rubbish bin" is useful critique even if you don't know how to explain the technical steps to do so.

For 2 reasons: 1) The person you are speaking to MAY actually know how to do so, but did not consider it worth the time and effort.

2) You may influence the person you are speaking to, to figure out how to do that, OR recognize that a shot that is great "except for" is not a shot. It's an "if only" and should be treated as such unless they are going to put in the time and effort to fix the "if only".

------------------------------

Lyn, you do great work. You know this. You know some of your efforts succeed more than others. But can I ask you to PLEASE stop taking to heart comments which do not apply to you? It's something I've seen you do several times - and I don't understand why. There are people to whom those comments DO apply, and as moderators (the image mods more than me), we've seen plenty of them. Not always here on the threads, but behind the scenes in raging pm's and complaints. So if it doesn't apply to you - assume that it's not MEANT for you and you don't have to defend yourself against it, okay? Purty please with a slice of Pumpkin Bread with Whipped Cream on top?

Nikoneer - while I understand the impulse behind speaking privately in PMs, I think that's a misguided impulse that in the end does more harm than good for 2 reasons.

1) It continues to leave the impression that ONLY good things should be said about an image publicly, and does not allow people to get used to the idea that disagreements may be posted without being an insult. Which is important to understand as our goals here are to share, strive, and grow, yes?

2) It deprives others of the perspective that could help them to learn and grow by seeing example rather than needing to stub their own toe on it. Leaving a comment is not just for the benefit of the artist, but can also be for the benefit of others.

Par example - I didn't know how to do the basic html coding we are able to use around here. Seeing somebody tell someone how to do it rather than using caps all the time taught it to me. And when I first started on this site, I knew what "depth of field" was - but I did not know that was what the name for it was. Had I never seen commentors talking about adjusting the "depth of field", I would never have known how to talk about it myself.

Understood.

Well, Cat, apparently you haven't seen any of my comments on the images of others. I do leave constructive comments all the time, and none of the "Neat photo!" variety. My last comment here mentioned if there was a "multitude of problems" with an image, that something a little more private might be called for... "might"... because that is what some members have told me. Something that they themselves told me. It's not an assumption applied to all. Last year, when I first came back to Caedes, Les himself brought a comment of mine on another's image to the attention of others in a thread, using it as an example of how a comment should be made (at least that's what Les said in his PM to me). So I've been there, done (and still do) that. I also know that if you comment on and view a member's images long enough, from their responses you can begin to create a picture of their individual psychology, in terms of how much help they would like, publicly. I only do this sort of thing, sending personal PMs of assistance, to those members I know are a little more sensitive than others. It's called caring about them as a person and not just a code name on a web site. It's making sure that something isn't lost in translation in a web conversation where inferences can too easily be made, a result of the absence of voice inflection and the real meaning behind the words we use. It's not assuming that every person on this site is exactly the same, with the same concerns and responses to what sort of messages they receive. I don't stick all of you people in a jar and called you "Dill Pickles" — some of you are still cucumbers. Some members prefer a tutorial in every comment, some don't. If it's all the same to you, I will continue to keep the personal preferences of individual members in mind, and not act on group assumption. I've been around enough years to know there are no pat answers, that everything is open to individual interpretation, including the question of the Art Council.

Nikoneer, you're correct, I haven't really seen your comments on images because I've been off-site myself for awhile due to life stuff, and have only recently returned to having enough time to be here.

Therefore, I responded to what you wrote above - because that is what I - and anyone else who is here and not aware of the type of comments you leave, will take away from your words in this discussion. It was not clear to me from what you wrote above that it was *mainly* when there were a lot of issues rather than a couple that could be called out amidst a compliment.

I fully agree that people are different and that you should taper your approach to the person you're speaking to. However, in doing so, everyone needs to keep in mind that this is a public place they are posting in, and be prepared for public comments. Doing so does not have to be a "pat" answer or speaking exactly the same to each person.

I also to be honest do not wish to cater to those who are overly-sensitive. Yes, there are different levels of sensitivities among all of us, but when we get to the point that we are catering to those sensitivities to the extent that it prevents us from offering valuable perspective and knowledge to others because we don't wish to hurt someone's feelings - we don't do anyone any favors in the end. People are capable of change and adapting, and that includes becoming somewhat desensitized as they recognize that a small amount of critique publicly said does not diminish them or their efforts, and is accepted by many as the norm. It's a goal of this site as part of helping each other to learn, strive, grow, to be able to "hear" or "speak" without fear.

Interestingly enough, I revived a thread you may find interesting in the Feature Bloat forum for someone else today. It's called "Critique Level". That should give you some more ideas as to my views on all of this. 8•)

As I said, there's a lot of misinterpretation in these threads. And so it goes. I think I'll stick to commenting on photos and art and leave the threads to those who find them palatable.

If you choose. It's not my intention to shut anyone down. I'd rather figure out where our misunderstandings are and resolve them. And then civilly debate our disagreements. 8•)

No, thank you. I really don't have the time for it and I'm not really sure why I posted my thoughts on any of these threads in the first place...my 35 years experience as a photographer doesn't seem to stand up well to folks who have been members of Caedes longer than I have. But before I go, if you want to know how I approach helping novices on this site, perhaps you should examine my comment on the "Photoshop this photoshop that" thread? I'm not hinting that you are a novice, just that my post at the end of that thread is indicative of how I respond with my comments.

This is a subject that has been bothering me for some time now. It seems that when I first joined this site there was more honesty, shall we call it, than there is now in the reviewing of images. I noticed over time just what is being discussed here now. It's all nicey nicey and folks seem to fear hurting someones feelings. Because of this my own critiques have become "softball" themselves. I even skip reviews at times because I have nothing really positive to say about an image that is clearly a snapshot but all who have viewed it before me "just love it" so I got to where I didn't want to be the "bad guy". I'm not saying that one needs to be a s*** - that's never called for - but a more realistic approach to critiques is most certainly in order. If an artist is consistently told that their "snapshot" is "amazing" then we will likely see little improvement in their work - just more "amazing snapshots". That's not the point of Caedes IMHO.

Why not, for a time, send all members a PM reminding them of their "responsibility" to the other artists and to the site itself? Say, bi-monthly? It could relieve folks of the "bad guy/gal" worry and maybe result in more honest feedback.

Tee, I agree - PMs would be more effective than broadsiding the most involved and responsible members here. Good thought.

That is exactly what I try to always do, give feedback that I hope is helpful, tips and tricks to getting a better shot, folded in with positive reinforcement (taking the chance of offending someone's experience level)... and I refuse to do the short meaningless comments. They don't do anything but create false impressions. If an image is perm-quality, that's a different story, but we know that for every perm-quality image on this site, there's a bushel basket-full that range from "You dang near got it" to "Oh, my... take the batteries out of that camera!" Even though I've been shooting photos for 35 years, 25 of those in a professional capacity, I don't have all the answers, and I can still learn techniques (as I listen to my bones creak) from others. We should all be open to giving and receiving "proper" critique and advice. I know, I know, I said I was going to go, but I was thrown a bit today with the news of Verena, so I'll go now.

Well, I meant correcting poor critiquing behavior, actually, rather than giving critiques by PM. The mods and others vent their frustrations at us here, but those they mean to correct don't seem to be around here much.

What I meant by the PM's was for Caedes to send one to all members - bi monthly maybe - to remind everyone that snapshots are not what the site is looking for and to remind folks to be honest with their critiques - be they good or bad. Basically, remind everyone of the code of conduct -

Naw, too spammy. It should be PMs to specific miscreants from Caedes that go, "Dear Leslie, Get out of the treacle club or there will be no perms for you ever again. Critique with meaning and keep the sticky little bons mots for your Facebook friends. Signed, the Vigilant Vicious Bloodshot Eye That You Want to Love You." Or something like that. I would be totally motivated though I might not come out from under my desk until convinced the wastebasket on my head was a suitable disguise.

To answer the question posed by the title of this thread... not for the dedicated minority on this site. Those of us who know how to critique will continue to do so. For the majority of members, it never once took breath and likely won't unless Geri does something drastic (and I really can't see that happening or being fully effective).

-Nik

Most of this sounds like a lot of patting ones self on the back. I will continue to enjoy the site in my own way and with my friends. That's good enough for me.

TicK

No, Ron, the back-patting is what we're trying to get away from in the comments. I've never had a problem with your comments, in fact, I look forward to them.

I think Tick is on to something. The enjoyment of this site is viewing great photos, wonderful art, and discussing them with friends.

I like to believe that all photos posted on Caedes were done by individuals who are proud of their work. Does this work meassure up with the pros. Usually not, but so what? It is in the sharing that one finds their personal rewards.

We do not need thought police, lessons on how to write our comments, or PM's from Caedes. We do not need to be put down for having friends.

When I look at the site and see who is leaving "feedback," I am not seeing much from those who say they always leave constructive comments. Maybe I am not looking hard enough. But, the over-riding amount of comments are being written by friends to friends. And, I think that is just fine.

I could swear I told myself I wouldn't get caught up in any more of these threads, yet here I am. Maybe I hope this site can be salvaged for people like Verena, who cared about it, selflessly.

John, I'm not being a member of the "thought police", but I am going to tell you it seems like you've got it all wrong. I'm troubled by two things you're saying.

One, is this:

"Does this work meassure up with the pros. Usually not, but so what? It is in the sharing that one finds their personal rewards."

As I've pointed out in past threads, it IS nice to share with others. And I don't find fault with those wanting to do so. But it's not, as I understand it, the primary goal of the site. That's what Flickr, Photobucket, and those sites are for. Share yes, but share you finest work, and be ready to accept that even if it is your finest weork, it might still be in need of editing, or in some instances, a reshoot. And to be clear, I'm not addresssing yor work specifically. "Your" is being used in the generic, broad sense here.

The second item?

"But, the over-riding amount of comments are being written by friends to friends. And, I think that is just fine."

No, it really isn't fine. For the same reason that inbreeding is bad , so is it less than optimal to only hear or read critics and thoughts from your friends, who are more often than not, like-minded individuals. Now, if you (again, generically speaking) are posting work with the intention of garnering only, or mostly comments from members of this group, then it is nopt fine. It's selfish, and for lack of a better way of putting this, not very brave.
I would ask that people revisit this thread. If possible, try to avoid any of the more inflammatory things said, and take from it something constructive.

Rob, I think it is pretty presumptuous of you to say that John or anyone else is posting something just to please a friend. I think you are out of touch with reality.

I am sure there is no one on here that posts just for their friends. Everyone is trying their best and seek help from whomever offers.

You reference to inbreeding was in very bad taste and really shows what you think of some fellow Caedesians. You stooped even lower when you brought Verena into the conversion and insinuated that others are not unselfish like she was.

I don't care for your remarks at all and I think you should have stuck with your instincts about not getting involved in another thread.

I have no desire to visit a thread started by you to indulge
your own fantasy as to your knowledge and self worth.

Sad, that that's all you managed to gather from my words. The personal attack disappoints me but didn't surprise me.

I will let you have the parting shot because I have said all I want to say.

Surely there is room for everyone ?
Recent sad events have shown that people are remembered and appreciated for many reasons - their humanity, their kindness, their willingness to share their creativity, works, and ideas.

There are some who will be remembered for their in-depth critiquing, and many more that won't.

(quote)Caedes is a close community of artists, designers, and photographers who share their work through the medium of computer desktop wallpaper. (unquote)


Following the link given above to an old discussion I just repeat here what I said then and still believe now.

"We learn more by example than lectures"

Open invitiation - come and critique my work - it will be welcome, not more, not less than any other comments. Any suggestions or instructions for improvement are taken on board. Just as I hope that any comment/opinion I may give to the work of others is appreciated for what it is - recognition, in two words or fifty, that the work and effort given to creating and presenting an image is appreciated, and any suggestions are received in the spirit they are given.


Also - I just looked at my Friends list and a more varied and diverse group of individuals would be hard to find. Different lifestyles, different nationalities, different ideas, different artistic genres. The only likemindedness in common is their participation in and loyalty to this site, and the time they devote to it in lesser or greater degree. And like (I believe) most members I do not limit my comments to those on that list.

For those who object to short comments that they consider are of little use I suggest that instead of saying in their introduction "Comments welcome" they should indicate that only in-depth critiques are wanted and simple acknowledgements that their image has been seen and enjoyed and perhaps something learned from are unwelcome.
That may or may not make a difference to the number and depth of 'proper' critiques.
I know what I think - what do you think?

:)LE

Bloo once told me that Caedes was not the place to submit serious photos of a photojournalistic nature, that it was for beautiful wallpaper, first and foremost. Perhaps I should have taken her advice. Since I majored in fine art and minored in photography in college, years ago, learning the formal style of critique as part of the curriculum, the sort of critique that is usually associated with serious art, I am beginning to see where that style of critique, and, by association, the more artistic style of art and photography, is not applicable here. Sometimes I need to be whacked upside the head with an idea a number of times before it sinks in. Sort of a northern plains Don Quixote, battling beautiful windmills, astride a golden horse with flowing mane, and wielding a Bogen-Manfrotto tripod for a lance (now, what's wrong with that picture?). Thank you all for helping me to understand that. Hors d'oeuvre", y'all.

Personally I feel there is a place for the more serious Art style images. They need to be posted with a view to being a desktop as this is what the site is about, but the site should not be limited to just chocolate box images. Some of the older manipulation work on this site is very strong, as is the computer work. It just seems to be photography that is judged by the single 'is it nice' rule. Which is a shame. And please, not a separate gallery. Let the images stand in their own right, even if it because they are dark, stark, edgy, grainy, B&W, etc.

Sorry, a bit off topic here.

Nik - because of your background and experience you are able to be the asset you are with your in-depth knowledge and ability to offer serious critique and offer suggestions. However not all members have that advantage. Many of us joined this site with zero knowledge about any of the art offered here, and we have learned from others, and dabbled and experimented different forms -photography, ca, abstract and fractals etc.

Chris -I think most would agree with you that serious art does have an important place here although 'serious' may have different meanings to different people.
There are chocolate box images and there are others that convey a message or a feeling or shock viewers into thought.
Room for all. To each his own.



What people prefer as computer desktop images is as varied as they way they decorate their homes, or dress. If someone prefers a 'nice' fluffy puppy to a mind blowing message in a picture that does not make them a lesser person or a lesser artist.

Today I have an image from the Surrealism Gallery as my desktop (I wish there were more in that gallery) and tomorrow I may have a chocolate box, or one of the wonderful fractals, or a picture of a place I shall never see in person. Maybe a dark and moody b/w photo. Because I have tried my hand at most of them I can appreciate the effort and time that goes into creating an image.

I can not understand why there has to be this feeling of division and separation.

Is critique dead ?
I don't know, but I think this excerpt from the first post matters "The ONLY way to be incorrect in critiquing art is to fail to give reasons to support your assertion"

To me the debate isn't about the perceived correct way to critique but rather it is the distain for those who do not critique the way the minority wishes.

If one finds offense to someone stopping by their photo and taking the time to express "something," then, as mentioned above, clearly indicate in your narratives that you do not like social comments and only want time spent on your picture that will make you a better photograhper.

We are a collection of individuals who will persist in doing things the way we like and what is good and comfortable to us. That either makes this a perfect world or it doesn't. And again, that is fine for me.

I hope Caedes never becomes a monolithic site where our shared photos are reduced only to technical analysis. I could use the potential growth, but would quickly becomed bored from the lack of fun.

This started as a art and desktop wallpaper site, not a photo-sharing site. It's really sad if those who want it to stay like that are in the minority.
And it won't stay like that unless there's a healthy balance of positive and negative critique. Right now things are very unbalanced.
(Unless of course you want to go back to having all "snapshots" rejected.)

It is becoming a monolithic site.

Okay folks, I get it. As Jimmy Durante used to say, see you in the funny papers.

it seems to me that this topic has upset too many members. perhaps we should give it a rest. our members seem to have opinions that are vastly and intensely different. we should respect one another. each member will comment in the way he or she sees best.