I'm not that mad!

On the one hand great comments for an image (thanks, my friends), but on the other hand a C-index of only 32 by now, for the same image, forces me to consider seriously whether I should quit with Caedes or not.

To me it's really a, hard to understand, hypocrite situation.
It seems to be that this voting system has become more and more a lottery, everything is possible from surprising good scores on the one hand to very disappointing results on the other hand for even good photographs.
Have to be humble, so I'm not saying however that I'm a good photographer, but in the four years that I'm a very active member on Caedes, think I'm able to determine whether an image is good or not, independent of my personal taste.
As long as some voters prefer to give 'snapshots' and other 'rubbish' good marks, and good images bad marks, my feeling for justice will be frustrated.

My opinion is not only based on what has happened to me. I've seen very good photographs of friends achieving a score that really makes me sad.

Therefore I'll need a couple of days to think it over.
I'm curious about your opinion on that.

Regards, Cornelius.

I've ignored the C-index for years because I couldn't find any meaning to it. If a high C-index number did something for me, I suppose I would have left long ago or put more time and energy into the socializing here instead of into the photography in hopes of raising the numbers. But I can't see that a C-index number low or high has ever done anything at all for me or to me.

It's hard to think of any number that's relevant to the quality of art - not even the price. Some crap sells, some brilliant work doesn't. What sells well in one year may not in the next.

A lot of functioning as an artist seems to be developing your own vision and then improving it, risking it, rethinking it, rather than just accepting someone else's judgment and doing what you think will please them. If the C-index scares me away from this site, I don't suppose I'll do very well standing next to my work in a gallery, eh?

I hope you stay, Cornelius. I like looking at your work and learn from it.

Thanks for these very wise words Leslie. Thanks too for your heartwarming support.
Regards, Cornelius.

Cornelius, please don't let the C-index get to you. Provided you are happy with the image and your trusted friends are happy with it then ignore the C-index. I've had images here that have received into the 90's and I once had an image that I liked that received a C-index of 5 but I don't get carried away with the high scores and I don't let the low ones bother me.
Stick with it Cornelius and with your talent and our support you'll be fine.

Steve

i understand your feelings completely. and now a new situation has arisen. when you upload a photograph that you think is good and no one pushes the art council button you could feel helpless and sad.

Ive had a C-index of 18 with 22 votes.in a contest no less, Dont let it get to you Cornelius, the way I view it is if you happy with your results, thats all that matters..Smile :) an take it with a grain of salt.. An I know how you feel !! HURT..

Please remember that the people who leave comments on your images are not the same people that get those same images in the voting booth. :o)

The only real benefit to opening your image up to voting and the c-index is that it gets more exposure (not... to be punnish, necessarily), but Mimi is absolutely right. The comments, and I mean the comments that actually say something, are the real litmus test of your work. I am certain that the members who comment very favorably on my photos (all two of 'em :) (JK) are sincere and, if seeing the image first in the VB, wouldn't give me a 3 and then oooh and aaah over it when they see my avatar next to it later. I believe the real artists among us are sincere in our regard of others' works. The low c-index numbers are coming from the majority who, I believe, race through the mandatory voting just so they can post their own, not really studying the images they're voting on. A friend here on Caedes once termed those members as not being artistically mature, not necessarily through their own fault or design, but that they simply don't understand proper critique. Perhaps making it mandatory is the problem. Perhaps this thread is where the solution will be brought forth by one of the geniuses among us (I mean...among you guys. Not me, of course.). Perhaps we should throw Mimi a giant party in Sludge Gulch, Missouri, for always coming up with the right thing to say. Perhaps Ringo Star will learn to sing.

Or perhaps not.

After reading the comments above, like to say in the first place "Thank you very much" for your effort, thoughts and support.
In the second place, think it's good to give a somewhat more detailed explanation why I've started this thread.

When we're uploading an image, we all know that it's 's our own free choice either to put it in the VB for a review or just not.
Realize therefore very well that one could say: "Don't complain Cornelius, as it's your own choice. You could have known that there was some risk for a low mark."
In this case, my reaction would be: "OK, you're right, but I've a good reason to do so." I suppose that (almost) every photographer has the ambition to have some images in the perms and from time to time on the Caedes front page. To me, this ambition is a good drive in order to try to improve my work.

I don't really know whether an image that wasn't put in the VB for a review, so without a C-index score, can appear on the Caedes front page or not, as I expect that an image is selected automaticly by its C-index score (a minimum score level could be required then).
I don't know as well whether the MOD's are selecting only images for the perms which have a C-index score.
I've tried to find relevant information about this subject on the site, but couldn't find any. What I've seen in practice is however - although there are a few exceptions - that images with a low C-index score are rarely selected for the perms.
Now Caedes is in the testing phase of the new Art Council, the situation has become even more unclear. If the situation will be, due to the new Art Council or not, that an image without C-index can be selected both for the Caedes front page and the perms, my new uploads won't be in the VB any longer.

Like to reply on Mimi's comment too. Dear Mimi, when I came home as a young schoolboy with marks lower than six, I had really troubles with my parents as they knew that I was clever enough to achieve good marks, but that I simply didn't have done my best.
The situation on Caedes differs from that as I've done really my best to offer the Caedes members a good photograph.
Once I was said that when an image hasn't got good marks, that in spite of some wonderful 'public' comments, it's a bad image indeed as the voters can vote anonymously.
One can be right, but on the other hand I can't believe this as 16 very well known, and straight forwarded, friends have confirmed by their unanimous comment that I've uploaded a good image, so my expectations for a reasonable score was not unreal, the reality however showed a score of 32, and referring to what I've said about my school marks, it's a bad result to me, comparable as a cold shower.
Hope from the bottom of my heart Mimi that you're right that the voters are different persons than the friends who have commented. If not, my frustration will be even bigger, as something different might be going on.
Got reactions by PM as well. I was told that I'm not the only one who have come close to quitting over it. Hope really that it's not indicative for the present mood here on this site.
Caedes is a great site, to me as well, giving people the joy of creating (photo)graphic art and showing it to other people.
Hope that the voters will consider this when they are in the VB and will take their responsibility: good marks for a good image and low marks for a bad one.
Will be apprecitated highly.
Cornelius.

One question hangs over this whole discussion for me: Why does the boss keep the C-index on the public pages after the years of blinkered angst it's caused?

Now and then I've wondered whether the whole thing was a social science experiment - like the one to see how much of an electrical jolt you're willing to give a stranger on the other side of a one-way glass panel.

Do people who get good C-index numbers on poor images treat others disdainfully? Fail to evolve as artists? Buy more expensive cameras?

Do people who get poor C-index numbers on good images become sycophantically devoted to people on the heavy-voting list? Attack others in comments and vanish from the site after being arrested for making inappropriate comments in real life with cans of spray paint?

Once was a time mods told us that the C-index was useful in selecting images for the perms because they could sort the incoming with it and ponder only those contributions above a certain score. Doing well in the VB was thus an image's first step to getting permed. Now in the Art Council pilot test I'm getting asked whether to perm new images that don't yet have a C-index. :::shrug:::

So I guess we're down to needing the C-index to give meaning to the VB task, even if Art Council perm votes are doing an end run around the VB.

Or perhaps Caedes has a different approach in mind for once he's got the Art Council working like he wants it to?

But if the server never recorded the VB scores and just assigned random C-index numbers, we'd none of us be the wiser, would we? Like Cornelius, we've all seen good images with bad C-index numbers and bad images with good C-index numbers. Any number will "do" because no number has meaning.

What if in alternate months we use golf-type scoring and the low C-index numbers win? What happens then? (Ummmm, well nothing, actually.)

Go back and search for discussion threads, wherein, and once upon a time ... the C-Index was suspended for a while as some bugs on the site got sorted out.

Read for yourself the angst that it caused some ... when the beleaguered and much maligned C-Index was not showing up on member's images.


Some that have responded/posted to this thread ... asked ... requested ... nay, demanded, it's reinstatement as soon as possible.



Ask yourselves these simple two questions, before weighing in on this part of this discussion thread:

1) When was the last time 'you' constructively critiqued an image?

Or, for that matter, said anthing besides the 'good'. (For some of you ... nay, most ... that is ALL that you comment and the extent of your commenting.)


2) When was the last time 'you' received any constructive criticism on your own images?

Allow me to answer that for 'yous' ... rarely, if at all.



Re: Question 1):

"You reap what you sow".

You comment 'nicely' ... ergo, you get nothing but 'nice' comments in return.


Re: Question 2):

Do any of 'yous' actually think that your images are beyond critical reproach?

If you do ... I would humbly suggest that 'you' have stopped ... learning, about your craft.




The C-Index's purpose on the site?

It remains as a device for viewers, visitors to the site ... to sort images. Bad, good, indifferent ... it still has some statistical relevance and meaning towards that of a 'good', 'great', or 'poorly executed' ... image.

Think some misunderstanding is growing. It's not my intention to get rid of the C-index system at all, as I didn't bring forward any proposition for it. My problem however is that I've seen a serious contradiction between an achieved C-index score and the given comments on this image. I really had the idea that I was fooled, so I was searching for clear answers. Know meanwhile that I'm not the only one who is dealing with that problem. While searching I've found out that there are some uncertainties as the result of recent (temporary?) changes on this site. Therefore I did a plee too for more transparancy. Wrong? I don't think so. The solution for my questions is however not to say to me that we should show a better 'self reflection'. It isn't a solution either to put forward new, in this thread not relevant, questions as there's a need for straight forwarded answers now to make it possible that these hypocrite situations soon will end.

PS:
Les, like to give you anyhow an answer on your put forward questions:
1) When was the last time 'you' constructively critiqued an image? My answer is 'I do it frequently'!
2) When was the last time 'you' received any constructive criticism on your own images? My answer is 'recently'!!

Do any of 'yous' actually think that your images are beyond critical reproach? No, please see my answers above, but that was not the intentional question.

Cornelius.

Cornelius - this site would be much the poorer without your quality images and your encouragement given to others so I hope and trust you will not allow your disappointment in the C-index lead you to leave.

The C-Index, we have been told, is not taken into consideration when an image is selected for permanent galleries.

The more I think about it the less relevance it seems to have, as more and more the C-i does not seem to reflect the worth of an image. It is a statistic - but very often a not very good one and I do not believe it has much true relevance towards what is a good, great, or poorly executed image.

I have seen images which even to my inexperienced eye are flawed - noisy, over processed, and poorly composed receiving high scores (and I do not exclude some of my own images from that observation) while other images which are superior on all counts (and one does not have to be an expert or a brain box rocket scientist to see it)are insulted by low scores.
Whether these are as a result of voters rushing through their votes or something less honest is open to interpretation.

Les, Regarding "re: Question 2)" above - I think that to suggest anyone believes their images are above critical reproach is unfair and as one of the 'yous' I would answer a resounding 'no', although I think 'reproach' could be replaced with 'opinion'
I will not answer the original Question 2 as it has already been answered on behalf of us 'yous'.

Too many people confuse 'critique' with 'criticism' both in the giving and receiving of comments.


I am sure others, like myself often feel confusion as to the main purpose of the site - is it
a competition to 'be the best'
a place to hone our critiquing skills
a place to learn by example and encouragement
or a place to share what we do and what we know with like-minded others and provide members and visitors with desktop decoration.



I would also like to say perhaps viewers and visitors to the site could be equally (and I believe better) served by being able to sort images with a similar system as we have in caedes control. i.e sort by views, downloads, dates, galleries, and if they are interested enough, by useless C-index scores.
It would also be fairer as it would include images whose creators have opted not to have them voted on. I believe some have opted out because they know in their own minds the value of their work.

Thanks for your wise comment Lyn. It does make sense to me!

Wow. What a thread. Some high emotions here. I too have been plagued by the low scores on shots that I KNOW are good. The very 1st shot I posted here has the highest score I've ever gotten. And it's all been downhill from there. Have I lost my talent after that 1st shot? Is Watcher really my best? One would think that after several years of being a participant here, my skills would have grown. I have gone out of my way learning and reading and experimenting with different effects and angles and lighting and distances.... But nothing ever gets better. But the c-index does not reflect in any way, shape, and or form my hard work in better learning my talent. What is wrong with THAT picture? I strive to get a shot on the front page. In all the years I've been on here, never once have I achieved my goal.
I thought maybe if I started voting on a regular basis more than the 10 required votes to post that things might change. So for a while I voted every day on all the shots the system would let me. I took the time to look at each shot, looking for focus, balance, light, difficulty of shot, and other criteria. 5 was my baseline. Higher scores for good things, lower scores by bad things. And I watched. Nothing I did changed a thing.
I'm a glutton for punishment I guess. I keep putting things up for voting because I WANT to improve. I have a few precious friends on here that truly care about my work and talk to me and help me improve. But the c-index on here that should reflect improvement is not doing as it should. I'm not a genius to figure out what can be done about it though.
I gotta go to work now so I can't finish typing all that is rolling around in my head but you guys get the point anyways.
good luck

Cornelius, since I have been at this site I have never ever seen what I would call a bad image from you. I enjoy your various series of images very very much. You allow me to enjoy your part of the world that I would otherwise know little of. Most of my shots are rose or flower shots as that is where my interest is the highest. I realize that such shots are not the cup of tea of very many. I try to keep the stinker shots to a minimum and delete some that seem to be less liked to make room for newer shots. I do use the C-index rating to help me do this elimination and that is about all I use it for. I just keep focused on my work not being what many others like and do what I enjoy and share the beauty I behold regardless. Keep your images coming Sir C, I enjoy every single one!!

Stan

A place to share what we do and what we know with like-minded others and provide members and visitors with desktop decoration.

I honestly believe that there are those that look at a picture in VB, then think...well, I don't care for this...and give it a 2, 1, or maybe even 0. They do not consider the composition or the quality of the image, but only whether they like it or not. This is where the "Lottery Effect" comes in. If you get too many of this type of voter for one image, you are sunk. On the other hand, if you are lucky enough to get voters that tend to vote on a higher scale, like myself, you will come away with a much better score....maybe even higher than you expected. For you to have gotten a 32, Mr. C....you must have had a tremendous amount of bad voters for that particular image. I can't even imagine you getting a score that low for ANY of your high quality pictures...which is all of them. I, too, get disappointed with my scores, but as long as I feel my post is OK, then that's good enough for me. I just shrug it off as being "BAD VOTING" by "BAD VOTERS."

Cornelius and I do share the same frustrations with c indexs. I allso have a friend Ironcross1977 who says he is quiting because of the c indexs. I myself have taken shots deemed well enough to be included in photograpy books and the same shot scored very low at caedes. Maybe it is time for a change of how the photos are scored. I dont want to leave. All of my friends are here Cornelius you stick with it. You are one of the most talented photographers I know.

I agree with Jim's post that too many voters get an image and simply say I like it or I don't like it. I do mainly flowers because as Stan said that is where my love for photography started and I have seen much bias expressed in discussions on contests etc. against flower shots - fine you don't particularly like flowers, but did you look at the shot with a critical eye putting aside your own bias. I HATE bugs but when I vote on a shot I look at the various aspects that make a good photograph not whether I like or dislike the subject matter. Jim's right, the the voting booth is somewhat like the Lottery - you simply don't know who's going to be the judges for that image so you need to please yourself and keep on striving to improve no matter what your chosen subject matter is in any given shot.

It is a big surprise for me to know that you got such a low score on one of your posts Cornelius because I know your images so well and how high their qualities are. I have also noticed lately that some impossible scores are being given out - as if a nasty teacher has taken over the class and gives even the best ones in the class low marks. I deleted an image of mine yesterday because it got only 20! It was a parrot which looked quite okay to me and was also praised by all who commented on it. No explanation for it other than it was just wilful devaluation. All one has to do is to enter a zero. So don't let these miscreants upset you so much that you even start thinking of leaving caedes, my friend. Just continue to give us your carefully composed faultless images!

I feel that anytime there is more than ONE person's opinion to consider you will almost always have times when we are forced to stand back and evaluate our own. Voting insures that. We hope that most use good judgment and/or standards. That's the best we can hope for in any majority. I participate in the VB thinking even one vote for the right reasons matters. I don't vote only when I have an image to submit. I vote when I can take a few minutes to really "look" and evaluate. Yet we have to realize not all "see" the same. : ) For which I am grateful!

I had once recommended that instead of showing just the average c-index number, all the grades the image received in the voting booth should be shown. Then you can see also how the image got that average.

I like Raj's idea Sea. I honestly believe there are enough mean spirited people in the world that like to raise havoc with the system whichever way it is.
You would think we we would judged by our peers but I do not believe that is happening. When you vote, it is like JimboB says a lottery on which ones you vote on. I tend to vote on the high side too because I am aware of of the work that goes into posting a good shot. I have never given a zero and I won't.
I get disgusted with the C Index as you well know. I go on a tirade for a while but my love for the craft keeps me posting my shots. There are some great photographers on here that I trust their opinions very much. You are one of them.
I am not sure what the answer is to get people to be fair and honest. It's something each person has to deal with themselves.
As long as their are thieves and hackers in the world, We will never get the full truth.
One last thing. I find it unbelievable that the views and the downloads don't match. How can you comment on a photo if you don't view it full size. I think it should be like the voting booth. You are not allowed to comment unless you view full size. You are not allowed to view unless you go full size. At least it might slow down the lazy voters that are on a mission to destroy the image.

My sincere thanks to all who have written a contritbution in this thread.

Your words are carefully chosen, much better than I'm able to do, as the English language is still a foreign language to me.

My true believe is that it's rather easy for me to achieve high scores, as almost everyone is fond of traditional windmill and butterfly images. But I prefer to upload good photographs of different subject matters as well, e.g. good taken maritime photographs.
People don't realize however that most of those images are taken in severe conditions. Don't however say that severe conditions must lead to higher scores, oh no! The quality (!) of an image/fractal is the only thing that matters to me.
What does make me upset to a certain extent, is that some subject matters don't seem to have the interest of some (?) people at all, and therefore almost will receive a low C-index score.
I've seen many comparable situations on this site.
Why can't people act like I use to do? Like to give you an example: I'm honest by saying that fractals aren't my favourite category, but when I see good ones made e.g. by John, Bruce, and other ones, they will have my respect and admiration, as I'm not capable to produce such art. They will receive high marks in the VB and sincere comments.
Having respect for somebody else's work, no matter whether you like it or not, is, in my humble opinion, a first step in resolving situations as desbribed by me above!
Cornelius.

I think that many of the people commenting here on this thread, yourself included, Cornelius, need to consider that while there may be some spoiled, rich-kid hackers, who didn't like they way some tacky piece of art they submitted to this site was received, are sitting in a room somewhere, trying to figure out how to do some damage to everyone else's work, there is another possibility. I know I've seen images of mine, including one that I think is the best photo I've ever taken, get such low numbers in the index, that I've wondered if someone with a grudge hasn't figured out a way to mess with those numbers. Maybe that's true. Maybe. I was a member twice before, here on Caedes, leaving one of those times because of the c-index. Perhaps it's also a simple matter of education? This site is a worldwide site, viewable in virtually any country in the world where an internet connection is possible. But just as one can see images of people using cell phones in a third-world country, it doesn't mean the general population in that country can afford a good education. Here in America, one of the richest countries in the world, there are plenty of places, rural and inner-city, where education takes a back seat to surviving. You mentioned taking photos in adverse conditions and the kind of photographic results that can generate. Those of us with education and/or experience in the fields of art, design, photography, and so on, are the ones who take the time to study the submissions on this site, understanding what a difference wind, light, motion, color, intensity, hue, focus, and a myriad other conditions and treatments can make on an image, be it photographic or computer-generated. We are the ones who vote responsibly. We are the ones who leave comments of substance. Those who don't may be in the group who likes to "stir things up" by creating glitches for the rest of us (consider the thousands of viruses that have been created for the sole purpose of creating havok). They may be in the group that just doesn't take this enterprise as serious as many of us. Or they may simply not understand the full reason behind this site and how to approach their part in it. I'm not being elitist when I say this, because, as I said, it's a simple matter of education and experience. I've been racking my brain for years to try to think of something would take all of these concerns into account, from all of these varied peoples from around the world, and successfully replace the c-index, but so far... nada. I'll keep thinking about it though. I'm sure we all will.

"One last thing. I find it unbelievable that the views and the downloads don't match. How can you comment on a photo if you don't view it full size. ...

I think it should be like the voting booth.You are not allowed to comment unless you view full size. You are not allowed to view unless you go full size. ...

/\ Good idea.

Mind you some might just open/close ... comment 'nicely' ... and go on their way.

Those that get your images in the voting booth, do have to view full-size in order to vote. Unlike those ... that comment. This is where the discrepancy in numbers is showing up.

The numbers don't add up, because some that are commenting are not viewing your work/images in full-size.


At least it might slow down the lazy voters that are on a mission to destroy the image."


/\ Bit of contradiction, Ron. See above.



Back to the original gist of this discussion thread, as I understand it.

Why does this happen?

Simple.

Time.

Too many members are attending to each and everyone of their friends and their respective posted images ... and in order to keep up ... do a drive-by comment job.

Or ... don't care. You choose which is more palatable.



Cornelius, you've edited your opening post.

Why?


Insofar as you constructively critiquing, 'frequently' ... or that of, receiving constructive critique, 'recently' ... care to provide some examples?

/\ I suspect that this will be looked upon/viewed as an attack on you by me ... but, it isn't.

I am trying to underscore some of my words above, those being ... 'you reap what you sow'. If 'you' comment nicely, 'you' get ... nice comments in return. And therein, lies the discrepancy between comments received and the assigned C-Index score.


I will concede to you, Cornelius, that some subject material does not meet with general approval once in the voting booth. And that technical considerations, proficiency, et al ... goes out the window once in the voting booth. For ... some.



Lyn?

"I no longer put my images in the VB - (although when I first joined I waited with bated breath to see the final score and was happy to achieve anything over 30.)"

It would appear that you have changed your mind on placing your images in the voting booth.

Why?

It has long been a pet peeve of mine, that people comment without viewing a picture in a larger size. It's like trying to judge the quality of a frozen dinner without putting it in the microwave. I think it would be a great idea to NOT be able to comment unless the picture is viewed larger. Of course, this would not be necessary if you are using a 62 inch monitor. LOL.

Another thought in regards to the full size viewing... People get in a hurry voting because they just wanna get their own stuff up. Perhaps a timer built in? One can click full size and close the pop-up before it's even loaded. Perhaps putting in a ten second timer forcing people to wait a bit before actually voting. Force the pop-up to be open for ten seconds before it can be closed to vote.
Just an idea.
My other thought which probably won't receive positive acclaim... Is that if one votes 4 or below, the voter should be redirected to the comments for that shot to EXPLAIN why such a low vote. If one is too lazy to take the time to actually LOOK at a piece of work (and work it is!) and give it a real vote, they shouldn't be allowed to massively hurt the score by voting 0 without at explanation.

Les, sometimes these members, like Cornelius, simply need to vent. We all do when we get poked by the same mattress spring too many times. We get out of bed (to the chagrin of our bed partner), swear a little under our breath, yank off the covers and flip the mattress over, crawl back in and try to get comfortable with that balled-up mess of sheets and blanket. A rant in itself is harmless. Cornelius is simply looking for an answer to that mattress spring, and since these threads often get off track with a variety of people making a variety of comments (mine included), it's understandable that his original train of thought might temporarily get skewed by the change in direction of the thread. I know it's hard for me to sometimes keep track of what everyone is saying and how it all originated. (I'm 56, so my brain is practically dead!) We all know the index is disappointing at times, surprising at others, but it really is a personal decision for each of us to include the voting feature on our submissions, or even to remove the ones we don't feel are doing well, have done their job, or we, the creators, are not happy with. Until a solution to the index is found, instead of wanting reasons for our individual actions, how about putting our noggins together to help Geri find that solution? The idea of making full-size viewing mandatory in order to comment has some merit. It won't guarantee the comments will be any more substantial than "Nice photo." but it might make a dent in them. Also, I agree with you completely that the influence of "time" is a critical element to this problem. I have 12 people on my own "friends list," and that keeps me behind in responding as it is, but I know people here who have upwards of three dozen or more in their list! I'm not sure a limit should be put on the number of friends you can have, that should be a personal decision, but it's likely contributing to not having enough time to commit to this endeavor. Like I said... noggins. Lot's of 'em. Like the one Laura just used. That timer idea is a good one to consider.

-Nik

For me, a relative newbie to photography... I must say that I have learned a lot from the C-index. Yes, I feel my scores have been unfair at times...on both high scores and low ones.

I think a certain type of picture (usually water with reflections) will be overrated (although I am well aware that there are stunning water-reflections pics out there...however, I posted one that was no great shakes and it fetched a too-high score, imho). Other types of pics that are good photographically, but are not "calendar art", will not get as high a C-index as it may deserve.

Part of the disappointing C-index is that size of the pic (too small) and/or suitability as a desktop (vertical orientation) will tend to fetch lower scores. And part of it is the hurry in the Voting Booth and/or the uneducated newbie (me).

All that said, I think this site is "too social" in the sense that people will refrain from making a negative public comment...and will do the "drive-by comment" (great term)...like "Nice". I feel the Friends Overload Factor myself and I will sometimes refrain from any comment or do a drive-by comment...mainly just to tell a friend "You Done Good", and not to supply a critque.

All in all, Caedes is a great site; I have gotten much outside-photography support from my friends here and I appreciate each and every one of them, personally and photographically! I have learned...mainly from my low scores...and I appreciate that as well.

C-Index? Not always on the mark. But when I first started voting in the Voting Booth, I know I gave out some bad scores (too high, too low) out of ignorance.

---Cornelius, you've edited your opening post.

Why?---

Please read my comment of 21/06/19:51 CET, Les, and I think you will find the proper answer.
Suppose, as you're able to tell me that I have edited my opening post, that you already exactly know as well what I have edited. If so, then you try to open an already open door, and I don't understand therefore why you've put forward this question. The truth is that I've edited/refined only some minor details, but no essential things at all, in order to prevent possible confusion due to the language barrier.
Suppose it's an attempt to distract us from the real subject matter and I really hope that it's not your intention to upset me or to bring me into disrepute, as this wouldn't be fair, Please try not to lay a 'smoke screen' around the essential discussion by putting forward other questions, but please pay attention to the real subject matter: the behaviour of some people in the VB resulting in by me described hyprocritic contradictions.

To save confusion as to who Nikoneer was talking about when he said Laura's idea, that's me.

Nikoneer's comment about people not having enough time to properly evaluate the images of their friends - I fully agree with you Nik - Today for me it was again one of those days when almost all my caedes friends decided to post two images instead of one and what is more, a "two image bug" seems to have spread quite a bit these days. Is that a virus? Hope not :)

Cornelius: The c-index an voting is what it is, 10 or so random people vote on your image and produce a number. If you don't like that process, then I recommend ignoring the c-index and voting system. It is not a perfect system by any means, and that is why I have continued to search for a way to highlight the "best" that we all can produce. I am hoping that the new Art Council will be able to serve that role. If it turns out to work well then we will likely get rid of the c-index or modify it to make it more useful (e.g. include anonymous critique along with the voting).

Most of you are probably too young to remember Patrick McGoohan's brilliant series, "The Prisoner." In it we have a secret agent held captive in a quaintly horrible prison village. He's told he's Number 6 but reliably shouts:

I AM NOT A NUMBER. I AM A FREE MAN.

Go and do likewise, substituting the more evolved ARTIST for the mere "man."

You are not a C-index. No image of yours is a C-index, either.

Just keep a close eye on that bothersome weather balloon following you around.... Be seeing you.

Cornelius, We would loose so much if you were to leave Caedes. I see that Caedes himself has posted something in this thread.

I too have really wondered about some of my scores. I might have an image that did poorly in the voting system, and then a few days later I see one that has a much higher score, but yet of the same quality. I aim to give an honest comment, and if there is something that I see could be improved - then i state it but in a nice and polite way. I for one aim to get better pics, and that comes from my learning experiences on caedes. I have to agree that if someone does not like flowers for an example that they just vote it low, without really taking the time to look at it. Fractal art is very good example of that, we have some very talented fractal artists on here, and I see their scores being way too low for what they have brought to us. The time and knowledge it takes to create such work, and then get slammed in the VB.It is a real shame. I hope you stay Mr. C. Your friend. Sandi

(*eyes number tattooed on his forehead in mirror ...*)

'Oh oh ... that "1/2" does not look good good, at all ...'

What's a C-index?? ...

You mean that number between 1 and 100....I myself never pay attention to that, if I like my picture I'll post it and if it will have a low c-index....well, I wont sleep a night less of that, cause I don't care about it, like Leslie (Pixleslie) said ignore it, it's just a number!

You have to look of how many people have download it and the comments/views, methinks that will say enough, at least more than the c-index.

You've said...

I suppose that (almost) every photographer has the ambition to have some images in the perms and from time to time on the Caedes front page.

There are pictures in the perm. gallery with a low c-index, because these two, the c-index and the perm. gallery, are standing apart from each other ..*have been reading that in another thread about the c-index*.. And beside of that, there are pictures in the perm. gallery that I think of.. 'K how is it possible, that something like this is in the perm. gallery!!!

To be featured on the front page I don't know if you have to have a high c-index, guess not?




My 2 cents of what's worth it :oD

Funny, I don't usually see people complain their C-Indexes are too high. It's generally other people's images that are too high. When the C-Index and comments disagree it must be the C-Index at fault.
Since the C-Index varies and the comments don't, there might just be some possibility that the C-Index is ever so slightly more accurate.

It's not an absolute number anyway. Of course some types of images are more popular than others, but within the various categories it should be more reliable. If there's a 20 point difference between two flower shots, chances are one really is better than the other.

You should create art that you actually like, but I think it's really dangerous artistically to decide you're going to trust only your own judgement and your friends and ignore outside opinions. There may be one artist in a million who's a genius and can get away with it, but you're probably not the one.

(Don't worry, Les, I gave you a 1. For a few of those baked goods I might even change it to 2.)

In answer to Les's question to me
"Lyn?
"I no longer put my images in the VB - (although when I first joined I waited with bated breath to see the final score and was happy to achieve anything over 30.)"

It would appear that you have changed your mind on placing your images in the voting booth.

Why?"
--------------------------------------------

Yes you are correct Les, I have. I changed my mind. Women are allowed to.
No particular reason, I guess I just got used to feeling pleased or aggrieved.

Long answer: Maybe to remind myself I dont care either way, that it is in effect, a random number which even though it may be 92 does not guarantee my image is considered perm material. Keeps me grounded, otherwise I may think my images are better than they are and that would never do would it :)
I am sure if the same image was presented to 6 different groups of 20 voters there would be a different result for each time so it is in a way a lottery - dependent on the personal likes and dislikes of each individual, what kind of mood they are in and whether they tend to vote high or low. Even in the unlikely event I produced a masterpiece or tuned into an Ansel Adams overnight there would still be those who would vote low(after all Ansel is not everyone's cup of tea) and that is their perogative.
Also I have a little bet with myself as to what the final c-i score will be. I would be bankrupt if I put money on it.

Short answer: Because I could

(while I still have my mind albeit sans a few marbles )

I am intrigued by this concept of "randomness." When I look at the "active members" list in "other stuff," I see a group of people who are always at the top of the list in voting on pictures. Sure, others vote too, but a large portion of you c-index is coming from people who may very well be on your friends list. It also means that if you have low scores, your friends are honestly voting, even if their comments are different.

After reading the many comments here, I just wanted to add a thought of my own. Years ago, when I began being a caedes member I was concerned about C-Index, oftentimes thinking my photos weren't as good as they could be when I would post a photo that I felt was one of the better ones, and would get a low low number, it was very discouraging.

And at one point I thought about leaving here, but then as I wrote to a dear friend of mine who was also a Mod, he gave me some very good advice. And it's stuck with me ever since then. He asked me what was important to me? Was it the number? or the amount of Views or the Downloads? or was it the friends I had here, or the people that helped me? or the comments they made? Well, I thought about that a lot.

And finally I came to the conclusion that the number didn't matter much to me. You see, there was a time, people would just vote LOW on purpose to keep certain people "down" and they would vote high so they could keep certain people "up." Most of us can kind of tell who posted a certain photo, everyone seems to have a "certain style" of their own to a degree.

Also, if we keep up with the new postings, we can see whose photo is whose. In any case, this dear friend of mine, who is still a very valued friend, told me to think on those questions. He helped me to realize the importance of what this site is. That of people coming thru and finding postings they like, the ones they would keep and display on their computer monitor, their desktop.

So for me to see my posting was viewed hundreds of times and downloaded even more, well,that was the good part! To know people actually liked my postings enough to keep them, that felt so good to me. So I realized the C-Index was never very important to me ever since then. I have noticed it, but it never impresses me, whether its up or down. I have seen postings on here that were amazing, IMHO, and yet they got a very small C-Index, and other times a posting would have many "flaws" obvious ones, and yet they got a high C-Index

I think it would be wonderful if Geri(MrCaedes) would find a way to make this all better in whatever way, he works so very hard in getting what we all need and appreciate. But in the meantime, I love the comments people make, the critique, the things I learn and value about my photography and all the wonderful suggestions, oh sure some of them might bother a person a bit, but so what? We keep learning. I have never seen a better wallpaper site then caedes. And the ones who don't just cruise thru, the members that stick around, well, they really are like family. They really do care. We can all be part of these discussions, that alone is so great.

And as far as corngrowth, wow, your postings are awesome, I know I care a lot about them and about you. Please, stick around, it is well worth it. Don't worry about that old C-Index anymore. Just know that those of us who truly care, we will say things that might help in some small way. What are scores anyway?! They can disappoint or encourage to a degree, but they are just a number.

And personally, I would rather a few well chosen words, some wonderful friends to enjoy then a number any day. It's a wonderful thing that we can all make choices, and that we know the friends that are here that we can count on. I say bravo on the comments, the views, the downloads! I guess I'm my own cheering committee, but I love it here, and Mr C? you are very cared about that's for sure. Just pretend that score isn't there, and go for all the good stuff!! Verena

I've read as much of this thread as I could, and I wish to throw my opinion into the hat. I know I'm not the most active member and that I don't vote or comment on as many images as most of the members talking on this thread. However, on the images I do vote on I find myself being stricter when giving out scores of 8-10. I feel that scores of 80 or higher should be given, in theory, to the best images this site has to offer. I find myself giving out more 7s than 8s, and reserve the 8-10 scores on the images that I think really deserve it. The problem is some people will give out high scores if they like the content of the picture rather than the quality of it. I’ve noticed it on my own posts; if it is cute some one will give it a 10. Since you can’t control how people vote, I try not to let it bother me when I see one of my images that receive a high score at first drop as it receives more votes. Though I will admit that I believe most of the C-Index scores on my images have been very fair. The low C-Index scores on my posts have motivated me to improve my game. That motivation and some really good advice from a few members have really helped me become a much better photographer. Since then I have posted three pictures that broke past C-index score of 80, with a good amount more in the 70s. Seeing how other people take pictures has also given me some great ideas.
I personally have trouble critiquing other people's work because I am not confident in my own knowledge. I don’t like going from post to post saying this is good over and over again. That and I don't believe telling members that their picture is bad or is just a snapshot is the point of this website. So I tend to not comment on images that I dislike or believe is a snapshot, or Ill try to leave a comment about something I like about the picture. Its allot easier to find something good about a picture and it is to point out what is wrong with it, and some people don't always want to hear your critiques. I don't know who said it, but I agree that it should be mandatory to open the image in full-size before you can comment on an image. That’s the one thing that drives my crazy. I see allot of pictures, including my own, that look either good or bad in the thumbnail until you open them in full-size see the real picture.

If you choose to opt in to the voting system, you just have to accept that you will not always agree with the score you receive. End of story...

I just wanted to say that what Verena wrote made so much sense, and I like that she shared it with us. Said so well-thank you V. It is about the friends, the learning, and the amount of downloads. Thanks for bringing it all together for me. =^..^= s♥andi♥

Here here to Verena's comment.

Cornielius: I've found +/- 50 of your images into the perms.
Is it a best answer?

I was offended/insulted by one of the above given comments, in such a way that I decided, in order to prevent further escalation, to quit with this discussion. Because I like to play 'fair play', I've informed the person who it concerns by a PM why I have this meaning.
Therefore I won't reply to Pierre's above given comment here as well. I'll provide Pierre with detailed information by PM, as soon as I have the time to do so.

If we were not notified of friends images until after they had received 10 votes (or immediately if they were not entered into the voting booth) it might reduce the friends effect and stop a lot of these incidents. Not a perfect solution but it might help.

Although, as was stated earlier, some of the artists and photographers on this site have characteristic images that can easily be identified as theirs. Many times in the voting booth, an image will come up and I'll know exactly who submitted it. Knowing whose it is, however, never tilts my vote one way or another. I vote on the merits of the image.

Yes, true. But not everybody has such a characteristic images, and not everyone can spot them and so it would help. Not perfect, but perhaps a little improvement on what we have. Small tweaks to the voting system will evolve a system that works. Not doing anything because it is not the final solution is just an excuse to do nothing. Also, as any psychologist will tell you, the fact you know has influenced you, even if it makes you consciously act as if it hasn't, which you can't.

Most psychologists I've known, in college and elsewhere, consider themselves the next or reincarnation of Freud. I find much more success in following my gut. It's a matter of self-control, putting little credence in that influence scenario you mentioned. And I'm not suggesting we do nothing; I'm just not convinced this is a tweak that wouldt work, unless you're suggesting the I.D. of the image is hidden while we're voting on it, then that I do agree with. The first time I voted in the Council I thought it odd that all the posting information was included. Again, I never let it influence my vote, but I could see where it would for some people. But beyond all this, if the image is not a new image but was nominated from an individual's gallery, all that member's friends would likely have seen the image previously, and would remember it as their friend's submission. That's happened to me a number of times already, seeing an older image of a friend. As in the voting booth, we should only see the image.

Nikoneer. I am sure you are as subjective as possible. As I try to be. And maybe you are right, it is just that I am not sure everyone does, and for the VB every little helps. As I said, it is not the whole answer, but may be a part of the answer.

For the Art Council I do not think it is practical to see just the image as in the voting booth. When deciding if an image is to be permed you need to see the image enlarged as much as possible to check its quality, certainly larger than 1024x1024 as in the VB. I agree that my suggestion would not work for the Art council.

Oh, I agree on the issue of enlargement; we should be able to see it large just as we do in the VB (it's a requirement in order to vote). I just don't think it's necessary and could even be a distraction and inhibitor for some members to see the title, artist name, and post data associated with it. If the image is good enough for the permanent galleries, it should have the strength to stand on it's own.

I will state once more for the record, there needs to be a voting criteria established, a point system of some sort in order for an index rating to be truly fair. There are some issues of art that are just plain subjective and always will be no matter what - such as bulls-eye, mid-line horizon, and the old hard & fast art and photography rules such as lighting techniques, the rule of thirds and color use. In art, all rules are allowed to be broken without penalty if done in such a way that truly enhances the overall effect of the work.

I have sumbitted suggestions for a point system several times without response. We could collectively come up with a set of criteria (10 or 12 points or whatever) and blast the Caedes-man with our requests ad nauseum or you can share your thoughts with me and I will submit them to my husband who is working on setting up a photosharing website for me that will allow us to share our works with a fair and equitable critique system as well as an organized, more realistic voting system. My request to Caedes, which perhaps was misunderstood because of my failure to communitcate well, would be a button select system in the voting booth, each button attached to a statement and points following - along the lines of my signature statement, the way I judge images when I'm in the voting booth (you'll see it at the end of this message.) Using a set of buttons that would be selected only if the image met that criteria would help to eliminate some of the subjectivity and favoritism issues you're all aware of. Examples of points to consider might be:

( ) Gut response - is there a "wow" factor?

( ) Is the image sharp?

( ) Is the color natural or if saturated or desaturated does it artistically enhance the image?

( ) Is the image straight or skewed in a way that adds artistic value?

( ) Is the horizon line well placed?

( ) Is the depth of field correct to best enhance this subject?

( ) Is the subject clear and the image free of clutter and distractions?

( ) Is the exposure correct for the image?

( ) Is there an inherent message or does the subject and presentation move you?

( ) Is there a leading path in the image (is your eye drawn from one area to the next landing on the main subject in a natural pattern?)

( ) Is the image well framed/composed?

( ) Is the image clean (free of lens dust, distracting dirt on the main subject, without mergers?)

( ) If this image is documentary in nature, does it convey that without question, is it interesting, does it leave you wanting more, does it answer questions or cause you to ask questions? In other words, is it interactive, because the whole idea of a documentary or journalistic image is to stir interest and make your viewer want more.)

Just a few items that might be considered.

Along with the points to be selected, it would be helpful if the amateur who has never had a critique class were shown examples of the points, such as how a good piece will lead the eye through the land of your photograph or artwork or captivate your soul.

It would also mean setting up separate voting pages for art and photography because some of the critiquing rules of photography might not apply to fractals and other cg artwork or scanned traditional art pieces. There should also be a "class" on critiquing require for all who want to upload, participate and vote. This would be nothing more than a page of information about what constitutes good art and how to make a fair and helpful critique that is constructive and never destructive. In order to move on, the person would have to check a button the way you do when you agree to terms and conditions when signing up for something (and hopefully you're wise enough to read the fine print before diving in =D.)

I will go back now to what I've always said about Caedes - it is a site for amateurs and voyeurs, whose main attraction is to find pretty pictures to use for desktop backgrounds. This site, to date, has not mainly been a place for professional or amateurs seriously interested in improving their photography (especially considering the cg and elementary artwork posted here as well.)

What you will all find if you want to have your work seriously viewed and critiqued by "real" photographers, is a greater expense and a class of artists who will critique your work in a way that may make you feel like a bug that just got stepped on left with enough breath to wish you were dead. You may be truly humiliated by far more than a low c index. Suck it up gang. You can't have it all. Or can you?

Steve and I are working on getting another website up and running but I'm sorry to say it's going to take some time - perhaps a year even - before he will have it done. First, we're foster parents. Our life is our kids and Steve's server building work is done in his very limited free time after working all day and dealing with needy kids all evening. However, in the meantime, I would love your suggestions on what you would want to see on a new photo sharing site. Let it be built according to your needs and desires.

Having said that, we can ask Caedes for what we want but have to keep in mind there are a lot of happy little Caedians here who are fine with things just the way they are and Caedes has to weigh out whether making major changes to this site is really worth if for the few of us who are dissatisfied. I respect that and I'm sure your do too.

Whew, didn't plan this in my schedule tonight but I've been hearing my dear brother Nik on this subject for too long and felt I needed to chime in. Bri, bet you'll never ask my opinion again =D!

Looking forward to hearing whose next on this topic. Meantime Caedos, get out there and shoot something! Cheerio, anne =D

Huzzah, Annie!

Perhaps we all need to remind ourselves what appears on the front page

"Welcome to Caedes, the Desktop Wallpaper and Artist Community.
Caedes is a close community of artists, designers, and photographers who share their work through the medium of computer desktop wallpaper"

Key words - close - community - share - desktop wallpaper.

No mention of contest, professional advice, or come and be stepped on like a bug by a 'real' photographer :)

There is a myriad of sites devoted to art, photography and design, enough to suit all levels of expertise and requirements. Caedes has withstood the test of time by catering to the needs of all levels of talent, and letting amateurs, professionals, raw beginners, and visitors, feel welcome.

Perhaps the most important word is - "community".
Not the other 'c' word.

:) LE

Have a suggestion for you, Annie ... something I employ from time to time.

One word ... 'dartboard'.


I am sure it wouldn't be that hard to come up with something that is Flash-based.

Click on it, open it up ... give your mouse a twist and a spin ... et voila! Instant scoring!


:oP

Mhmm ... I see that Lyn has taken some time out from her 'framing lobbying' efforts ...


:oP

... ...

Oh, come on ... it's a joke, it's a ... joke. :o)

'Share', indeed you are correct Lyn.

And that is what Annie did in her post above ... 'share' her thoughts on a public discussion that was initiated.

Les, I do not understand your last comment - of course it is public otherwise I would not have been able to post anything. I was 'sharing' my thoughts as everyone in this thread has. If your think my thoughts are rubbish thats ok with me. If you take offence at them then that is also ok because no offence was intended against anyone.



Joke or not, I am NOT a framing lobbyist and I dont see what my opinion on that subject has to do with this one.

I stand by what I said - 'community' is more important than the C-index.

Over and out.

The first word in a description or even as a listed ingredient is the most important or the main one...in Lyn's comment, she has nailed it with "a close community".

To me that describes what this site owner envisioned and has indeed accomplished. :=)

Some other words also found on the site for all to read/digest:


How to Give a good review. - Hopefully this will give you a good idea of what the caedes.net staff considers to be a good review. It also highlight characteristics that we look for when selecting new staff members.




Giving an Image Review

The comment area below the caedes.net images is for reviewing the author's image. Much like a review of a restaurant or movie, you are expected to give a balanced reaction to the work. This reaction should be mature, polite, and backed up by details, proof, or examples. The purpose of the review should be to help the author advance in skill by offering your own knowledge and/or talent.

* Do include one or more point that you particularly like about the image.
* Do include one or more points that you don't like.
* Do offer advice on how the image could be improved or how the author's skills could be improved.
* Don't be afraid of hurting someone's feelings. As long as your review is mature and polite most people will love your attention.
* Don't simply state "It's awesome" or "It sucks," such statements without elaboration are useless and waste space on the site. What's awesome to a 3 year old could be awful anyone else. You have to prove that your perspective is worth considering. The best way to do this is to back up your opinions with insightful suggestions for improvement.
* Don't conduct private conversations between someone other than the author of the image. Use the Personal Message service or offtopic discussion forum instead.

Art is, and should be, subjective, and not constrained by a set of rules, which would only have to be broken to make an image stand out. Most great art breaks rules. Surrealists, cubists, modernists etc all broke the rules laid down by their peers, and I don't think Van Gogh ever got a horizon straight. This works in photography as well. No, people should vote on what they like, even if that does favour a conservative opinion.

Hopefully, with the art council in place we can get rid of the CI system and the Voting Booth. We hear time and again that it is not a means of determining quality, and therefore cannot be used as such. It therefore has no meaning and no function. It is also the greatest source of problems on this site, judging from this and other threads.

I will go back now to what I've always said about Caedes - it is a site for amateurs and voyeurs, whose main attraction is to find pretty pictures to use for desktop backgrounds. This site, to date, has not mainly been a place for professional or amateurs seriously interested in improving their photography (especially considering the cg and elementary artwork posted here as well.)

What you will all find if you want to have your work seriously viewed and critiqued by "real" photographers, is a greater expense and a class of artists who will critique your work in a way that may make you feel like a bug that just got stepped on left with enough breath to wish you were dead. You may be truly humiliated by far more than a low c index. Suck it up gang. You can't have it all. Or can you?

Having said that, we can ask Caedes for what we want but have to keep in mind there are a lot of happy little Caedians here who are fine with things just the way they are and Caedes has to weigh out whether making major changes to this site is really worth if for the few of us who are dissatisfied. I respect that and I'm sure your do too.

I take offence to those comments..

#1 I for one am NOT an amateur or voyeur thankyou very much, I have been doing art of all kinds for years and have won awards (not on the net) for my work mainly Fractals and traditional as well as a couple for some photography.. (which btw Fractals I learned on here)

I also know for a fact that we have many members in our photography section who are very experienced photographers and pass on their expert advice and techniques..

I don't know who you've been talking to on here but I know that a lot of members here have improved in all aspects of artwork and most are serious in improving, yes there are those who couldn't careless because they have a chip on their shoulders and think that there work is perfect and can't be improved (art is never perfect and everyone can improve regardless of how long the artist has been working at it).. to those I say maybe this isn't the site for you.

It seems to me that your not happy here in the land of Caedes and just hanging around until you get your own site up and running.

This is a COMMUNITY site not a professional site, it's a place where beginners learn, amateurs improve and professionals use there experience to help others, a place to where there is no pressure, a place to relax and share what we all love to do.. CREATE.. after all beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

*I'll go back into my cave now.. lol

Seems to me that somewhere along the way, the term 'wallpaper site' somehow changed, in the perception of the type of imagery posted, and/or the skill level or effort level of the posting members.

A wallpaper site, by it's very name, should be a place where the best imagery, or at least very pleasing imagery, is placed on display for others to enjoy.

There's nothing wrong with having a place to share your work, meet with friends, and for beginners to undergo some growth process. But then why not stop calling this a wallpaper site?

Or, why not stop saying, or implying, that this is "just" a wallpaper site? It shouldn't be synonymous with words like mediocre, average, etc.

I agree, Philo, Caedes is much more than "just a wallpaper site." Each time a new member joins, they bring their own personal flavor to the site and thereby changes it a little bit. All one has to do is look at that number of members in the left column to see how much it has changed. I know Anne's comments may have stung a few of you but perhaps she did it to get your attention (which it appears she certainly did), so you would read her entire message. Her list of buttons to determine the validity of an image as a permed image is her way of sharing her expertise and experience with us. I have a sister who will take something I've said, pick it apart to find one line she deems unacceptable, and, using it completely out of context, will pound me upside the head with it, completely ignoring the full impact of what I had said. It gets tiring, and it appears to me that that is what has happened to Anne's comment. I've kept up with this thread and have seen many of you pound away at this issue, with only a few suggesting actual steps that could be taken to make the system work better, and they have been good ideas. But most have just said the same thing over and over again, pounding this dead horse until it's too late for equine burgers, but just right for horse paté. Anne's button list is the real meat of her comment. Why not give that portion of her comment another look? There's some good ideas in there.

Um, Nik... I was actually supporting her statements.

 In all actuality, people should post their work elsewhere, and experience some critiques of their work sans coddling. Abrasive yes. But it might open some eyes and restart the learning process.

Yeah, I know, Philo. My first two words were "I agree." The rest of my comment was for the Philistines visiting the thread. :D Those folks who have gotten my comments on their images know I'm one who says what I think and, to the chagrin of a couple, get rather wordy about it. Because of that, I often get members asking for advice on Photoshop, time of day to shoot, how to fix certain problems, and choice of equipment, etc. Last week, a young fellow from India asked me for recommendations for purchasing a DSLR and I gave him a long PM, loaded with links for a camera and other gear, my reasons why, and tips on their use. He was very appreciative and for me it validates why I'm associated with this site. If more of us gave honest and well-thought out and constructive comments, written in a manner that was helpful rather than insulting (and frankly, some of them are for the thinner-skinned members), I think things would go a lot smoother and it would help the novices grow to be experienced.

Wow its so amazing to read all of this! I have leaned tons posting my work and looking at other peoples work. I have seen comments that are down right terrible and I for one choose not to ever become like this. You can critique and be positive! I do this with my kids every day and it works pretty good. There is no reason to be "Abrasive" to restart a learning process. To be honest a person coming in who is a "real Photographer" and blasting an image I posted is not worth my time.I have seen some members really hurt by this.I can learn fine without it. Any good teacher will tell you that people learn the best when its done in a positive manner.
As far as the C index is concerned, I had an image come in at 97 and thought it was too good to be true! Well it was! This image went from a 97 with 12 votes, all the way down to a 77 after 15 votes??? I started to think seriously that there was something screwy with this C index. How could there be such a dramatic drop? What I think happens is that people really rush through the VB to get there image posted other than taking their time and really giving it a good look. I very rarely vote below a 5 unless it is solid tripe!!
Anyway my two cents! Spend it on what you want.

You hit the nail on the head, Paul.

Seems to me that the real value of posting an image you've made on a website is that it helps you learn to step back and take a fresh look at what you've done.

It can even influence how you approach making new images because you begin to anticipate others looking at them and push yourself to do more than routinely record a scene for yourself.

High CI scores, pleasing comments, contest wins - nice, I guess, but how can any of that stack up again a great idea for a new image unlike any you've tried to make before?

Ohhh... I like your way of thinking, Thierry! Thank you for that! :) It has definitely happened to me on more than one occasion... I just never gave it that much thought. Probably because of that hoovering cloud (c-index)...lol

Just a suggestion.. This thread is getting LONG and it's taking a while to find the bottom of the page now to see what's new. Can we have pages please?

My suggestion is...stop this thread, the c-index is here, wether it is a high one or a low one you have to live with it and if you can't, just stop with putting it in the voting system and your done with it!! This is thread number 3 or 4 about a low c-index and methinks we will never get stop talking about it.

And if we are honest in our comments and in the voting boot than there would be no problem, because the c-index would be equal to the comments.

Just a thought here :o)

:o)

Agree... I think everything there is to say about the c-index has been said, several times...

Good discussion though...

When it was a discussion. I don't normally read these threads, not being a blogger, twitterer, or enamored in any way with that sort of dialog (I still like to use the telephone), but between this thread and the Art Council thread, I have to say that I can respect the varied ideas of the membership for site improvement (ultimately Geri's decision), but also disappointed in how certain egos here can't seem to remain professional, or at least respectful, allowing the thread to mutate into a game of "King of the Hill" or who really is the chocolate pudding sheriff of the house. It's juvenile and beneath us. Els hit it on the head when she suggested being honest in our comments and in the VB. We should treat all our dealings here in the same manner. And yes, it's time to end the thread. It's all been said, over and over, with no real resolution in sight.

The C-index subject could be discussed for ever, indeed sometimes it feels as though it has been, and it is unlikely a consensus of opinion will or could ever be reached.

Just my respectful humble opinion . . . . . . . . . . .
Discussions such as this allow members to say what is on their minds - and will inevitably lead to differences of opinion. Labelling those opinions as unprofessional and ego boosting does nothing to stimulate sensible exchange of ideas.


:) LE

Apparently we haven't been reading the same comments.

Nikoneer, I have read all comments in their entirety.
And I re-read them all before my last post.
Perhaps we just have a different interpretation.
I do not see any evidence of "smug and ignorant and indifferent or hostile to artistic and cultural values' which is the definition of the Philistines you refered in one of your posts. I just see people having their say.

You suggested we may go back and give some more considerations to Anne's post, so I will do that now.
I appreciate the time and thought that went into the post, and I think the items to be considered for the buttons idea are excellent ones, and are already followed by many, myself included. I believe many rush through the Voting Booth and others spend time. Often I also place the image being voted on on my desktop as a final test, just as I do with each and every image I upload myself. I posted in the past (a long time in the past) how I allocate my scores in the voting booth HERE and essentially that has not changed, although I have become more discerning. It is interesting to read the responses.
My only criticism is that I, and I believe others may find it time consuming to have to click 13 buttons for each image voted on and the number of votes being made would drop dramatically. Those who already rush through the voting booth would also rush through the button pushing with little regard.

Moving on from there to comments about real photographers viewing and critiquing our work. I have never experienced any humiliation or wished myself dead as a result of such critiquing, either on this site or from a group of 'real' phtotographers I have regular contact with. By 'real' in this instance I mean established photograpers who make their living or part of it by their work. They have never hesitated to point out flaws, often with no mercy, but balance that by suggesting ways to improve. The only hurtful criticism I have had from any of that group has been by being questioned about why I 'waste my time and talents' with a wallpaper site. And to that I have replied MOST vehemently that this is where I learned a great deal over the years, by help generously given and by example. This is where my passion for photography as a hobby (nothing more and never will be)was born and nurtured.

I guess I am one of the happy little Caedians here, but would qualify that by saying I am not averse to change and never have been, I welcome it.
I have seen the site change in many ways since 2006 - that is growth.

:) LE

"I have seen the site change in many ways since 2006 - that is growth. "

Unfortunately, the one thing this site has not done is grow. It has shrunk dramatically over the past few years. Less images are posted every day, many good artists have left, and visitors (including guests) which were well over 10,000 every day, had reduced to under 5,000 before that particular statistic was dropped.

Perhaps not every change has been for the best for the site, even if its members are happy.

Direct quote and words by Nikoneer, on the note of "Philistines":

"Yeah, I know, Philo. My first two words were "I agree." The rest of my comment was for the Philistines visiting the thread. :D"

He..was..kidding.

It..was..an..attempt..at..humour. A..light-hearted..moment.


To characterize his words/posts to this thread with that preamble of yours, Lyn ... is licentious.


"Nikoneer, I have read all comments in their entirety."

Don't think so.


Slow down, geez ... this is not a win-lose proposition here.

I have a solution..THUNDER DOME!

Two Artists enter one artist Leaves.

LICENTIOUS ???
You call me a liar and lacking in moral dicipline in one post.
Whether you 'think so' or not I have read all the posts in their entirety, including yours directed at me which I find insulting.You have successfully 'moderated' me out of this discussion which I believe was your intention. No, it is not a win lose proposition and I do not see it as such but it seems you do.
"I do not see any evidence of . . . . etc" was also light hearted
I surrender - you win.
I shall not waste any more of your time - or mine by 'sharing' my thoughts and worthless 'preambles'.

So.....can we finally close this discussion??


It's good that we share our thoughts here, but it's getting out of hand, Folks, with all the miss understandings and so on!!

What's with you guys..and girls of course..., about the c-index, to get so upset about it!!


Like Sam said.....I think everything there is to say about the c-index has been said, several times...

:oD

I agree with ::twinkel.

So let us summarize:

Does the C-Index effect placement of images in the perms?
No.
Does the C-Index indicate the artistic value of an image?
No.
Does the C-Index mater?
No.

What is the C-Index?
The C-Index is only a general indication of the general voting populations general interest in the image as a desktop wallpaper at the time of voting. It is not a score card, it is a generalization (or weighted average) of opinions of people you probably do not know. Many of whom simply do not care.

Do the best images get the highest votes?
Not always.

Do the worst images get the lowest votes?
Not always.

Should I invest my self worth in my C-Index score?
Absolutely NOT!

Why do we have the C-Index?
To give the artist a "generalized" indication of the "success" of an image. Not its artistic merit or technical quality. (This may not have been the intended purpose, but it is what it is.)

Why does the C-Index change drastically from day to day?
Voting continues and the numbers add up ( or down ). Ignore the C-Index until you have at least (12?) or more votes. It is very unstable until then.

Also remember
The C-Index is Not a score card, it is a generalization of opinions of people you probably do not know. Many of whom simply may not care about your image or you. Further, they may find your culture, religion, or subject matter offensive or repulsive.
Ouch! An unpleasant thought but a true reality in an international community like this one.

I have had a photo placed in the perms that I had exempted from voting and thus had a zero C-Index on. This image was subsequently removed from the perms during spring cleaning. I was surprised when it was promoted but not so much when it was archived.

This confirms three facts about Caedes.
1. The C-Index does not effect placement of images in the perms.
>(Edit:
>1. The C-index is not the only deciding factor for placement of images >in the perms.) Per =ppigeon
2. The perms are in fact a showcase for the best of the best and that images placed there are not necessarily permanently permanent.
3. The mods are human. Subject to changing opinions and attitudes as individuals and as a group, just like the rest of us.

"1. The C-Index does not effect placement of images in the perms".
Sorry, but I don't agree. The permed images have often a good c-index.