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Discussion Board -> Non-art Website Issues -> Why the AC is difficult.

Why the AC is difficult.

::jeenie11
02/17/11 4:31 AM GMT
I now have the privilege of voting images as an Art Council member. I am very happy to have this privilege. There are several reasons why this honor is also a difficult situation. Let's assume (this did happen) that a certain image is presented to me. It's one that I think is excellent. So I go to the permanent gallery and see 3 that are just like it. It's hard to say yes, include it (because I think it's good) or no, don't include it (because it's redundant). I'd love to hear what you have to say about this. If you look at photography (perms) and organize the images by date, you will see the redundancy of some images. Is this a problem?
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+mimi
02/17/11 4:50 AM GMT
Yes Jen, redundancy is a problem in the Main Gallery.

That is why images can and will be removed from the Main Gallery if an image of better quality, higher clarity is voted in by the Art council.

Thank you for looking at the galleries before voting.

It is very important (as you now know!)
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~mimi~
::jeenie11
02/17/11 4:53 AM GMT
My problem is that I hate to "nuke" the new one (which may be better) in favor of one that is already in the Main Gallery (which may be far less good).....a predicament for sure!
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AVATAR BY PJ............... i've been so bad about commenting on your photos. believe me when i say i look at them all. feel free to NOT comment on mine. Please Visit My Gallery
+mimi
02/17/11 5:10 AM GMT
Well Jen, you can always PM a mod with the image(s) in question if you are truly stumped or feel the other image is better.

Hope this helps!
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~mimi~
=Samatar
02/17/11 5:24 AM GMT
Maybe we should give the AC a way to remove inferior images from the mains? Could be pretty much the same process for promoting.

If the image you are voting on is better than other examples in the mains then for me that makes actually makes the decision to promote it easier. I would only consider other examples in the same genre a problem if the were on par with the one you were voting on.
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
::jeenie11
02/17/11 5:36 AM GMT
I have a bit of a new idea. When we feel we'd like to explain the "no" vote, I'd like to have a place to state a reason why I felt i couldn't vote yes. It would not be for every shot submitted just for those we'd like to say something about. That way we could bring up this redundancy. Would that be offensive?
Sam, I agree with you except you could end up with a ton of shots that look too much alike.
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AVATAR BY PJ............... i've been so bad about commenting on your photos. believe me when i say i look at them all. feel free to NOT comment on mine. Please Visit My Gallery
::laurengary
02/17/11 4:56 PM GMT
A.) No, no, no, are you kidding, this is the ugliest shot on the face of the earth.

Or

B.) You recognize the personal style of an artist which is quite distinctive, & you don't want to flood the gallery with those pieces.

I admit I being factious with reason A, but reason B is a very real concern for me. I guess this kind of goes with what Jen is saying.
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.Tootles
02/17/11 5:35 PM GMT
I understand everyone's concerns in this matter. Myself, I believe it would make for a higher-quality gallery (in the long run) if the AC voted 'yes' to everything that they felt was good enough, and left it up to the mods to choose which of similar pieces would be the best representative. I think it gets a little overcomplex if we are voting 'no' to things we think are good enough but 'there are already too many'... there is too much potential in that case to let the better pictures slip through the cracks.

It won't help us if the poorer versions are later axed anyway, and a better one has never succeeded.

I don't know if I'm right, but I was left with the impression that once an image has been nominated to the AC and then refused, the 'nominate' button is removed and it cannot be nominated again at a later stage.

I would prefer to err on the side of choice (to be sifted through at leisure) rather than immediate restriction. :-)

I wonder if there's a case for an intermediate gallery... where lookalikes can be considered by mods before they are finally accepted into the main galleries?
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::jeenie11
02/17/11 6:07 PM GMT
I totally agree with you. When you're faced with the yes,no,abstain buttons you feel a definite responsibllty to do the right thing.
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AVATAR BY PJ............... i've been so bad about commenting on your photos. believe me when i say i look at them all. feel free to NOT comment on mine. Please Visit My Gallery
::LynEve
02/17/11 10:10 PM GMT
I absolutely agree. I have just received an image to vote on which is similar to another by the same artist already promoted. I think it is a better example but as it is so similar should I be voting no?
Up until now I have voted yes on any nominations I personally think are suitable for promotion and rely on the image mods to make the final decision.
Wouldn't it become a little complicated having a separate section for suggestions for demotion? Far simpler if the mods make those decisions - and more consistent.
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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust . . . . The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." ~ Joseph Joubert (1754-1824)
::jeenie11
02/17/11 10:16 PM GMT
Maybe we could "store" the images we like but are very similar in a place where the mods could do the culling and adding. I have found that there are series' or duplicates of so many shots that have just been left there. A little communication of some sort between the AC and the mods would be a good idea.
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AVATAR BY PJ............... i've been so bad about commenting on your photos. believe me when i say i look at them all. feel free to NOT comment on mine. Please Visit My Gallery
=Samatar
02/17/11 10:26 PM GMT
Geri has recently indicated quite clearly to me that he wants the AC to be responsible for making the decisions regarding promotion and for the mods to interfere with the process as little as possible.
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
::jeenie11
02/17/11 10:31 PM GMT
LynEve commented: Up until now I have voted yes on any nominations I personally think are suitable for promotion and RELY ON THE IMAGE MODS TO MAKE THE FINAL DECISION.
Sam in your comment just above this one are you saying this is not the way it is? Are the image mods not making the final decisions?
Are the image mods removing old images when new better ones appear. Do the image mods remove photos that are voted in by the AC?
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AVATAR BY PJ............... i've been so bad about commenting on your photos. believe me when i say i look at them all. feel free to NOT comment on mine. Please Visit My Gallery
::LynEve
02/17/11 10:32 PM GMT
Delaying the promotion to Mains and notifying the artist until after the image mods have considered approved nominations would be good.
I do not know what access the mods have to the "main' galleries of individual members but it they were able to see them grouped that way it would be a lot quicker & easier than individual voters trolling through the artists gallery to find out what they already had promoted. Also this is not possible once our allocated nominations have been used because the AC button is not visible any more in that arists gallery.
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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust . . . . The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." ~ Joseph Joubert (1754-1824)
::LynEve
02/17/11 10:48 PM GMT
:) In view of minimal intervention expected from mods I would imagine that there will continue to be instances of similar images being promoted :)

In that case would there be any possibility of voters being able to view other galleries with already promoted images grouped together to help in making the voting decision?
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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust . . . . The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." ~ Joseph Joubert (1754-1824)
=Samatar
02/17/11 10:51 PM GMT
Jeenie: One or two of the mods have been "editing" the AC selections by removing some of them after a period in the mains, however my understanding is that Geri wants to discourage this sort of thing in the future. I believe he wants the C to be an "independent body" that can function without manipulation by mods. The recent changes highlighted on the front page would, I assume, be aimed at improving this independent functionality.

Lyn: Generally, we have always had to rely on memory when it comes to trying to avoid duplicates in the main galleries. I think after a while you will begin to see nominated images and recall others that you have already voted on that were similar in the past. Although of course we can still continue serve this function, personally I think some ability to be able to remove inferior images from the mains needs to be addressed if the AC is to have responsibility for maintaining the main galleries as this is the way the mods would have done it in the past (ie if I had an excellent image of an eagle that I wanted to promote and there were already several good examples in the mains of a similar scene, I might opt to remove one or two examples that I no longer considered up to par).
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
::trixxie17
02/17/11 10:51 PM GMT
I believe it would behoove AC members not to jump so quickly on the nominate button - frquently an artist is posting a series of images from one location or event and if the first one is so quickly nominated and accepted a better one may be left behind. If we waited a bit we also may not get so much redundancy as we now see in the main galleries..
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. . . "What a desolate place would be a world without a flower! It would be a face without a smile, a feast without a welcome." A.J. Balfour
::jeenie11
02/17/11 10:58 PM GMT
Actually, I'm not even talking about the nominate button. When we get a picture in our AC file we're just asked to vote yes, no or abstain. So, this is about images that have been nominated by someone else. Speaking of "quick on the nominate button" members are nominating images the same day they first appear in new images.
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AVATAR BY PJ............... i've been so bad about commenting on your photos. believe me when i say i look at them all. feel free to NOT comment on mine. Please Visit My Gallery
::LynEve
02/17/11 11:25 PM GMT
Sam - yes that does happen - even with my limited memory :) It just becomes confusing - ok I see an image I would normally vote 'yes' on in the AC - then I think 'Hang on, I remember one just like this" and I go an have a look at the gallery - search for the image I 'think' I remember. Find it. Nomination button gone - must have been nominated - go search in main galleries - oops has not got there yet - is it still waiting? Has it been rejected? I dont know. Is the new one better (in my eyes) than the previous one? If I vote no could that tip the scales and it never gets promoted - and perhaps the previous one did not either - two good images missed out.

I have just looked through the first several pages of Main Galleries - there appears to be a good variety there - is this duplication thing a major problem?
Can it not just be addressed by the mods ? A good image is a good image regardless of whether there are 10 other similar good images and regardless of whether it is nominated 1 minute after upload or one month later but I agree - a bit of restraint in delaying nominations would help but I think often an image is seen in the general VB and people rush in and nominate - and again if we all wait until a series is completed - chances are each nominator would choose a different image and nominate it so we still end up with several similar ones -

Now I am confusing myself . . . .

Can we not just continue as is and rely on the mods to do some necessary pruning IF required? If it is worthy of the Main galleries - vote yes, if not vote no. If you are totally confused and bewildered and can not decide - abstain and go and make youself a cup of tea instead.

I am off to make a cup of tea . . . . .
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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust . . . . The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." ~ Joseph Joubert (1754-1824)
::LynEve
02/18/11 2:34 AM GMT
Scenario:

Sam adopts a one eyed wombat.
Over the next six days he posts six photos of said wombat - same animal, different poses.
All National Geographic Standard.
All popular, faved 100's of times.
All gain VB scores of at least 90.
All nominated, all AC accepted and promoted.

Animal gallery flooded with one eyed wombat photos.
Visitors believe they have strayed into the Weird Wonderful World of One Eyed Wombats.
They wonder "where are the wallabies and walruses?"

Image Mod notices the over representation of oew's.
Contacts Sam by pm
"Hey Sam, your cute and cuddly oew's are wonderful but we need only one in the Main Galleries.
Which one would you prefer to have represent your amazing work with this wondrous creature ?"
Sam replies " Number five will be fine, thanks"

Other instances removed.

End of story.

Until next week when Sam adopts a two legged turquoise turtle . . . . .

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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust . . . . The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." ~ Joseph Joubert (1754-1824)
::jeenie11
02/18/11 3:05 AM GMT
Perfect idea. Waddaya think, Sam?
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AVATAR BY PJ............... i've been so bad about commenting on your photos. believe me when i say i look at them all. feel free to NOT comment on mine. Please Visit My Gallery
.Nikoneer
02/18/11 3:45 AM GMT
I can't really comment. I'm still laughing too much over Lyn's last two comments. 8oD :^> :D
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If you've ever wanted to make a difference but found it hard to believe that one person could... check out the Kiva Team Caedes discussion thread and discover that anything is possible.
=Samatar
02/18/11 7:09 AM GMT
Removing superfluous images is sort of part of our regular tasks anyway ("spring cleaning") though normally we would pick what we thought to be the best example, rather than asking the author (one problem that springs to mind there is that the author may not reply). I think the problem we have right now is that some are being culled not long after being approved, which as Geri pointed out to me sorta defeats the purpose of the whole idea.
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
::LynEve
02/18/11 11:52 AM GMT
Well, yes I can empathise with that. I have no idea why This image either never made it to the Mains after being promoted or has been removed very quickly because it is not there now (posted 13/01).
Everyone likes getting notification that an image has been promoted and it does seem like a poke in the eye if it is culled quickly. My eye does feel poked, and my nose out of joint. I suspect it was culled because I have another promoted image with a similar name. They are not the same image and have completely different moods but they are the same location. My nose would have been less disjointed had I been asked which I preferrred to stay or been offered a reason. I did consider them different enough to stand as individual images when I posted them. Having it swept away during a periodic clean up is different to being knocked off ones perch without having time to enjoy its dizzy heights.

I think we all appreciate and welcome the 'Spring Clean' efforts but once notification has been given of a promotion perhaps it would be fairer to let the image have its place of honour for a reasonable amount of time - after all, it has been voted for by 20 of our peers.

OR - do the culling before the notifications. Far fewer poked out eyes that way, because we would never know our image had 'made it' and what we dont know can not hurt.
If enough members get enough eyes poked out enough times they will not be able to see to vote at all.

If the impression held by some that the AC voting system was to be as an advisory aid to the expert image mods is not the case, then I think any promoted image should stay promoted until the next Spring Clean - usually Spring comes only once a year.
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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust . . . . The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." ~ Joseph Joubert (1754-1824)
::jeenie11
02/18/11 1:43 PM GMT
If you were disappointed about 1 photograph can you imagine how I felt when it happened to 5 of them. I always keep the AC sheet so anyone would know that I'm not making it up. A couple of them were put up in January and I never saw (main) next to them. I was never notified about anything except the acceptance and elevation of the photographs into the perms. One of these is called Tiny Car. It seems deserving to me. We need to have consistency.
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AVATAR BY PJ............... i've been so bad about commenting on your photos. believe me when i say i look at them all. feel free to NOT comment on mine. Please Visit My Gallery
::jeenie11
02/18/11 1:48 PM GMT
I found this quote by Roger (.pairal) and think that it's right on: "Suggestion: Don't notify the member that their posting has been elevated to the permanent gallery until the moderators have determined if the image will become part of the permanent gallery."
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AVATAR BY PJ............... i've been so bad about commenting on your photos. believe me when i say i look at them all. feel free to NOT comment on mine. Please Visit My Gallery
::cynlee
02/18/11 2:03 PM GMT
I think maybe, from the sound of things, culling images may have become a large task for the number of mods and that is why they are depending on us to be more discriminating in our choices on the AC. I suggest that if you feel too many of the same image by the same author have been posted quite close together, that there be a means to draw that to the attention of one of the mods so they don't have to patrol the main galleries.

If storage space on the site is not an issue, what is the objection to there being more than one of a similar image in it if it is of similar quality? I am just being devil's advocate because I don't see that anyone has yet verbalized why this is an untenable or undesirable situation.

I would like it though if Caedes would make it possible for us to see if an image has or has not been nominated by an AC member once our own AC nominations (2) for the week have been used up, so we can determine if we should return to nominate an image we feel worthy. Presently, once we use our 2 nominations for the week, the AC button is no longer visible on any image that is posted, so they all look like they have been nominated.
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::casechaser
02/18/11 3:18 PM GMT
How about this; don't notify members of their pictures being elevated. They can learn their picture(s) have made it to the main by actually looking at the main and seeing it/them there and by noticing the word "main" added to their gallery selection for their picture(s). Thus, no hurt feelings by the proud parents.
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::LynEve
02/19/11 2:13 AM GMT
John, I think that could go a little bit towards allieviating any upset but the fact would still remain that in some cases in a very short space of time an image gets posted, evaluated, promoted and demoted and anyone who is going to be hurt would be hurt anyway - the image would still have been deemed unsuitable for whatever reason.
The only way to avoid that would be for the mod evaluations to be done before an image is elevated to "Main' status OR for there to be no intervention at all and let the images remain elevated until a periodic "spring Clean' occurs. Whether elevation is learned of by notification or by individual observation does not alter the fact that it HAS been promoted, and once promoted in all fairness it should stay that way for longer than a matter of weeks or days. It is like giving a child a sweet and then taking it off them before they have a chance to eat it. :)
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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust . . . . The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." ~ Joseph Joubert (1754-1824)
+purmusic
02/21/11 11:32 AM GMT
"- after all, it has been voted for by 20 of our peers."

Incorrect.

You, yourself Lyn, once upon a time strongly advocated upping the number of votes/voters with respect to the C-Index to get a 'fairer' accounting from the Voting Booth. On numerous occasions via posts made to past discussion threads.


"2. The number of voters per nominated image was increased from 15 to 19."

I don't see how, now ... what with the majority out of a total number of nineteen (19) Art Council members voting on any one image, or ten (10) people saying 'yes' to a nominated image ... you, personally, can consider the outcome of a promotion to be a hearty or 'fair' endorsement of any given image.


And the images you are referring to in your other thread (why another thread, by the way? is this one not enough?) ... were most likely voted/promoted under lesser strict criteria.

"1. By default, you will only be able to nominate two images per week. If one or both of those images is confirmed by the Art Council (8 people have to vote "yes"), then you will be able to nominate another image."

Not ten (10) members ... eight (8).
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::LynEve
02/21/11 12:32 AM GMT
Surely the nomination counts as a vote which makes 20 so I would say I was not incorrect but if you want to say I am then that is alright by me - I cant be bothered splitting hairs over such a stupid thing. Is there nothingI have said in this thread that deserves more attention than nitpicking over whether it is 19 or 20.

I was very pleased to see the number of votes on each image upped - and it was not only "once upon a time" I advocated that on the C-index - I still do.

"Why another thread, by the way? is this one not enough?"
Is there a limit on the number of threads ? I should have placed the other one in Feature Bloat/Bug Squash as perhaps it better belonged there
Feel free to transfer the whole thread over to this one if you wish. Or delete it - or send it to the elephant place. Remove the links to the images - do whatever you like with it.

If you read all I have said and not singled out certain aspects you would see I have no complaint about images being demoted/pruned - just that I would prefer them to be axed before we are notified. I have also been a strong advocate of intervention by image mods in the final selection of main gallery images, so I do not know what I am being accused of here.
And you know what - I dont care either. It often seems that no matter what I say I get an antagonistc response.

I feel I am wasting my time contributing to this discusssion.
I will just continue to post images as I always have - and you know what - getting images accepted for the Main galleries is at the bottom of my reasons for posting. Read the first part of my signature text for the main reason.



I am sorry I do not understand what you are referring to about hearty or fair endorsements - or the reference to not 10 members but 8.
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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust . . . . The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." ~ Joseph Joubert (1754-1824)

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