I mentioned in another discussion that one or my notified 'promoted' images was not in fact promoted, or if it had been very soon was not. I said it felt like a poke in the eye. I thought it was just the one.

I have since checked my caedes control.

Since October 26th 2010 I have had ELEVEN notifications of promotions by the Art Council that either never made it to the Main Galleries or have since been culled. I was amazed to discover this - I can not see anything glaringly obviously wrong with them. I was aware that not all images 'make it' and have no disagreement with that and I have said more then once that I am in favour of moderator intervention before the final placemnents in the Main Galleries but this seems a large number of rejections, and if there is good reason for them I would really like to know what they are.
Eleven pokes in the eye !

I do not see the point in bothering to nominate or vote on images any more if the results count for so little and the opinions of the AC members are given so little credence. The people who nominated and voted for these pictures wasted their time, and I am wasting my time nominating and voting on others, as I presume the same thing happens to other members.

Apart from that, it is actually quite hurtful to discover this.
Eleven times feeling pleased and elated - for nothing.

PLEASE PLEASE mods do not notify us of promotions until you have evaluated them and made up your minds, and rejected duplicates and whatever else you do to decide.
It is insulting to receive a promotion notification that is not valid.
It is also insulting to those who nominate and vote that their opinions are so undervalued.

I do understand that the notifications are most likely automated - perhaps something could be done to delay them being sent until the images actually get their 'Main' labels and get placed in the Main Galleries. Frustration about this issue has been seen in other discussions and now I understand why - and I am fully aware that I may be seen as a moaning minnie - but I do feel strongly about this, and really believe that until there is a 'fix' for it the feelings of annoyance and hurt among members will grow.

Something is wrong with this picture! So many nods followed by so many rejections? Why? I'd like to hear an explanation for that happening too? Is there one reason or several?

It surely is demoralizing and defeats the will to bother with all the nominating and voting that we do as AC members.

Here is another reason to be done with the AC altogether. The previous system seemed to work better, but apparently it was a heavy burden on the mods, but it seems that now their burden has just changed from selecting the best to rejecting the best.

I've already written about the 5 or 6 of mine that were treated the same as LynEve's. They were elevated by the AC. I was notified. They never showed up in the perms. I would agree wholeheartedly with LynEve.
PLEASE PLEASE mods do not notify us of promotions until you have evaluated them and made up your minds, and rejected duplicates and whatever else you do to decide.
It is insulting to receive a promotion notification that is not valid.
It is also insulting to those who nominate and vote that their opinions are so undervalued.

Ladies, I hear what you're saying and I understand and agree with you but it all comes down to a matter of control. We have control over what we create or photograph and how we adjust and present our work as a submission. Once you put your work in someone else's hands, however, it's out of your control. The mods have their job to do, as they interpret it, and it isn't always going to dovetail with what the general membership would like. Perhaps it is the old concept of "you'll never understand my job until you do it yourself." I really don't expect any loosening of the control the hierarchy here at Caedes has over our work, despite the many threads posted about the issue. A quote comes to mind here, the even older one about God granting me serenity, courage, and wisdom concerning things I cannot change. So I adjust...

=== I am very selective about what I submit (lately not much), reserving my best work for my personal friends in personal emails or Picasa albums. That keeps those images from being tainted or trashed.

=== I submitted my last image without having the voting feature turned on. That allows me to see only the true responses to the work I put my heart and soul into.

=== I don't bother opening my control page and counting the (main) images to see if any have been demoted. Since it appears their selection is rather willy-nilly, it allows me to understand that their promotion doesn't matter to me.

=== I do currently have a number of photos in the (mains) and so I'm assuming that's why I keep getting A.C. selections to vote on. I abstain from the voting. I figure my vote doesn't mean anything, as illustrated by many of the comments I'm seeing here. That allows me, along with the other three things I've mentioned here, to reduce my stressing over things I cannot change. To be honest, nowadays, the only real reasons I stay in Caedes is because of the contact I have with some very good people and friends and because I'm in the Caedes Kiva team, a much more worthwhile endeavor, IMO.

Do not despair. Take control instead. It's much more healthy for you. I haven't commented on a thread in a while, knowing there's always backlash, and I expect the same thing in response to this comment I'm now making, in spades. But that is also a part of personal control. Expecting a backlash from a comment or a zero vote on a good image or the fluctuation of an image that can't withstand the A.C. vs. the mods conundrum is a matter of control. If you know it's coming, it can't sting quite as much. The only things that matters are the pleasure you derive from your craft and the personal comments you get on it. The rest of it doesn't matter.

-Nikoneer

There is no such thing as absolute control of anything including the quality of our images. These forums are here for us to vent or comment on things that we find bothersome. In the past we have made observations that resulted in changes. If what you do works for you, Nik, that is good. Now discontent has brought to the fore a problem that can easily be rectified. Caedes wants his site to run smoothly, I have no doubt. I believe he will address this issue.

"There is no such thing as absolute control of anything..." ??? Sorry to disagree, but I would be a rather poor historian if I believed that. You apparently only read part of my comment, because I said that the quality of our work is one of the few things we do have control over. But vent away; it is your prerogative to do so. Having said my piece I will stay out of it.

Eleven rejections... how many were not rejected? This seems like an incredible number of promotions to the mains to me.

Also please note that mods do not have any control or say whatsoever whether you are sent a notification when an image is promoted, the process is entirely automated.

Personally I have stopped monitoring what is promoted or voting in the AC as I feel it has become a fruitless task, judging by some of the images I have seen promoted. If the majority are satisfied with the way things are headed in that area I am just going to stick to the forums from now on.

I did read it all, Nik, and we don't even have absolute control of our images though we might like to think so. That things are automated is due to Caedes programming and subject to change. We don't know what goes on behind the scenes between Caedes and the mods, but it could be that we have this new AC to ease their load and as Caedes mentioned, it is a process still subject to change.

Perhaps the actual inclusion of pics into the Main Gallery is a 2- or 3- or even 4-step process. Like everyone else, I'm foggy on what actually happens. As a former programmer, it seems to me that preliminary notifications could be made automatically at each "gateway" with a final, big CONGRATULATIONS! when the pic actually goes into the Main Gallery.

"Eleven rejections... how many were not rejected? This seems like an incredible number of promotions to the mains to me."

I am very happy to answer that question Sam - 16 have not been rejected (as yet)
To put it in proper perspective, since the date mentioned I have uploaded a total of 109 images so I do not see the number as 'incredible' and I am not sure what you are getting at. Percentagewise it is not a large number, surely? I am not responsible for my nominated images, they are nominated by others and I am not privy to who - perhaps you are. Maybe it is being suggested they are 'friends' favours? Well I do not believe that, I have enough confidence in the quality of my work and in the integrity of those on my friends list to reject that totally. Over the 5 years of my membership I have added many friends to my list - there now remain approx 20 fully active members.

I am very happy to provide the list of 'rejections.' There may be very good reason(s) for them being rejected. I am here every day and if it is considered I am uploading too many images I could easily be told, just as I could be told why so many approved photos are not good enough. Should I lower my standards so that they do not get nomination? Flood the site with my awful experimental fractals to ensure I don't get nominations? Or just stop posting ?

Perhaps the AC jury is just too large and the votes of such a varied group do not reflect the standards the Image Mods expect for the Main Galleries. A smaller jury, more in tune with the expectations of the Image mods maybe?

We have been told in the news on the front page that "Over the past month, 245 images have been nominated to the Art Council and 38% of those were approved by the Art Council." so it would appear that the AC is not willy-nilly approving each and every nomination. How many of that 38% actually ended up or remained in the Main Galleries?

Perhaps the whole issue could be addressed by the Mods having control over which nominations are presented to the AC jury for voting on. If they are not deemed suitable after the voting then they are not suitable before and could be axed at that stage.

"To put it in proper perspective, since the date mentioned I have uploaded a total of 109 images so I do not see the number as 'incredible' and I am not sure what you are getting at."

Lyn - As often mentioned promotion is supposed to be reserved for outstanding images; a good way to decide on promoting an image that has often been mentioned is that it should be worthy of publication in a professional magazine. I would suggest that an individual who can take 27 photos in less than 4 months that are worthy of publication should perhaps be working for National Geographic, rather than just posting on a photo sharing website... in short, what I am getting at is that in my opinion people are being far too generous with both nominations and promotions. But as I also said this does not seem to be the opinion of the majority and if that is the path they are happy for the site to head down, I wish them the best and I am going to forget about the image side of the site and just stick to the forums.

One other thing I should mention - I don't see that the number of promotions should necessarily have any correlation with the number of promotions a member receives, as one could post 40 snapshots of their cat on the site but that doesn't mean they are more likely or worthy of having any of their photos promoted than a member who only posts one photo.

If the quality of the images being promoted is not the best, then by opting out and not being involved in the AC voting aspect, though you have that privilege, you allow for the promotion of images that may be inferior. So, maybe the choices that get promoted are not the consensis of the majority after all, but rather the concensis of those who are afraid to vote no because we are expected to be in conformity with the group by a certain percentage or our voting privileges will be revoked. The consequence being that a very small group of members is setting the standard for what is a high quality image.

This is an aside from the original point of the thread, but two people have mentioned not voting or abstaining from voting and I felt the need to express a point about that.

"The consequence being that a very small group of members is setting the standard for what is a high quality image."

Trouble is I feel like that is happening already and my voting doesn't appear to be having any impact.

Perhaps not the dramatic impact you would like, but how many people like you, who feel the standard has dropped, are not voting? I don't know. I just got my privilege back, but I can't bring myself to say yes on some of the images I have been asked to vote on.
Personally, I liked the way things were done before the AC, but this is how Caedes wants it for whatever reason(s).

Perhaps you're right. I guess I will just concentrate on voting and try not look at the results.

Sam, I never said nor do I believe that ANY of my images are worthy of publication in a glossy magazine. If I did I would be basking in that glory. . Nor did I say that I thought each of those nominations deserved promotion
I am simply pointing out that Notifications of promotion are being given that are not correct - they have NOT been promoted. They have been voted on by a body of people to represent THIS site, and have been rejected by those who keep Main Galleries the showcase they are intended to be.
No one is disputing the fact that they should be kept for outstanding images but if the outstanding images are to be chosen by Image Mods then why bother with the AC voting at all? I am unsure if all members can nominate or just the AC members but either way why dont the Mods just consider the nominations and decide, and leave out the voting part.

There are many images in the Main galleries that I personally do not consider 'outstanding' and I include my own in that but that is not the point. There are images there that no International prestigious magazine such as National Geographic would accept.
I actually was not aware that that was the criteria - I thought they were supposed to be decent images that are suitable as desktop decoration, nothing more, nothing less.

The point I was TRYING to make is that members are being upset about being notified of promotions that have been judged by their peers - members of a body that has been selected to choose suitable images and these are being vetoed, so therefore the AC is not serving its purpose. More emphasis should be given to educating the AC members.

The 27 images you refer to so disparagingly were uploaded in good faith - if you dont want them that is ok by me. They were taken prepared and uploaded to this site by me specifically for this site, and I have no illusions about them being NG material - please give me some credit for a modicom of common sense! They are uploaded as wallpaper images, not NG images for which I presume good money is paid - take them or leave them, but I have been informed they have been promoited to the Main Galleries when they have not.

I have no disagreement with you that members are being too generous in their promotions - I see them in the AC voting all the time, and there is where we are able to vote accordingly.

As I mentioned before - if the nominations are not up to standard - axe them before they get voted on.

I really am upset that this should be seen as a personal campaign by me to have my images included in the main galleries - when in fact I am trying to point out why some members have become disillusioned. There is enough evidence in other discussions that this is the case.

I did not nominate those 27 images out of 109 - nor did I ever suggest they should have been.
I also do not agree that a member who posts 40 images (be they snapshots of their cat or otherwise) is no more likely to have an image promoted than a member who posts only one in the same period. The more you post the more possibility you have of posting a 'good one' - unless of course the single posting is from someone whose standard is so high they are headhunted by National Geographic. A person posting 40 images is not necessarily more 'worthy' - granted, but they are more likely.

Your opinion that my specific images have been nominated and voted on too generously is read and understood - but that is not my problem. I upload them, thats all.


Edited: LInks removed

Lyn, you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. You don't need to take it as a personal attack every time someone offers a point of view other than your own. I don't beleive that I was disparaging of your images. Nor do I necessarily disagree that having images "demoted" would be upsetting. My remarks were for tge most part general comments on my thoughts about the AC, I only referenced the statistics you provided as an example because they were relevant to the thread. I didn't say anything about the quality of the images or your ability as a photographer. I simply stated that I thought 27 promotions in 4 months (for ANY member) is too many. I also thought I made it quite clear that all this was just my opinion and that the majority clearly disagreed with me.

Signing off from this thread now as I am sure people are tiring of hearing tge same thing from me over and over.

keeping it simple....please do not notify that a photo has made it to the mains until it has made it to the mains. Since the AC does not have the final say, please wait until the mods have said OK to the images.

Referencing my '27 images' was personal.:)

I thought I had agreed that too many images were being promoted?
I actually thought I had agreed with much of what you said.
I did not see it as a personal 'attack' - simply responded from my point of view (which is the only one I can speak for)
I am not sure whose point of view I am supposed to give other than my own, but think I also speak for others about the issue first mentioned -

premature notifications.

I am not bothered about how many images I get promoted (Honestly and truly) I just share the frustration with others about being notified before the decision to axe them has been made.

Perhaps I should have said "Your opinion that my specific images have been nominated and voted on too generously is read and understood" should have had added to it "and agreed with" but as I said that is not my problem, and there is nothing I can do about it.

I may in the minority, but I'm not happy with the AC having the final say. I think it should just be a recommending body. But I do agree it would be best for notifications not to be sent until the moderators have had their say. But I suppose caedes would have to be the one to change that.

@ cynlee: If your percentage of "yes" votes has to be between 5 and 80%, and only 38% of nominations are promoted, then statistically you're "safer" voting No. It's your nominations that are more of an issue.

It is becoming increasingly obvious that the AC is a small self-centred group of artists that are intent on promoting friends images above all else and who feel they should have total control of the main galleries. The fact that a good, but hardly inspirational, artists gets 25% of their images promoted, and that half of them are then having to be removed, rather indicates that the current voters on the AC should be replaced since they are quite obviously failing to do the job correctly. In the mean time, the main galleries are dominated by a few artist, the first few pages lack any real impact, and are hardly a good advert for the Caedes site as a whole.

I may be in the minority also - I am in favour of the AC being an advisory aid.

Quote from another recent discussion
=Samatar "Geri has recently indicated quite clearly to me that he wants the AC to be responsible for making the decisions regarding promotion and for the mods to interfere with the process as little as possible."

"::coram9 ...It is becoming increasingly obvious that the AC is a small self-centred group of artists that are intent on promoting friends images"

Quote from Caedes news item on the front page
"There have been about 100 voting Art Council members this month"
I do not see this as a 'small group"
I wonder who you would suggest replacing them with ? ?
The requirements for inclusion are clearly set out
HERE
19 members vote on each nomination.

Speaking for myself - of the FIVE successful images I have nominated since 11/11/10 only one has been from a member on my friends list.There may have been more but I tend to delay promoting images and very often they get done by someone else. Accusing those who take the time and make the effort to nominate and vote fairly and without bias, of self centredness is a bit unfair, and only serves to discourage those who do bother.

I regret starting this thread - it was a request that notifications be delayed until after selections but that seems to have got lost somewhere along the way.

Inspiration is relative - what inspires you may not inspire me and anyone is free to choose from the Main Galleries or New Images those which do to enjoy and use for the purpose they are created - not everyone has to like the same thing.
Maybe the lack of impact for you on the first few pages has more to do with the number and variety of what is being posted overall. 57 new images today - nominations can either selected from them or the Main Galleries can remain static, boring and unchanged.

"Maybe the lack of impact for you on the first few pages has more to do with the number and variety of what is being posted overall. 57 new images today - nominations can either selected from them or the Main Galleries can remain static, boring and unchanged."

With all these new changes (AC etc) the number of images being posted has fallen, and the overall quality has indeed lowered. However, I feel that less input into the main gallery would serve the site better than having a main gallery full of mediocre images.

As someone who is able to nominate images I find it increasingly difficult to find something worth nominating, as most of the obvious ones get nominated by others. This is good, but does not mean that I should nominate less worthy ones just because I can.

To be honest, nowadays, the only real reasons I stay in Caedes is because of the contact I have with some very good people and friends and because I'm in the Caedes Kiva team, a much more worthwhile endeavor..IMO
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I agree 100% with this section of Nik's comment. The Kiva Caedes Team has loaned $5125.00 to
hard working folks who just need a little hand up to succeed
after a loan is paid off just re-invest in another person with a great entrepreneur idea.
I wish more people would consider joining this worthy cause
Diane

"It is becoming increasingly obvious that the AC is a small self-centred group of artists that are intent on promoting friends images above all else and who feel they should have total control of the main galleries".

Chris, I think that is conjecture and not necessarily true. There may be members on that council who feel that way, but that doesn't make it true for the entire membership. I don't think the intent is to promote 'friends' images above all else nor to have control over the content of the main galleries. What purpose would that serve?

Perhaps I am naive in thinking that it is in everyone's best interest to promote what is genuinely well captured, composed, created or manipulated to the main galleries as the result would be to draw the public to the site for the best images for their desktops, etc.

As an AC member I have been asked to vote on some really bad images and do not hesitate to vote "no" regardless of who the author might be. I have nominated what I think are some really excellent fractals too that never made it into the galleries.

There are guidelines on this site that help in explaining what constitutes a good image and those are not necessarily adhered to by either the artists who compose or the members who judge. It would be good for all of us to review those guidelines and approach the voting privilege with open minds, concerning ourselves only with the images before us and not who might have created it.

But, as to the issue as originally posed, there should be a mechanism in place that disallows notice to an artist that their image has been promoted to the main gallery until said image has been viewed by a moderator whose job it is to be intune with said guidelines as mentioned above.

If our boss told us we had a raise coming, but later retracted that statement for one reason or another, we would be disappointed and sullen because what we had been told wasn't true. The same with the notifications that your image has been promoted, only to discover that it just "ain't so" is also a let down, no where as serious as the analogy of the raise, but something that can be dealt with and avoided with a simple change in programming and review of promotions by the mods before announcement to the author.

Addendum: I stay on the site because I like the friendships I have made, because I learn things about photography, manipulation, fractals, software, hardware, etc. I enjoy viewing other people's work and being able to post my own. If we could use these forums to present ideas in a more diplomatic manner with acceptance and appreciation for each others talents and ideas, then we could have a really exciting and enjoyable time here together and improve our own skills and those of others as well.

As Sam said, the main galleries must be reserved for outstanding images. I'm taking photos since 35 years now and I must say I took perhaps a few dozens of outstanding images.
Lyn: You can't claim to have taken dozens of masterpieces in the past three months ...
This was my only '2 cents' in this thread...

For goodness sake - when did I ever claim to have created even one masterpiece ??

Just don't tell me my image is outstanding enough to be promoted when it is NOT promoted ! !

I have been taking photos for just 5 years and have not one outstanding image by my own standards. I am not a professional photographer. I make desktop wallpapers - thats all. Sometimes you tell me they have been promoted, I am pleased about that. Then I discover you misinformed me - I am not pleased about that.
I am sure the issue could be easily recitified.

I repeat what I first said

PLEASE PLEASE mods do not notify us of promotions until you have evaluated them and made up your minds, and rejected duplicates and whatever else you do to decide.


I am well aware and have had my own opinion continually reinforced that I do not create masterpieces. I never will.
.

I dare say that none of us has EVER created any masterpieces. Please just read what Lyn had to say and don't draw any conclusions other than a problem exists. It needs to be fixed.

It's difficult to read through any discussion thread, when the level of histrionics reaches proportions as exemplified by this one. And I suspect ... dissuades many from participating and adding their own thoughts and ideas towards that of a solution. If one is desired and needed.


'Your' (speaking generally here) images were indeed promoted ... and then, subsequently removed at a later date. Two to three weeks .. or more, after the fact.

As they were deemed to not be up to par, with what is considered to be the 'best of the best' that the site and membership has to offer. (Add in the considerations of multiple imagery showing up as well.)


Notifications are automatically sent.

The image mods have nothing to do with this, as noted and stated, a number of times on the various threads concerning this subject matter.


The issue of notifications was also broached by the image mods on the administrative side of the fence some time back ... and now it is up to *caedes to decide what to do.

And here it is a matter of prioritizing time and energies.

No other person/member/image mod, save *caedes himself does the coding for the site. Perhaps, some patience and understanding is in order?



It will either be that the Art Council and all of the recommendations/promotions filtered through the Art Council stay put ... or, the image mods maintain some active role in the curating of the Main Galleries.

Changing when notifications are sent would only mitigate things a bit, in my mind. There are many members who now see fit to comment on an image's page; 'gets my vote in the AC' ... which, I see as more breeding ground for dissension and complaints in the future on these same grounds:

'I was told that my image was nominated and promoted by another member? Why am I not seeing my image in the Main Galleries?'



Some members have expressed that the image mods have some say ... some, apparently, do not wish to maintain what was the status quo.

Notification timings aside.

As 'Spring Cleanings' brought the same stuff up ... 'why was my image removed?' ... in the past. And I have little doubt, whether the culling is done later or sooner ... the same will happen.



If the objective is to have a 'smoothly running site', i.e. .. no complaints ... then, I guess the membership and respective Art Council will have the final word.

Is that good for the site overall?

Guess that topic could spawn several other discussion threads in and of itself.

Can the process be refined enough? Maybe?




I am not sure just how representative these discussion are, vis a vis the membership at large. As there are only a handful of people showing up whenever there is a 'problem'.

Perhaps, the most vocal ... and that is their prerogative.


I repeat;

"It's difficult to read through any discussion thread, when the level of histrionics reaches proportions as exemplified by this one. And I suspect ... dissuades many from participating and adding their own thoughts and ideas towards that of a solution. If one is desired and needed."

The Caedes.net Code of Conduct

1. General

1. Citizens shall endeavour to make caedes.net a better place (or at least not worse).

Just as some of us are more vocal, some of us are just apprehensive or laid back. And some of us just don't care anymore as stated above. One of the reasons more don't frequent these threads is the possibility of being portrayed as histrionic or foolish or both.

I feel that LynEve, an excellent photographer, has been, as would I, insulted by the tenor of the remarks above.

Quote from jeenie11's post
"They were elevated by the AC. I was notified. They never showed up in the perms."
this is not 2 or 3 weeks later

Could members not be given the respect and courtesy of being informed that although their image was accepted by the AC it has not been included in the main galleries - for whatever the reason was?

'Making caedes a better place' also includes respect and appreciation for citizens who give their time and efforts towards that goal. It includes listening to any grievances.Unhappy members do not make it a better place.

histrionics = A deliberate display of emotion for effect
I and I think others see vocalizing our concerns in a different light - a right we have by virtue of the existance of these boards. Maybe some are dissuaded from participating because they have seen how futile it sometimes is. Have your say, get knocked down and then wait for the elephant gun happens often. Maybe they are just not the least bit interested. If one does not make a fool of oneself by starting or joining in a discussion it is very likely someone will come along and do it for them.

I predicted in my first post that I would be labelled a moaning minnie - at least I got that right so I will take myself my feeble endeavours to make it a better place (or at least not worse) and my histrionics off now. Our concerns have been answered - and we are put in our place. Again.

Back to making desktops :).

Minnie

I've added this to the suggestions poll (it hasn't had much activity lately anyway).

I agree completely with Jen. Lyn is an excellent photographer, myself having faved many of her submissions, but she is also a decent person, willing to listen and compromise but not one to light a fire where one is not needed. Neither Lyn nor the rest of the membership here deserve to be treated so crassly for asking a good and reasonable question that has yet to be answered. There's been a lot of dancing around but no real answer. Too much "I know more than you do" and "you're just being silly" nonsense. I've heard a few of you state that these threads are for the exchange of ideas. Alright. That would be good. Some of you are trying to give ideas but you get overshadowed by the thinly veiled insults. Ghandi was once asked what he thought of western civilization. He replied "I think it would be a good idea." That is how I see the maturity of some of you and I'm getting rather ashamed to be associated with this site if this is the nature of its membership. Some of you need to grow up and learn how to share your ideas with respect for one another. Enough already.

I will not dance around the question, act as if you are just being silly, pretend to know more than anyone else or even voice any thinly veiled insults.

The coding of the site is done by one person who runs the site and listens to what is being said and weighs the pros and cons of each and every suggestion very carefully before taking any action.

Notifications are automated (ie: in the current coding).

I believe it was answered above that a mod or two is deleting images from the Main galleries.

Hope this helps to summarize and clarify. :o)

Thank you, Mimi. No one commands more respect nor gives it more than you.