I've had about 50 or so pictures to vote on in the AC for evaluation. I feel a little uncomfortable about the whole thing because I really do not understand how it works. I'm still reeling from the disappointment of having so many of the pictures in the AC upgraded by the AC and nuked by the mods. Will it continue this way? I'd just like to know how much our votes mean.

I don't see that it's a waste of time unless every image you vote for is overridden.

I myself have promoted many images in the past that other mods have disagreed with and moved back. I don't have any problem with this as I know they are doing it in the interest of the site. If I strongly disagree we might have a discussion about it and come to a decision together as to whether it is main gallery material or not; the same sort of thing might happen with images that are promoted by the AC. So the suggestion that letting mods choose the images instead of the AC if they are going to occasionally override a decision the AC makes seems irrelevant to me, since we do that among ourselves anyway. Maybe the difference is that we have had longer to adjust and can accept that this will happen without taking it personally or getting upset about it.

What people need to understand is that a site like this is something that changes and develops over time. We don't just make a decision to promote an image and then that decision is set in concrete for all time. The majority of images that were in the mains in the earliest days of the site are mostly gone now, due to the increasing standards in quality that have developed over the years. If you are expecting that any image is going to stay in the main galleries forever, you are going to be disappointed...

One more suggestion; if anyone feels that they truly are wasting their time voting in the AC when they know there is the possibility that some portion of their selections may be overridden, you can always opt out, ie abstain on voting or just ignore the art council jobs altogether.

Very good explanation Sam, thank you.

Sam, I also appreciate your (kindly stated with no sarcasm) explanation about this topic. I guess I just wish you all at the top would try to think of this whole issue as if you were one of us little guys. Thanks. Jen

What makes the mods any more able to discern a good image from a bad one than some of the rest of us? Do they also have a final say in who wins the contests too? Just asking.

Judging from the comments about how good an image is that are left on images that are obviously of not very good quality, I would say yes to the first question. Seeing the quality of some of the winners of competitions I would say no to the second question. Just answering. But then I would have thought that was self evident anyway.

Seems like this topic (or parts of) has been covered before?


.cynlee - 26/06/10 9:05:

"I have noticed a few images that have been promoted to the perms while I was away from the site that deserved closer scrutiny because they had some very obvious flaws."


.cynlee - 8/07/10 2:23:

"I'd like to suggest alternatively, that perhaps moderators have a quick look at any image chosen for consideration by the Art Council before said council goes to the trouble of voting on them at all."


::cynlee - 20/02/11 18:43:

"Perhaps not the dramatic impact you would like, but how many people like you, who feel the standard has dropped, are not voting? I don't know. I just got my privilege back, but I can't bring myself to say yes on some of the images I have been asked to vote on.
Personally, I liked the way things were done before the AC, but this is how Caedes wants it for whatever reason(s)."



::jeenie11 - 22/07/10 21:12:

"OK, this is going to really ruffle some feathers. after a few weeks of viewing these pictures, i amazed of what i see coming through and what i see is not coming thru the artist council nominations. i feel that people are definitely promoting the images of their close friends whether or not they're really good. not only that, they get nominated after 1 viewing."


::jeenie11 - 22/07/10 23:45:

"i just feel there are some out there who nominate rather carelessly."


::jeenie11 - 19/09/10 0:44:

"i have been quite disappointed in the whole art council thing. i am amazed by what gets nominated and what doesn't. i think that nothing should be nominated until the picture has been up for a week or so (at least). there are so many photographs that predate the art council which are superior to what i see nominated. i can't even get excited about uploading anything. i hope this feeling is short lived."



::LynEve - 7/09/10 22:56

"Agreed - there are some substandard images being nominated
and it follows that some of these will be voted into the perm galleries when only a majority of 11 voters are required to vote positively - too small a number in my opinion - double it or more, and make the casting vote an image mods."


::LynEve - 19/09/10 2:01:

"If I felt strongly enough that an image was very very obviously and glaringly misplaced in Main Galleries I would notify an Image Mod and leave it at that, trusting their judgement."


::LynEve - 21/02/11 3:40:

"I may be in the minority also - I am in favour of the AC being an advisory aid."

It seems rather obvious to me that the reason the AC thing came up again is because all of a sudden it reappeared on our pages. I might add that there was no discussion about how it would be used and how ultimately pictures would be judged and then elevated or not. I think some of the above statements are valid. What about the rest of you?

I notice that there have already been at least six images promoted by the same author, all of the same/similar locations. This is one of the reasons the mods need to have the jurisdiction to "edit" choices made by the AC; individuals may get only one of these images for voting and approve it without realising there are already several (possibly superior) examples in the main galleries by the same person.

Incidentally I have already seen two examples of hummingbird photos promoted; this is one of the favourite subjects of artists on this site and so there are a lot of very good images of them, many of which will probably end up being promoted. IMO it is the duty of the mods to go through them and pick out the best, in order to avoid having thirty pages of hummingbirds in the main galleries.

This sort of thing has been mentioned before, but I thought it might help to refresh peoples memories. In these cases it isn't really about the mods being better judges than anybody else, more a case of us editing the site to make it function correctly just like the editor of a paper needs to rearrange and remove articles to make it work properly and avoid it having far too many pages.

Thanks, Sam. You've just given us some excellent criteria for nominating and elevating. Also I appreciate the explanation about too many of the same subject.

May I ask whether currently the Main Gallery selections are made solely from nominations voted on by the AC or are the image mods still able to promote other ones without them passing through the voting system as well?

Without wanting to re-stir up a hornets nest I am hoping that members now do not get advised of promotions before the final selections or rejections are made by mods. It caused upset for so many before - so I do hope it is not the case now.

I have mentioned elsewhere that I like and approve of not being able to see nomination buttons on our own images - not knowing of nominations saves anyone getting agitated if their image is rejected.

I would hope that the system whereby Mods can promote images on their own volition is still in place. I see many images that are worthy of the main galleries that appear not to get promoted. I do not get to vote so I cannot help these images, other than to recommend them.

I got the impression that an image, once nominated, couldn't be nominated again, and that put me off nominating! I didn't want to feel that I had blown an image's chances... at least till I felt reasonable confidence in the decisions of whichever panel was deciding.

Like most members and visitors, I come to this site to view wonderful photographs and artwork, post my work, and, generally have a pleasantly spent block of time on-line. When I get something placed into the “Main” gallery, I feel validated for that particular upload. When pictures I have nominated make it into the “Main,” I feel good for that artist.

But, I never lose sight that Caedes is not mine. I am a member, guest, visitor. I have been able to post suggestions for changes and that is all anyone should be allowed to do. It amazes me at times how much patience Geri must have with the constant and chronic discussion threads covering the same topic, ad nauseam.

I could not care less how the c-index is calculated or why the Art Council is back. Just accept it. “What is a waste of my time” or “my vote doesn’t count” are so meaningless in the grand scheme of things for a visit to this site.

My thought is very simple, ignore what you cannot change and learn to enjoy what you have. Otherwise, you simply will always be unhappy and quick to tell us all about it. John Kenneth Galbraith once said, “Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.

Caedes started the site, but it is the members who keep it going and provide the raison d'etre for it's continuance. It is our images that keep web surfers looking here for wallpaper, etc. Sure he could pull the plug anytime, but the members certainly should have some input. All of us (together) are smarter than any of us (alone). Some of us (am not including myself here) have provided suggestions to help make the site more attractive or sought out or manageable.

Maybe you don't care about some things on the site, John, but other members do. There is no harm in letting them voice an opinion on a topic as long as it is polite and fit for public consumption. Expressing an opinion is not necessarily an implication that the person having said opinion is unhappy.

Yes, I preferred the AC when there were more mods choosing, but from what I saw take place in the abscence of the AC these past few months, the choices were one sided and picked by only one mod. To me that is unbalanced.

I think the mods should function as their calling implies and 'moderate' the images that are selected to the Main Gallery from those voted in by the membership on the Art Council so that there aren't too many of the same image or any grossly unfavorable images being selected. I think they should also nominate images for consideration to the AC. Though they are mods, they are still members like the rest of the community.

How can anyone take issue with a member asking a question either. I asked two simple questions above and was denied an answer to both except by Chris who gave 'yes' as an answer to my first question, a response that did not apply, but I knew what he was trying to say.

I was hoping a mod would explain:

1). the difference between their abilities to choose good images and our abilities to choose good images and:

2). Tell us if they have a final say in the choice of contest winners after the voting is done.

Simple.

Perhaps you did not read Sam's post above. He certainly answered the first of your question. The second is just your paranoia.

Personally I am with John on this one. I am a guest here. We, the members, do not own this site. We do not run it, organise it, program it or no much else other than post images and vote on them. Should Caedes want that can be stopped or continued as he wishes. The site is a privilege not a right of those who visit and post here.

Apparently, Chris, you didn't read mine.
I read Sam's post and I agree and I said that in my comment above yours. That doesn't answer the question however.

I never said we 'owned' the site. I know perfectly well who 'owns' the site. I said the members are the ones who continue to give the site a reason to exist and should be heard. How hard is that to understand?

I think too many thrive on the conflict and not on the solution.

If I may add one more "learn" to my list above, learn to read and understand the positions and statements given by others and just don't look for where you may continue the attack and prolong your disagreement. Your posititon has been stated often enough for everyone to understand your views and answers to your repeated questions have always been given.

Is there a point when the cabinet will be filled or our we always going to find the need give more of the same answers to the same questions?

I don't think answers have been given, John. The questions are on my mind and I have yet to recieve a direct answer. It really is that simple. Not looking to prolong anything and have read every word put forth. I fail to see where a direct answer has been proffered.

Cynlee's question. "What makes the mods any more able to discern a good image from a bad one than some of the rest of us? "

Sam's answer. "In these cases it isn't really about the mods being better judges than anybody else, more a case of us editing the site to make it function correctly just like the editor of a paper needs to rearrange and remove articles to make it work properly and avoid it having far too many pages."

As for the second question, well you can ask again if you want, but the question is so insulting I rather hope no one even bothers answering.

As to the first question, Sam states "In these cases" he is referring to weeding out duplicate images and the like 'after' the voting to maintain balance in the Main Gallery. Some others expressed the belief that mods are better adept at choosing the images than any Art Coucil. That is the situation which I asked to be clarified with regard to what makes them better judges.

With regard to question 2, You'd like that no one answer that I'm sure. It is hardly insulting considering that they do play a role in nixing our choices behind the scenes in other venues, why not also in the contests? If it is not true, then a simple 'No, they don't' would suffice. There you go being insulted for someone else when it is you who take issue with the least suspected slight. Steering this one to the graveyard, Chris? I see it coming.

I will give out creds on this discussion's posts, I will not engage in it any further.

Good for you Les. There will be no answer forthcoming is the answer.

It's simple enough really. Some people are nominating/promoting images they shouldn't, so they need to stop or a moderator needs to remove those images from the Main Galleries. But anything I approve should of course be left.
On a secondary note, I'd be glad to assist one of the mods in deciding which of my images belong in the Main Galleries. Just let me know who to PM!

I will take a stab at question #2. What possible motive, for what possible reason, would a mod care who wins a monthly contest? There are no door prizes, no cash exchanges hands, no trophies to adorn the mantles. It is something given to us which is in the category of having fun. The bragging rights have no depth. Please, enjoy the little victories life wants to give you and don't worry about a possible mod conspiracy to control all things Caedes.

cynlee maybe you should ask God for the answer.On second thought hes probably to busy handing out gift of skill at the skills line to answer them.

I am not sure that a simple No they don't would satisfy you. Who would you accept this from. There are different level of moderators with different privileges, and the one with the most privilege is Caedes. Do you want him to com here and say no? Would you accept a no from anyone less?

On the other matter, I for one have seen no increase in the quality of images in the main gallery since the members started voting in images, in fact rather the opposite. On that basis alone I feel the moderators are sufficiently able to promote and judge images. Whether they are better is not really the point, although in my opinion they are.

"It seems rather obvious to me that the reason the AC thing came up again is because all of a sudden it reappeared on our pages. I might add that there was no discussion about how it would be used and how ultimately pictures would be judged and then elevated or not."


Found via the "Site Information" page (located in the left-hand side menus of any page under "Navigation"), better known as "Other Stuff that wouldn't fit anywhere else":

"Caedes Art Council"

On the implied rigging of the contests, since often the winning image is not promoted to the main galleries, and often other images in the contest are (Talking about contests before the AC got off the ground here), it would seem silly that if the mods rigged the contest, they would not put images they then promoted in to placed positions.

It was just a question, John, as I stated quite clearly. You wish to chastise me for thinking it? It was based on what we have seen take place in other depts. There is no conspiracy afoot, or is there? What possible reason could I have for asking the question? Answer: I wanted to know.

Bob, your adolescent remark offers nothing of substance to this discussion, but you are forgiven for your age.

Chris, I didn't say anyone rigged the contest. I just asked if they had overriding powers, that is quite clear.

Ill give you an answer to your questions,rather then constantly bring the same stuff up do a search.Your answers will be found.But thats not how you roll you like to complain all the time.You go from thread to thread arguing with everyone.To be honest its really getting old.

Another thing you are a very small part of the website,just like the mods are and the other members are.Everyone makes things happen here not just one member.Caedes has bent over backwards to pretty much do everything the memebers ask and still this is how it goes.

In brief:

Yes, the moderators can still individually promote images.

*caedes decides who the moderators are. Accordingly, the obvious answer is they are people whose taste and ability to carry out the various duties of being a moderator he trusts. Are they necessarily the only people? Nope, but they are a proven group as far as he is concerned, and the ones that have been selected so far.

Some mods (including myself) have not done as much promoting because we either never did get into it, or we got busy and had to take care of our lives. Some mods stopped because they couldn't take the constant wrangling and unappreciation, disrespect for, and disagreement with decisions that have been made in regards to promotion that permeates some of these threads, and threw up their hands. Thus, it ended up with one or two *very dedicated mods*, whose work should be appreciated, doing the bulk of the work.

I have been working to be around more myself, after having to take a break again almost immediately after being promoted to image mod. I will be promoting images and I will also participate in the artist council when I am on it (I have a log of images to go vote on, and I will be doing so tonite).

That's all the answers I have at this time which answers any question that Sam has not already answered, because I will not cover things he has already answered in what I see as clear and straightforward a manner as possible.

After that, If I didn't answer your question/issue, it's because I don't know the answer, or because I choose not to indulge conspiracy theories. Take your pick.

Well, if you mods would answer the questions without all the obfuscation, there would be no reason to continue the thread, but some of you like to be abusive and that makes some of us defensive and I know I am only a small part, but I do have contact with many members who offer the same views and insights and they are just not as vocal as I. And that is a serious generalization about me going from thread to thread. Sometimes I don't visit the boards for extended periods and sometimes I am directed to a discussion by others or become a sounding board to others and I speak for those who wish to remain in the background.

The mods have been answering them for years.The problem is nobody seems to like what is said.Maybe the site here isn't perfect fit for one person but its always seemed to be a good fit for everyone.

If you have a problem why not run it through the proper channels.for instance changes to the site there a location to offer suggestions.Why must you do it on open forum?Why must you always call the admins of the site out?Once again on the open forum.

The fact that there are groups of members that ban together and try to manipulate the site for their own personal gain has been pretty obvious for a long time.All I have to say is those members are just lucky Caedes hasnt ban them cause if it was up to me I would have ban those members along time ago.

cynlee maybe you should ask God for the answer.On second thought hes probably to busy handing out gift of skill at the skills line to answer them........

How smug and self righteous is that statement, Bob?

I have written to Caedes. I have PM'd mimi.
I didn't call anyone 'out', but you for serving up such a generous portion of bigotry.

You are a mod. Set a good example before you attempt to belittle others.

The open forum is for discussion. You would have us not use them at all then your job would be easy.

*I am not twisting your arm or demanding that you believe what I have said. The choice is yours*
I guess that only applys to the other party when YOU voice YOUR opionion not when someone else voices theirs.
Bigotry?? ahhh ok whatever explain that one to me.
As to the calling the admins out you are always implying there is something going on.Once again you do this is open forum.

I vote to move this discussion thread to the Elephant Graveyard.

Please ... no creds ... the 'zero' doesn't bother me.

Really it doesn't.

;-))

Go figure, a 'Cheesehead' being the voice of reason here..

:oP



p.s. Lovely pic of you, btw, Sherree. Think your smile could be tapped as an alternative energy source.

Then it should be accompanied by a few more like +bobs comment about God. But you wouldn't do that because he is a "mod". (rhymes with god)

No one can ever say there is no favoritism shown here.

Everyone is encouraged to read my comment too and make up their own minds, now that you have given it special significance.

I've tried to not get involved in this discussion but GOOD GRIEF!!! SERIOUSLY!! I can't believe all the hostility over the Art Council there are simple ways to solve this

1. If you don't like the image tick NO or ABSTAIN (it's not compulsory to tick yes to make the artist feel good)
2. If it's upsetting you OPT OUT (that too is not compulsory to be in the Council)
3. If you have a problem with the site simple solution LEAVE
4. Start up your own site therefore you will have complete control over what is posted in the galleries.

I've sat and read ALL the comments on here.. from what I see the questions have been answered by a few people (not just by the mods).. yes you may not like the answer but the answers are going to be the same just said in different ways.

I think it's a good thing for the mods to sift through what we have voted on as I've seen so many flower pics, humming birds and certain shots of the same scene nominated.. I for one don't want to see 10 pages of the exact or almost same thing.. maybe if your voting have a look at what other pics are in the main gallery so you don't overload it.. I've also seen pics that are definately not the quality for the main gallery come through (tilted, blurry, over exposed etc).. instead of going off about the Art Council and the mods maybe some of this excess energy could be directed to the members who are nominating..

I've been a member here for a long time and i've seen a lot of changes to the site.. and I have to say it has improved overall..

I read that people should be treat with a bit of respect? that should be towards EVERYONE not just a select few who are in agreeance with certain peoples views.. it's not going to get anyone anywhere with insults and abuse.

As for the conspiracy theory about contests.. 3 words.. GET OVER IT! there is no conspiracy it's the members votes.

Phew didn't mean to go that long.. lol.. but that is my view on the whole subject don't really care if you agree or not it's how I see it ;)

Oh and favouritism?? seriously?? is there anything you actually do like about this site? because from the sounds of it you are one very unhappy lady

Agreed the people who use the site have way more control now.

I certainly never said anything about a conspiracy theory. That was a mod who introduced those words. I asked a simple question and everyone went into a tizzy.

I didn't say anything about not liking the site, Jackie. The trouble is people don't 'read', they more 'read into'. +bob should have been chastised for his back handed slam at my mention of God, but he was not. It does not set a good example when mods get away with stuff that they accuse rank and file of doing. That IS favoritism.

"( but that is my view on the whole subject don't really care if you agree or not it's how I see it " ;)

That seems to be the current around here. No one cares what any one else has to say, only want to put forth their own opinions.

The only mod here who showed any evidence of aplomb, sense, composure and respect in their commenting was Sam and Cat was doing well until the end.

Oh and plus Bob, I didn't 'imply' anything, I based my question on the way other things work around here and a solid, yes or no answer would have settled the matter. Sure threw many into a huff of unwarranted indignation.

"I didn't 'imply' anything, I based my question on the way other things work around here"

I certainly felt that you had implied that you felt, or thought, or had a feeling, that there was something untoward about voting in contests, otherwise you would not have felt the need to ask the question, or repeatedly go on about not getting an answer. Sometimes you frame questions in, if not a directly accusatory way, an implicational manner, and then claim innocence. This is not the way to behave. The answer should now be obviously no, and so you can now please stop going on about it. Whether or not you take my answer is, of course, another question. And, if we are going on about behaviour, than if you say something that is obviously misunderstood by someone else, the correct way to address it is to perhaps recognise your own fallibility, apologise, and explain what you meant, rather than just keep shouting the same thing louder.

This site should be about art in the form that it takes here, that of desktop images. Belief systems should, in my view, be kept from the threads and descriptions of images since there are many who hold differing beliefs, sometimes at odds with others. Caedes is best served in a secular manner, and beliefs should never be used in an argument for or against site policy. (Cynlee, this is a general statement and not one that is directed specifically against you, so please to not take umbrage).

That is a downright attacking and haughty comment, Chris. Since you can make inferences about my motivations or imply hidden meanings to my questions and address folk so frequently in such a know it all fashion, I can only infer that you are setting yourself up to be the next mod.

Secularism is a 'belief system' so don't attempt to lecture me about using the word God when you have yourself posted pictures of churches and crosses and Caedes has a gallery for religious sites. That has to be the most hypocritical statement I have heard you utter.

That I repeatedly asked the question had more to do with the fact that I received no answer as is quite often the case here though I know sometimes the mods don't know the answers, in this instance they did and found more satisfaction in taking me to task than in just answering the question. In light of what other things happen behind the 'veil of secrecy', it was a perfectly legitimate question.

And if you want to profane my character, there are some things about your previous user status that wouldn't bear up to closer scrutiny, so stop calling the kettle black.

I'm an Agnostic myself...Self centered I know but there you go...R.

Actually secularism is not a belief system, agnosticism, atheism are, if a non belief can be classified as a belief system, but "Secularism is the separation of a government, organisation or institution from religion and/or religious beliefs."

As for being haughty, I merely point you to another thread, where I said something that was misunderstood by another member, mostly because I had worded it badly, and I apologised.

Lastly, the statements I made were general, and not an attack on you or anyone specifically, as I stated quite clearly in the post.

Actually Cynlee if I didn't care about this site I wouldn't have said my opinion.. as i said from what i've read you have been answered not only by Sam but also by Cat.. others have suggested things but it's obvious you don't seem to like the answers.. I can't believe how much anger and wasted energy there is in this discussion.. it's an art site for desktops maybe now would be a good time to get this anger and frustration and turn it into a masterpiece ;)

Inspiration. Let me see. Red, deep red, strong diagonal elements and deep dark recesses, with a chaotic texture to the main elements. Or perhaps a picture of a sheep. Who can tell.

(*checks gallery*)

Whew! No sheep here, wasn't referring to me..

... ...

... ..

Or, werrrrre.. you?

>.> ... <.< ... >.>

sounds like your feeling a bit sheepish there ;)

Belief in secularism is a belief system. 'Your' ideas are a belief system.

Several questions have been openly asked and openly answered to the best of everyone's abilities. Including stating that the answer is unknown. When the questions are asked again, by the same people, it can only be interpreted as a refusal to accept the answers that have been given. In that situation, people on all sides become frustrated.

Cindy, I am coming to believe that you truly do not understand how you "sound" in your writings. Please take it from me, in all sincerity, that you frequently come across as attacking, abrasive, and unwilling to consider any other viewpoint than your own. These come across in your usage of negatives "is it not so?" queries, your absolutism, and the many times that you ask a question and then assume an answer in the same post, and continue on as if the assumption was a valid answer that you had received or was the only possible answer to your question. These may be good "debate" tactics in "scoring points" and "winning", but they are very poor conversational tactics.

In addition, yes, conspiracy theories. To ask the question of whether or not the mods have the ability to change the contest results after the results are in, is to insult the mods by suggesting that they either have or would would do so. In fact it insults the very integrity of the owner of the site that he would make such a thing possible, and would allow the admin he has put in place to do so. If anyone truly questions the integrity of either the owner of the site, or the mods, they are free to bring it up with the owner of the site, and/or to leave. However, if they choose to pose insulting questions and respond with anger and rancor, they should expect to receive the same back. Along the lines of don't dish it if you can't take it.

I suspect that one of the consuls will shortly close this thread as I see nothing productive coming from this conversation.

It would be great if that could change.

Not wanting to get into the current philosophical discussion, I have something more pragmatic to insert here. I've been voting on Art Council images over the past several days and today there's an image that must have been pulled after the nomination. It appears only as an icon and I get the standard "it ain't here, dude" dialog when I look for it. However, there are three others in my job list to be voted on as well but, when I try to do that for any of these four I keep getting the "INTERNAL SERVER ERROR" message. So until somebody can figure it out and fix it, they'll just hang there in my job file.

(moments later)

Hmmm... It appears I can (and so now did) vote on the other three but that dead one is still hanging there with the same 'WARNING BILL ROBINSON--SERVER, SERVER, SERVER" message. (For those of you too young or too foreign to have watched Bill Mummy in Lost In Space, well... I have no short explanation for you, sorry.)

Try hitting abstain and see if that will get rid of it for you.

I tried that before I wrote that last comment. And I just went back and tried it again. It's as persistent as a politician.

lol, send *caedes a pm and let him know. That's gotta be something in the code that's an issue.

Will do, thanks.

a simple yes or no would have sufficed. coming into a thread is sometimes like walking into a lion's den. my intention was not to insult anyone's integrity. if that is what you suppose was my intention, then paranoia was at play.

@ Nik:

Seems to be occurring with other members as well. Received two PMs noting 'server errors' and the inability to clear the item(s) from their Jobs listings.

Solution seems to be.. give it some time (hey, even politicians take breaks now and then, particularly, if the voters have left the premises and there are no babies to kiss :oP).

Might be that the site's server(s) are playing catch up (caching and all of that stuff).


Still, and as Cat mentioned (and if it persists).. either PM *caedes or post to the "Feature Bloat / Bug Squash" forums.

Cindy, I did not say that was your intention, and to be honest, do not think it was. However, it is the result (separate from intent). Recognizing the result of our words and actions when separate from our intent is key in our ability to assess what we say and how, what reactions we might expect, and dealing with the unexpected reactions.

As far as paranoia being at play - do you think it's fair to say that the same statement could be made about such a question even being thought of in the first place?

No. I thought it was a sincere question because I knew the mods have the final say so in other areas of the site.

This discussion brings to mind a current song by The Living End (aussie bang)...

"The Ending is just the beginning repeating"... hehehehe

A rather lengthy list of images promoted this morning. Most of them were very nice, one or two a bit ordinary... the problem I see though is that at this rate the main galleries will soon double, triple and quadruple in size... and then keep going. Unless of course the nominations slow down, which might be the natural pattern. Wait and see, I guess...

I had 2 of my photos promoted today, thank you for those of you who voted for them. I do agree that this process will soon double, triple and quadruple in size which is not good. I had 6 images today to vote on for the AC but I hit abstain on all of them. I like the old way better, let the mods promote the images. Thank you Sam for directing this forum to a more positive flow, everyone settle down...

I think the AC can work in tandem with the image mods. It is a tiresome process to have to go through hundreds of images day after day picking out those to be promoted and most mods tire of this after a few months/years. In my mind the "prefect" system would be for the AC to pick out the potential images for the main galleries and then for the mods to edit these selections to a degree (how many would mainly depend on how many were being promoted in the first place; if fewer images were being promoted, very few would probably have to be removed - none in a ideal world). This would mean much less work for the mods, and much more community involvement in the process than if the mods were doing it themselves. Doing things this way also wouldn't require any changes to the system currently in place.

I realise that some people don't think this is the best way to do things but if there is one thing we should all have learned by now, it's that you definitely can't please everyone.

I agree with Sam 100% on this. The main gallery must be curated to be of great quality. If you think what you want is lots and lots of fairly nice images then just let it run unattended. Before long it will be bland, repetitive and significantly less than the intended - "best of the best".

Keep in mind experience counts. Many images I would have nominated instantly five years ago I would easily dismiss today. Some glaring flaws are not so obvious to the inexperienced eye.
Of course "great art" may be elusive to some as well.

I would rather see a "Gallery Pending" splash screen in the Main gallery then 1 "just ok" image in there.

Firstly a good crop of images and nicely varied. Some quality issues on one or two but I expect these can be weed out later.

What I am about to say is objective, however, I know I am going to get slaughtered for it, but here goes.

The current mechanism of the Art Council is a classic positive feedback system that will select and maintain certain types of image. In order to get onto the council to vote you have to select images that the council agrees with, and in order to maintain your vote you have to agree with the decisions of the majority of the council. If you vote against the council you loose your voting rights, and if you nominate images that are not sanctioned by the council you will not get onto the council.

Some time ago, when the AC was first put in place, I seem to remember there being a discussion thread about the lack of variety coming through to the Main Gallery. I suspect that this will happen again with the images less popular with the membership, but nevertheless valid and good desktop images, being marginalised.

I hope this will not be the case, but we shall see.

"I thought it was a sincere question because I knew the mods have the final say so in other areas of the site."


Let's straighten out a couple of things.. firstly, the term 'image mods' came into the light as Caedesian slang (kind of, sort of).

The 'image mods' are from "The Praetor Assembly"

"The Praetors are members of the Caedes.net Senate. Members of the Praetor Assembly are responsible for the maintenance of the artistic and cultural identity of the society. They administrate the art galleries, including the approval of visiting art exhibits (new image uploads) as well as the selection of artwork for the permanent collections. They also are charged with organizing periodic contests and entertainment events (used to be)."

*caedes has indicated and as noted on other discussion threads by the mods themselves.. that he does not want the Praetors to interfere with the Art Council selections/promotions.


Touched on here and again, in other discussion threads, are thoughts/opinions as to how the Art Council and Praetors could possibly work in conjunction with one another.

Some say.. leave the Art Council alone as an independent and fully functioning group of members.

Some say.. a guiding hand by the Praetors would be a good good thing.


Going back to the first quoted sentence of this post.. the final 'say so' rests with *caedes. As it does with everything else on this site.


Example, *caedes instructs to allow/approve any and all images.. save that of those that contravene the CoC.

Some of the Praetors disagreed at that time.

Current practice, on this note.. all images get approved.

(So, you know.. he really has gone mad with power. :oP)


Images being promoted by the Art Council.

Not touching them with the proverbial ten-foot pole.

In short, I've not been instructed to do so ... quite the opposite. So, stay they shall and whatever happens as a result.. beyond my scope.


If that means only the 'popular' artists get their images promoted?

Beyond my scope of duties.


If that means that several images that are similar get promoted?

Beyond my scope of duties.


If that means that some images get overlooked, because, the Art Council has passed them up?

Well, that I can do something about.


Quoting, *caedes hisownself;

"So the problem is that we must choose these reference images out of the pool of ~100 images that are uploaded to the site every day. Furthermore, we must admit to ourselves that any such choice is going to be based on extremely subjective evaluations of each image. So it is impossible to have a "perfect" system. My objective is to only create a fair system which is good enough at picking out exemplary images. It will never be perfect."

*caedes must believe that he can quantify and/or adjust the parameters of the Art Council to accomplish a fair enough selection and system.


Tired of all the bickering, public slams, hypocrisy from those that seek help on some occasions, only to turn around and slap my cheek in other situations.


'Les's (to do and contend with) will indeed mean more for me.

More enjoyment of the site, more time to actually work on some art.

End of story for me.


"Plus ça change, plus c'est la méme chose."

- Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr.

I have posted some thoughts elsewhere which may be relevant to this subject. It is simply a suggestion - and hope it will be seen as such

Selection Suggestion

LE :)

I'm not certain if my assumption is correct but I believe that if you submit images with the voting feature turned off, not only do your images get very little play in the general membership, they stand no chance of being nominated to viewing and selection by the Art Council. It's the price one pays for not wanting their images trashed by the voting process. Only a handful of people end up seeing your submissions.

Seems to me that is a loss to the site because many good things will languish 'at the back'. If more chose to not submit their images to the VB, the whole thing would become completely unbalanced and the VB would become moot.

Hmmmm... I wrote something as an explanation but then, realizing it would be misinterpreted, removed it. So ignore this comment and go on with your discussion of the Art Council.

I for one try to go through the new images to see what has been posted. CI does not come into it. Since many of my images that have made the main gallery have quite a low CI anyway, I am probably aware of how little the CI counts anyway, Perhaps others are more enamoured with the CI as a mark of quality.

Nikoneer, I would say that in part, that depends on how much of a network one has here. Those who have wider circles of "Friends" who are notified of new uploads are also going to get greater exposure. The VB is useful for stumbling across stuff, but I don't think it adds a lot for those people who are looking through the new images gallery regularly in addition to their friends lists.

Just a quick question.. is anyone posting fractals, graphics etc? is anyone even looking at them? because out of all the images I have had for the Art Council I've seen 3 other than photos.. just curious.. I'm enjoying seeing all the great photos coming through but there have been a few "ordinary" ones getting through

I still do once in a while.

Go nominate some J!

(PS I fixed that bold - thing on your profiel)

I will when I get a chance.. and what bold thing on my profile didn't even know it was.. lol

Someone didn't close their "bold" script properly so all the comments following it were in bold.

ahh ok thanks for that

I'm pretty new to Caedes, so I don't know what it means when you see ART COUNCIL in red on someone's main page. Could you explain it to me?

It means that you can nominate the image for promotion to the main galleries. Nominating sends it to the Art Council for a vote.

It says this under the rules for the Art Council:

Art Council or Caedes Senate members nominate the image for consideration by the Art Council. This is achieved by using a button on the main page for a given image.
19 Art Council members decide whether to include the nominated image in the permanent gallery.

If this is so, where is it written please, that a Senate Member can bypass the AC and promote anything they want immediately?
Thank you.

Mods can nominate an image for Art Council voting and might do so because either they are ambivalent about an image, or want to put an image in that they want members to see as a good example of what they feel is an image that is worthy of the main galleries.

However, image mods also have the ability to promote directly, and to move images into appropriate galleries, etc. This responsibility and authority precedes that of the Art Council and has not been rescinded with the creation of the AC.

The responsibility for this is laid out in the description of what mods do which is laid out here and the authority to do so because the Praetor Maximus (aka *caedes) has given us these capabilities.

So, in essence, what you are saying is that it is not really spelled out for all to see. At least, that is what I glean from what you said above and what is written in the link you provided. If there are any changes made to the AC as appears evident are necessary by the responses to the poll regarding the AC, maybe spelling out that mods can do this so it is clealy written and easy to find is a step toward that goal.

Let's keep this to one thread please. I'll answer here since it is more relevant here.

Previously it didn't need spelling out, and some stuff is obviously overlooked/in flux. Best place to make this kind of suggestion would be either the Feature Bloat/Bug Squash forum, or the "What to put in the FAQs" thread in this forum.

I thought it was a good suggestion for the AC poll changes. First you tell me to use only the appropriate thread and now you want me to start a new one. I am confused.

I'm sorry there is confusion. This thread has to do with the function of the art council, and seemed more relevant to discussing the interaction of the art council and the moderators' responsibilities. The other thread addresses changes that people feel need to be made to the art council, and how it functions.

There is no necessity to start a new thread for your suggestion, but it may gain more attention in the Feature Bloat forum, so I put that out there as an option, since it is an actual suggestion, rather than part of question and clarification and opinion discussion.