The main galleries seem to be quickly filling up with the same sorts of images... out of 36 images on the first page, 22 are landscape photographs; mainly mountains, lakes and waterfalls. Obviously these type of shots are very appealing but do we really want the main galleries to be so repetitive? Landscapes aren't the only type of shot that seems to be over represented either... if you throw in flowers, butterflies and hummingbirds there seems to be little else that is being nominated/promoted. Out of those same 36 images, there are only 9 that do not fall into the categories listed above.

Remember that the mains are supposed to show examples of EXCEPTIONAL imagery... if you are nominating several shots of mountains, waterfalls and butterflies a month, can those shots really be called exceptional? (and I do think that the responsibility really lies at the nomination stage, more than the voting, though perhaps people do need to be more discriminating with what they are saying yes to there also).

The AC has been in place long enough now that I think it has moved beyond the trial stage and we need to decide whether it is going to continue in this vein or whether we are going to up the stakes in terms of what is exceptional and what is just "very good"... it doesn't actually bother me that much if the majority decides that it is working fine as it is (since I don't really look much any more) but it seems a shame for the site if the mains just become a ho-hum collection of "nice" photographs...

Lyn - I see what you are trying to show me. Looking at things in a different way. You are exactly correct. BUT! I view 36 images per page multiplied by 423 pages. That means there are 15,238 images that I would love to see. I dont want to be discouraged from seeing them all buy viewing multiple pictures of the same type. I am tickled by your efforts to persuade me to see things different. Thank You, But I think 15,238 images are 14,238 too many. I think its kinda like viewing all the people in a sports stadium. Each person is unique and different, but to see so many people in one spot, they soon start to look all the same. :)
P.S. - I love all the comments, but my wife is yelling at me to get off my azz! quit playing on the computer, and to "Go Mow the Yard!" I have been married long enough to understand that if my wife is not happy, she will make darn sure that No-one is happy.....especially Me!

Yes, I understand what you mean Moose - but 17 different categories (types) are not multiple pictures of the same type, and I doubt many viewers would troll through 15,238 pages.
Anyone not wanting to see landscapes can simply choose the category they want - abstract, space, manipulations, city, skies or whatever.

As I said a few days ago " In the New Images Photography Landscape Gallery there are 17 pages (204 images), 13 pages of flowers and just two of still life and bridges(16 images). 4 sunset/sunrise and 1 Food & Drink"

The current situation of over representation may simply be because there are more landscapes being posted. More care taken in nomination selection could prevent 'almost' duplicate images - or image mods could remove them when they make the promotions. To prevent members getting upset the notification that an image has been promoted would need to be delayed before the final selection - that particular 'gripe' has already been well aired in the past.

Now if landscapes were banned and we all posted abstracts, or food, or bridges - anything but landscapes the problem would be self solving - except that an enormous portion of photographers who enjoy capturing landscapes would be up in arms !! And a lot of excellent images would not be posted.

:) Cutting down the Main Galleries to 1000 images would mean that the rest of the (current) 148,021 images would be buried and largely be unseen. Visitors tend to view Main Galleries first rather than New Images. There are 1560 New Images right now but each one stays there only for a month when it either retreats to personal galleries or gets promoted. I think the more good images there are in Main Galleries the better the site is represented - BUT -they do have to be GOOD images - exceptional images, and I think that is more important than whether they are landscapes or one-winged ladybirds.
It is the quality that counts in the end, not the type, or the number of each type.

It is up to those nominating and voting on images to look further afield than their own preferred genres and ensure it is quality that is being promoted rather than their own personal tastes. I would rather have a mediocre landscape on my desktop than perfect car, or a spider, or an alligator but that does not prevent me from recognizing a good spider when I see one and I would nominate it if I considered it worthy, and I would not nominate the mediocre image.
But I would not nominate it simply because it was a spider if it were a poor spider image, if there were 2 competing excellent landscapes to consider.The main galleries would benefit more from a good landscape than a poor spider even if there are just 28 pages of Insects/Spiders and 113 pages of landscapes.

Challenge ....Post more spiders - it may even out in time :)

Start over

Lyn - only hours ago I survived a battle with natures small creatures, BUGS. As my plump butt bounced happily on the grass cutting machine,bugs eyes got big with thoughts of taking a bite outa my bum. Poison Ivy, not wishing to be ignored, tried their darnedest to rub on my sensitive skin. Dust kicked up by the the ultra fast whirring grass cutting blades, tried to choke me, and the powerful Sun tried to roast me. But I survived.

Now feeling refreshed and in a positive mood, knowing that I have once again soothed the demanding personality I dearly call my wife, I sat down to play on the computer. I wondered where to look first, then I thought - What could have possibly happened on the Discussion Board? . . . LynEve happened. Lyn you are a dear sweet woman. The virtue I like the most about you also makes me want to bang my head against the wall "You try your darnedest to be fair and give everyone a chance"
I respectfully disagree with your last sentence "Post more spiders - it may even out in time " posting spiders is OK, but I am an ole man, I dont have the time to wait for things to even out. Thats why I would like to see changes made in my lifetime. We cannot control what is posted or nominated, but we can control what we keep.. . . .. . .. . .Oh Rats! I was trying so hard not to be offensive but yet make my point, that I forgot where I was going to take this discussion too. Darn, I hate when that happens.
OK Lyn, until I can remember the point I wished to express, would you please excuse my challenge, and allow me to continue it at a late time?
I probbably need to be fed from that hard fought battle with Nature. I shall return. . . :)

"Look at things a different way - view Main Galleries All Works- there are 1267 pages - Randomly. I just viewed the first 6 pages and there is a wonderful variety of images. On the first page alone (12 images) ten different categories are represented.

Pages one and two (24 images) - 17 categories and 2 contest entries. Just 4 landscapes."


'Randomly' being the operative word.

Because.. the Praetors (not me, haven't been doing this long enough) took the time that I feel/think/believe is necessary to sort and view the existing galleries when considering promoting an image.


Sort the Main Galleries by date..

And it is very obvious that there are many more landscape images being promoted over any other type/kind/genre of imagery.

In time.. if unabated/mitigated (the current nomination and promotion trend, if you will) ... even viewed 'Randomly' this category will become more prominent than desired by some that have expressed their views in this discussion thread.

Does it matter to 'you'?


"I would rather have a mediocre landscape on my desktop.."

Not me.

Would keep my exceptional one till I found a newer exceptional one that pleased my eyes.


'I nominate, therefore.. I promote.'

Seems to me that this is at the roots of the current situation. Given the options of nominating and promoting.. members simply ... do.

Will that change?

Doubt it.

Have to rely on *caedes tweaking things (selection of Art Council members/nominations/promotions), I suppose.

And NO.. the image mods/Praetors will not be doing any culling/thinning/removing of any imagery promoted by the AC.


Strange/weird proposal.. members doing the culling/thinning/removing of less than exceptional imagery and/or duplicate/similar images promoted ... themselves.

See an image of your own that makes you go/think.. 'welll, I don't feel that this is one of my best.' PM an image mod/Praetor ... and we will edit it for you, so that it remains viewable in your personal galleries.

I shall start us off on this note..

"Balancing Act" ... removed from the Main Galleries. Conceptually, I like it ... technically, falls way short.

"Portal" ... removed from the Main Galleries. Decent and different, however ... not exceptional.

""The Silmarillion"" .... removed from the Main Galleries. Technically it has a number of shortcomings. I might 'rework' this one and re-post it, as I am proud of this fractal. Just not so much as is.

... ...

... ...

Right, forgot.. image mods/Praetors can't edit/promote their own.

Would someone do me and the site a flavour here?



p.s. Moose.. you are my hero. And, more importantly ... your words make me laugh and smile. I wish I had your gifts of intelligence, insight and wit. :o)

Bit of a pain that, isn't it... I have "demoted" them for you. Bit of a nuisance that members can't remove their own images (except by deleting them, I guess... but then I suppose it must always have been that way??)

Poll results so far indicate a strong support for changes to the AC... but only 13 people have voted thus far, so I don't think it can be called a reliable indication.

PS Pastureeyes and Lyneve: We will be continuing to occasionally trim down the permenant galleries as we have always done in the past. At the moment I tend to start at the back (ie the oldest images) and work my way backward. But we can only spend so much time doing this. It would be far better if the images that were promoted in the first place were of such a standard that they didn't require us to come back in 6 months and remove those which are not up to par. To my mind it is not so much about numbers; I agree that it is fine to have any number of images in the mains, as long as they all reflect an exceptional standard, but by the very definition you can't have 100 images that all look similar and call every one of them exceptional. Our job as image moderators was to attempt to examine images closely, look for some small flaw in one that did not exist in the other, and choose only the best for the main galleries, and the AC should be doing the same. IMO that isn't happening enough at the moment.

Thanks, Sam.. appreciate your time. :o)


And Sam puts forth an important clarification on the note of 'spring cleaning' the Main Galleries, as it has some times been referred to in the past ... that of removing older imagery that no longer stand up to the litmus test of quality.

I simply meant, that no removal of images promoted in the short term (and I am not talking weeks here, much longer than that) by the Art Council will be undertaken by the image mods/Praetors.


"The Praetor Assembly

The Praetors are members of the Caedes.net Senate. Members of the Praetor Assembly are responsible for the maintenance of the artistic and cultural identity of the society. They administrate the art galleries, including the approval of visiting art exhibits (new image uploads) as well as the selection of artwork for the permanent collections. They also are charged with organizing periodic contests and entertainment events."

(/\ From the Site Information pages.)

So, 'we' are curators of sorts as defined by our roles/positions.

Link to Poll.

Les - my whole statement was
"I would rather have a mediocre landscape on my desktop than perfect car, or a spider, or an alligator but that does not prevent me from recognizing a good spider when I see one and I would nominate it if I considered it worthy, and I would NOT nominate the mediocre image."

NOT "I would rather have a mediocre landscape on my desktop"

. . .simply because I have no interest in cars (although I have posted some), alligators scare me and spider bites have caused me to require hospital treatment on more than one ocassion.



Taken our of context the way you did gives it a very different meaning. If you read all I have written it will become clear that I am not disagreeing with the original concept that there too many landscapes being promoted. In the long run you as image mods have control over what is and is not promoted and all we can do is our best to nominate what we think are worthy images, based on quality, not on personal preferences.

'I nominate, therefore.. I promote.' makes no sense to me - I nominate and others vote and decide the outcome.

I agree wholeheartedly with Sam - there needs to be more discernment used in nominations.
Unfortunately each and every member of the enormous AC probably do not have the skills to examine each and every image offered to vote on for minor flaws and compare with other similar images ....and also we only see the ones offered and there could be 3 other similar ones that we are not aware of until they actually appear in the Main Galleries. As I understand it Image Mods are the only only ones that see a new batch of promotions in its entirety and are able to spot similar images, so I do not see why they can not exercise their privileges and cull them before promotion.

As you said Sam "It would be far better if the images that were promoted in the first place were of such a standard that they didn't require us to come back in 6 months and remove those which are not up to par." . . so catch them at the start and save having to do that!

Well I would, but we're not really supposed to, plus it upsets too many people.

On a side note; the last big "spring clean" was in '04 and removed just over 1000 images from the mains, according to some old discussions. Caused quite a few ruffled feathers at the time too.

Moose - lol please do not post more spiders - and please do not damage any brick walls.

Sam - if you were able to and did cull images before bunging them in the Main Galleries people would not be upset if they did not know i.e. had not been notified of promotions that did not happen . . . . . but previous discussions have already been there.

Les - you said
"And it is very obvious that there are many more landscape images being promoted over any other type/kind/genre of imagery."
I am sure everyone would agree with that
but . . . Just as I pointed out earlier in this discussion it is also very obvious there are more landscape images to select from than any other type/kind/genre. In photography Landscapes 17 pages, followed by Flowers 14 pages, then a big drop to 7 pages and lower for everything else.
Abstract has 9 pages.
Surely it follows there will be more promotions from larger groups?
Even with my limited almost non existent mathematical abilities that seems likely.


I am not claiming that all nominations are worthy by the standards expected by Image mods (but who is to say what is, we all see things differently) or that there does not appear to be a sameness about many landscapes but perhaps that could apply to other categories as well - to some a rose is a rose and they all look the same - but not if one is interested enough to stop and look properly.

As there are more landscapes selected now than pre-AC it would suggest that AC members favour landscapes more than the previous selectors did, or it is just a reflection of the number of images available to chose from in each category ?
Unless there is some change in the way images are selected for promotion there does not seem to be much can be done, other than to keep emphasizing they should be 'exceptional'

My conscience is clear anyway - as far as not favouring landscapes above others goes. Since 11/11/10 I have had 11 of my nominations promoted - which is almost all of them I think. I miss out on nominating many images because due to the time difference the ones I may have selected are already nominated,( and many of them are Landscapes )- but even without factoring that in I am not a prolific nominator. Those 11 consist of one each in Castles, Manipulation, Mountains, Sunset/rise, Shorelines, Flowers, Birds, Waterfalls, Abstract, Illustrations-digital - and one Landscape, Sandstone Arch which I believe everyone would consider 'Exceptional'

So ....I may just keep on nominating and voting as I always have . . . and I suspect everyone else will also, because if participation is an indication of interest then not many members appear to be showing much in the subject of this thread.

Perhaps a message of the front page news encouraging the promotion of excellence may draw attention - or a pm to every AC member reminding us of our obligations.

"... because if participation is an indication of interest then not many members appear to be showing much in the subject of this thread."

One stronger indication of interest is the number of people who have voted in the poll put up by Sam.

Total: 21 ... as of this writing here.


"'I nominate, therefore.. I promote.'

Seems to me that this is at the roots of the current situation. Given the options of nominating and promoting.. members simply ... do."

What I was trying to get across.. is that members need not promote images simply because.. they can.

What I was hoping to get across.. is that members show a little more discernment in their nominating choices. (It would appear from your posts above, Lyn, that you would be in agreement on this.)


On the linked page to voting on a nominated image is a message, that encourages members to visit the member/artist's galleries ... aside from the nominated image's page itself. This, with respect to, I believe ... avoiding too many 'similar' or images 'similar' that may not be the most outstanding out of the group from a single shoot ... from being promoted. (To name one reason.)

On this note, I am curious as to how many do just that.

Perhaps, they do.

However, if most of the other activities (commenting being the primary one) on site is an indication ... I am thinking ... maybe not.


"Unless there is some change in the way images are selected for promotion there does not seem to be much can be done, other than to keep emphasizing they should be 'exceptional'."

My thinking?

As stated in an above post..

"Have to rely on *caedes tweaking things (selection of Art Council members/nominations/promotions), I suppose."

"Unfortunately each and every member of the enormous AC.."

/\ Intriguing observation.


Where does, or how did.. this thought originate, if I may ask?

Total number of PMs received, requesting an image be 'demoted': 0 ... as of this writing here.

:oP

I just asumed the AC was 'enormous' (perhaps large would have been a better word to use) based on the criteria for inclusion

"Voting Art Council members are selected based on the following criteria:
Must have previously served as an associate Art Council member
Must have nominated one or more works to the Art Council
Must have had at least 40% of the nominated works accepted by the Art Council"

I am unsure what the first one means really (associate AC member?)but understood anyone could nominate an image and provided 40% are successful they are therefore AC members.

Judging by the number of nominations it seems many are using their privilege of nomination - so that is where my observation/thought originated - I would be delighted to have things clarified and would be most interested to know just how many AC members there actually are. Is it in fact enormous, and are the 21 votes in the poll a large or small percentage of that total?

"Total number of PMs received, requesting an image be 'demoted': 0 ... as of this writing here."
LOL, don't think you should hold your breath

Art Council Changes - by caedes 12/02/11 22:34

"Over the past month, 245 images have been nominated to the Art Council and 38% of those were approved by the Art Council. There have been about 100 voting Art Council members this month."


More Art Council Changes - by caedes 21/11/10 13:43

"We are continuing to refine the Art Council process. I have recorded most of the changes on this page. Basically, we are adding further incentive for the Art Council members to be more critical and careful when nominating and (in particular) when voting on images to go in the main galleries. Currently there are about 135 voting Art Council members after we kicked out everyone who wasn't taking the process seriously."


Looks like approximately 100+ in the past. (Give or take.)


'Associate Art Council' member..

"Artists who have succeeded in getting one or more of their works included in the main galleries are associate Art Council members. Associate members can nominate new images for the Art Council selection process."

Although, now.. the information/criteria set out on the Site Information page about the Art Council may need to be updated/changed somewhat ... in light of some recent observations.


(*goes back to wait by inbox.. for the enormou.. ... erhm, 'large' flood of PM requests*)

... ...

... ...

(*retrieves "War and Peace" to occupy time*)

Link to Poll.

Feel free to add suggestions via the discussion at the above linked page/poll.

25/07/10 - 4/09/11 ... 1018 images promoted by the Art Council.

So.. 1018 in just over twelve (12) months, more or less.

Breaking it down some.. eighty-five (85) images per month. Almost.. three (3) 'exceptional' images a day.


Could be a bit misleading looking at the raw numbers, though.

As I don't think.. regardless of how many images per day, per month are uploaded has any bearing ... or should have any bearing, on the number of promotions.


Little difficult to control for all the variables, however.. might be interesting to know, relatively and comparatively speaking ... how many images were promoted by the image mods/Praetors acting without the Art Council.

Has the AC really been running for 12 months?? That must include the fairly lengthy break we had in between right?

24 votes so far... I wonder if that is enough to give a good indication of what the "regular" members think?

I am quite surprised at the results, I thought most would go for the minor and major change options, and not many would vote for removing the AC altogether...

I think maybe we will have to develop some compromise where the AC continues to function as normal but mods are doing a lot more editing of the results? What do people think of this? Ideally I am looking for a solution that does not require any additional programming (it would also be nice to think that we developed a solution entirely among the membership, rather than having to rely on Geri to sort it out...)

THIS is my suggestion as an alternative compromise.
No idea if it requires programing

If it requires a change to the AC system itself, it requires programming.

Something like having the mods occasionally reveiw the main gallery and manually remove images would be an example of something that doesn't require any changes to the way the AC currently works. Another example might be using the poll system (which already exists) to nominate images and then have the mods remove those images manually would be another example.

Most of the suggestions I have seen from members; allowing artists to nominate only their own images, reducing the number of nomiations allowed, having a longer delay between nominating and voting so that mods could remove duplicates before they hit the voting booth etc; require changes that only Geri could make. So whilst people are certainly welcome to make these types of suggestions, we wouldn't be able to actually implement any of them...

"Something like having the mods occasionally reveiw the main gallery and manually remove images would be an example of something that doesn't require any changes to the way the AC currently works"

I thought that happened already??

I doubt any regular member would feel comfortable nominating images for removal. But I concede I may be wrong.
Room for trouble -"Who suggested my image be removed - how dare they - who do they think they are - come forward and be counted" etc etc ad neauseum. The way it is now anyone can 'blame' only the image mods - there is no suspicion generated. There should be no blame anyway - moderating is what they are expected to do, and to my mind moderating includes spring cleaning.

Surely everyone accepts that spring cleaning in necessary periodically to make room for newer images.IMO that task should be left to the image moderators.

I just had a quick look through a few random pages of Main Gallery images - I picked out 2 that from my perspective do not belong there - interesting that both were older images selected before the AC came into being. I am sure any other member doing the same would chose different ones.

If most of the suggestions are unable to be implemented . . . .not much point in suggesting them and we may as well get on with things the way they are if they can not be changed to any great degree.

ATM we are not removing images that have been promoted by the AC, only older ones that were there before the AC existed. This is due to people becoming upset when we were doing so. The main reason people gave for not wanting this to happen is that they could not see the point of the AC if we were going to then remove images that the AC was promoting.

Based on the poll, I see three possibilities; one, people have changed their minds and now want the mods to intervene; two, the complainants were a "vocal minority" and did not actually represent what most people wanted; or three, the poll results are innacurate and people actually want the status quo to continue.

:) I never changed my mind - I always thought they should,and that the AC should be an advisory group.
I guess I was one that became upset - but not because images were vetoed just that they were notified as being promoted when they never made it.
So at present you are actually removing images that you yourselves originally promoted independently ?

First 2 pages of mains LOOK LOOK LOOK very similar.A better solution to the problem might be as simple as AC do a better job from the start.

+tbob, it takes very little time to find other pages containing similar images - promotions made long before the AC came into being, so it is nothing new, and not something peculiar to the AC method of selection.
Does not make any of the images less worthy anyway.

One

Two

Three

Four

Five

Six

We are not just talking about promoting similar images though, these are three photos of the same building by the same artist uploaded and promoted in the same few days. And there are other clear examples in the first few pages.

When the mods were promoting we would have taken more care to make sure this sort of thing didn't happen. I think tbob has simply given an example of the sort of thing that the people who took the poll are concerned about.

Yes, point taken. . . "these are three photos of the same building by the same artist uploaded and promoted in the same few days."
Likewise there are three photos of the same eagle by the same artist posted over 2 days in one of my examples. But, no matter . . . .

It really is a bit difficult at times - saying we should do a better job from the start - i.e. check for duplicates etc is not always that easy - I think I gave reasons earlier on.

I actually did not get any of those similar images to vote on. If I had got one I would have voted yes. At a time if I have filled my nominations quota the AC button is not visible on any image, so no way of checking if there were other similar ones nominated for up to a week. The three images were posted over a three day period so it is likely they were all nominated around the same time by different people and all were voted on by different voters over the same period, so what way is there to prevent it from happening ?
It is a concern perhaps but AC members are being told they should do a better job without explaining how, given the circumstances.
How do we take more care?

When the mods were promoting you could take more care because it was a much simpler process.There was no voting - no period of 'being in the dark' about what had been put up for consideration. And there were fewer of you - so you could also consult with each other.

In cases where several such images end up being promoted by the AC I think you could simply contact the artist and ask them to choose which one they would like included.
Wouldn't take long :)

A good start might be to look at the first few pages of the main gallery and see what's there before nominating something.The would be the very least amount of effort I would recommend digging deeper.I glad you posted above cause thats a really good example of how AC should do before nominating.
AC is the first step in getting into the main gallery.The reason the AC was created to begin with was to take the responsibility off the mods,so if the mods have to actually do what the AC was designed to do then what is the point of the AC?

I would imagine most members would do that at the very least - look at the first few pages of the Main Galleries, but that does not address the similar images by the same artist question to any great extent. If they are similar they have most likely been posted about the same time and will be nominated and voted on at the same time and for some of that time it not always possible to know what has been acted on -- oh I give up.

The AC is not the first step in getting into the Main Gallery - it is the only step as we were told in this discussion there is currently no intervention by Image Mods. So in fact they have no say, and do not have to do what the AC was designed to do.

Quoting +purmusic "And NO.. the image mods/Praetors will not be doing any culling/thinning/removing of any imagery promoted by the AC."

Quoting =Samatar "ATM we are not removing images that have been promoted by the AC, only older ones that were there before the AC existed."

The AC members are doing what they are asked to do.


I think :)

Lyn, you are aware that by linking to randomly sorted pages.. that the images on those pages will, in fact, change daily and hourly to an extent?

So..

Any followup comments by you, or anyone for that matter.. referencing any imagery on those pages linked by you will be.. null and void in a matter of a few hours (no one will be able to follow and make sense of what is being written/said, in short.. in a few hours, in a day).



"The AC is not the first step in getting into the Main Gallery - it is the only step as we were told in this discussion there is currently no intervention by Image Mods. So in fact they have no say, and do not have to do what the AC was designed to do."

Incorrect.


"Quoting +purmusic "And NO.. the image mods/Praetors will not be doing any culling/thinning/removing of any imagery promoted by the AC."

Quoting =Samatar "ATM we are not removing images that have been promoted by the AC, only older ones that were there before the AC existed."

Correct, of course.

But.. your first statements are not supported by the above quotes and are misleading.


From another discussion;

"Images being promoted by the Art Council.

Not touching them with the proverbial ten-foot pole.

In short, I've not been instructed to do so ... quite the opposite. So, stay they shall and whatever happens as a result.. beyond my scope.


If that means only the 'popular' artists get their images promoted?

Beyond my scope of duties.


If that means that several images that are similar get promoted?

Beyond my scope of duties.


If that means that some images get overlooked, because, the Art Council has passed them up?

Well, that I can do something about."



However.. you bring up a very important and salient point to the discussion at hand.

"The first step.."

That of.. the time frames in which the current images residing in the Main Galleries have been nominated and then, promoted within.


In short.. too short.


I don't quite see what the rush is all about.

And in reading some of the suggestions being made on the poll's discussion page (and elsewhere, here on this discussion page for example).. again, there are references to the process being time consuming.

Which would necessitate bookmarking an image that 'you' would like to nominate ... but, couldn't, because 'you' used up your alloted number of nominations ... and having to go back after a week's time and then nominating it.

Is that too much to ask, when 'we'.. Art Council and Praetors are being asked to consider promoting the 'best of the best'?

I don't think so.


From the poll's discussion page;

"Generally, before I nominate an image to the AC I will downlaod the image I'm considering to nominate & place it on my desktop for 3 - 4 days. This way it gives me a better feel of how it will work as a desktop not just for myself but for visitors searching for a desktop. Subject doesn't play a part in my decisions. Sometimes I may nominate it & sometimes not.

Personally I only nominate 1 or 2 images in a 3 week time span to be considered & voted on by the AC."

Now that is one conscientious Art Council member.


First post to this discussion, following the initial one by Sam;

::dreamer100:

"I find it helpful while looking at the nominees to do some scouting through the main galleries or, for a named place or species, a quick wallpaper search to see if this is the most exciting, emotive thingamajig of its type. A lot of whats being presented when I open my jobs, while a great addition to an artists individual gallery, don't have that dynamic quality that makes them exemplary. Some in the main galleries don't have it either."

More conscientious decision making/consideration by an Art Council member.


"The AC members are doing what they are asked to do."

Wellll.. some are doing a better job then (*points to the two directly above quoted sections*). Simply put.


Lyn, your suggestion?

No.

The voting aspect is in place to try and ensure that favouritism does not raise it's head all too often. Voting being a check and balance on the nominations. As those voting will be (hopefully) different from those that nominated an image.

If, only garnering a certain amount of nominations led to an image being promoted.. (*takes a look at the Main Galleries*) ... things would be worse than what is happening at the current time.


The process should be somewhat involved and time consuming, in my humble opinion.

Not.. shortcuts to the Main Galleries.

Lyn, you are aware that by linking to randomly sorted pages.. that the images on those pages will, in fact, change daily and hourly to an extent?

So..

Any followup comments by you, or anyone for that matter.. referencing any imagery on those pages linked by you will be.. null and void in a matter of a few hours (no one will be able to follow and make sense of what is being written/said, in short.. in a few hours, in a day).
-------------------------------------------------------------
Les, clarification - the pages I linked to were NOT sorted RANDOMLY they were sorted by DATE. They appear as random by default when linked - all you need to do is change sorting to DATE for that page. Try it and you will see the pages were relevant, and do in fact prove a point at present, but the pages will change as more images are added and they move down the list. Page 93 has already flicked over to 94.
_______________________________________________
"The AC members are doing what they are asked to do."

Wellll.. some are doing a better job then (*points to the two directly above quoted sections*). Simply put
______________________________________________________
Yes agreed - they are being consciencious. I believe I am also but you make it quite clear you do not include my efforts by your remarks. Simply put indeed.



Further, I agree - I don't see there should be any rush.
In self defence - I have nominated (I think, can not be entirely sure) less than a dozen images since last November (already stated ) and each one is tested on my desktop first. As is each one I vote on before deciding yes or no.

Further - as to my suggestion. No - ok.
I do not see that 20 nominations would create favouritism any more than 20 votes would. You could perhaps have pointed that out five weeks ago when I first posted the suggestion though.

As for the time consuming issue - no not too much to ask. I guess how much time one takes over the whole procedure comes into it to a degree.

What ever quotes you are referring to that I misled people by I can not work out - sorry. I was simply replying to tbob.

Over and out.

As far as the "non-editing" of AC promoting images goes, that is pretty much what this discussion is about; whether it should continue, or whether the mods should in fact start to intervene.

The concensus thus far seems very clearly to be that people do in fact want us to intervene.

I think the next step is to try to establish how this intervention will work. Since changing the system is really not a viable option (as it is not something anyone who has taken part in this discussion has influence over) this, as far as I can see, must basically involve the mods manually removing selected images from the main galleries. Things to consider might be, should there be a time limit on removing images (ie should there be a mandatory period for which images promoted by the AC remain in the main galleries); should there be a minimum target, or a maximum limit to images removed; should there be some sort of nomination process (such as an anonymous poll) so that other members can recommend images for removal... etc.

PLEASE BE CLEAR that this is still just a theoretical discussion at this point. As I have received no feedback from Geri at this point, and his prior instructions that we were not to remove images promoted by the AC were quite clear, I will not be implementing anything that requires such action until I have his approval. But I do want to develop a clear process first, so that there is no confusion if such a system is implemented, and the way it works is understood by everyone.

If anyone has any other suggestions please make them known, then in a day or two I might set up another poll with various options so that we can establish what the most popular ideas are.

"My conscience is clear anyway - as far as not favouring landscapes above others goes. Since 11/11/10 I have had 11 of my nominations promoted - which is almost all of them I think. I miss out on nominating many images because due to the time difference the ones I may have selected are already nominated,( and many of them are Landscapes )- but even without factoring that in I am not a prolific nominator. Those 11 consist of one each in Castles, Manipulation, Mountains, Sunset/rise, Shorelines, Flowers, Birds, Waterfalls, Abstract, Illustrations-digital - and one Landscape."

Yet one more example (and I have many more via PMs) of conscientious consideration where the tasks of the Art Council are concerned.

Interesting discussion.....

Total number of PMs received, requesting an image be 'demoted': 2 ... as of this writing here.

PM to all moderators. Please put everything I have done in the perms. I am sure they belong there. 8•P

(okay, no I don't, in reality there's only one thing I think should be in the perms that isn't, but still, I'm awesome, so it should all go in!)

*sigh* Sometimes it sucks trying to be a responsible adult when I'm so clearly a brat in adult clothing. I think I'll go make something else awesome. Oooh. Just noticed. While I generally get all arted out at work, I think some of my cooking and ideas there count as art. Like taking a chocolate & peanut butter pudding parfait recipe and deciding to make the chocolate pudding a dark chocolate one instead. Experiment, tamper, make awesome. Oh yes. P.S. That's tomorrow's project for Sunday's brunch.

Minimum time for an AC promoted image to remain in the perms should be six months. That is long enough for the new to wear off. In cases of excessive duplication a friendly pm to the artist after one month asking him or her if they would like to pick the best one or two could be in order.

At the moment though, the poll indicates that most people are in favor of much greater intervention by the mods.

The premise that 'too many landscapes are being promoted' perhaps suggests that the landscape images being promoted are of a high standard, there are more of them, that more members who admire landscape images are participating in the AC system, or a combination of all.
I am unsure whether image mods do (or can) still promote their choices directly - I think not?

Maybe 'participation' would raise fewer hackles than the word 'intervention' :-)

Could the mods nominate more images in other categories to be voted on to try and redress the balance ?
Could it be accepted by everyone if the mods have the final say - without members thinking their efforts in the voting process had been a waste of time ? The poll would suggest so.

If it is set in stone that the AC is to be the deciding body then could some rotation of nominators be used, chosen at random for a set period ?
Could that be viable under the current system ?

Then there would be a different mix of nominators which may broaden the personal choice factor which must play some part. For instance a group of a certain number being given,say, a month to view images and at the end of that month choose their set number of nominations to be voted on.

It has been noted that images are often nominated very quickly - I think that is a natural reaction - if one sees something 'outstanding' . Having to delay the actual button push until the end of the observation period would lead to more comparisons being made.
Being notified that it is your turn on the nomination panel could lead to more thought being given to selections, and would delay those with a penchant for certain subjects - for instance three legged cats with purple ears, from leaping in with a whoop of delight when they see another one, and nominating it just because it is their favourite type of desktop.

Quoting =Samatar
"Things to consider might be, should there be a time limit on removing images (ie should there be a mandatory period for which images promoted by the AC remain in the main galleries); should there be a minimum target, or a maximum limit to images removed; should there be some sort of nomination process (such as an anonymous poll) so that other members can recommend images for removal... etc."

I agree with zunazet above that 6 months would be a good time, maybe less.
Would a minimum or maximum target/limit serve any purpose?
Personally I would be very uncomfortable voting in a poll for removal of images. Being encouraged by the mods to notify them if we see a glaringly unsuitable image and then leave it to their discretion would be simpler and easier. The image mods removed superfluous images in the past without any great hoo-haa, unless they were considered moved too soon. Still are removing older images, and no one appears to be jumping up and down.

As I said earlier - a personal note to a member if similar images are promoted at the same time asking them to chose should not upset anyone, and zunazet's suggestion I like even better - delay a month or so - and if the artist did not agree or gave reasons against, then just let it go - they can be removed after the specified time for inclusion.

Instaed of reomving images from mains every 6 months,why not only allow so many to be promoted every 6 months to each catagory.For instance if the number is 10 per 6 months then only 10 new landscpes would make it in the said 6 month period.Same with all other catagories.

I do not believe the answer is to limit the number of pictures by category. Excellent pictures may be overlooked in order that other categories get their numbers.

I believe what we have here is a desired to ignore our own success. Caedes has strengh in Photography and, after all, isn't the goal to elevate the very best?

If you were to look at the main gallery right now, here is what you would find; 12 pictures per page per gallery: Main = 1267 broken up as follows: Abstract = 136, Caedes =12; Computer = 88, Contests = 84, Holidays = 8, Illustrations = 35, Music = 4, Photography = 853 (Landscapes = 113), Rework = 6, Space = 37, and Tutorials = 7.

Obviously, the Photography category is made up of the most artists and thus, the pool of excellent pictures for promotion, lies within that genre. Since we only have two nominations at a given time, and with the vast numbers of photography pictures from which to choose, a built in mathmetical bias kicks in.

I think that we need to have the ability to nominate more than two per week or we need a council, made up of AC members, to seek the pictures not being nominated but should be and add them to what the AC nominates. I also think the mods should be able to add or reject nominees from either group.

Just my "2" cents worth.

To clarify: My issue at the start wasn't that too many images of a particular category were being promoted, more that too many of those particular examples are not outstanding in my eyes; ie people are promoting certain categories too easily because they are easy on the eye. There are a lot of nice landscape photos, but we shouldn't be promoting them just because they are nice, which is what seems to be happening right now.

Personally I think it would be pretty easy to go through the pages of landscape photos that have been picked by the AC and see which ones are truly outstanding and which ones are just nice, if you try to look at them more critically.

In all honesty - perusing the Main Landscape gallery page by page and flicking between sort by date and sort randomly I see 'nice' images in each. I see 'exceptional' images in each. My perception of 'exceptional' would be different to anyone elses, except in a few 'exceptionally exceptional' cases - perhaps a reason for designated image mods to have the final say. There could never , except in a minority of cases, be agreement by all.
Is it a requirement that a Main Gallery image be of world class standard or a pleasant, popular desktop image. The answer is probably somewhere in between.

"Caedes has strength in Photography and, after all, isn't the goal to elevate the very best?"

Don't get me started on Contest topic selection polls, on the notes of Caedes.net's strength..

What did this site originally display in it's gallery pages, in terms of imagery genre?

Where are 'we' today?

It might be that the number of photography members outweigh those digitally inclined as of this writing here. I would hope.. that consideration, so that more digital artists do not leave.. be given to all artists.

Continually having to remind the community, just on the note of Contest topic selections as but one example.


"Is it a requirement that a Main Gallery image be of world class standard or a pleasant, popular desktop image. The answer is probably somewhere in between."


So, which is it.. 'the very best', or, somewhere between 'world class and a pleasant, popular desktop image'?

I would go with the former. 'Cause..


If 'you' were looking for a desktop image ... and had a choice of:

photo.net

InterfaceLIFT (Oh.. lots of landscapes ... but..)

1x.com

The Main Galleries


Where would you pick 'yours' from?



And then the issue at hand for this discussion;

"... people are promoting certain categories too easily because they are easy on the eye."

Which, according to the poll results ... looks to point to the same.

"Is it a requirement that a Main Gallery image be of world class standard or a pleasant, popular desktop image. The answer is probably somewhere in between."

IMO we should definitely be leaning strongly toward world class. Some of the websites Les linked to show the sort of thing we really should be aiming for, I think. Quality, not quantity?

As far as comparing the AC promoted images to those selected by the mods goes, yes I agree that many of those selected by the mods over the 10 or so years the site has been running that way aren't up to par either. That is why, as I said earlier, we continue to go through and edit the selections made by the mods. There have also been regular occasions where one or more mods may disagree about a promotion, in which case we never hesitated to point this out and ask whether the image should really be promoted. Often these selections would be demoted again, usually within days of the promotion. IMO the AC selected images should be subject to similar scrutiny; as we have already established the poll suggests that the majority agree. I think we have pretty much sorted the issue out, now we just need to decide to do about it.

A number of people have PM'ed me suggestions, as well as posting them here (sorry that I have not responded to all of them). Some are not viable as they require making changes that I and the other mods cannot implement, but I will try to take them all into account when I make a list of ideas shortly and then we might hold another poll to see what people favor the most (or not, depending on how many viable ideas there actually are). Anyway I intend to make some more concrete decisions soon and hopefully we can get things rolling.

"IMO we should definitely be leaning strongly toward world class. Some of the websites Les linked to show the sort of thing we really should be aiming for, I think. Quality, not quantity?"
______________________________________________________________

Definitely. Aiming for.
If only truly world class images were to be selected the Main Galleries would shrink considerably :)

I am familiar with 1x.com - yes they are very exceptional images. One of the reasons that site atrracts such outstanding top class artists could be because it is a vehicle for them to sell their works - prices range from US$49 to $199. Only one in 20 uploads is published - chosen by a 'professional curator' - there are 10 of them.
A free account allows a total of only 10 uploads - 1 per week. There are various paid options. They claim to have many famous photographers in their membership.
It is interesting to see when viewing their most popular images there is a large proportion containing people, or straight out portraits. Also how many of these are 'nude content'
I enjoy people images and I wish we had more people works uploaded here (only 5 pages in New Images).
BUT 1x is an online Photo Gallery - caedes.net is a Desktop Wallpaper site covering other categories and the focus is on images suitable for that purpose. Many of the fine works on the other site are wonderful to look at but less suitable for our purpose. An exceptional photo is an exceptional photo but not always an exceptional desktop image. Others will disagree I am sure :-)

Personally I believe the recent standard of Main Gallery promotions is higher than it was in the early days of the current system.

1x says 'We are looking for variation, originality, mood, story and technical quality. Variation and originality are very important'

Seems a good policy to me.

1X.com policy on selection for their galleries

"Cliche motifs which we have seen many times before are usually not selected for the gallery unless they are truly outstanding. Some of these motifs are butterflies, dragonflies, ants, sunsets, piers, milky water, the person in the tunnel, the lonely tree, the fisherman throwing a net and the staircase. We rarely publish photos which fit better in a family album, like kids, pets and standard travel photos."

Not a bad set of guidelines.

I have not looked at every category at 1x.com but it is quite interesting - there are no dragonflies, 5 ants, 6 Lonely Trees, 11 Butterflies, 12 Piers, 17 children (wonderful shots) 19 Fishermen,20 stairs and 20 sunsets.

Going up - these are pages, not single images (32 to a page)
76 pages Creative Edits,
69 pages of Fine Art Nudes, and . . .

180 PAGES of Landscapes.
Too many? :)

All exceptional.

I am also sure I have seen some milky water there too, but as you said, All exceptional, and that is probably the reason they got into the gallery.

Phew, that was a bit of a read, getting to the point I could write something without tripping over something someone else said, or corrected or whatever, already.

I share Sam's basic concern re the AC. It's effectively the same problem as with the long lost VB, many people fail to make the distinction between something they like and something which has specific, analysable, principle driven qualities. I just recently posted elsewhere my vent on another aspect of that reality.

There is no process that won't get rocks thrown at it. God Herself could be the Mod and the decisions will still draw criticism and vitriol. Therefore criticism of a process ought not be taken as an indicator that the process or the decisions are bad ones.

It seems to me, while not knowing what the current workload of the MODS is, that more initiative by the Mods would be a good thing in the AC. More capacity for the mods to identify images that have not been nominated because, for instance, they are not pretty but are excellent, and nominate them. (Yes I know, if they didn't get nominated by "us" they probably won't get promoted by "us" either, but maybe if "we" see such shots regularly "we" might start to approach an "aha" moment.) More capacity for mods to take the promotions from the AC as recommendations they can not follow thru on, rather than a fait accompli.

Any system will never be perfect, so a good deal of pragmatism is required when dealing with the dissatisfactions of the vociferous few. (I miss the VB because it added a frisson of uncertainty to each visit to the website - would my previous upload have got a fair cop or a bad deal? What surprise awaited me... it was fun. So I'm a tad miffed at the grumpy bums who got it canned.)

In the real world there is plenty of evidence that EDUCATION can play a large role in changing standards and expectations. Rather than looking at the voting of the AC members, why not consider the promotion of fundamental principles of good imagery, composition and the like, both to the overall membership and to the members of the AC? Lift the knowledge and expectations of the members, lift the quality of their decisions.
Mikel.

@ Mikel:

"Rather than looking at the voting of the AC members, why not consider the promotion of fundamental principles of good imagery, composition and the like, both to the overall membership and to the members of the AC?"

Can you elaborate some more, Mikel? As I am unsure of what you are driving at exactly.

Could be.. more Tutorials.

Could be.. more discussion threads posted in their respective and relevant sections.

Could be.. ?

Currently on the front page of the main galleries are three almost identical shots of a windmill, taken at different times of day. And I just had a FOURTH come up for nomination in my jobs list. Surely whoever nominated that one must have known the other three were already promoted?????

OK... We now have FIVE photos of the same windmill on the front page of the mains. Am I the only one who thinks this is completely ridiculous???

Still 2 more photos to go in the series. And No 7 has already been nominated. I feel like putting no 6 forward just to make a set.

It may seem ridiculous but even more so is the fact that image mods can not step in in such cases and simply ask the artist which one they would like promoted and invite them to give links on that one to the others.....I have had a look and all images in the set look pretty worthy to me, but one stands out above the rest in my eyes - no doubt in others' eyes it would be a different one. I doubt anyone would object to being asked - and especially not in this particular case.

With nominations being open to all members it is inevitable that some duplications will happen - despite instructions from on high to check galleries for similar images having been promoted before either nominating or voting. Obviously that is not working. There is an identical image in two colourways on the first two pages as well. The windmills are at least different images. Which one would you choose to represent the site?

It seems odd to me that image mods do not remove superflous images at the onset and yet do so a few months down the track without any hesitation.
Perhaps more votes required to promote a nomination may improve the situation - voters may get to see more than one similar image in their voting jobs and if had already voted yes to one would not on the next one. In my case I can recall being asked to vote on one of the windmills.

The coding/programmming can not be changed and it seems well nigh impossible for members' nominating habits to change so perhaps it is something that just has to be tolerated.

It seems to me that if the AC was not made up of such a large voting group but rather, a small dedicated committee who would be responsible for reviewing all of the nominated pictures and for assuring the site standards and that duplication would not be occur.

The artists have the rights to post their pictures. The members may still nominate those pictures they deem worthy. And this AC committee may then elevate them or not.

Cronyism, dublications, and substandard pictures would be more easily prevented.

"It seems to me that if the AC was not made up of such a large voting group but rather, a small dedicated committee who would be responsible for reviewing all of the nominated pictures and for assuring the site standards and that duplication would not be occur."

Isn't that what the Praetors were originally?

Pretty much...

It is not a question of what was done originally on the site. As I understand it, the AC was created to select pictures for advancement to the main gallery.

This creation of the AC was done by Geri. If this group of current members being allowed to vote is to continue, then my suggestion is simply have a smaller, internal group, a standardized group, doing the voting for the advancement.

Everyone can vote to nominate, the control group would vote "Yes or No" for advancement.

Things can continue as they are; or as I said above, we can accept the situations created of cronyism, dublications, and substandard pictures being advanced; or do away with the AC and put everything back into the hands of the Praetors.

I care what is seen in the main, do you?

"Total number of PMs received, requesting an image be 'demoted': 0 ... as of this writing here."


Ed?

Let's go to the tote board!

(*drum roll..*)

Total number of PMs received, requesting an image be 'demoted': 1.


Here is that PM:

"Hi Les.
I have a little moderator task for you.

One of my photos - Steppin Out was recently promoted to the permanent gallery.

Another photo of mine - I Declare War! is also in the permanent gallery.

I feel that "Steppin Out" being a far superior version of the same subject makes I Declare War! redundant and the less desirable of the two.

So for the sake of keeping the Main Gallery varied and interesting, please consider I Declare War! for removal from the permanent gallery.

Thanks."

I'm convinced this it less a wallpaper site and more a psychology experiment.Question is why that guy suddenly saw God?

"This creation of the AC was done by Geri. If this group of current members being allowed to vote is to continue, then my suggestion is simply have a smaller, internal group, a standardized group, doing the voting for the advancement." what like......the mods? LOL Gee thats a novel concept.

:......."Question is why that guy suddenly saw God?".......:

:.......:.......:....... He read this thread .......:.......:.......:

:.......:.......:.......and many others like it.......:.......:.......:

"Mods" nothin to gain "members" incentive to work systems in place for personal gain.Hate to be a nag but still Im thinkin people problem not site problem.

With respect to the opinions spoken by everyone above me, I do not completely see this as a "people problem." I also, prefer, not to think of discussions on this site as an "us" versus the mods. The questions being asked are questions in search of thoughtful answers.

I pose, if all the "members" left, would the site be better off with just the mods remaining, and thus, would the site then be populated only with aging pictures?

I believe we, "the members," need Caedes.net. We get far more out of it than we put in. I also believe we are the life blood which enables the site to continue. This is our utopia, filled with members and mods (who I believe, by the way, are members too). The rainbow of membership includes those who will not play well with others. The range of personalities on Caedes is as wide as it is in society at large. But who amongst would want to tear this site down over questions of how the site conducts its business?

How the pictures are selected to be in the Main is important. The discussion is important. But it is a discussion for all and the teams are not "Mods" versus "Members, " it is about structure and policy.

A site solution; a members solution.

Just a thought for anyone interested in considering it; consider this site as a microcosm of a nation.

Do you really, I mean really think, that it would be best served by letting everyone do their own thing? Or by having a system similar to the one currently in place in many democratic nations?

A million, or here, a thousand different people have a thousand different opinions. Some better than others. But like it or not, whatever rules are in place are in place for a reason. For those only here a year or two, spend a while going through some of the older threads. Despite some of their unpleasant conclusions, I'd even suggest perusing through the ones in Elephant Graveyard.

Very few ideas and suggestions put forth at this point are without precedent.

"You", the individual member, need to hold yourself accountable for your "share" of what goes on here. Just like citizens who take the extra step and throw out a beer can that some slob tossed on the ground. Not being another slob, and not tossing another beer can on the ground just isn't enough.

Hey, I don't always agree with every mod's decision, or opinion. And Lord knows, I've been pretty vocal about it in the past, both publicly and in private. But again, they are volunteers, tasked with keeping the site in a fashion that the individual who owns it, has asked them to.

I'm not trying light any fires here, nor fan any flames. But anyone who isn't happy about the site should take a quick peek in the mirror and ask "what have 'I' done here, good bad or otherwise?".

To return to the original post, there are too many landscapes. Also probably too many repeat postings of the same subject, object, and scene. Instead of posting 12 shots (intentional exaggeration) of the same flower, windmill, Florida sunset, etc why not mix it up a bit. For you Fractalistas out there, 20 variations (again, making a point) on the same design? Tsk tsk tsk.

C'mon guys. Dig deep. Post fresh stuff. Resist posting "whatever" just to post "something".

Or this site will eventually wind up going to hell in a hand basket. Or at the very least, be much less than in it, and in turn "we" could be.

"...The AC has been in place long enough now that I think it has moved beyond the trial stage and we need to decide whether it is going to continue in this vein or whether we are going to up the stakes in terms of what is exceptional and what is just "very good"... it seems a shame for the site if the mains just become a ho-hum collection of "nice" photographs..."

• The site is not restrictive or exclusive.
• The majority of members are unskilled amateurs.
• These same amateurs are posting,nominating and voting.
• It is not likely to change.
• The "Main Galleries" have already become a "collection of "nice" photographs."
• There are far more places to view art online now than when this site was started which leaves this site less viewed and appreciated.
• Sadly, some of the best artists leave Caedes to seek out their peers on more exclusive sites.


Make some friends.
Post some art.
Enjoy it for what it is.

I delete my own photo's if I don't think they deserve to be in the Main Gallery and toss out my whole gallery every couple of years. Maybe sometimes beauty is in the eye of the beholder because I will see some pictures in the main gallery and think "how did that dog ever get in here"? P.S. nothing personal against dogs..I love em!