Just in case some poeple missed it, there is a poll here asking for your opinion on whether the AC is working or not:

Poll

Interested to get feedback from as many members as possible.

Pretty sure it is 60Hz here in North America across the.. uh, border(s).

I voted in the poll. I miss the Voting Booth is it ever coming back?

I'd be surprised if we've seen the last of the c-index. But who knows. Thanks for voting!

seriously does anyone really know what time it is?

Thirty-two votes cast in the poll as of this writing here.


"Pretty.. pretty, pretty, pretty ... pretty good."

@tbob "seriously does anyone really know what time it is?" I think it's time you stop smacking your head on that x you've been doing it for years and it will only give you brain damage... lol..

Not to mention how many blood transfusions he's needed ...

I vote every time I get one. Some are very good and definitely need to be in the permanent gallery and others you have to wonder why they were submitted.

wheres the pop?

OMG! You changed your avatar. Was it painful?

Recap of AC Poll, as of this writing here:

Yes, leave things exactly as they are - 8 votes
No, there need to be some minor changes - 9 votes
No, there need to be major changes - 12 votes
No, it should go back to how it was before the AC - 10 votes

Total: 39 votes.

With a clear majority and indication for that of some changes to the Art Council process/system, if not.. major changes.


Anyone wish to elaborate on the changes they feel might address whatever and whichever issues? (Whether they be major, or minor.)

Or, simply that of changes?

I would like to know if mods can put images in the Main Galleries without submitting them to the AC first, because the guidelines set forth by Caedes with regard to the way the AC works say that Senate members too have to submit the image to the AC for voting. Thank you.

Cindy, I answered this on another thread, but I'll answer in short form here too. What it says is that the mods *do*, not that they *must*. The ability to promote images directly precedes the AC, it is part of the responsibilities laid out in the description of who the mods are here and it has not been rescinded with the creation of the AC.

So, in essence, what you are saying is that it is not really spelled out for all to see. At least, that is what I glean from what you said above and what is written in the link you provided. If there are any changes made to the AC as appears evident are necessary by the responses to the poll regarding the AC, maybe spelling out that mods can do this so it is clealy written and easy to find is a step toward that goal.

Answered on the other thread, let's keep this in one place please.

Well, there are so many threads about the same thing.

Exactly the reason behind the attempt to keep it in one place - so that the information can be found.

We now return this thread to the topic of the AC Poll that Samatar posted.

As a change or perhaps addendum to the way the AC works, I suggest that it be clearly outlined exactly what a mods role is vis a vis putting images into the Main Gallery. Can they nominate to the AC as outlined in Caedes desription of how the AC currently works AND just move images from the New Gallery to the Main Gallery at will and if so, then amend the description to include that information so there will be no confusion on the part of the members.

Mods have always been able to promote images. I don't recall anyone suggesting that this had ever changed.

Recap of AC Poll, as of this writing here:

Yes, leave things exactly as they are - 8 votes
No, there need to be some minor changes - 9 votes
No, there need to be major changes - 12 votes
No, it should go back to how it was before the AC - 10 votes

Total: 39 votes.

With a clear majority and indication for that of some changes to the Art Council process/system, if not.. major changes.


Anyone wish to elaborate on the changes they feel might address whatever and whichever issues? (Whether they be major, or minor.)

Or, simply that of changes?

If as Sam said above that mods are still able to move images into the Main Gallery at will and suggest that has not changed, then perhaps there really is no need for duplication of efforts in having an AC at all. If one nominated image takes up to a few weeks for the majority out of 19 votes and another image can be promoted within a few hours of posting, by a mod, that is not a balanced or fair mechanism to all images under consideration for moving into the Main Gallery.

Images should go through the same process for admission to the Main Gallery meaning the only way a mod should advance an image is via the AC procedure as outlined in Caedes description of how the Art Council works.

Bad images will inevitably make it through, hopefully extremely rarely. Good images may go un-nominated, but the red Art Council button is there if someone thinks it should be. No one is infallible in their selection of the best images, whether mod or member. That has been shown to be true when only mods did it and in the way it is done now. No system is perfect. Refinements are sometimes a good idea as Caedes made after the initial launch of the Art Council, but there should be one mechanism with regard to how the images are promoted, not two.

a more important question is wny does it matter?

It matters, Mike, because the AC was devised as a mechanism to promote images. Why do we need two mechanisms that work by different means when Caedes clearly menetions how the Senate should nominate images also. It has never been published, only implied that mods may still promote images without this protocol. I would like to see Caedes make a clarification on it. If it is so, then I feel no need to nominate images.

the AC was created to take part of the workload off the mods plus give members a bit more control over some of the stuff that goes into the mains.I dont understand why anyone would care if a mods moved an image to mains once in a while.why would that matter?

If there is not a problem with it, I would like to see Geri make it clear in his policy. That seems a simple request.

Les, I was one of the people who voted to keep the AC, with changes.

My opinion is that the AC could be a valuable addition to the site, under the right conditions. Perhaps if consisted of a set group of members, who were selected not just for their ability to get images into the perms, but their displayed objectivity, fairness and sense of community.

I believe that using the single criteria of quantity of images in the perms leaves the selection process open to abuse, even if somewhat unintentional. As the perms currently contain a slew of images that were placed there mere days after being posted, and images that are just as good or better go unrecognized, this tells me the current manner is tainted.

But, I believe with changes, the AC can really do some good, in helping to showcase the best of what the site's members have to offer. The key word, of course, being best.

The Praetors have been promoting images to the Main Galleries since day one of the Art Council and as per our duties and responsibilities outlined and linked to above by Cat ('Site Information' ... left-hand side menus, there for all to read).

And.. *caedes has never instructed us to do otherwise in all this time. (He is informed every time an image is promoted and has even complemented some of the choices made by 'us' when we have promoted an image.)

Your 'suggestion'/request/point(s)/reason(s) are now duly noted on this discussion thread.

You are free to take the matter up with him, if you wish via a PM.. or as Cat has suggested otherwise (Suggestion Poll/Feature Bloat / Bug Squash forum).

Recap of AC Poll, as of this writing here:

Yes, leave things exactly as they are - 8 votes
No, there need to be some minor changes - 9 votes
No, there need to be major changes - 12 votes
No, it should go back to how it was before the AC - 10 votes

Total: 39 votes.

With a clear majority and indication for that of some changes to the Art Council process/system, if not.. major changes.


Anyone wish to elaborate on the changes they feel might address whatever and whichever issues? (Whether they be major, or minor.)

Or, simply that of changes?

It'simply common knowledge that mods arer able to and do promote images. How do you think images were promoted previously? By mods. How did you know this? Was the policy made clear in the FAQ? Nope. It was just common knowledge. It didn't need to be spelled out, nor does it now IMO. I think we have made it pretty clear in this thread, but I shall clear up any confusion there might be below:

*** Image moderators on caedes may at any time and at their own discretion promote images that they feel meet the relevant criteria to the main galleries. This is in addition to, and does not replace, the function of the Art Council ***

Clear enough?

If you feel this is somehow reducing/negating the function of the Art council and that your own input is indeed a waste of time (though I fail to see how) then you are certainly well within your rights to stop nominating images or voting on images already nominated.

Though somehow, I am not anticipating that I will see any change whatsoever, at least in the long term, to the art council's nominations/promotions.

As for requiring clarification from Geri, I'm sure you have noticed his abscence from the site for a number of months, so I think you would be wasting your time to make such a request, but if you wish to attempt to contact him you have the same means as the rest of us to do so. IMO repeating such a request in this forum is a futile activity.

As far as I am concerned the matter has been addressed more than adequately and personally I will be taking no further part in the discussion.

What I find most irritating is the arrogant, high and mighty attitudes that are displayed when someone has a question or an idea that you take issue with. I see the numbers are declining again. Is it any wonder why? So while the cats away, the mice will play. Is that what you are saying? Geri does make occasional appearances, I have seen him on site, unless one of you is impersonating him. And if no one can change anything except Geri, why are we having this thread?

As of this writing, Geri has not turned off the capabilities of the mods to promote/demote images, and he has been very clear with us how he would like us to use those abilities.

Site management does not happen in a vacuum or wholly by committee, and while some people may disagree with mods' decisions in regard to specific images, on the whole, the mods are a group of people who have been vetted by Geri, to carry out the function of moderating the galleries, which includes promoting images they feel worthy.

If at some point, he decides that the Art Council should fully replace this portion of the moderator duties, as put forth in suggestion above, I am sure that he will do so.

The issue of qualification for promotion to the main galleries has nothing to do with how long the image has been on the site, and only to do with the quality of the image itself. Yes, if a mod promotes it, the image is promoted quicker, and it is guaranteed a place in the main galleries. That is the privilege and responsibility that has been givin to the mods by the site's creator and manager.

Noted: A suggestion to have one promotion system only.

I don't think that this is necessary, although I would like to see the two systems work more closely with each other as I previously outlined in another thread.

Speaking of which - Les, do you want me to copy and paste my original suggestions about changes here for fresh discussion?

Hi Cat, I'm not sure if your words here:

"The issue of qualification for promotion to the main galleries has nothing to do with how long the image has been on the site, and only to do with the quality of the image itself"

are in response to my post, but I do agree with what you've said. However, I'd like to offer a clarification.

I said:

" As the perms currently contain a slew of images that were placed there mere days after being posted, and images that are just as good or better go unrecognized, this tells me the current manner is tainted."

In saying so, I'm not saying that an image finding its way into the perms 48 hours after being posted doesn't belong in the perms. I'm simply offering the suggestion that it got there at the expense of a lack of attention to previously posted images which may have been equally or exceedingly deserving of that honor.

:-) <---- obligatory smiley icon denoting lack of hostility, dammit!

Fine, Cynlee, since you are unable to accept any opposing viewpoint as anything but arrogant and high and mighty, I shall resume my previous policy of ignoring your "questions" and "ideas" from this point forward.

Allow me, Cat..

"My thoughts of what would work well, and I think would balance the personal preferences that exist even among the mods.

1) Stick with the 2 nominations per week as a way of forcing people to be more selective at the beginning of the process. I'm not currently in favor of the "more if your nomination is approved" because I just see way too much room for manipulation there. However, with the following changes, I'd be extremely supportive of it.

2) Any nomination that receives 70% yes votes goes to a mod voting system, and needs at least 3 yes votes to go to the main galleries.

3) Any nomination that receives 95% yes votes at the AC level goes to the main gallery without having to go through the mod system (if that many people like it, it would probably be a yes vote via the mod system anyway, and it clearly appeals to a wide enough audience to warrant attention).

4) Mods can also nominate images directly into either the AC or the Mod system - as a Mod, I know I've hesitated over things, and being able to get a 2nd opinion this way would be useful to me. However, mods would still retain the ability to directly promote or demote.

5) Minimum AC voting population to be kept private to prevent manipulation, but should be based on a percentage of the weekly pool of active voting members. Which also gives those who don't like what they're seeing more of a reason to get in there and be part of the active voting pool.

6) While this would clear up a lot of the "not really worthy" stuff, there would still be the issue of duplications, etc. So, in the event that an image needs to be removed from the main gallery because there are 6 almost identical river shots, unless a couple of them are clearly better, mods message the artist to ask them to select which one or 2 (depending on how close the duplication is) shots they would like to have remain. Ideally this is a problem that would be caught at the upload stage to enforce section 2E* of the CoC, but frankly it doesn't always happen. Stuff slips through the cracks.

*"Once an image has been uploaded to the site it should not be uploaded again unless substantial changes have been made to it. These changes should be enough so that it could be reasonably assumed that the resulting changed image would receive a better critique than the previous version."

fyi, a minor color change, a slightly different view taken from 2 steps to the left, or eliminating a phone pole wire do not count as "substantial" changes. The difference between the 2 images should be drastic, such that they are clearly visible to the naked eye on a single glance, in their thumbnail size."
_______________________________________________________________


From the other suggestions that have come out these discussions, this one is at the forefront in my mind:

'Allow members to nominate one image per month (from their own galleries/works) to be forwarded to the Art Council.'

Fair and equal to all members.


Not saying that the other suggestions/changes that have been put forth are not worthy of consideration.

Simply put, 'allowing members to nominate one of their own images per month' ... seems to be quite equitable on a number of fronts (i.e. overlooked images). And addresses a number of concerns (i.e. multiple/similar imagery being promoted).

yes changin my avatar was painful.my group says stay strong but im thinkin maybe just use the old one for a little while,maybe just for one post.i mean really it my avatar right if i want to use it i should be able to right?whos it hurtin im just going to use it one time then ill quit.

this site rules

(*schedules an avatar intervention for tbob*)

"Fine, Cynlee, since you are unable to accept any opposing viewpoint as anything but arrogant and high and mighty, I shall resume my previous policy of ignoring your "questions" and "ideas" from this point forward"
.
That is a ridiculous statement and simply not true. A generalization at best. How is ignoring my questions and ideas anything new?

Third_eye makes a very good observation in his last comment.

Recap of AC Poll, as of this writing here:..

Yes, leave things exactly as they are - 10 votes.
No, there need to be some minor changes - 10 votes.
No, there need to be major changes - 12 votes.
No, it should go back to how it was before the AC - 10 votes.

Total number of votes cast in poll: 42.


With one noted change of a vote cast.. on the poll discussion.

Which segues to a point for consideration.. and posted on the discussion in response to Sherree's; aka danika recent'ish post (3/12/11 14:19).

So 10 wanting the good ole boys club to remain the same and 32 wanting change.Totally cant wait to see how this plays out,especially since 10-15 have been dictating site policy for so long.By the way why is this being brought up?Im thinkin without mentioning your name maybe your the one.

"By the way why is this being brought up?"

Just noticed and as mentioned in my above post, a post/comment was added to the poll discussion.

And that the numbers had changed. (Was 39.. now, 42 votes cast.)

Indicating to me.. that there is still some interest in the topic/subject.

Caedes is the only person who can dictate site policy, and that's not likely to change.