I have been a regular (meaning continuous without long breaks in between) user/member of Caedes now for over 5 years. Caedes has provided me with a wonderful hobby for which I am very grateful. The C-Index was always a helpful scale for me (even if it was at times unfair) to judge the quality of my images. Now I am actually at a loss with no-one and no scale to tell me how good or bad my images are. My own well meaning friends - bless them - will always tell me how nice the images are but real critique will be there only rarely.

Therefore my request to Caedes and the moderators is this : Because a handful of people complained about the unfairness of the C-Index system you got rid of it completely. Wouldn't it have been a better idea to ask all of us whether we wanted the C-Index or not? Those who did not want it anyway had the choice of keeping their images out of it. My suggestion is this : Ask all Caedes users if they want the C-Index to be re-introduced. Let us say that only those who have been members for at least 6 months/1 year will be eligible to vote. If the "yes" votes are more than the "no" votes then the system will be re-introduced and further complaints will be ignored in future. How is that?

Raj, removal of the C-Index was *caedes choice.

The moderators had no say in the decision.

You could possibly PM *caedes with your request and allow him to take your suggestion under consideration.

Hope this helps :)

I agree with everything Raj said.

I would also add that as well as being an incentive it also increased traffic to the site - members would log in to view their score progress even when there was no intention of uploading or commenting.
It may not have always given a fair indication of an image's quality but it did show what participating members considered were images that could promote interest - within and without the membership.

The answer is not to turn to the CI, which was being abused, but to ask your well meaning friends to be a little more critical in their comments. I agree, getting a lot of "wow that's nice" type of comments is great for the ego, but not so good for one's art. I think Les (purmusic) started a thread about this elsewhere. Adding a statement like "critiques welcome" to your description will encourage people to leave critiques for you.

"Adding a statement like "critiques welcome" to your description will encourage people to leave critiques for you."

I have not found this to be the case. The only thing that encourages serious critique is an image that captivates the attention of its (wider)audience. Run of the mill images do not create that interest, but they do in many instances please a viewer enough for them to say so.
The most reliable way to attract in depth critiques is by submitting a link to Request for Comment.

Two things..

Suggestion Poll


And..

'We've' been there..

... and done that.

*caedes;

"This isn't a requirement. As Mikel (Mythmaker) said, it is just another way for people to easily reinforce positive behavior (like a good critique)."


A 'challenge' that has faced the site since day one, I believe. Other and numerous discussions centered on upping/increasing constructive critiques placed/received on images posted.

For the record..

I thought/feel/believe.. that the voting aspect to the site was an important one on a number of fronts.

Another way of getting critical images, that certainly works for me, is to start the critique yourself by saying something. Adding "I am not sure about the composition" or some such critical comment into the description, prompts people to answer you. You can also try PMs to people who leave comments asking them to be more critical of your work in general, rather than having to add an image to the requests for comments. Lets get critiques going properly on this site.

The main problem with the site is and always has been it rewards competition.That leads to cheating.People here have always measured how good or bad the stuff they post based on votes or how high it is in the gallery,problem is most people have used friends to get these results.Now all thats left is a bunch of Picaso's who are to good to take advice and to busy to give it.

Well said. But Picassos? Ouch, damn that was harsh. ;-)

LOL Im talkin abou pizza WTF you talkin about?

"to good to take advice and to busy to give it."

I'm not sure who it is you're talking about "mindmelt" but, unless you've been away for some time, your bio indicates you've been with us less than a month whereas there are many of us who've been Caedesians for years, myself since the Spring of 2006. We've seen plenty of people here who are happy to give and take advice and honest critique (without seizing on the smallest glitch or overlooking quality-challenged images), and very few "Picasos." Personally I like the idea of a group of professionals and/or extraordinary hobbyists who would be a critique committee, willing to help novices improve their craft, be it photography, computer design, fractals, or illustration. That would be preferable to going back to the name-calling, attacks, and fighting I saw in so many threads that complained about the C-Index. That sort of thing is one of the concerns that drives people away from this site. I know for a fact that several long-time and highly-productive members were on the verge of leaving when Geri pulled the plug on the index.

-Nik

You want people to come back make it fun.I remember a day when people used to hang out here for "shits and giggles" that was all.Used to be a fun place to hang out and play, now you practically have to have a damn lawyer present to post on the board.
Then a question pops up why is membership droppin off,it aint no damn fun anymore thats why.You want people to come around make it fun.I know of people who used to sit logged on workin on stuff all night BSin those days are gone.

Hey Nik whens the last time you stepped out of your circle of friends and honestly reached out to and unknown?

Nik, I'm calling the BS card on you.

"I'm not sure who it is you're talking about "mindmelt" but, unless you've been away for some time, your bio indicates you've been with us less than a month whereas there are many of us who've been Caedesians for years, myself since the Spring of 2006."

Now since your profile states "you" got here in '09 you might wanna resist calling someone else out on appearing in a new incarnation of themselves.

Just.. sayin'.


Now, with that out of the way, this place was much more fun. One of its biggest downfalls was the cliquish horses*** that slowly strangled this place. People started and from what I can see, still, only visit and/or comment on images by their friends. I still see some really bad, or at least mediocre images getting the "oh that's great" treatment. The often villainized (including by me) c-index was simply one way that people altered the way this site should've been experienced.

"I thought/feel/believe.. that the voting aspect to the site was an important one on a number of fronts."

One reason being is that it livened up the discussion boards.

:oD


That silliness aside.. I've put the suggestion up on the Suggestion Poll ... to bring back the C-Index. In some shape or form.

"Lets get critiques going properly on this site."

(*rereads posts above*)


Seems to be working?

:oP

One reason being is that it livened up the discussion boards.

Wow. Just... wow. I'm nominating you for the Nobel Understatement Award. That, and a shovel and hip boots.

;-)

Amazing how the c-word can still cause arguments, even when it no longer exists!

Nik, I reread your post, and wanted to make sure the positive point you made was addressed.

I like the critique by committee idea. I had a similar "committee" idea regarding the AC. I think, though, that it would be more helpful if everyone could simply be 'helped' to understand what a constructive critique is all about, and how to go about offering, and receiving them properly.

For those who insist on pooping in the sandbox, I suggested before, and still think now, that they be first warned, then placed on a "time out".

If any committee were to be formed, how about oversight, where in the event of the return of a grading system (shudder) any "anomolies" (too high or too low) are adjusted, or at least looked into.

I posted this thread in the hope that there will be support/resonance from caedes users who are of the same opinion as me about reintroducing the c-index. I also sent a PM to Geri as suggested by Mimi but no response so far. But this is now - as usual - turning into arguments and commenting about the comments of someone else and thus leaving the main theme aside. Please at least say whether you are for or against the c-index.

The problem here at Caedes isnt a C-Index problem its an E-Go problem.To many "WOW's" and not enough "NO WOW FOR YOU" try harder.

Ramad I personally am against the c-index.Reason being there are to many people who would rather spend time cheating the C-Index for personal gain then to spend time workin on art.

To Mindmelt: "Hey Nik whens the last time you stepped out of your circle of friends and honestly reached out to and unknown?"

Since it's apparent you don't know me at all I'll make it clear: I do it all the time. I look through the new images and find those to comment on from people I've never even heard of before as well as those I do. But now it appears the very thing I was hoping wouldn't occur, is. I'm not here to fight with you. You're welcome to your opinion. Anyone who has read my comments on their images can testify that I refuse to do the lame "Oh, wow" without a lot more behind it in terms of what works and what doesn't. Most of the time I leave paragraphs, not platitudes. I just don't deserve wise-ass comebacks since mine wasn't meant that way. I did say I had no idea of the length of your time here other than what's in your bio.

To Third Eye: I didn't just get here in 2009 (you speak like that was just yesterday) but in 2006. I left for a hiatus and changed my avatar and site name when I came back. Is that a crime? Do you feel it's dishonest? No. I ran afoul of a psychotic member here that went on the attack for no reason other than ethnic hatred (it's documented with a mod-that person's attacks are still viewable). It's protecting myself from attack but, I'm seeing that responding to this thread is inviting just that and is the very same thing that has happened to so many members in the past. If they present an idea or concern that is not to the liking of certain other members, the inevitable attack comes upon them. I debated entering this thread for good reason and the reason has raised itself up and declared itself. "Now with that out of the way." ??? I'm guessing you're now dismissing me? That sort of thing is what many of us have come to expect.

To Mimi; I did hint at this, didn't I? After this I'm thinking of turning down your offer of the other day.

To Samatar: No kidding.

-Nik

I've just discovered that "mindmelt" is, in fact, tbob. I apologize for thinking he was too new to understand how messed up the c-index was, but it also explains the nature of the rebuttal. Since I do not "own" or care to own this site, I will bow out.

-Nikoneer

Why is the (now non existant) C-index so maligned?
It was not the system but the abuse of that system that ruined it.

mindlelt - ""NO WOW FOR YOU" try harder." would be about as useful as a chocolate teapot.
Your belief "that 'most' people have used friends to get these results" - do you know that for a fact? Or is it just your opinion? I believe that 'most' members would take offence at that statement. Perhaps one of your names is also 'Picaso' because in the 6 years (1753 images) of my membership it would appear that you too have always been too busy to give advice to me at any rate as I can not recall you ever having done so.

I agree, Lyn, it was not the c-index as much as those who used it to trash other members. But since there's no way to get them to stop, Geri's removal was most likely the only way to stop the abuse. If he brought it back it would only start up again. We need to move on. Perhaps Geri has something in production that will work better?

Okay, NOW I bow out.

oh brother. Nik, you appear to have taken my words out of context. Simply, whatever your reasons are/were, you don't use the same name that you did upon first arriving. Mindmelt has whatever reasons he has, and shouldn't be called out for it, especially to detract from a perfectly valid point.

When I said 'with that out of the way', I was simply moving past that one point, not being dismissive.

I'm kind of disappointed you make no mention of anything else I said, in that post, or the subsequent one.

Life goes on.

Raj (Ramad) I miss the C-index too but am completely apposed to its reinstatement. The emotional and social turmoil of this thread is a typical example of why.

Even though I do agree that the c-index may have been removed for some of the wrong reasons, I can't say i miss it now it's gone. I pretty much agree with the above that it caused too many problems. It would have been nice if there had been some solution other than removing it that would have brought an end to those issues, but after so many years of trying I can't see that there was any other way.

I've said from day one its not a site problem is a people problem.
send me message who said mindmelt was tbob Nik

I would have liked the C-Index to be modified to provide more useful feedback than a single number. I was sorry to see it disappear altogether.

Personally I miss the c-index. I miss the voting booth, it was my favorite make-out spot.

Cat, I'm with you. Voting and the c-index were fun things for me to do on the site and I miss both of them. I complained about the abuse but I also realized that those causing the rift were probably a very small portion of our population. I cannot prove it, but I do believe that most people voted with an eye towards fairness.

I liked it as well, but without voting, I now find I have more time to look at images and leave comments. Change happens, embrace it.

My bad about commenting only on friends photos, I will make it my New Year resolution to always give an honest comment to my friends and other members on the site. I too miss the c-index.

Geez, you guys are totally missing the point. Where do I take my dates for make-out sessions now that the voting booth is gone? *sigh*

(@ gregg, I like that ny resolution, sounds like a good and positive one to me.)

How about the elephant graveyard? Not many people pass through there, especially at night ...

@ Cat: I think there's still a booth available at the rest station on 95. Just steer clear of a lunatic named Sea-Bass.. :-p

take them to the meds counter after 10 everyone is happy and all is good.

One of the main advantages of the VB (personal opinion) was that it forced voters to view a wider selection of images in full screen view. Browsing the new images there is a natural reaction to gravitate to those images personally pleasing. Those in the main belong to those on friends lists. I keep a friends list because their images inspire me and I am most likely to choose them as desktop images.
Extra effort is required to peruse all images, 'like' them or not, and sadly I believe that is something the majority of members do not have the time or inclination to do, and so miss out on seeing and appreciating all genres and moving out of their comfort zone.

Alternatively. one advantage of not having the VB is that I do not have to sit and look at the dross.

True, of course. But dross will stay dross if no help is given to improve. Dross will continue to be submitted and get little feedback if no one bothers to look at it. Very often there is gold amongst the dross that is not immediately seen in a thumbnail.
Just looking at the best (or what we like) is the equivalent of only bothering to look at and comment on friends images.

A lot of images on this site are not badly taken photographs, they have no compositional errors, not over saturated, or too dark, in fact with a modern camera most images are quite good. Sometimes they could be cropped a little, or have a small inconvenient bit cloned out, but these are usually picked up. I am really talking about the stream of "here's something I saw so I wanted to share" type images. Perfectly taken and composed, but lacking any artistic interpretation or insight. Many of these get lots of comments anyway.

Personally I spend most of my effort in the lonely images, where comments are needed, although I sometimes fail to find anything good to say to balance the criticisms, and so shy away from leaving anything at all for fear of really upsetting someone, especially as I know I can be a little brusque on occasion.

Personally I miss the c-index I like seeing the score and I miss the voting booth because I enjoy voting. They have about as much of a chance returning as I do getting someone to join the Caedes Kiva Team.

Option is back up on the "Suggestion Poll" ... "What feature or change would you most like for caedes.net?":

Re-introduce a scoring system for images.


"Why?

1) Feedback to artists.

2) Ranking would allow for better sorting/selections for "Featured Images" on the front page of site.

3) Members might end up investing more in the site if the functionality/option was operating in some shape or form, once again. (I.e. Spending more time on site, increase page views per, et al.)"

it might ne a good idea to bring back a few things,for instance more uploads in the alotted time or lower the time limit.
That would mean the admins would have to spend more time onsite.
If scoring system came back it would work better if there was nothing to gain from it just a good ole fashion score.To solve the problem of the low votes just put a checkbox allowing voting on image or not.That way if people dont like your image and vote low you will just have to suck it up like every other place like this on the internet.

"it might ne a good idea to bring back a few things,for instance more uploads in the alotted time or lower the time limit."

Kind of hesitant to cast my vote for this suggestion.


Why?

Thought about this before, and I think/believe that if upload limits were increased and/or the upload time frame was decreased ... might impact the signal to noise ratio.

As in.. the 'quality' of images will degrade, go down.


The one instance I can think of that might work with this suggestion is that if an artist/member had a particularly productive 'artistic' period.

For example, they were or had been on holidays and made/had time for a photographic shoot/creating some pieces of CGI, etc.. More than their usual or average.

So..

Maybe allowing them to post up to their weekly allotment numbers as a whole (7 days X 2 uploads/day = 14/week).. and lifting the time frame restrictions might work.

But..

That would require changes to the site's code. And I am not sure how easy this could be implemented.

allowing them to post up to their weekly allotment numbers as a whole (7 days X 2 uploads/day = 14/week)..

From an uploaders point of view this would be great . .but . .could cause saturation in the new images by a certain 'type' of image all at once. what about ..say..no more than 4 images at a time - two days worth at once.

Whatever the solution is it has to be universal. Everyone has to be given the same opportunities or restrictions. As much as I didn't care for the c-index and how it was manipulated by some, creating anger in it's wake, it did add some spice to being here along with the AC. With all the extra features gone from the site, Caedes is now like an Italian dish with no garlic, oregano, or basil for flavoring. It's elementary-school spaghetti sauce. Not everything at Caedes is bland or underdone, however. Through my office I became a member of the NAPP site, the National Association of Photoshop Professionals, about 5 weeks ago. The site has a lot of good features like Photoshop and Lightroom training, discounts, gear and software recommendations, a help desk, and space for a personal gallery, much like here at Caedes. The gallery features don't work as well as what Geri has set up for us, though. You can't do a search and you can't designate favorite images. They do have an Image of the Week contest but it's not thematic like the contests are here. The people running the site simply look at all the images submitted over the past week and pick one. The majority of the people on the NAPP site are professionals and while there are many absolutely gorgeous photos there, the kind that would have rated in the 90s in the old C-I, many others are studio portraits, and even some made into ads. One of the biggest differences is the comments on gallery submissions. Here at Caedes we've all gotten the short pat-on-the-back type of comments but we also get ones that give suggestions on how to create better images. I've also seen folks here get upwards of 20+ comments on a submission. At the NAPP site, as professional as it is, I don't think I've seen more than 4 comments on any image I looked at and very few are of a helpful nature (and many get zero comments regardless of how good a photo it is). So even though Caedes is going through some growing pains right now, it still is a great place for artists of almost any skill level to share their work and learn from others. So how do we (or rather, Geri) get some spice back in here?

-Nik

"NAPP"?

Oooh, I don't like the sound of that acronym..

... ...

... ...

Wait! I do!

(*curls up in blankie with his Pretty Pony plushie*)


"So even though Caedes is going through some growing pains right now, it still is a great place for artists of almost any skill level to share their work and learn from others. So how do we (or rather, Geri) get some spice back in here?"

Welllll..

Membership at Work - Take Three (C-Index improvement discussion)

Critique Team? (Form a constructive critique group)

Contests (Getting a lil' long in the tooth in my humble opinion.. needs a lil' somethin' somethin' ... to rejuvenate interest, improve selection of topics, etc. ... any ideas?)


Take 'your' (speaking generally here) pick.. or suggest something.

'We' are listening..

C-index Improvement discussion - seems a bit superfluous since the C-index no longer exists.

I think perhaps many members are not moving far from their comfort zone with the demise of the compulsory voting system

I already gave my thoughts on the Contests page - have not changed since then.

Would an occassional 'theme' week garner any interest?

Some challenges - provide an image and invite others to improve/change/manipulate it ?

Reminders that this is primarily a WALLPAPER site would not go amiss either

Regarding the Critique Team link . . the original post suggested it "could be made up of existing senate members" . . many are not active any more (unless VERY quietly behind scenes) . . . and would the active ones be prepared/have the time/be bothered to form such a team ? Those that are inclined to critique already do so.

The Foofy Friday Flower thing which developed makes Fridays a bit different - acknowledging that there are some members that dislike it intensely (but they don't have to look and don't have to complain) maybe another day dedicated to a theme - a blue Monday, Black & White Wednesday, Tuesday Musicals . . . or something (maybe even some sort of compulsory voting system to encourage members to move around the site, look at a wider variety of work . . . oh, I think that has a familiar ring to it . . . ?)

Lyn.. with respect to the current "Suggestion Poll" did you cast a vote for either of the two options currently in place?

"Would an occassional 'theme' week garner any interest?"...yes, Lyn, I definitely think a few more fun things to do around here would help spice things up.

"Lyn.. with respect to the current "Suggestion Poll" did you cast a vote for either of the two options currently in place?"

:) Yes, of course!
I voted for the first option about 5 days ago.

Ok, thanks for replying, Lyn.

Now then..

My thinking in putting up the link to the older C-Index discussion thread above was that ... it might further the interest of those that wish to see the return of a scoring system ... to address any shortcomings of the older one.

Come up with some improvements, if you will.

And on this note, had the idea in mind to provide more 'feedback' to the artists and as echoed in part of that discussion ... beyond that of a single number.

So..


May not be entirely superfluous to readdress, then?

"May not be entirely superfluous to readdress, then?" . .no, not if it or some similar system is reintroduced.

OK shortcomings - from memory -

*the perception that the system was subject to 'favouritism'. Have no suggestions for a remedy for that, sorry, except for boxes to mark separate aspects - clarity, composition, interest etc.

*The usage by some (again perceived . . by some) that unfair voting was being used to elevate own images. Dare I mention the zero vote discusssion? The only suggestion I can offer to rectify that is that we be given reassurance that persistent zero voters are monitored and investigated to ascertain their votes are genuine. It does not take many brain cells to know that a decent image does not deserve zero. Five in a row on ok images suggested mischievousness.

The idea of feedback has merit. Commenting allows for that but if it could be integrated with voting it may be an advantage.

Fewer 'required' votes in order to upload ones own (which I think is a good incentive) perhaps (?) may encourage members to take more time and not rush through the job just giving knee jerk reactions -
"I dislike that image"
"Oh I loooove monkeys, this will get a high score",
"Oh no, not ANOTHER flower, give it a zero".
"Seen too many autumn trees this session, cant be bothered looking properly at this one, low score",
Oh look, this is one of my friends images, well done friend, you deserve a 10!"
(None of those are my own reactions, please note) :)

For Les :

Suggestions :1. A "0" or "1" can be given only accompanied by an explanation which will be visible to the artist who posted the image.
2. Reduce the required number of votes on images before posting your own image to say, 7 instead of 10.

How's about.. and as mentioned in the previous discussion ... introducing categories to vote on for any given image?

Not just that of a single number assigned. With the end result being more feedback for the artist.

Technical, artistic and originality.. for example.

In conjunction with decreasing the number of images to vote on.


Might work towards thwarting the ill-intentioned voters, if 'they' have to invest some more time initially?

And work towards improving our own constructive critiquing skills and/or serve to reinforce good good creative habits (i.e. composition, et al).

Yes Les, I like that idea too.

I've wanted something like that for quite a while.

Yes, we did have similar discussions before but some folks were angry at the time, and it's usually hard to think clearly when you're angry. We've all had time to level out since the C-I was pulled.

If these categories had qualitative levels, either a slider bar or 1 through 10 checkboxes, that could make a real difference in letting the submitting party know if they scored (for example) high in color and low in focus, they would at least know what to fix. A section to allow voters to specify, in dialogue, the reasons for their voting (again, yes, we've talked about this before) would be extremely helpful. The various levels could be averaged to come up with a general score and if anyone was playing around and being "mischievous" (such a pleasant word, Lyn, for what I would have used a much shorter one... like, in four letters?),, it would become even more obvious and the mods could address that individual's activities with more ammunition.

There are many novices, intermediates, and pros here. We all have something to offer regardless of our level of experience and, while I believe the years I've spent in this craft places me somewhere between intermediate and pro (probably closer to intermediate), I have no problem at all sharing a technique I use or gobbling up a cool one from someone else. I believe there is a sizable core of individuals here who have the site's best interests at heart of which I consider myself a member. I think we're on the right track.

-Nik

If anyone wants to pass judgement on an image, which is what voting was about, they can always leave a comment instead. A much more useful exercise in my view.

I think the impetus for this, Chris, is that these folks had a voting system before so they're used to it. Some like it and some didn't but it was a feature they used. The NAPP site I belong to has no voting (other than the "Image of the Week," voted on by the people who run the site) and they don't miss what they never had.

The anonymity of the Voting Booth seemed to serve those that did not wish to upset anyone, or could not find the words.. to 'constructively critique' an image.

This.. has been mentioned many a time in past discussions on the C-Index.

And was substantiated (to a degree) in the disparity between that of comments plaed on an image and score received.


So, while I agree that a comment is much more useful to the artist ... it would appear that only a small number of members do so for whatever reasons.

I.e. ... not proficient enough in their craft, don't wish to offend, etc..


So, at the root.. as I see it ... and as mentioned above, introducing categories to vote on for any given image would work towards:

i) Providing more feedback than what is currently happening. (Above and beyond the kind and considered encouragement.)

ii) Reinforce good good habits of the voter themselves. Which I believe follows from having to have looked at an image with a more 'critical eye' in assigning a score to whichever category or categories.

iii) Balances out any language barriers to an extent.


Much easier, once understood.. to assign a number than put into words the pluses and minuses of any given image.


Probably quicker to do so, as well.


And I don't see this as a bad thing, if the end result.. and goal/objective I have in mind ... is accomplished.

More.. feedback.. to the artist.

dont cross t's dont dot i's but if what you post is cool you get a thumbs up if it sucks you get a thumbs down.what happened to that mindset????

"... if what you post is cool you get a thumbs up if it sucks you get a thumbs down ..."

The drawback/shortcoming of doing only that.. is that you don't tell or inform the artist much on what is good, or conversely, what could be improved.


"It is part of the stated mission of caedes.net to encourage artistic growth through critical commentary.. "

- *caedes

This is where I am coming from and have tried to uphold/maintain a level of 'constructive critiquing' in the comments placed on image's pages.

On the downside the suggested categories method would be as open to misuse as a single number vote.
The tools for genuine help and judging can be provided but ensuring those participating are doing so genuinely is more of a challenge.
That is where commenting under ones own name is more likely to encourage honesty. It is very easy to allocate a number under the guise of annonymity so for that reason I think what I said before would should also be considered - monitoring of voting should apply, otherwise what is to stop the same thing happening as did with the single number method.

Another thought on the matter . . maybe the priviledge of voting should be delayed until after a probationary period. Some members begin here with knowledge and expertise but many do not. I was one that did not and my votes were based on ignorance - indeed every image looked like a masterpiece to me at first.

As for "if what you post is cool you get a thumbs up if it sucks you get a thumbs down.what happened to that mindset????"
Everyones 'cool' is different. Using the last image I saw by LOL2012 as an example. I could see it was created with talent, I could see it was above and beyond many images posted here (I am not entirely stupid) If I had been voting on it I would have dissasociated myself from the fact I did not actually LIKE it,and would never want it as a desktop. It did not suck but for me it was not cool. That is a situation where category marking would be helpful. I seem to remember someone with a similar 'mindset' as LOL2012 saying it they did not 'like' an image it deserved a zero.That is a mindset I will not subscribe to, ever.

im good with that."Everyones 'cool' is different" yes well i alway took the c-index as a scale of like or dislike.i always thought it was just a fancy version of "thumbs up thumbs down" idea.by the way the image you are taklin about didnt fair well anywere it was posted.
personally ive always thought the reason a lot of things here failed including the c-index has been competion.as far back as you go images and artists have been rewarded for populatity of their posts which has inspired cheating.

The popularity of the posts should depend on the quality of the post and its suitability as a desktop wallpaper, nothing else.
My Mother had a saying - "Cheats never prosper"

The c-index could be seen as a fancy version of thumbs up thumbs down but the thumbs should be up or down without personal preferences being involved. Personally I would never choose a spider or an alligator or an aircraft as a desktop image for myself. That does not mean I or any other voter can not recognise a good photo of any of those and mark it accordingly.

The nefarious voting members were, in fact, handled in the past when the C-Index was in place and operating.

Yet.. some ... couldn't seem to digest, nor, accept the algorithm(s) used to mitigate the 'low votes', zeros ... whichever or whatever.


So.. I don't have a problem with maintaining anonymity with a new system.

If.. it means that I get some more feedback, more so, than what is currently.. and historically ... transpiring/transpired.


Moving forward..

"The nefarious voting members were, in fact, handled in the past when the C-Index was in place and operating."

But the villains continued to insult, upset and demean genuine posters who, no matter what the alogarithm(s) mitigated and corrected in the final scores, still got the impression that they were of less value to the site than the rights of the said villians to continue their mean and spiteful practices.
I prefer anonymity in voting, but would just like to think that repeat offenders would lose the right to vote if they are unable to do it in a responsible way. No one would expect a moderator to not fulfil their duties properly and members should be expected to fulfil theirs as well. I would never want to be privy to what anyone votes, but knowing that someone in authority was and were able to correct malpractices would engender a lot more confidence in a voting system. We have a Hall of Shame for inappropriate comments so why not a remedy for inappropriate mischiefmakers.
Inappropriate = Not in keeping with what is correct or proper. The low scoring discussion was never about low scores that were deserved but rather about the inappropriateness of low scores being given through spite.Nefarious scheming that was neither correct or proper.

"The popularity of the posts should depend on the quality of the post and its suitability as a desktop wallpaper, nothing else."

Any posting should go beyond just a good well taken image. There should be an artistic interpretation in the image, and therefore there must be a personal element in the voting since all art is subjective. It was some members lack of acceptance of this, and the resulting arguments, that meant the voting was stopped.

And a good thing too.

"The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust

The people who vote/voted are/were not all experts. Some of them just learned to use a digital camera, for example. "Artisitc interpretation in the image" ? Where are we? At the Art Academy?

Graveyard button please.LOL

I prefer.. to live in the here and now.

Then, that of the past.


Side discussions that get mired in points brought up some time back do not serve moving this discussion forward.

However..

Just might be indicative that now is not the time for any changes on the note of reintroducing a new scoring system.


Lemme know when yous are ready..

Quote "Come up with some improvements, if you will."

Did my best.
Contests
Themes
Challenges
Monitoring/catergories for a voting system
Voting be a priviledge


Then got mired in a side issue - oh well. Time to dig myself out and toddle off and brush up on some artistic interpretation I guess. -
No more ideas.

Yea baby

"However..
Just might be indicative that now is not the time for any changes on the note of reintroducing a new scoring system."

Lemme know when yous are ready.."


Maybe the fact that there have been only 7 votes in the poll to 'Re-introduce a scoring system for images' is more indicative of lack of interest than the way this discussion has evolved.
8 people have joined this discussion since the new poll subject went up and there have been 7 votes.
Seems the majority must be perfectly content with the status quo. Most of the 'yous' in fact

'8 people have joined this discussion since the new poll subject went up and there have been 7 votes.
Seems the majority must be perfectly content with the status quo.'

Ive been on caedes on and off for 7 years, life gets busy i post less, life is easy and i post more but i always check in at least once a week. I liked the C index, i was happy with the voting booth, i was upset when both were abolished because i felt they really did add something to the sight. Now even the art council button is gone. I have read many many threads on a variety of issues relating to this but have never dared to comment.Im not happy with the status quo but i didnt dare post a response til now because the venom with which some members of this site respond to posts they do not like scared me off. However, this seemed a good time to let you know there are people out there who are not content with the status quo but also not prepared to rock the boat for fear of the reaction.

Rachel, you have every right to state your opinion and concerns, and that only in small part because you do so with decorum. Those of us who don't believe our own ideas are "the last word" support you and anyone else in commenting and making suggestions.

-Nik

I, for one, enjoyed the c-index, the VB, and the AC. I thought they added a spice, a color, to the site. Did I get upset with zero votes on my pictures, I did, I complained about it in the threads. But, I rather have problems like low scores than to have nothing at all.

Geri allowed us in this forum to speak up and to fire away. The mods kept an eye on things and sometimes closed the discussion down - more "spice" I believe.

Many of my visits to Caedes would start here in the Discussions to read what was going on and see who wanted to correct whatever evil had befallen them. It was wonderful.

I would then go and do my voting in the VB. My next stop was to check out my pictures to see how they were doing.

My worry now is not if the voting booth will come back (I hope it does) but rather if Geri has just lost interest in the site. How much abuse can he take?

I say, bring it all back and let the swinging start again ;)

I have come to believe that one of the biggest reasons members were upset over these things, and I readily admit I was one of them, may be that too many of us have (or had) all our eggs in one basket. I mentioned before that I became a member of NAPP (National Association of Photoshop Professionals) a couple months ago and, as a member, have a gallery space there. Seeing how my images are received there as opposed to here at Caedes--some more, some less--puts many facets of both sites into perspective and has actually reduced anxiety about it all. I'm not saying you should all dump Caedes, not at all. But if you want a different experience that you can compare Caedes against, joining another site can do that for you. I realize that the things that bugged me about this site really aren't that big of a deal and that many things are actually better here. Geri has done all us of a great service with this site and we need to understand that none of us will live or die (metaphorically) if we don't get the best score, the perfect response, the tastiest piece of cake (I just threw that last one in there to see if Les was awake). So spread yourselves out a little and don't sweat the little stuff. There's plenty of sites out there where you can submit, but if you find what I did, you'll remain here as well and be happier for it.

re: Eggs in Baskets :)

Back in 2007 I joined another site, featuring daily weekly and monthly competitions all graded by member votes.
It was ok - and getting awards gave a buzz. I gathered a total of 66 in several different categories(daily ones) by which time I was competely bored by the whole thing. I would like to have been inspired to aspire to weekly or higher awards but there really seemed (for me) little point. There seemed no purpose as there is here - where the images are used as desktops. The requirement to spend more time voting than I actually had, led me to take my few eggs out of that basket and keep them all in this one. I just did not have the time to devote to two places and this one suited far better for me.
One thing I did gain from the excursion was knowing my images could stand up to a different group of critics and the results were surprisingly similar.


I DID like the voting procedure. Numbers from 1 - 10 plus a drop down Quick Comment menu with 7 quick comments Under Positive Feedback and 7 for Constructive Criticism. (There was also a space for further comments and a direction to remember to consider originality difficulty etc when voting. Plus a reminder that consistently low votes could cause your account to be deleted.)


The actual voting placement system seemed rather complicated with vote power being weighted, calculated on awards won and number of votes made. I never fully understood it. Revisiting the site recently it appears from browsing the forums there is some discontent about this method being open to abuse.

I just wish our VB could be reinstated as an incentive for improvement.


(It is interesting how many more members vote in the contest subject poll than the suggestion poll)

What surprises me is that there has been no reaction/comments whatsoever from caedes himself. I sent him a PM as recommended by Mimi when I started this column but there was no response. Is he not interested any more?

What's important is you started this discussion, and pm ed Caedes, I personally believe he is sick of this subject Raj.

Like you I too miss the C-index, and as you said we can rarely rely on friends comments for constructive feedback. To be honest I see some flawed images of friends, and simply don't have the heart to make a negative comment.

I'm sure Caedes has noted your pm, and has briefly visited this column but I doubt things will change.

If you want an honest opinion on your work to help you mature, and grow as a photographer why don't you do what Chris suggested early in this discussion, and type honest critique welcomed at the end of your narrative.

Nik also made a good suggestion, why don't you join a professional photography website where you can gain honest feedback from keen amateur/professional photographers. Your find it refreshing, and they often run competitions where photography equipment can be won, it will give you real targets to aim for, and help you grow I'm sure.

Edit

Oh btw I've just discovered this thread . > EVERYBODY CLICK HERE < . I think this is the thread v Lyn v is talking about below me.

I think what is also important to note is that on may 4th Les +purmusic drew our attention to the fact that the Poll has a new item
"Re-introduce a scoring system for images."
I believe the discussion has restarted because of this.

Quoting from that post

""Why?

1) Feedback to artists.

2) Ranking would allow for better sorting/selections for "Featured Images" on the front page of site.

3) Members might end up investing more in the site if the functionality/option was operating in some shape or form, once again. (I.e. Spending more time on site, increase page views per, et al.)"

LE :)

all i know is when it was more a "people sharing info site" the place seemed to pick up once it became a "im the top dog site" it seemed to drop off. sharing info seems to draw,competition seems repel.

When I joined here there was healthy competition and 150+ new images each day.
Take a look at the number of new images per day now that there is no competition.
I agree that info sharing is good. From a purely personal perspective I have noticed little difference in that aspect, except that some of those who were willing and able to help have left the site.
Those who are still here and prepared to share their knowledge will do so regardless of competition or not.

competition heres never been healthy as far as the info sharin depends on your craft.

If you know half as much about your own craft as you think you do about everything else under the sun, and would be prepared to share your info then we would all be learning a great deal from you.
So how about sharing your knowledge in a more constructive way??
Unless you are just too much of a self professed 'top dog' to be bothered helping anyone else.

i just used all my creds lets see if we can get this puppy up to 100

LOL2112 . . . For goodness sake - how old are you? You are acting like a 7 year old with a problem. Or maybe you are old enough to be in your second childhood. Whatever, why don't you do something constructive just for a change.
Your multiple creds (17 I think)are wasted btw.Have you nothing better to do?

Battle of the creds,and you say im a child.look 3 above then pop over to the hoot thread.cred central.