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Hey, I really think that the "Snap-shot" rule for photography should also extend (to an extent) to the fractal gallery. Not to insult anyone, but I've really noticed that there are fractal images that litterally just pop out of the program without any layering or manipulation done to them.

Seems to me that when a fractal is Just out of the program, it is basically a snap-shot of the formula. Maybe there should be something of mention here?

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i fully agree.. many low quality, simple fractals are being uploaded that do not have much in the line of artistic value.. uploading these should be as discouraged as are snap-shot photos.

could you be more specific with what you mean by "snapshot fractals"... you can get a good fractal from eg. apophysis without manipulation or layering.. so you cant really say "without" layering or manipulation.. if you look some of the artists are just starting out in fractals, so they are trying the program.. remember when you guys were just starting out? you had basically the same kind of work... Im sorry but i dont agree with you on this one.. anyway.. if its not "good quality" as you say.. it wont be put into a permanent gallery..

if i wanted to, i could come up with a number of images that in my mind should not be in the permanent galleries. and yes, when i first started out, my images were nothing great, but were eventually deleted, unlike many of the images myself and dave are talking about.

I could come up with some too.. but thats not the issue here.. and im not going to go into that.. but as you said and i quote "my images were nothing great, but were eventually deleted" dont you think the beginners deserve that chance too.... If the work is not "up to standard" maybe some of the "experts" could give them a guiding hand and suggest.. things like... "if you move or tug the triangles, or click random a few times... you may discover different flames and images.." just my opinion.. i just think the ones you are refering to should be given a chance to show their work even if it is "low quality".. they will improve... we all started off like this... and we all improved... we all got images deleted.. its all part of caedes life and learning... I think a lot forget what their art was like when they first ever created something .... maybe we need to remember that and encourage instead of discourage... As I said thats just my opinion a tiny drop in a big ocean....

I totally agree with what Dave and Andy said. I brought this up in the original snapshot discussion. As it is now (if I understand it right) you are allowed to have your snapshots in the new gallery like any other artworks.

It's just *very* unlikely you will make it to the permanent gallery. I'm personally thinking you could be a bit harder on those kind of submissions and maybe remove them after one month (no matter ratings) instead of three as I believe is the norm for the new images gallery.

This leaves more then enough room for newbies to get feedback from the more experienced and gifted people like for instance those that started this thread. :) I too see the value in this, and would not mind getting more constructive critique from all the talented artists here. Don't we all need that?

Certainly the snapshot policy should apply to the fractal gallery and others too, such as 3D. We've all seen boring default Terragen or Bryce images. 'Oooh! Look at the nice reflective spheres and toruses floating in between the sea and the sky.'

I guess that as Klas says they (hopefully) wouldn't make it to the permanent galleries though.

agreed

Well I've just seen quite a bit of repetative "snapshot" fractals and I think that to do fractal art they should be manipulated in some way. Like Jacqueline's Waterfall and Indian Chief images. Fractals alone are nothing but graphical representations of formulas. It's the artist that has to convince us that it is art. It just seems like I am seeing these Classic apophysis (and other porgrams) fractals that are merly "Snapshots" of a formula.

i agree,the repetition in those galleries gets old, even tho one of my favorite 3d images of all time is one of Samatars of a spiked reflective sphere floating in the middle of a bryce sky - go figure
Although, As long as those images dont make it into the permanent gallery then no harm done.

Oh but some have...

Hey co2metal you made a mistake when you posted the link above,the reason I say that is I clicked on it and it didn't take me to my gallery.HaHaHaHa just kidding.I totally agree if a minimum amount of time is spent then a minimum amount of space on the site should be allotted to them.The only problem is everyone has to start somewhere and that is why I would really hate to see these types of picture not allowed any more.If simple pics weren't allowed when I first started uploading pictures I probably wouldn't have improved any,because mine were pathetically simple and sucked really bad.If it wasn't for Caedes removing them almost as fast I uploaded them and letting me know he thought I could do better I might not have ever improved.Maybe rather than not allowing these types of pics maybe there could be a beginners gallery just for the newbies to put their stuff so it don't overrun the main new gallery.

Again we are back to a money issue. Some people can afford expensive photoshop manipulaters. SOME OF US CANNOT!!!!! What programs I have are the ones that come for free. I keep wondering what the agenda is here. Is it to remove everyone elses images but your own?? I agree not all fractal images are very good, not even my own, but I have been doing this for only a month and do not have money for fancy programs to manipulate with, even if I wanted to.. I truly enjoy the fractals the way they come from the program. They are a continual surprise to me. If you don't like them. Don't look at them!!!!! Go on to the next image.

I think the point that is trying to be made is push a button save to jpeg then upload, no thought,no effort,no time invested in the project at hand.The issue isn't about the software its about users posting to be posting just so they have a gallery.
Here is one of the first fractals that I did,I thought it was so good that I proceeded to upload it in a variety of colors if I remember right around 7 or 8 of them in all.

I understand. I work with Tierazon because it gives me a way to manipulate within the program. I my work for three or four hours and come up with nothing I deem worth posting and then other times I might come up with several in less than an hour. It all depends on which formulas Ichoose and in which order. since I donot keep a record of this it is never the same. I sometimes take a fractal into my Pictureit program and addor change colors or sometimes add lettering. Anything else is beyond me yet. Give me time.

Well, The alternative to the expensive Photoshop is "The Gimp", free and has most of the features photoshop has. All it takes is some time and effort to learn the software, and you can turn a snapshot of a fractal into something unique. I really like tbob's suggestion that we could add a beginners gallery, and a person should be able to choose to upload to that gallery if they want some useful feedback. I just think that the perminent gallery should be something to work hard for.

I think that if you take the time it took to find a neat looking fractal, and subtract it from the time you worked on it, then that's pretty much how long it took you to make a fractal. Again, please don't think I am trying to attack anyone, but it just seems that there could be a little gallry like tbob said for the beginners. I would love to share my thoughts and experiences in helping them manipulate fractals.

Finally... well done Bob... so very right a beginners is a great idea... i just feel that most have forgotten how it was when they started out.. and that the beginners need to be given a fair go just like we all were.... a beginners gallery is a good idea as long as the "experts" will support them and offer help .....

Morwyn... all the work i did on eg.. Indian Spirit was done by freeware... the background was created in Universe.. the feathers were made in apophysis (which took me hours) and the indian was a statue that my cousin made which i took a pic of...then blended together.. there are a lot of free trial programs that have a 30day try.... and as Dave said Gimp is a free one.. and Picture It (that you have) can do blending etc.. so you dont really need anything else...

I dont think you need to add anything to your fractals... they are beautiful on their own.. :D
Dave and Andy are referring to mainly Apophysis images....

Yes, beginner's gallery is a neat idea

I have been known to occasionally slash my way through the fractal gallery with a bloodied scythe; perhaps it's time again... *begins sharpening blade*

I agree with it too, I certainly would have began there!:0))!(kudozs for the beginner's gallery)

now I just hope this got communicated to Caedes >_>

No need. He is omnipresent.

I have one more thng to say and then I will let ths drop. Setting up a beginners gallery sounds on the surface like a good idea, but in fact is not. It sets beginners apart and a gallery like that is not likely to get the views that are gotten in the new images gallery. This is a very exculsionary idea. I will never beleive it is a good one. To say that beginners don't deserve the same chance to show their works in the new images gallery and get the same chance at views, downloads and votes as everyone else is very exclusionary. I still say if an image doesn't interest you in the thumbs, then go on to the next. That is what I do.

well how i understood it is that they can have a choice of where to submit their images. if they are in fact new and open to help, they can upload to the beginners gallery where helpful members would give advice. if they think their work is good enough, they can submit it into the normal gallery. is this the idea?

but wont the images go into new images first??? then go into the beginners gallery??

instead of new images i think they would go straight to the beginners gallery..

I think it is far better to get noticed by trying to creating a unique picture rather than to saturate the new images gallery with as many So-So picture as you can crank out and upload per day.

Agreed.

Well I think it would be extremely simple to have a choice over where the image goes when you upload it. If you choose for it to be in the Beginners gallery, then it will go straight there, if it is something else, then it goes to the new images gallery.

Morwyn: We aren't suggesting that the Beginner gallery is something mandatory. It is almost impossible to determine if someone is new at graphics since this is an anonymous world. Also, being a beginner is not something that anyone should be ashamed of....Heck I will admit to being a beginner.

It has nothing to do with my images, as I soon will be uploading as many photos as fractals, it has to do with creating classes of contributers that worries me. I think of someone believes they have to upload to a beginners gallery just because they are a beginner, they will not be as likely to contribute at all. I am more that happy to listen to suggestions and accept help. Most beginners are.. That is not the probelm.. I guess I have seen too much of what isolaton can do, to be comfortable with it. If voluntary is the word, that helps, but not cures the suggestion. It is still a form of separation. Of discrimination. I am a firm beleiver in integration.

well maybe the name can be changed from beginners gallery to the Advice gallery or something.. it is just for them to let people know they are open to suggestions, and a place where the experienced members would feel free to say what they want to help them. it doesnt necessarily have to do with being a beginner, it's just for people who want the help. i think it is a very good idea.

Thank you Co2Metal. Maybe we are misunderstanding because of the word "Beginner". There should be a gallery that you can upload to that maybe wouldn't be in the perminent gallery as the New images gallery would. Might sound bad, but Honestly if I have an unfinished work or a Snapshot fractal that I think has potential, I would upload it to there and get advice. I don't want to waiste room on the new images gallery on an image that I am not finished with. Maybe a gallery that only Members can view? Whatever it is, I just think that it would benefit those who want to learn without public display.

Yes, a good idea. I often create an image and then get stuck for that certain 'je ne sais quoi'. A place to upload images where you are specifically inviting constructive advice to help you improve your artistic skills sounds like a good thing.

At the moment we all submit images to the 'new images' category which means that (whether you intend it or not) we are saying "I'm putting this forward for inclusion in the permanent galleries".

<soapbox>

Well, ... If anybody is interested ... I vote NO on a beginners gallery of any sort. That is what the "new images" gallery serves as. There is no point in making somebody sit at the kiddies table and feel unwelcome ... If they want, and are open, to criticism or guidance, they can ask, plead for it. And, as far as whining that images you don't deem worthy have made it into the permafrost galleries ... somebody made that decision. That is how the site works ... there is a scoring system, but HUMANS still make the tough decisions.

Are there art submissions of lesser quality than others? .. probably ... Beevis and Butthead once said .. "You gotta have stuff that sucks in order to have stuff that's cool" ... There is little to be gained by adding layers of bureaucracy. ... If you want to streamline the 'deletion process' .. shorten the time span ... there is currently 262 pages in the new images gallery ... you could probably shorten that to 260 ... or a number of your choosing.

Perhaps the "caedes cadre" could receive an additional benefit ... a "kill filter" so they don't have to view that which they deem unwashed.

</soapbox>

Keifer read Co2Metal's last comment here, that should clear it up.

Please try not to get hung up on tiny details like the definition of the word "Beginner"...

understand the concept of it geez. It wasn't suggested that a new person would be restricted to that gallery.

Firstly, if an image isn't good enough to be kept on the site it will be deleted. All of the suggested 'snapshot fractals' are parts of this class. And so it shouldn't and won't matter at all in the long run. Also as others have said, most snapshot fractals are made from noobs to a particular program and those are the people who could benefit most from critiques. That is the way to fix the influx of 'snapshot' fractals not just immediately delete them. I also prefer that the democratic community of caedes decide if an image is good enough to be kept or not rather than a select group to decide if it's worthy of the community.

Secondly, I don't like the 'beginner' gallery either...

We're all looking for critique from this site. None of us are perfect in our artistry and we all need and could benefit from advice. Therefore, splitting up novices to a particular program and advanced users seems to be counterintuitive, since we all can benefit from critique and learning.

geez ... read my comment .. there is NO need for anything to be changed ... shorten the page count .... and you can stand at the cliff edge and watch as the undeserving fall to their death

bring popcorn

it is not about "splitting up" novices and advanced users. it is simply a place for users, not only beginners but maybe even experts, to upload their images that they aren't sure about and get straight-forward comments and help on their work. to me, when i view images in the main gallery, i am sometimes not comfortable leaving constructive criticism because i don't want any hard feelings.. uploading to this new gallery would say that you do invite any kinds of criticism and comments. for example. i might not be sure about an image, so i would upload to that gallery for the sole purpose of getting advice.. then afterwards i would upload the image to the main gallery. do you understand? it is not a "beginner" gallery, more like an "advice forum"

Yes, that was my understanding. If users don't like it, then they don't have to upload to that gallery.

Great ... but that's not what the thread started out as .. You didn't wish to be tainted by low quality works ... let's be honest

co2: ... "i fully agree.. many low quality, simple fractals are being uploaded that do not have much in the line of artistic value.. uploading these should be as discouraged as are snap-shot photos"

And to criticize a fractal because it comes straight from a program with no augmentation by the user is to cast a black shadow on all photographers that have raised a camera to their eye and pushed a button .. freezing what 'mother nature' put before them in a fraction of a second. .... The Fractaler has put far more effort into their work regardless of your view of its merits. ... sure, there is skill in photography ... but not all quality photos were bled for.

all you need to do is ask for crits instead of ... "enjoy" .. Deviant Art (for example) has a multi-level toggle for what level of criticism you wish to recieve ... Caedes could place such a toggle ... it could trigger some FLASHING NEON SIGN .. that says HEY ... tear me up

I think, possibly, some have lost sight of what "community' means (ie .. Sharing, participation, and fellowship)

yes it did start out as that, but as these threads go, they change over time.. instead of the focus being on simply discouraging people from posting such images, we came up with an idea to help them along which is obviously better.. some sort of system like you described might also help.

I actually agree highly that I really hesitate to give constructive criticism on images in the new images gallery. I really water them down so that it might not effect the general public's oppinion about them.

I think if we did have a closed Caedes member gallery that can only be seen by us, then it should encourage more useful criticism. I know some useful criticism's exist, but I think that if there was a closed gallery, than it should make members more apt to share their thoughts.

Let's not call it a beginners gallery anymore...let's give it another name that won't spark confusion..

how about...."Experimental Gallery"?

I agree :D
A lot of fractals dont look very sophisticated enough, like they were created in 2 minutes...which really isn't doing this site any good...as an artists' site, I think only top quality fractals that have had time taken over them and maybe had a few tweaks here and there for improvement and artistry should be submitted by members...I apologise if any of my fractals apply to this - though I know my first upload was pretty awful, but I was desperate to put something on!...lol...it won't get into the permanent galleries anyway, lol...by the way...no offence meant!!
*hopes none of other own fractals are too naff for professional site* :)

I think Caedes has a forum here that works for both beginners and more experienced artists. (I still categorize myself in the first category - beginner.) Romane brought up the analogy of opal mining in an earlier, similar discussion. The jewels basically end up in the permenant galleries. Those who are eager to mine the new images gallery may have to sift through some dirt to find the jewels there. I know I've appreciated the feedback I've gotten on some pretty poor images. Thanks for posting them anyway - I never would have learned otherwise.

"it is not about "splitting up" novices and advanced users." -co2metal
~I was attempting to make two or three points and probably didn't do as well as I could of...but alas it was 2AM. A) When confronted with a choice, especially when first uploading, there is a worry that you're not as good as the especially talented caedens we have here. Therefore, they'll want to group themselves into an advice/noob/whatever gallery if given the chance. It will on it's own split up the community. The title isn't needed. :)...and B) everyone wants criticism...creating a criticism gallery is counterintuitive because everyone will want to upload there...thus compromising the current gallery hierarchy...and C) Caedes has designed well, people are learning and therefore nothing really needs to be done...so no change is necessarily needed.

That being said it really doesn't matter either way. I may just be in an argumenative mood or something. :S

this is my final post.

First of all, since the gallery would be CLOSED, than not everyone would want to upload everything there, it is intended that possibly unfinished works would go there so you can get constructive criticism that is not seen by the general public. Therefore when you create something that you feel is a finished work, then you would want to upload it to the normal galleries so EVERYONE can see it. But I don't think this post is going anywhere so this is why this is my last post.