Just recieved word that my repost of my pic of my dog that I reframed and uploaded this evening will have to be pulled because " people are raising such a stink about reposts." Some trigger happy monitor pulled the pic the first time after about a week and now, after I spent a lot of time reworking it in a frame, I'm told it will have to be pulled. Ladies and gentlemen, up until this moment I've found this site delightful. Suddenly, the POLITICS here have given me a bad case of indigestion and I felt a need to regurgitate it here for your perusal. Thanks.
Wen

Politics... call it what you will. We don't want you to continue to upload the same images over and over again. The first time you uploaded it, it was a snapshot of your dog. The second time you uploaded it, it is the same snapshot of your dog only now with a border around the photo. In our opinion this makes it the same basic photo and constitutes a repost. We do not allow reposts because it wastes resources which could be used for new images. We want to encourage you to grow in your artistic talent, and we don't feel like posting the same images over and over agin is the way to do that.

This is a digital shot of my dog that I worked in photoshop, Caedes. It is NOT a mere "snapshot" of my dog...never was. The original shot had a table sitting in the back of the dog. I took it into photoshop and removed the table, among other things. Again, whoever yanked it initially, was too quick to do so, IMO. I took another picture of my dog with the same digital camera the same day and that photo is still up...both pics were basically of the same quality. So, caedes, with all due respect, what you deride as a "snapshot" was no more a "SNAPSHOT" than a lot of other photos here and I regret that you were so quick to pull it. The point that several are making in this discussion is that framing often changes the look of the same image. There are countless images here that have framed and unframed versions. Some like them better with the frame and others don't. The frame itself requires creative work. So, yes, I call it "politics" because there are many images that are uploaded with little more change than a frame and both versions are allowed to be posted.
Wen

Perhapse you've not read the official caedes.net definition of "snapshot," I'll give you a chance to do that now. Also keep in mind that you've agreed to the Code of Conduct before uploading the image. It basically says that having your images featured here is a priviledge, not a right, and that I can remove images for any reason.

Well this site has a need from both side because it wouldnt be a site with images if no one take pictures or make fractals and put them here..So i think its a priviledge for Caedes to have so many great artists here as well...
Add this Rule to the Code of conduct:Reposting is not allowed. End of story!!

Actually, Tommy, the CoC has been updated, probably by the time you posted. It now contains the text: "Once an image has been uploaded to the site it should not be uploaded again unless substantial changes have been made to it. These changes should be enough so that it could be reasonably assumed that the resulting changed image would receive a better critique than the previous version."

Good that it has now been added.. i just hope that it is followed through.. so does that mean that images that are first uploaded WITHOUT a border, then they are uploaded WITH a border .. the border image is not allowed?

Sorry Wendy that your image was removed... the point i was making with the other discussion was that others were doing exactly the same thing and nothing removed... I found it unfair... now that Caedes has added to the CoC that should bring all into line regardless of who they are...

I was going to edit what I'd posted above but I stepped away and this may have been missed.
Jacqueline: If you're worried about the rules not being enforced, you can always help us out and alert a mod when you see something that we've missed. You seem to be very sure of some recent reposts, but I have no idea what they would be, and I assume the same goes for the other mods if they haven't been pulled due to this fiasco.

Wendy: I've already read somewhere that you say that the photo we're discussing (which I will have to assume is "Favorite Toy") spent two weeks in the new images gallery. The current policy, on the upload page, is that "...uploading non-artistic snapshot images is strongly discouraged". This is discouraged by removing "snapshots" after about 2 weeks. If you've missed the definition of a snapshot with reference to this site, here is a direct link, also linked from the upload page. As you say, "I took another picture of my dog with the same digital camera the same day and that photo is still up...both pics were basically of the same quality". They may be of the same quality at a pixel level, but at the artistic level, of the image as a whole, it's clear that "Summer Thoughts" is vastly superior. "Summer Thoughts" is a very nice portrait of a fine-looking dog, which I'm sure many dog owners, particularly of pugs, can appreciate, whereas "Favorite Toy" is merely a cute shot of a cute pup. I hope you can see where we're coming from in defining one as a snapshot and not the other.

Well, I'll respond, now that caedes has seen fit to "put me in my place" and I've been scolded for uploading a "snapshot" - - the definition of which is STILL, in my view, somewhat in the eye of the beholder after reading the definition. From that definition, there are a number of shots in the permanent pet gallery that should probably be pulled, but, of course, that's not my call, and I, personally, like the fact that a few shots that members hold dear are allowed to stay, whether they have much "artistic" value or not.

NOTE: I could really care less about "Favorite Toy" per se with respect to weather it's allowed to stay up for a few weeks or not. That's not why I pursued this discussion. Frankly, I find the following statement about as condescending as you can get: " You might think that since you love looking at their photos all day long (on your desktop) that surely others would like to as well. Well guess what, you're probably wrong. Pet photos have only a slightly higher "stomach factor" than photos of people..." That's taken from the current policy to which Mike was kind enough to provide a link (thanks, Mike.)

Just to clarify, I didn't upload "Favorite Toy" because it was a picture of a "cute pup." I loaded it because of Koda's "favorite toy," which is toilet paper rolls. In fact, he managed (I don't know how) to gain access to two more FULL rolls yesterday and to make a mess all over my house (sorry to bore you with details of my mundane life, but I wanted to put my comments in context). The "favorite toy" theme tied to something I'm sure many dog owners and PARENTS, for the matter, can relate to - - you can fill the house with expensive toys but the dog (and kids) will still zero in on the toilet paper roll (in reality and metaphorically.) THAT was the point of "favorite toy" and still is - - NOT the fact that Koda is a "cute pup." But, as I said, it's not the photo per se that upset me...Like, Jacqueline tried to say, it's the principle of the thing.

OK, I'll get off my soapbox now. Thanks for listening. I do respect the "rules" here and value being able to participate in this community. BTW, while it's not much, I did donate a little money to help further this site (and plan to continue to do so if I stick around) and regret that caedes felt the need to "pull rank" and inform me that I don't have a "right" to post here....Oh, well, live and learn. I'll be good now.
Wen

To Xentrix: I think its a good decision and will prevent Caedes from beeing attacked by unsatisfied artists in the future...maybe it could be even more clear what Caedes meant with substantial changes because it can be a very subjective matter ( What i have noticed)
But i'm satisfied so far....Thanks!

It is a subjective decision. There is no way to get around it.

I know...As long as people knows what rules they are supposed to follow and what kind of policy Caedes has it shouldn't be a major problem..

Thankyou Caedes for adding the rule... I know I have upset quite a few people on here by bringing this up... especially those who have stated that they are going to repost ALL of their images.... but then I have had a huge response from people thanking me for bringing it to light.. and solving the mystery of some as to why their work was removed.. quite a lot of members were unaware that it was not allowed.... The rule needed to be added so that everyone will be equal...
My opinion for definition of reworking to be accepted should be : The original image itself has been changed, things added or removed on the image and collaborations...

I am more than satisfied with the results.. and I thankyou Caedes and your Mods for agreeing to add the rule to the Code Of Conduct....

I will now put this discussion to rest... THANKYOU

well this is an interesting and heated discussion...

In my oppinion, borders do not make an image artistic at all...I mean, the only thing I use them for is just to narrow vision and try to control where the focal point is. I havn't seen your image, but let me ask you this,
Do you, honestly, believe that you have made a great effort in turning an ordinary snapshot of your dog into a work of art? Borders, I believe, do not make an image in anyway more or less artistic. Did you really put alot of thought into the composition, color, and potential for manipulation in the photo you took? If you truely believe that your image was worthy to be called art, and that people would like to have it as their desktop, than by all means stand on your position. This IS an art site, and you should remember that there is quite a bit of "competition" in the photo/manip galleries. Also, art is probably as subjective as you can get. I mean, it takes a real fractal artist mind to know the difference between fractal ART and "snapshot" fractals, and drawing that line is difficult. You did agree to those terms when you uploaded, and you should be glad that you are able to upload anything at all. I couldn't imagine how much resources this server is costing caedes, so if they want to delete any of my images for any reason, I could really care less and focus more on what I can do to make my images more permanent.

As you said, Dave, you didn't see the image, so you really don't have a basis to conclude that the frame did nothing for the image. Fact is, I took a copy of the dog's face from the photo, sized it, and copied it so that it surrounded the frame, and rotated each copied face so that it faced center. Then I place a decorative frame in back of this, embossed the faces on the frame and covered the frame with a color filter. In my opinion, it DID enhance the looks of the presentation and the photograph of dog was quite good to begin with. If you're gonna comment, it would be nice if you knew what you were talking about. Enough said.
Wen

Well now that I have an idea...great! But if you read into my comment, all I really wanted to know was if you really believed that it was an artistic piece rather than a snapshot. From what you just said, it seems like you put a lot of work into it and not just the borders, so I'm sorry to hear that your image was removed. And as a member of caedes for more than a year...yes I have learned a few things and have had my encounters with image deletions myself...so I believe that I do know what I'm talking about. I did not base my comment upon viewing your image, obviously because I havn't seen it. I just wanted to know if you really though it was artistic over snapshot

I suppose that from this discussion, I've learned that you have to be extremely careful in making sure the original work looks absolutely NOTHING like the rework.

If you believe it is worthy of being called art, I'm interested in seeing it..

And what I meant about the borders was just a general statement. I was more refering to the images where it's just Photo+Border and that's it. Obviously you went through a more elaborate process to make that border add an artistic element. Sorry for the misunderstanding

If I didn't believe it was an artistic piece, I wouldn't have posted it, Dave. Whether you realize it or not, you've got a real condescending style . . .As I said earlier in this discussion, I'll get over my photo being pulled, but I did a lot of work on that frame and I've got enough "art sense" to know that it was a fairly decent photo. I'm not a professional photographer, but I am a professional videographer and I wouldn't have posted a crummy "snapshot" of my dog. This was a FRAME and it constituted an important part of the image. There's a difference between a frame and a border. The image all told had 20+ layers. I didn't expect that it would become a permanent image - - it wasn't that good - - but it was good enough to be up for a few weeks and it wasn't simply a REPOST of the previous picture. So, when I got a note from a moderator that they'd have to pull my photo because a lot of people were "raising a stink about reposts," it ticked me off and that prompted this discussion. Life goes on . . . it just ticked me off. I'm back trying to figure out how the heck to use VUE. <G>
Wen

i never saw the shot you posted wen, and I think this is a bigger matter anyway. I think that the snapshot policy should indeed be more inforced than it has in the past. I also think that the quality of photos that make it into the permanent gallery needs to be more strict too. Again, i never saw the picture and i dont know whethere i would have deemed it a snapshot or not... im speaking in general.
And it IS true that when you agree to the code of conduct that you are subject to the what the moderators think.

I believe Dave has brought up an interesting point that isn't really talked about much here: "snapshot" fractals. To be honest, it looks like some people just make a random batch (and then usually spiralize it), then just render it, without any editing. I'm not trying to offend anyone, and I know some fractals look like this, but were really worked on awhile.

agreed

What it really comes down to is that its Caede's site, and if he thinks its a snapshot, then he has the right to remove it, just like you would if it was your site.
just my 2 cents.

peace.

vlad

Excuse me, but who said that Caedes didn't have the "right" to remove any image he wants? Just because he has the "right" to, doesn't necessarily mean that it's always a good call to do so. Caedes has put together a wonderful site here - - no ifs, ands or buts about that. Part of what makes it wonderful is that participants can speak their mind and offer suggestions, as well as criticisms. No one is trying to take Caedes' "rights" away.
Wen

Can we please let this thread die? I don't think we're going to get any closer to resolving the issue than getting Caedes to change the Code of Coduct as he has done. The vitriole that keeps coming out in the posts on this thread as well as in the "Reposting" thread isn't helping anyone, and it's hurting a lot of people's feelings. This turnip has been squeezed until the last drop of blood has come out of it, and there has been too much of that.

i agree with you Regmar,but at the same time i think WENPEDER needs some kind of acknowledge so she feel that someone really got her point...
So Wen...I share some of your thoughts about the subjective aspects in art....I dont think we can get around it but i definately think we should be able to talk about it.
It is also sometimes easy to get hunged up in a subject when we dont feel that people listen to and understands us. Clear rules is for me the best way to make people to understand what kind of policy we're supposed to follow, If their still something thats not clear maybe thats the things that rules cant control, The subjective thinking and so on...
But i wont tell u to stop talking, I only hope that u will find new inspiration to continue to post your images here. In case u lost it?
Take Care!

If you're going insane about politics on this site, then you've got bigger fish to fry. Please, for the sake of humanity, remember that this is just a web site, and your photographs not being accepted to it is not the most important thing in the world to be angry about, not even for ten minutes.

Go outside, breathe the fresh sunlight, and *take* photographs. If you think they're good enough to share with the world, then share them for the world's sake -- not your own.

Well i think we can share them for our own sake too because we belongs to the world.
;-)

Yes Tommy, I understand your point, and I too value clear rules, but I think that we've all staked out positions which are intractible, and further discussion of the matter is not going to change anyone's minds. What it will (continue to) do is to cause people who are otherwise friends to get dragged into a fight that is not of their making and which cannot be resolved here and now. Please my friend let's take this up another time after we have all had a chance to relax and put the anger away where it belongs.

Then STOP adding to the thread, already! I think people are being a bit melodramatic here. A moderator pulled one of my images, I wasn't happy about it, I let off steam here and some people seem unable to accept the FACT that sometimes in life people disagree. For heaven's sake...what IS the big deal? I got over this some time ago but it seems that others are intent on bringing "the sake of humanity" into it and suggesting that my initial complaint suggests that I'm "going insane." LOL! Unbelievable! It is NOT the end of the world if people get upset and disagree once in a while. I don't hate anyone here. In fact, I admire people for asserting themselves. I appreciate you trying to play peacemaker, reg, but, fact is, from MY angle anyway, there is not big war going on here. We're all big people and the thread will die when people stop adding to it. Wen

irony - its a wonderful thing...

I agree with you Wen...This is not a big deal or i dont feel any hate for anyone here, mostly i smile when i read the posts here so im totally fine with this.
I know Jacqueline WAS pissed and if someone has been hurted for anything she said i guess then its a good idea to take it private with her.
Im a little afraid of this kind of "stop talking" idea because it might be more like that people take out their anger with bad votings or other covert things instead
I prefer an open and clear discussion about whatever it might be so people can take out whatever they need of their systems, for me thats the whole idea with a discussion Board. And It will take the time needed ,then it will die by itself.
"Things that dont kills you only makes u stronger"

Looks like you might be right, Tommy. Scionlord just sent me a Personal Message informing me that he had sent me an "evil icon," stating that "it looks like you might need one." I checked my email and, sure enough, he had gone to the trouble of altering my icon to give it glowing red evil eyes. Sad. I prefer an open and clear discussion as well, tommy, and regret any hard feelings that have been generated here.
Wen

*raises eyebrows* Obviously my sense of humour is a little wyrd. It was meant as a joke. *puts battle armour back on*

As I said in my message back to you, it was a bit hard to tell from your brief comment that you intent was anything other than vindictive but, if you say it was meant to be light hearted humor, fine, I'll accept that. No armour is necessary, though I must say that I felt like I better try to locate some after I got your note....<G>
Wen

Wendy, there is a big war going on here. I wonder why you haven't realized it?

Christ. Take a deep breath everyone.

Sigh...Sorry, Reg...I see no "war." I see a handful of people having a RELATIVELY small disagreement. Again, I regret any hard feelings generated by this dispute. But, a "WAR?" Not from my angle. Perhaps from yours.
Wen

When things are in all capitals, it IS "WAR". ;-)

You type your voice on the net, and it is heard how you type it, so be careful.

Good grief - we haven’t had one of these discussions for a while - taking a big spiral/plummet into banality in a seemingly endless loop of crap going on and on and on and on and on and on and on.........

*goes to bar to get a drink...raises eyebrow at barman*

What is the point to have a DB if people cant be free to speak as long as they want?
I dont really understand this touchy reactions about Wendys opinion?
Let her talk as long as she want to, obviously its something she need to take out of her system so why try to stop her all the time?

We dont need policemen that tolds us to shut up, this is a free forum and anyone who dont like to add something to this discussion is also free to not do it or even read it.
But only get in here without any substance and make irony over what someone else says is for me the things that really creates bad feelings...
So if people have nothing to add to it or feel bored of it or whatever they can pick another subject that suits them better.

You're free to do anything you want. We're also free to think anything we want about you for it. We don't need policemen policemen to tell the policemen to shut up ;-)

Dr. Suess anyone? Who's going to watch the watch-watcher-watchers?

Oh the irony... over what someone else says... I am so not bored, and this subject suits me so nicely.

There, did I cover everything? I think so. So everyone can stop now. :)

this = for(int i; i < infinite-1; i++) {
crap.
}

Your Absolutely right about that your free to think what ever you want of me.Has anyone thought something else?
I dont take offend of it because i stand for my opinion and i only try to write it down here..
Instead of playing with principles about how we discuss maybe it would be more interesting with ideas or visions how we improve or change things so we get a better result from it...Its pity that we sometimes underestimate our own power to also help people to get out of their problems instead of just blaming them for having it.
Sometimes i get an interesting answer ,sometimes i get a play with words, and if people like it that way they will of course do it that way.
If people want to take something to a higher or a lower level that's of course their own choice.
Thats all yesterday news, i've seen it before and i will see it again.

Thread ... won't ... die, captain. Maybe ... more ... warp power ... or a phaser to the head - my head ... will relieve ... pressure. Oh ... the humanity!

Continued here: http://www.caedes.net/Zephir.cgi?lib=Board::Topic&id=441650

Old threads never die, they just take a nap until the next peson wakes them up.

If the image is framed, a re-make of a past image, then it should be considered a new image, like what Wendy said, some like it with the frame and some don't. But if the framed version and the original version were deleted from the site, there should be no reason for it to be uploaded.

There are the image mods, the people who keep the site up and running, but there aren't any people that can stop the re-uploading, there should be some people hired with that job. So many discussions about the same thing, something should be done about this or everyone should just forget about it.