Explain Please!!!
What exactly is a "Snapshot Fractal" and WHO do you believe is posting them?? I cannot imagine what you ae talking about.. I keep seeing these snide remarks and inuendos, by certain members.. I think some kind of explination is in order..

Well the fact is that no matter what form of art you are dealing with, there are people who are better than others, and people who spend time with their work and those who don't. With photography it is fairly easy to say what is a "snapshot" which doesn't really belong on this site.
Fractals are bit more subjective I supposed, but still there are clearly those people who just post junk and don't really care about, and people who don't care about their work really shouldn't be allowed to to take up space on the server when there are people who really are trying. And I'm not speaking of your work Morwyn, i think your stuff looks pretty nice.
But I think there should definatly be a "snapshot" policy for all areas of art, not just photography.

I think what they meant was quite specific to Apophysis, but it didn't come across as a particuarly snide remark to me.
I guess what they were edging towards was "people" not spending long enough working on the composition and uniqueness of an image, and maybe in their eyes the image was conjured up in a matter of minutes. This is all well and good if everyone was at the same level, but that's not the case. What may take someone of a higher level five minutes to create, may take someone else hours of experimenting, playing and generally learning what a program can do.
If people put more effort into commenting on the image and saying" maybe you can take this image to the next level by........yak, yak, yak! etc ", then the individual and overall standard would improve.
I'm up there with the laziest of non commentors, but then I don't complain about snapshot fractals! If your so bored with having to look at snapshot fractals then help the person along and offer them some of your knowledge instead of bringing it up in discussion board. If you really feel that the person is of a higher standard and not quite working to their full potential, tell them! more often than not they will take your critism and use it.
I've come a long way since joining Caedes over two years ago. I hope people joining now get the same chance I did and not experience too much elitism.....

Cheers.......

This is what I am talking about.. I keep seeing these complaints, but no one offering help to improve.. Maybe if the creators knew what was wrong with the image, they could learn and improve.. I have had some help but not nearly as much as I would like.. I have been an artist for many years, but computers are fairly new to me.. I would love to know more about how to control the programs I use.. Quit complaining about it and help that person learn!!!! You, Benroy are not one of the people I am talking about.. I have never seen you refer to anyones work as a snapshot fractal.. Complaining and not giving advice to help someone improve, is arrogance.

I wasn't talking about people who are trying at their work. And this is pretty well defined in the snapshot policy which should not only apply to photographers. If you were a photographer who maybe was not the best, but was striving to do well, your image would not be within the bounds that the snapshot policy condems. And again the same should apply to all forms of art.

Agree, it certainly shouldn't just apply to photographers. What it boils down to is an undefined area of competency versus effort. This should be judged by Caedes and the mods, with the outcome accepted gracefully without comment!
I have to say that a lot of my images are probably overated and i've struggled with any photographic images i've uploaded.
Is this a question of fractal artists not being subjected to the higher standard expected of photographers?

I agree, it does boil down to an undefined area of competency vs effort.
And yes, all the ares should be subjected to the same standard expected standard. Keep in mind that this website really was never meant for complete begginers; If you are able to learn something and improve, thats great (i certaintly think this website has helped me tons) but you can't expect the more talented artists to suffer because of the less talented. (ie, pushing pictures farther from the front page)

Well, Tony, I'm not sure where Picasso would have ended up on your so-called "expected standard." Art is a very subjective thing and I certainly don't feel equipped to judge "talent" with the degree of certainty that you seem to suggest is obvious. When you come up with a formula for what qualifies as "art" and what doesn't, please let us know, but, the so-called "snapshot" standard still involves a significant degree of subjectivity, whether you're talking about a photograph or a fractal - IMHO.
Wen

A Snapshot Fractal is basically a fractal that is created using the default settings of a fractal generator,no zooming no looking around to find a cool angle no nothing.Then once its done no smoothing out the gradients or any other post process work.Its not a matter of judging the talent its a matter of looking at the image and seeing little or no effort put into it.

I accept your definition of a "Snapshot Fractal".. I have never made something like that and neither has anyone else I know of.. Because this site does have members who are more knowledgeable in the ins and outs of programs, it just makes sense to me that more help would be offered on how these programs work. Nearly everything I have learned has been through trial and error.. Until a liittle over three years ago I had never even touched a computer.. What I am looking for its a less arrogant attitude towards newcomers and more assistance.. Certain members want to complain, but do nothing to assist.. None of the ones who have posted in this thread are on that list.. If the art posted offends, then complain to the mods.. That is what I have done and will do again.. Art is very subjective.. I see art of all genre that I cannot in all good concience call art.. If I don't like it I ignore it..

#1 Wen, I was the first to say that art IS subjective and #2 i never said that there was an easy way to judge that nor that I was qualified to do that. I said there should be a general rule to judge that by like the Snapshot policy. Please read what I post before you attack what i say.

I read your post, Tony....and I was responding to your suggestion that the "Snapshot policy" provides a clear standard to judge whether something is a "snapshot" or art. In my view, it doesn't. What might be a "snapshot" in the mind of one viewer might be a beautiful piece of art in the mind of another. That was my point and still is. The policy says that snapshots are basically discouraged here, but it doesn't really delineate what makes one picture a "snapshot" and another art and that means that, ultimately, it still comes down to the subjective judgement of the viewer.
Wen

Listen WENPEDER the reason things are "discouraged" rather than chiseled in stone is because there is such a wide array of people that post here.They range from inexperienced to advanced and if lets say the site didn't allow "snapshot" type images at all the beginners couldn't post.The minute you start making hardcore rules that don't bend and flex you wind up taking away someone's creativity.

All this talk about clear guidelines is very misguided in my opinion. With art, the only clear distinctions are things like "has the color red in it." Almost everything else is an exercise in nailing jello to the wall.

LOL! The last time I attemped to make Jello.....you COULD have nailed it to the wall! Even that could have been considered art! =0)

I have finally gotten the answer to exactly what is considered "Snapshot Fractals".... Now I would like to know just who it is that is posting the pesky things..
Jello is better in a bowl than on the wall..

I couldn't agree more that rules have to be flexible on a site such as this. That's why I was miffed when I got a note from a moderator telling me that she would have to pull one of my images because "so many people were raising a stink about reposts." The picture wasn't pulled because the moderator said it wasn't worthy on the art scale. It was pulled because a couple of people expressed frustration related to the inconsistent way that rules were enforced as it related to reposting images. Seems we've gone full circle here...First, I'm told, in essence, that "the rules are the rules - - get over it." Then I'm told that, "With art, the only clear distinctions are things like 'has the color red in it.' Almost everything else is an exercise in nailing jello to the wall." I've been saying all along that much of these distinctions and decisions are highly subjective in nature. It's precisely BECAUSE they are subjective in nature that people lock horns once in awhile. I don't think it can be avoided and the important thing is that people can talk about it when they disagree.
Wen

so i guess this post is settled now? =)

Sometimes we cant control everything around us, Sometimes its just to accept that lifes works that way....
We can still be satisfied with our own work ourself though, We can still see improvement in what we do...
Thats the important thing with creative actions besides not beeing too deathly serious about it, and most of all to have FUN with it.....

I still am not sure who is being accused of posting the pesky snapshot fractals..

YES! Another heated debate that will probably boil over into people insulting each other!
Just kidding, just kidding, don't hurt me.
Anyway, Morwyn, you really must have names...just look at some fractal snapshots and look who made it. If you can't find any, well thats actually good for you, because you don't find them to be of "snapshot quality".

I'd like to know who did the insulting. This is a very odd post - does it refer to something specific? It seems very disjointed.

I've seen plenty of snapshot fractals and other abstracts that look like someone just pressed a few filter buttons (hell, I've probably posted a few). It is also the case in the 3D arena - many images look like they were just developed using the basic shapes and textures. Having said when developing more complex images, I find they sometimes get lower votes. The basic eye-candy ones seem to be very well received. As has already been said on this post, I guess it is down to taste.

People have said above that 'snapshot' in photography' is easier to define and I think that's true. Other areas, like abstract and 3D are more difficult - partially I suspect because people have less experience in those areas, so perhaps don't realise how easy to reproduce that image is.

It's a tough one: as we have already discussed in many other threads, not everyone sees things the same. This is true of criticism - some people like it, others don't. I've posted suggestions on images before now of ways to possibly develop them and received some very negative replies.

I don't necessarily condone it if someone has commented on a 'snapshot fractal' without any further constructive comments. However, I can probably understand their frustration and also any reluctance to comment or help further. Once bitten, twice shy, after all.

I don't want anyone to think they can't post critisim on my images.. So long as it is ment to be helpful, I will gladly listen.. What I won't accept is the "That's a terrible image" , with no assistance offered.. You must also understand, I am limited by the programs I have available for use.. I do not have photoshop!!!!!!!!!!!!! For all image editing I use PictureIt 9pro, Photo Filter, and The Gimp.. Any assistance on how to use those programs to improve my images is welcomed.. Please...

Yes, simply negatively criticising an image with no further suggestions is not constructive.

I have already said this on another board, but I guess it belongs here:
Sometimes I wonder if people just run a random batch, then render it. Maybe about 1 in 30 random Apophysis renders look as if they were worked on awhile. Still, there isn't a random render that could have been made better through careful editing.
Edit: One more thing that is ticking me off: people use spiralize too much, I'm not saying it is bad. (I have posted a couple). I also think that some one can use spiralize all the time and still make great renders, and I won't complain. The thing that is ticking me off is when some on takes a mediocre render, then spiralizes it. It looks kinda cool, but its getting a little old. I probably shouldn't care, but I guess the fact that those images often get very high c-indexes. I know the c-index doesn't really matter (I haven't checked my Caedes Control in a week), but I guess its the principle of the thing.

I agree with what you are saying.

Very good, this is what I am trying to get across. Morpheus.. Your tutorial was wonderful.. It should be a great help to those who use apothysys.. I don't it takes too much time.. I can't have my only computer tied up for that long.. Has anyone any ideas for Chaoscope, Tierazon ,Fractal Explorer, Sterlingware, etc????

Dang...what did I miss? Where is this wonderful Apophysis tutorial that Morpheus provided? I'd love to see it. I need all the help I can get with that program! It takes me ages to develop nice flames with that program....I'd love to see Morpheus' tutorial.
Wen

Its in the new images, under tutorials. Or you could just browse my gallery. (Link in the sig).

I made a discussion about this some time ago...

The definition is extremely difficult to create because fractal art is difficult to even understand. To most people, fractals are this strange world of art and have no idea what goes into the creation of them. There are some really sophisticated programs out there such as Apophysis that create interesting flames with little to no work needed. Basically, Apophysis for example, creates flame fractals that look unique to apophysis itself. I could point out every single fractal created by Apophysis in any gallery of fractals I look at.

This is kind of what I mean by SnapShot fractals. When an experianced fractal artist can immediately tell that no additional manipulation to a fractal was done to it. Granted it may still look interesting, it still may be an image that little or no work was put into it. Every single one of my flame fractals was generated in a dull yellow gradient color and then further manipulated to get what I want.

To put it simply: Straight-from-the-program fractal.

Surely everyone here has gone through the stage of using some new fractal software, posting images that your proud of, then realising further down the line that they weren't that good! It's all part of the learning curve and I don't think we should be discouraging people. Why can't we let everyone discover things at their own pace, help them when it's needed and let the process of the new images gallery sort out the "Snapshot" fractals from the rest?

Thanks Ben.. That is just the point I have been trying to make.. I get so frustrated when I see someone comment in a thread about a "Snapshot Fractal".. I knew what they were talking about, and it is rude to make thse kinds of comments in any thread, with out offering help.. Most beginners are open to help, in fact crave it, especially from more experienced members.. I have been thrilled to recieve the help I have gotten.. It has helped me see what I am doing and how I can make my images better.. I really believe it it a form of arrogance to call someone hard work, "snapshot" and not offer help.. Send a PM and ask if they would like help.. I have done what I can to help new members, but I still consider myself a newcomer.. I have much to learn and welcome all the help I can get..

Well I'm sorry if I was offending in any way...and I never pointed out people or images as examples to what I meant. And I do agree that the new images process should screen them out. Only reason I said anything is because I spotted a few "snapshot fractals" in the permanent galleries and hopefully you can understand that for those of us who spent hours of work on an art piece, it almost makes the permanent gallery lose credibility. Of course I don't feel this way any more whatsoever. I see this site completely as a learning community (for the most part). Sorry if I offended anyone and please don't blow up at me :D

Good Point Benroy!

Ben, ya win a prize...very well said! I'm not here to decide whether or not someone is skilled enough or has devoted enough time to post what they post here. I'm here to share and to see what others have to share. I tend to zoom in on images that I like rather than those that do little for me, but what I see is a community of evolving artists, the vast majority of whom are devoting significant time and energy into the pieces that they post here. We all start somewhere and what's exciting about Caedes.net is how we can see our work and the work of others develop over time. That's exciting!

In my view, it's not necessarily how much blood, sweat and tears you put into a piece, though it's obvious that many here put a lot of time into their images. Ultimately, it's how the image looks. Some images come easier than others, but that doesn't make the ones that took less "work" necessarily inferior. Frankly, I don't like the whole "snapshot" concept for that reason. It's really a shorthand way of deriding someone's efforts, suggesting that they just lazily plopped something on a page that does not deserve serious consideration. Fact is, sometimes people spend considerable time on what some would label a "snapshot," and I wish there was a better word to refer to art that just doesn't quite pass the "art" test. I don't know what that word would be, however.
Wen

If I see a fractal that is interesting I might download it. I do not really care if it took 5 minutes or three hours. Art is not a timed hobby. Same as the C index, the number of downloads tell the story. If a item gets a lot of downloads it must be good. No downloads it must not be interesting.

chances are, if it is interesting, someone knew what they were doing when they made it.

Bullseye Wen!

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen..
Dave.. If you feel someones work is inferior, why don't you offer to help them learn to do better..

I have to say Dave has helped me A LOT in the past, and is being unfairly singled out here for no apparent reason. He has the right to his own opinion, like the rest of us. I do disagree with him on the theory of snapshot fractals and beginners but we're not going to fall out over it. He has a very good understanding of apophysis, and i can understand his point when saying in the permanent gallery there are images rated higher than his that do not show the same depth of knowledge and understanding of the program.
I'll be the first to hold my hand up and say a lot of my images are overated. Overall, fractal images seem to get a higher overall rating than the rest on the site.
Ask yourself, is the image really worth a 10? I save my tens for something that blows me away, makes me wonder how the hell did they get that from that program. Everytime I start something new, that's exactly what i'm trying to do, create something completely new and different from the rest. About 1 in 5 of my images gets uploaded to caedes. The rest are stored in my own personal gallery, for my eyes only! ( or a small entrance fee:))

To conclude this ramble, we should all get more selective of what we upload. Remember this is a representation of you. I try to keep my gallery full of works i am truely proud of, if after a period of time i'm not happy with a certain piece, it goes. Hopefully then this should really sort out the argument of snapshot fractals, if everyone's gallery is full of work they are truely proud of. How can anyone argue with that?

Cheers...........

I wont argue about peoples proud feelings, i want to gongratulate them for reaching a point where they are satisfied.Its hard sometimes to reach that point......

I am not trying to offend anyone with this discussion.. No one is being singled out by me.. I only asked if Dave could help those, whose images he thought were inferior.. I would love to have that kind of help.. I do not use apothosys.. I find the program ponderous and time consuming.. I have it on my computer and maybe someday I will experiment with it again.. I cannot let my computer run all night as it disturbs my mother who is 83 and not well.. I have always removed images, I felt were inferior as I learned to control the programs better.. Even ones which by some mistake, made it to the permanent galleries.. I have never uploaded an image I was not proud of, or was using to ask for help.. I spend a lot of time on my images.. More on my fractals than, on the photography.. I came into this knowing nothing.. I have learned, but I still have much more to learn.. I may be old, but my mind is still sharp.. I am insulted by those who can post in the DB about there being to many Snapshot Fractals but are unwilling to give assistance.. To constantly complain and do nothing to change, is just plain silly.. What I find beautiful and what others do, is totally different.. Everyone should have a chance with out the constant complaints. It is the complaints that offend me..

I'm NEVER completely satisfied, only for short periods of time. This is what keeps me motivated and continuing with this HOBBY I have.
Remember it is just a hobby, we are supposed to be having fun here. The day I stop having fun is the day i'll take up gardening........

I am never satisfied with mine either..This is why I continue to create.. I need to create.. I am having fun and will continue to do so for hopefully a long time to come.. Gardening is fun too... It is a little more than a hobby for me.. I am hoping someday to be able to sell some of my art, the way I do my jewelry.. It also fulfills a need to create beauty and this burning desire to learn.. I love this site and all it represents.. I just want the mal-contents to either put up or shut up..

I think there's about 3 discussions going on that have merged into one, but still under 3 different headings.
At some point we're going to have to agree that some people agree and some disagree. There's been some valuable points raised but these discussion should be left to sink to the bottom, for bored people to find at a later date.
It's way past my bedtime, and trying to type while the cat is walking on the keyboard is quite frustrating..............
I, for one, am calling a truce...........all in favour say AYE!

AYE! Goodnight, Ben! <G>
Wen

Aye.. Have a good sleep..

Yes, I think Ben made a good point about handing out 10's - it happens too much. Perhaps we need to be more honest with our voting and then people will know that a high score is really something special.

It's true that there are plenty of 'snapshot' images on the site (and, I agree, that term isn't perhaps the most constructive to use). Sadly, I think that the 'new images' filter doesn't seem to work as well as it might (no disrespect to the mods who work so hard). Similar to the point I made about 10's, if less images made it to the permanent galleries, then again it would be something really special.

I also agree about not being satisfied - I'm never satisfied with my work. In fact there are many pieces I do which never even see the light of day. I've deleted many of my own pieces and should probably delete even more. *sigh*

Having said all that, the initial topic is a valid one. There are images submitted that look like they have little merit. Given though that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it's a tough decision to make. Someone may have spent ages (partly perhaps due to their relative unfamiliarity with the medium) on a piece which to another member looks like junk. Again, I guess that it comes down to the permanent galleries 'barrier' - maybe we need to cull some more.

Perhaps we should set up a mutual 'honesty group' (like the 'please criticise me' initiative). Anyone who signs up gets to have the others say which images they think they should delete from their gallery (of course they wouldn't have to necessarily take the advice on board). This self-regulation would aid the mods in maintaining the galleries.

Thoughts?

It is not the place of the members to decide what images are worthy of the permanent galleries.. That is the business of the mods.. It is their decision as to how many are in those galleries... IT IS THEIR DESCISION!!!!! To constantly degrade others images without offering to help is beyond rudeness.. There is already a thread for artists to sign up, for honest evaluation of their images.. It is time to stop this foolishness and let the mods do their job without interferance from the rest of us.. As to how I vote.. That is no one elses business, either..

Amen! Morwyn! :c)

i fully agree... but the problem is that many here don't want the constructive criticism and get offended by it, or don't appreciate any help given. i've tried on many occasions to offer help to some, but i get no response, and mediocre image keep coming. a lot of it is that some peoples' egos get in the way of acknowledging that they could take some time and listen to what help some of us could offer and therefore improve.. and this has discouraged me from freely offering the constructive criticism that i normally would.

That people dont want our help is NOT a problem, it is a CHOICE!! The thing that makes it to a problem is when we dont accept other peoples choices...There are many ways to improve and maybe some people dont feel that Caedes is the best place for that.

It sounds like you're talking from an idea that you know whats the best for others? Why not let people improve in their on speed in the way they want to ?Whats the problem with that? Of course its nice to be the expert and telling people how they really should do things, so If that is the case why not focus on the people who really wants help and skip the rest? It doesnt seems to work so well for you anyhow so why not try another tactic?

Its nothing wrong to help people so dont get me wrong, but it seems that u have withdraw from it because of peoples unwillingness to be helped...Why take it so serious? Why not be glad for the ones who wants your help and dont feel wrong threated because of other peoples choice to say no thanks..
Maybe you make a problem of something that is a natural part of life? We have to face that people are different and not think in the same way as ourself...Right or wrong is not the issue, Its just how things works.

I don't take it seriously and I don't hold a grudge against people who don't respond.. and much of what i'm talking about is things like a very low resolution, noticeably bad quality, and similar things that everyone would agree on that should be improved, yet still these images keep on flowing. what i mean by 'help' isn't telling people how to make images look better visually.. it's just like i said before, the common issues. it's too bad that some don't want the advice and it is alright with me, but i just don't like seeing such images get praised while they could do such improvements to make them that much better.

I see what Andy is saying. There are images posted where the constructive criticisms are purely aesthetic - like you might challenge the composition or the colour palette. It's just someone's opinion and they should feel free to ignore it.

However, what he has mentioned is something different. I too have seen images where there are technical errors - pixelisation, angular polygons (on 3D images) blurry photos, etc. I think it is reasonable to give that artist assistance by suggesting ways to counteract the issue or tips on avoiding it in future. This is different again to simply negatively criticising someone's work without offering constructive ideas.

Thank you.. Now could we leave the decision as to what goes into the permenant galleries to the mods, and quit complaining, please?? PLEASE!!!!!!! Let them do their job in peace..

what i said was not about what goes into the permanent gallery at all.. nor a complaint...

True! I just felt that it was pity that you withdraw your wish to help becase of some people who choose to say no thanks. The only thing i have wanted to say is this---If we change our methods for HOW we offer our help, we might get another answer. It can be as simple as to ask the person how long they have taken pictures and what kind of equippment they are using, if they are happy about the quality or if they wish it could be better etc..THEN, based on that little chat we can offer our help. Pure simple communication formula..

Sure its sad with this defenced style that many people have, but with the right tool you can crack them too, It might take some time to build up this trust but if we approach to this people in a different way i think we will reach and help more.
I only try to be constructive in this subject and give some advices, but maybe i will get the same reaction as you get when you try to help, a feedback of " Dont come here and think you know better than me"
And why do some people react like that? Well maybe we have to live their whole life to really understand why...
Have a good day!

Yes, some people are very defensive, and sometimes they seem to read something into it that was not intended. I've seen the 'you think you're better than me' scenario before.

I like your idea, Tommy, about approaching someone in a different manner rather than just blurting out the advice. Perhaps it would work better that way.

It's always worth a try to change methods instead of acting like we are pre- programmed without any ability to change our methods and find other ways that really works...
Im glad to see that at least one person listening to and liked some of my ideas...
I thank you for that Captain! Have a great day!

Thank you, gentlemen..

What about new members like me, are my images considered snapshot fractals? I work a lot on my images but I'm still new with the program.

well.. basically what is meant by the term snapshot fractal is simply a fractal made straight from what the program gives you, with no manipulation or work done to it... you say you do a lot of work, so no, i wouldn't call them snapshots.

Andrew your fractals are NOT snapshots.. you are doing very for a beginner with the program... (which isnt an easy program )... keep up the work...

If you are new to the program, I encourage you to post what you think is your best work. Even if it might be considered a snapshot fractal, its OK if you are just learning, that way, people can give you some pointers. Also, once you become more experienced with the program, you realize that some of the works you thought were great aren't really all that good by your new standards. Which reminds me, I've got some deleting to do.

And while we are talking about Apophysis, once you get the hang of it, its pretty easy. In my opinion, it is relatively simple in terms of different functions. Although it looks strange at first, I advise you to keep experimenting with it, you WILL get better results.

As morpheus said.. once you get the hang of it.. there is so much you can do with it.. its a great prog....

yes, definately keep working at it because it can give you some really cool results.. and most of all, make sure the quality of your renders is very good, because poor quality can always ruin an excellent fractal.

Thanks you guys, I got some good looking images, hopefully everyone will like them.