A federal judge ruled teacher led recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance to the United States of America is illegal to be recited in public schools because it refers to one nation under God. It violates the childrens right to be " free from a coercive requirement to affirm God." The judge wrote that he was bound by a US Circuit Court of Appeals decision which in 2002 ruled in favor of a Sacramento atheist. Funny thing though, the State Education Code requires that all school children participate in daily patriotic exercises. Some say you arent pledging allegiance to God but to the country and some say say the pledge and add higher power or omit God but then recall all coins that say in God we trust. What do you think? Next may be the end of the song God Bless America. Some have said I am frustrated and tired by the smallest minorities exerting their wills on the overwhelming majority on this issue and on the other side we have If this is to be a country of religious freedom then that must include freedom from religion. HMMMMM!!

Perhaps you should look at the empty space in the manhattan skyline where thousands of people died my own uncle among them because George Friggin Bush was to dense and retarted to listen to the advice he got form HIS OWN INTELLIGENCE SERVICES!

there you are wrong, nothing could have prevented that from happening.

BULLSH@T!!! BUSH KNEW SOMETHING WAS COMING AND HES THE D@MN PRESIDENT!! HE SHOULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING, HE COULD HAVE PREVENTED ANYTHING FROM EVEN HAPPENING!!!

look at what you are saying! Only the Lord has the power to do that! 9/11
happened for a reason! can you not see?

So your telling me the actions of mortal men have no affect on the world we live in? That is the biggest misconception you could possibly make, that god already has you life planned out you and you can just ride the tide to shore. Make no mistake that that tragedy could have been prevented, and George Bush was the main person who could have stopped it.

again you are very wrong. yes in fact we have little or no power over our lives,
only God does.

That is excactly what I though you would say. You are deluded, you need to seriosly look at the way you live your life. God helps those who helps themselves, you need to get out and try to change things if you want them to be a certain way, cause I know that sitting in your room and praying till you cry isnt gonna help SH@T

well, you are right, but praying does help.

Maybe so, but ultimately YOU decide your fate. George Bush unwittingly decided the fates of thousands of people when he decided to ignore the people whos job it was to give him the right information.

maybe he didn't hear them in the first place... but he did not ignore them.

Do some research, look at some articles on the web. He saw them. He ignored them. People died.

not true.

Really... how unbeleivablely biased to claim that I am lying when you havent seen any of the information yourself. You need to get a clue, I dont mean that in an insulting way but you really need to get some information befopre you try to argue a point because you are just blatantly wrong.

I do have information, and I know that what you are saying is not true.

You obviosly didnt get your "information" from a very reliable source my freind.

Well then, I guess I'm going to have to do more researching eh?

Ok, I know that I am going to step out into a burning wall of flame, but I fell like I need to say something

Even though Bush did get the intel about the planes, he did not think of it as a credible threat. Stand in his shoes for a second, and think of what would have gone through your mind had somebody told you that two commercial class planes were going to fly into two of the most symbolic structures on the east coast. You probably would have shrugged it off and think the guy was nuts. And don't instantly flame me and say that of course you would have responded. I'm going to guess but that response is instigated by the knowledge that you know now, and not by what you knew then. Even if you disagree with the fact that Bush even ignored intel, you have to again put yourself in his shoes again. The FBI gets, literally, hundreds of false report and claims and letters by angry people. While they usually consider each threat and letter carefully, the usually ultimately disregard most of the threats as unfounded, or as a result of a guy with too much moonshine. Now I don’t have any information to verify this, but to the best of my knowledge, the president is not responsible for things such as defense against possible attacks on US; to my knowledge that is or was the FBI’s responsibility. Now I don’t have any information to back that last statement up, so if you know otherwise please let me know in an uninsulting manner.

I have news for you. They had there eyes on three of the main players in the 9/11 attack 7 months before it happened but did nothing because it would alienated their rights. So instead of arresting the men they blow it of so not to get into trouble. They let them go with out further surveillance because by following them and interrogating them, they would have committed a felony and put their carriers in jeopardy. Go figure, federal employees that did not want to put there job on the line to save a few american lives. What's the chances of that happening again. What in 1 in 2 LOL.

There is nothing we can do against people who see suicide as Martydom. 75% Of the worlds pop in Muslim so Bush was right not to react straight away he needed to know who was behind it completely before he pointed the finger otherwise Israel might have had a bit more to say. That would have been very bad. Bush is now putting the tighteners on Iran as he wants more oil in regards to the nuclear testing which is s++t for us all. This man will not stop untill he is out of power. He will endanger you guys and he's devoutly inflexible when it comes to understand others. How many people realise Muslims are against this behaviour of the extremists. How many people watch biased news CNN BBC etc and accept their opinion as the way it is?

Back to the main discussion...
the word god was ADDED to pledge well after it was originally written. Therefore, I think the word god should be omitted when said in the confines of a public school. Anyone who says different does not understand either the priciples the US was built on or freedom of religion. EVERYONE is free to pray and worship whoever/whatever they want on their own time.

Hear, hear Prism. Bush isnt fit to be in a position of leadership until he figures out how to be a human being.

Very true groo2k. The issue is that it isn't very sensitive to people of other religions and you shouldn't criticize them if you aren't in their position.

If we are to practice freedom of religion, we have to allow people the choice wether or not to recite the pledge. Like I said, kids are forced into reciting and standing for the pledge which is simply not fair and rather insensitive.

I agee with raptorfalcon!!!!! Yes, everyone put yourself in the presidents
shoes.

First, should there be public education? (communist manifesto idea) As far as Bush goes- yeah- he's far from perfect. But I'm tired of alot of the ridiculous propoganda as far as 9/11. Have you heard what people are saying about the Louisiana stuff: that Bush bombed the dikes in order to kill off the African American population? I mean come on- does it get any farther out? Or people complaining that the relief help is so slow- its is actually one of the fastest disaster responses in the world. It is just weird to hear people spout off these theories that they believe like they are remotely credible. So, yeah, I agree with Rhea, and would say that warrior listens to what he wants to hear.

Man, you people talk about Bush as if he is god and knows everything. Geez, give him a break he is only human. Every position in which decisions must made has the potential of a wrong decision being made. Wrong decisions have been made . . . so what? Fix what you can and move on. No one is perfect.

Now, all this complaining about freedoms of this and rights of that. The one thing the general populous doesn't realize is that with every freedom comes the responsibility to wield that freedom appropriately and be responsible for it. Sure we all have a right to freedom of speech and belief, but few use the wisdom to be responsible for their words or have informed beliefs. Thus our nations are destroying themselves from the inside faster than nations of the past that are long gone. The USA would have self-destructed long ago without the God inspired constitution and organization of our country. As it is, we as a country seem to be doing our best to twist those things which were a protection of freedoms into perfect corruption. If you study history, these corruptions (usually a worship of self) are what ultimately lead to a nation's downfall. Now, I am not referring to oppression of a righteous expression of belief. But you can't argue that most of the legal protection of minority rights comes at the expense of the majority to publicly express their same right.

As to the pledge of allegiance, I'm all for it . . . for those that choose to pledge their allegiance to their "country," for that is what it is for. That pledge is to dedicate oneself to the cause of freedom, to be unified as a nation, to help each other, and to commit to better our nation by beginning with ourselves. True, not everyone will agree to this and should not be compelled to do so. But this is and was the aim of the pledge. We also should not lazily say the pledge. We should put meaning and commitment behind our words.

Whether we do or do not agree to the pledge, we should understand what saying it (committing ourselves to it) or not means to us, and therefore, where we stand in relation to our country and the freedoms we enjoy.

hear hear- way to put the thread back on topic. ;)

Therefore education of what is expected if you do or dont pledge. What are the consequences of each action? What affect does this mean to a child in school if they are able to comprahend what they are doing by pledging in the first place. Or what is the result if they dont pledge?

Exactly! :)

If you are a child and you dont pledge, you can according the the California Educational Code, participate in a patriotic activty, like sing a song or color a flag but not have to mention the G word which is GOD.

I’m sorry I really don’t agree with a policy that says agree with obstinate behavior and not dedication a patriotism.

I think we have become a over reactive country of politically correct wimps, that have come out of the closet to say that every thing that this country has originally stood for is wrong. What’s next? To remove freedom of speech from the Bill of rights! I see the Bill of rights becoming so long that all of our freedoms will be lost in the endless list of rights that are there to protect every fanatical individual that fells that they did not receive justice. Remember that the 9/11 attack occurred do to the FBI protecting and individuals rights.

I fought and walked in the marches for the united farm workers, I walk to prevent pesticides from being sprayed on people while they worked, and for the people who lost there hands and fingers in picking machines. I marched to prevent woman from having premature births in those farm fields and the children that were born with out spines and brains, do to those insecticides. So I believe in rights.

But when it comes to the safety of a country and a suspect, green card what green card we don’t need to see a green card.

Yes this country in many ways has turned the wrong corner.

1. It was once illegal to burn the American flag. Now it’s against the constitutional rights of a person to stop that type behavior. Know other country would even allow that to accrue.

2. If I complain about the overwhelming arrival of illegal aliens in this country every year that is destroying our nations infra structure do to the over taxing of the welfare and social security system and the corruption and crime that is being allowed to enter this country I am called a racist instead of a caring American.

3. If I raise my voice against an un-just war I’m called a vigilant.

4. Now I’m being told that my countries oath of patriotism is illegal. If believing in God is such a crime then remove the word from the Pledge. Seems like a simple answer to me. The pledge of elegance is truly no more then a reminder of what cost was spent to bring freedom and liberty to a nation of oppressed people. It is a reminder.

Besides I really am not a believer of an all loving God. But I will say this for those who do believe in God. When did it become right to change the aspects of faith to fit mankind’s needs? Are we not supposed to follow the laws of God instead of the other way around? I don’t see Bush not using the name of God to rally to the cause of war. Is that not a contradiction?

My whole point is that if we are to be a nation united we must stop being a group of cowards who are afraid to stand up for our nation and what it did at one time stand for and hopefully will stand for again. We have become a nation of lost souls in a bureaucratic politically correct battle zone that worries more about filling their pockets then the future and well being of this country.

Freedom is not given, but earned. Hard work is just the first step to the ones self indepedence.

Bit heavy for me P, But I agree with alot of countries needing an identity, something to be proud of and work to improve for the better.

The point is stop sweating the small stuff, we have much bigger things to worry about.

Freedom is not given, but earned. Hard work is just the first step to the ones self indepedence.

My point in the first place.

The point isn't that this is such a huge deal- but what direction it is taking the nation. No, not saying the pledge of alliengance in school wouldn't affect much. But what is the next step with this kind of thinking...

I now agree with djrangman. BUSH RULES!!!!!!

No that is not what was said. What was said is that the residents of the area heard an explosion near the point of the break in the levy. The residents think that it was done to save the French quarter and the more expensive homes in the other areas. One man who said his home was only a few hundred yards for the levy said he was woken up by a very large boom, that like a explosion. Know one said that Bush had anything to do with it.

hmm- I don't remember which famous liberal said it- but I'll find out and post here. That is what was said. As far as a boom- I'm sure there was quite a bit of noise.

Okey dokey, I now agree with prismmagic. I KNOW that Bush had nothing to
do with it. I guess ppl don't like him. :( Poor Bush. May the Lord Bless him. :)

The only thing bush and the government had to do with it was there lack of responce.
As far as it goes Bush. When ever I think of him I remenmber when he waved at stevie wonder on T.V. And for those who don't know, Stevie is blind. Lopidope! LOL

Again- this was one of the fastest disaster relief projects in the world... research it.

Prismmagic, why are you being mean to Bush? He is a very SMART man.

I'm not being mean I just telling you the actual proff reported from the news cast and in the news pappers.I saw him waving my self on TV.

No his publicist is a very smart. His writers are very smart. But Bush no, have you not noticed the smirk on his face when a speech goes well. He actually look like he's thinking, their Buying this.
He is proof that the presidency can be bought. It’s like his first election and he won Florida. The state is made up of mostly poor democrats yet he won. African Americans where not allowed to vote unless they had 5 forms of ID but every one else was allowed to vote with one form of ID. Now they never did explain what happened when twelve trucks that disappeared with there ballot boxes for 12 hours while they where on there way to the counting rooms. Hmmm! Just so happens that his brother was governor of that state and they were being driven by stste troopers. Oh by the way that was the state that won him the office. I guess no one wants another water Gate. Reagan did the same thing he used the CIA to spy on demarcates to win his second term. which by the way the CIA was under the control of Bush senior before he was the vice president under Reagen.

You meanie! Bush IS SMART!!!!! Don't believe what the news or people say,
I even spoke to him! In person! He is an intelligent man. If you haven't met him
in real life, you have NO right to say that.

Dear I'm not being mean I'm from Florida and have many relitives there so I no the real story. First thing I do have the right his salery is paid by every American in this country. He should only answer to the American people and there needs, not the special intrest groups. I don't mean to belittle you, but were did you meet him, how long did you talk to him and how old are you..

Alex remember my post (PM), he is not smart. His IQ is twice the size of me & P's individually. Kids dont need him as a role model as harsh as it sounds. Read + research = understanding. Free will. You have free will. If after looking into this issue you still have your opinion then stand by it with all your might. Be strong as there are to many sheep.
By sheep I mean be part of the flock and follow the leader for the sake of harmony.

Well, my friends dad is the senator of PA and they went to meet him and
took me along. He was very nice and not to meantion intelligent. I'm 13,
young I know but I observe polotics. Nikoli thanks for the advice, Bush
is smart. :)

Smart he might be, bright he is not. But I see you are taking my advice, that is a good thing, there are alot of sharks out there. Just make sure your dorsal fin is bigger.

Okey dokey! Bush is BRIGHT and SMART. k?

We all have the right to our own hero's. I hope that if he is one of yours that he never lets you down.

Touchee!

Very much so!

Yup, he is one of my heroes. He has NEVER let me down. Except for
the nomination of the new chief justice, I didn't like that...

Alex out of all the iconic figure's in history (you read) find someone with a back bone and reliability. Fahrenheit 911, Bowling for Columnbine. The guy is to all intention purposes a puppet. Listen to me getting emotional after all I have said. Thats because I care alot, more than your President. Thats even if he has the ability to care in the first place?????

Evil Nick! >:[

Got a response we can move on @ last. Remember I said still have your thoughts but flexibility will allow you more freedom in debate. Nick (NJ) x.

........... %|

% = ?

It means I'm confused and unhappy.

Dont be unhappy, explain PM and I will come back to this tomorrow. Ciao folks.

ok, adios!

Take a break from those fantasy books and get into reality regarding Bush. DO you know when the new reporters interview serial killers, most neighbors say, he was a nice guy and never raised his voice. Looks can be decieving.........

That's wrong Kim. Bush is a wonderful man.

I am not wrong..you beleive what you know......being a "wonderful man" does not make a good decision maker or a wise president.

Being wonderful does constitute for something though. Yes, I believe what
I believe and you believe what you believe.

Indeed Lady_Rhea_, you believe what you believe.

If you believe you have gotten your oppinion out, than people heard what they had to hear from you. You got your point across. I think it's rather pointless to get involved in arguments.

Yes, yes indeed. :) I will stand firm by what I believe.

Good :) Now let's live and let live, and respect what other's believe.

Good, I agree... sort of.... hehehe

tbob you're very mysterious.

I am homeschooling my kids fo an assortment of reasons. One, here in Fresno the public schools are lousy, and 2, because I am American and have freedoms. My husband is christian, I do not affilliate with any organized religion. Yet I plan to teach my kids about God in whatever form they feel comfortable with, be it God, Higher Power, whatever. I think that teaching kids about ethics and morals is important, as is teaching them about faith. I come from a military family. My husband was in the USMC. I plan to tach my kids about patriotism, based on the constitution and what our country was built upon and fighting for. I think the pledge is a good thing, but if certain wording goes against ones faith, I see no problem with inserting whatever name in they want. One nation under Jehovah, one nation under Allah, one nation under God, whatever...the point is to reaffirm that despite our diversity, we are ONE NATION. People have forgot this lately. People fight against blacks, hispanics, gays, whatever. It is the strong diversity of the US that makes it wonderful. Today people have a nasty disease called Lawsuit-anitus. My hair is purple and I have tattoos, I must fight for my freedom because you are opressing me...NOT. If someone thinks I'm weird because of my purple hair and tattoos, I don't care. I could just as easily say that NOT having purple hair and tattoos makes them lemmings. The point is, people have been filing lawsuits over stupid sh*t. Saying the pledge isn't violating your beliefs. A parent has the right to say, my kid is not participating. You don't send a kid to Catholic school if you are atheist then complain that they are teaching the bible. I said the Pledge as a child, and saying one nation under God, did not brainwash me, or go against any beliefs. I still turned out the way I am. If you don't want to pledge allegiance to the US, then find a different damn country to live in. It is all really crazy to me.

i guess i agree with some of that. As far as Bush goes- everybody could do a little research into the other side's views- I think that we all have a tendancy to hear what we want to hear. I don't think he's perfect- or that he didn't wave to Stevie Wonder (not important) but I do think that the conspiracies are laughable. Sift what you hear. Propoganda wasn't just a weapon of Nazi Germany. And Clinton did a lot worse stuff than the Monica affair- set our economy up to fall, trashed the white house, and made deals with communist China.

When did this become a debate on Bush? The question was regarding saying the pledge. I'd like to hear views on that. Bush...you either love him or hate him, it will be a debate that no one will win, so lets get back to the topic. Do you think this stuff with the Pledge should happen?

i felt that the pledge stuff had pretty much been covered...

Hi Guys.

Just let me paint a picture which is out of the box here. As a citizen of the United Kingdom it is very difficult to try and break things down on this thread ideologically into manageble pieces so I can figure this debate out. Why? Purely because we dont have a constitution as such. The last time we had one that was actively followed was the Magne Carte which was the president for all constitutions since. (I thinks there was only one other but cant remember). England has a growing problem which is the loss of a cultural identity. USA Is huge we are not, so things are magnified here due to a lack of space. In schools here we dont have a pledge towards a specific church or religion. Christian, Catholic, Jewdaism, Hinduism, Budhism & King or Queen, etc and as a follow on from this we have no backbone to support the country?????? I suppose in a small way the pledge from what I have read is a good thing in the respect of oneness, therefore increasing the Identity and all Americans realising @ the least what it is to be American. If it is still the case that people have alternate views these should also be encouraged therefore increasing the level of understanding onlookers have therefore increasing acceptance. In the Uk we are having problems with a multi cultural society (does not happen only increase's segregation), as we have let a lot of foreign nationals and refugees so now for the sake of (PC) we cant go back on our word! Now what I am going to say should not in any be deemed as defensive but if you are living here and we can provide you and your family with a far higher standard of life please accept and learn our values and customs so that we can intergrate not segregate. However This country sums are more important than the sums adding to it!? It is more important that our views should take president. So adapting to working here can be proactive for the economy. I open my arms as wide as I can to other cultures and beliefs to learn from them. However why is it people in seats of higher power cant see this as the way forward. Schools teaching history of a country is a fantastic thing. We are beginnig to lose site of ours. Pledging young is good then I suppose for and Identity but teaching of other cultures I suppose should also be important aswell. Start young out grow bigotry thats in place here and now. These are my views based on problems we have here. Because of this I would not be able to understand a view of a country that had a constitution and wanted to get rid of a pledge, it is completely opposite technically to our situation over here.

Thanks (brainache) NJ

It appears i was wrong- thanks for the perspective Nikoli. :)

Need anti inflametories after that. No probs still re-reading it to understand it my self.

Very noble words Nick. ;)

Why Thank you Queen Alex. Still have a headache. : )

Poor Nick! :(

Nikoli, as I have said, you are wise beyond your years!!

Nope just a book that has not been published yet. Whats the opposite for am? Q - how is your knee?

It is still attached to my right leg but is swollen and sore. I see the Dr next week. Thank you for your caring comment.

Lady_Rhea_-
Once you get older and travel around the U.S. or the world you will find that many cultures are doing just fine without the help of prayers to YOUR god. Travel to places like China, India, or many places within the U.S. and experience other cultures first hand. Also, if you are to be so very vocal with your opinions about god and Bush, please enlighten others with facts or plausible points of view. Your opinion does not make fact. In truth, one could argue that worshipping the sun is more logical and intelligent than worshiping a god that no one can prove exists (Carlin). I am not trying to be mean or condescending but, according to your profile, you are 13 years old. I don't believe your life experiences quite measure up to the amount of preaching you seem to do. Remember, blind faith to anything, whether to a god or a person (Bush in this case) is dangerous.

Who says that I'am looking through blind eyes. I may be 13 but I talk to
many people (of other religions and viewpoints) because I like to know what
people think and other religions there are. Yes, I know that I'am still very young
but I do know a couple of things.

I would wager that if you were born in China you would not be Christian. Just a guess though.

Well getting back on task...

I truely do hope that people do recognize a few points:

-First: People are FORCED to stand or recite the pledge wether their religion permits it or not

-Second: We should be much more sensitive in that not everyone believes in God in the christian way, and wether you like it or not, people do get understandably offended.

Me being Catholic, I would be rather offended if we had to recite a pledge that had say Hindi god names in there or something of that nature. I wouldn't be terribly offended, but it also depends on how you were brought up.

Freedom of religion is not limited to EXPRESSING religion...I believe it is also to be sensitive towards other people's beliefs as well.

ha! (not funny groo2k)

I thought it was clever.

No, it wasn't.

Come on now Alex, ease up a bit.

Do you have to have the last word on everything? Your age is really starting to show.

ooh...I just got the last word.

Yes!

*experiences de ja vu"

No, now I have the last word.

No me, Noe Me, No me. Geeeessss. Come on Guys.

Just trying to lighten the mood...

LOL! Whay with a hammer? LOL

;-(