*sigh*

I don't really want to start up another thread on voting. That rag's been rung dry and the cost to the site has been great. This thread, however, is sufficiently close that it may just earn me a 48 hour banning. If it does I will restrain myself voluntarily or accept any reasonable sanctions without issue.

I have offered this suggestion in other forms but thought I'd float a specific thread on it for feedback from the group. You can see it as a replacement for voting or as an adjunct as you see fit.

Premise:
People want to know if their art (photo/other) is pleasing to others. Voting provided a means of conveying this by degree. In the end, the measurement degree doesn't matter if the fact that 'the viewer liked it' is conveyed.

Suggestion:
Provide a means by which viewers can simply click a button indicating "I like this image". Doing so will increase a counter on the image intended to represent the number of people who "liked" the image. If, after sufficient time has passed and the count is high, this could be used as an indicator to the ImageMods that the image MIGHT be a keeper and s/b promoted to permanent galleries. If the viewer has the interest they can certainly continue to comment as usual to define what "I liked the image" means in words or to offer suggestions/critique as usual.

What will this accomplish?
It will remove the power from low/revenge/attack voters while providing an indicator of the site-value of the image from the viewers perspective. The # of downloads/views is really no indication. I've downloaded many images that I would not say "I liked". I know my way around statistics .. some don't. This measure, however, is easily understood and the calculation of same need not be complicated nor veiled.

What will this avoid?
There's no way to negate the opinion of the viewers who choose to indicate they "liked" the image. You either click the button .. or you don't. If you don't like the image .. just leave the button alone. If you're indifferent about the image, just leave the button alone. If you feel you need to comment on the image, then do so. Your words will be attributed to you as they are now. The only way to black-ball an image is by comment. You can only comment with attribution. This removes the veil of secrecy that low/revenge/attack voters hide behind. It will also help people like me who have NO business judging other peoples works, be that photography, drawings or fractals. What do I know? I'm just a schlepper with an itchy finger who occasionally squeezes off an acceptable picture. Who am I to tell someone that their photo is a 10 or a 5 or a 3? I CAN tell them that I like it though.. and stand behind it. If I don't .. I just wouldn't click the button. I think the majority of the members/guests are with me in the sub-expert category, or should be.

Ponder:
Would you rather see a count that 150 viewers liked your image or a c-index of 6? Hmmm.

Ok.. that's about all this rant can hold. Your thoughts/feedback is encouraged in this forum.

Kindly,


Rob

I like your idea, I hope it goes through.

Thank you, Rob.. It's about time someone suggested somthing sensable and mature..

I think it's a great idea. I'd love to see a system like that implemented.

Interesting concept. It's definitely worth consideration.

Yes, it is, I already said I liked it, but I really do like the new idea and it should bring less fighting.

i would rather not see this come into affect to be honest. I like to see if people like my image, or if they really like my image. This takes away the degree of liking.

What is a degree of liking.. Either you like it or you don't.. It isn't that complicated..

Milo .. in such circumstances they can always (or you can always ask for) comment to express the degree to which they like your image.

The measure becomes the # of people who like your image, not a convoluted formula that, in the end, tells you much less.

The 'degree of liking' you seek is negated by those who also weigh in on their "degree of disliking" and therefore impure.

Milo, do you have a suggestion that will accomplish the same as is suggested? Perhaps something more simple or more effective?

(by the way Milo .. I think you present wonderful pictures)

Ann (::Morwyn) .. exacty .. that therein lies the solution. It's simple, can't be messed with and provides information of value.

i acctually have nothing against the voting system that is in place now, other then perhaps having it so it is alittle less random. When i say less random i mean that it would pressent me with pictures that are in the same type of galleries that i upload to, ie. photography, computer generated, and so on.

thank you for your compliment by the way.

Milo, thanks for your feedback and thoughts. You see, you're in a similar position as me. You have images, some in permanent galleries, with too few metrics to even generate a C-index.

As of this moment I have 96 images on the site, 70 in permanent galleries, 61 without C-indexes, 53 without votes whatsoever.

So, in my case or yours .. how is the voting system (that you have nothing against) serving either you or I .. or others?

Is there an alternative to voting, that will give you what you seek ("I like to see if people like my image, or if they really like my image") without the complications? The proposed solution will give you exactly this. It will, in one click, tell you if your image is liked or really liked by people (distinct from individuals). Individuals still have the ability to give you precise feedback by comment. Comments being the greatest measure.

Such a solution is what I seek and what I present for discussion.

Images in the permanent gallery will be the last to get a c-index with the new system. This is because it is more important to make sure we get enough votes on the newly uploaded images. Any extra votes that are available go to the permanent gallery images.

I can see that starting to happen now. About half my images have ratings now. All of the new ones oboviously, but the older ones are starting to get it aswell.

Caedes/Milo.

This strays from the topoic of the post, though good information provided.
__________

On thread:

That what is being suggested could be a replacement for voting ..or may be an adjunct. I have my opinion. I'm interested to know why it would NOT work and if the view is shared that it WOULD work. <-- on the list of questions that seem to miss answers.

Happy Thanksgiving/Columbus Day!

Rob

I like Rob's idea. What I know after many years teaching is that a c-index, or average mark, is only really going to start being significant when it reaches a fairly significant number, (eliminating the statistical significance of individuals with mal-intent) but only if the current average is NOT known by the new voter. [We humans are VERY influenced by the prior judgements.] Even so, if a work is not outstanding, and not terrible, then it will tend closer and closer to 6/10 after many votes...like a slightly skewed bell-curve. Personally I think that any system is usable though, so long as the meaning and influence of the variables are understood. It comes down to how well we understand what we are being told, and what we do with that information. For me, I want to know if my sense of what a "pleasing image" matches the opinion of a few, some or many of the type of people who visit this site. If it does then I keep on that track. If it doesn't, I ask why and change direction. Rob's suggestion might give me enough information to do that if I can see the number of downloads/views. Other subjective variables can be commented on below the image. But it was still cool to get a "92", so I guess the c-index still has some merit! (lol)

Mum42 .. very well expressed.

*sends Mum42 a gratuitous 92*


>>Mum42 writes: "Personally I think that any system is usable though, so long as the meaning and influence of the variables are understood." << ...

I quite agree. Since the C-index is a constructed (and veiled) index unique to the Caedes site, perhaps it could remain and be expressed as result of an algorithm using Views/Downloads/Like-it/and Favourites as elements. The advise, however, would be to weight the result, in favour of 8's, to appease the bruised egos. *wink*

More seriously, NONE of these elements (distinct from voting) can be manipulated and would produce a pure result.

There is already a similar system in place,the views to download ratio.The way I look at it is if you like something you will download it if you dont like it you wont.

But you should take a closer view to see everything, if you don't, you don't know what you just passed by. That is why I think everyone should download it to see if they like it, if they do, set it as they're background, if not they don't set it.

Yes, also with the voting booth, you have to view images at full size, so that basically negates the view/download ratio.

like Rob's idea, one can only hope. Dwight,

I dont think viewing them full view in the voting booth counts towards the view/download ratio

Dreaming..

The requirement to view images at full size is the bane of those on dial-up. Simply takes too long so they won't. Ask Morwyn. *notices her empty gallery*

+TBob .. with respect:
The fact that I've downloaded images should not be confused as an indication the I liked the image. Any statistics derived on this premise is faulted could be less than accurate in my case, and others.

________________

Just as an observation of human nature, and this is just an opinion. If people are forced to vote the effect will be, by nature, a lower overall vote cast affected by frame of mind (people naturally resist being told). Caedes .. I'd bet real $ that this would be borne out with analysis of voting trends of history compared to those cast from the voting booth (distinct from voting on gallery images). We're loosing people for this forced-voting reason alone (but you know that).

Now, if we're looking at the site as a repository for images and not a social gathering spot, this is fine. More people will come, the #'s will rise, and the presence of new artists will continue. However, if the measure of the site is something more .. that there is a culture here, then the loss is real.

________________

But then, I digress. Is there an enhancement that can be made to this idea (subject of this thread) that can improve it .. or prove it as faulty? Suggestions are gently encouraged.

First I will say my gallery was removed because my ex decided to give me grief.. That has been dealt with.. He won't be troubling me anymore..

My mother has been very ill since the middle of August.. She spent the month of September in and out of the hospital. The last one being for a blood clot.. She is on Coumadin, aka De-Con. I cannot be on the internet for long periods of time during the day because the Dr's might call.. She has four of them.. Her health means more to me than being able to upload an image or two.. That also means any business I do online, has to be done in the early morning or in the evening.. I do not have two hours to vote.. When I am on, I am usually in the chat room, but I am doing at least 4 or 5 other things, at the same time.. Since I live in a small town where there is a minimal amount of shopping availabIe, I must do a lot of that online..

I will tell you what forced voting means to me.. I tried it the first couple of nights.. Took me 4 hours to catch up. After that, it was between an hour and a half to two hours to vote on the 10 required images.. Forced voting means I will not be able to upload here, as long as it exists..

Again.. I will support Caedes in all his decisions.. It is his site and he may do as he pleases.. If he choses to ban me for this, then so be it.. It is not what I want, but I need to finally have my say..

Judging by the argumentativeness of this thread, I don't suppose those in discord to the changes will be swayed at all by any sort of post. I will however however offer my rebuttal and one view of reasoning to the changes.

I don't think that the "I Like It" idea would work (at least for me) because I don't base the entirety of my vote on whether or not I like the image. As an art student, I am subject to alot of critiques. Most of the work I honestly don't like, but the purpose of critiquing art pieces is not only to express a personal like to the piece, but also an objective view of the creativeness, form, and aesthetics of the artist. I would much rather tell someone that it's average (4-6) than to tell them that I don't like it at all. One shouldn't turn art into a world of absolutes.

Secondly, as to forcing people to vote: Participation merits imput. This seems to be the only way to get people to vote and more importantly diversify votes. I have to admit, as I have stated on other threads, that I didn't like the idea at first, but now I see the importance and reasoning behind it. I've looked at art I never would have seen otherwise and I hope people have looked at mine in the same way.

Lowering a vote out of spite shows a lack of respect on the part of the voter.

I don't mean for this post to appear as a personal attack . . . merely a point of view.

Great feedback. ...keep it coming.

(By the way .. I have no emotion in this and I have not felt attacked)

For change to occur, two generations must agree.

Yeah, I don't base my entire vote on whether I like the image. I tend to give 5's and go higher when it looks like some effort went into making the picture, whatever it was.

It would be nice if we knew when some things were illustrations and some things were pictures. You can usually tell, but sometimes you can't. A category by the image in the voting booth would be nice.

Emily.. your system works just great for you, and would work very well for the site if everyone played nice. The problem is that you're a reasonable person and approach voting logically and without emotion, like me. You and I, however, suffer under voters who lead with their emotion, without logic or systematic thinking. Why else would someone vote low-vote a perfectly adequate image?

The suggestion within the thread above, thwarts such emotional voting. It can't be altered. You either like an image, or you don't. If you don't (or don't in degrees) then comment. If you do (or do in degrees) then comment. Simple really, and can't be messed with.

Great feedback ...keep it coming.

*calls upon the ImageMods to weigh in*

Your idea has some good points, but I think we should allow for the time the new voting system needs to get adjusted. At the moment new images get around 10 votes (which is more than most of the images got before) and the images in the permant galleries receive the remainig votes. Once the permant galleries have their votes filled in (in two months? Perhaps caedes could give a forecast) there are more votes "free", so the images should get more than 10 votes. Thus a single undeserved low (or high) votes won't weigh so much and the c-index will get more objective.

If then the whole voting/index thing is still unsatisfactoring we can discuss another better system, but for now I think we should just wait and see how it turns out.

Thanks for the 92, Rob. (Phew - I can stop holding my breath now and return to a nice shade of pale pink!)

Hey Mia .. thanks for your comments. I would agree that it's wise to give the new voting system some time. I wonder,however, it that will lessen the issue rather than address the issue.

The suggestion, of the thread, would not require time to work.

How many votes are required for an image to have a reasonable assurance that the average presented is representative? Without sliding into mathematical mumbo jumbo, its large. And even then, pretty meaningless without knowing the deviation from the mean. (oops .. I slid)

Count the number of votes on any given image. My limited history (10 months or so and a few hundred posts) = not many. It's just too hard to vote and apathy reigns.

It's easy to answer the question "I like it". <-- opinion

I think the opportunity presented by the voting booth is fine. I can see where it brings otherwise ignored (or ignorable) images to view. I just think it should be a call to indicate "I like it", not a call for a vote on a scale that can be skewed.

Well .. this is all becoming me on a soapbox, not at all what I intended. A few have saild "I like it" but until two generations agree this will continue to be an idle solution. One that no-one has really found a hole in, nor offered an improvement to. Just one to wave in the wind.

*takes a picture of the waving solution and posts it awaiting votes*

*wink*

Rob said: "How many votes are required for an image to have a reasonable assurance that the average presented is representative? Without sliding into mathematical mumbo jumbo, its large." Bingo, Rob...you hit the nail on the head. It would take far more than "10 or so" votes to arrive at a "representative" average on images here. I really like your proposed alternative, for what it's worth. Caedes has suggested that I leave if I don't like the new system, but I don't visit this site because of its voting system. I visit because of the images here and, sadly, I'm seeing less and less computer generated images since the new system kicked in. I'm an art instructor. I have little time to create images for a site such as this, but I very much enjoy viewing great art. I'm not a big photography fan and it seems that this site is becoming more and more a photography site (there are indeed many good photographs here.)

Mum 42 stated that the overall quality of images here would be represented by a "slightly skewed bell curve." I agree, but would argue that it would be represented by a significantly skewed curve with the majority of images falling around 7 (70) and relatively few falling below 5 (50.) That's why it troubles me to see so many images scoring so low.

So, again, for what it's worth, Rob, I think your idea has merit, even though it's not likely to be implemented. With that, I'm signing off and probably won't have time to visit again for several days. It's the high quality images here that keeps me coming back. My compliments to the gifted artists who post here.

I think there's always been a bias towards photography on this site. However, I have not noticed less computer images being posted. It's true that there are less of them in the voting booth, but that is because I am now seeing images I would never look at before. I am unaware though of any change in the types of images submitted to the new galleries.

"I don't visit this site because of its voting system. I visit because of the images here" - simple solution: don't go in the voting booth, just browse the galleries. It may be that I've missed the point, but I think that would solve the problem.

I have just realised that the voting outside the voting booth doesn't count at present. D'oh!
Now I REALLY like your idea, Rob!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All I heard on that was someday the selective votes will go into the equation somehow but maybe I missed. I still view, comment, and vote out there until I have an upload.

*adds Mum42 to the list*
*counts the list*
*frowns*


*wink*

BjB: You, and others, are great in your support of the site and it's artists.

This is all so sad.. I do not understand how or why all this happened.. None of it makes sense to me.. Hopefully this will all be straightened out and I will be able to upload on my favorite site again.. Till then I will have tears in my eyes..

Rob, I just wanted to say that I think your idea is good and could have great potential. I'd also like to thank you for making such a well thought-out post. You asked for comments and support from the mods, but I think many of them are afraid to post in discussions like this. It seems there's always someone around ready to rip into whoever they don't agree with lately. It looks like we're going to stay with the c-index, but this is a good thought to file away for the future if any changes become necessary.

Mike( =xentrik ), and all.

I'd like to wrap up this discussion. No penalties if it continues, just to mark that I think my point was made.

The alternative positioned was, and remains, an alternative. It will remain an alternative until it's adopted or rejected. From my point of view, exhaustively recounted (*wink*) it's viable. In the end it's the site members or administration that will cause it to rise or fall.

In the mean time ... it's a great pleasure to be a member/participant on this site. A hearty thank you to Caedes and the Team to wade through the muck each day to keep this site strong, viable and a pleasure.

Thanks to those who participated in this discussion. Great input from all.


Rob

I like having 2 options. I would like to be able to both simply check a "I like this image" button, and then rank the image.

Checking the "I like this image" button would provide a total number count of how many liked the image. But then having a ranked score would provide a finer image of just what that means.

Offering both and allowing a viewer to choose either or both ways to record their opinion would be nice imo.

I gotta tell you, as a newbee here who comes to look at good art, I find the voting booth irritating. I want to contribute something by voting on images that stand out. I want to be able to register my liking (or disliking). So, I always take the time to go to the voting booth because, from what I've read, those votes are currently the only votes that count. But, I rarely get the opportunity to vote on images I really like there, and I assume there are a few others in the same boat. I do try to take the time to vote on the image page itself, but it feels kind of like a waste of time because those votes aren't used. So, yeah, it's irritating to have to vote on a number of images I don't really have feelings about one way or another and not to be able to vote on images I do. Not only that, I don't think I'm giving fair consideration to the images I don't care for, though I do my best. I visit a couple of other art websites that allow viewers to rate random images too (though doing so is completely without strings attached), but they allow the viewer to skip images they don't want to vote on and they allow artists to stipulate, if they so choose, that viewers can only rate their images if they also comment. As I've said in other discussions here, I really like the work here and the way this website is structured, but I'm finding the rating system frustrating. Thanks for hearing me out. Sunny