Well, it's time to resurrect one of my favourite old debates: tomayto or tomahto? On the calendar discussion board, stuffnstuff brought up a commonly Americanized word: coupon. In English, vowel sounds are meant to be drawn out... it's a romantic, rather than germanic, aspect of the language. Therefore, the word is pronounced coo-pon.

Pronunciation helps to distinguish between very similar words, e.g. Yew and you. One is a plant, the other an animal (couch potatoes are the middle ground). In American English, the two words are pronounced exactly alike... in English, the "ou" in you is drawn out and prounouced as a double "o."

I'd love to hear your arguments for or against this...

My arguement is that language is the property of the society that uses it and not that of ivory-tower leaders. Language (and its pronounciation) is defined by its use. Without use there is no language. The problem with complaining about "proper" pronounciation is that you have to decide on which version to call "proper." It is a basically arbitrary choice based on how far you want to go back in time and where you want to go (geographically) to find that "true" English. This is because all languages are constantly evolving as new demands are put on their use. The evolution happens even despite fervent opposition from such authorities as the Académie française.

My arguments for or against what? .. I don't see that YOU have taken a stand .. but .. debate is not my fortay (a word for tomorrows debate ;o) They say that American English is one of the hardest languages to learn .. due to, as you point out, the inconsistencies

But, as *caedes points out, the language belongs to the people and not a rule book. Just moving a thousand miles in a given direction can render you unable to communicate with your fellow man .. I've been to West Virginia, I had to hang on every word carefully to even begin to glean the meaning of what was being said, lest it be "Hey, chow time"

don't even get me started on Basstun, Massachewsetts .. they pok the cah in the yad

Ah ha..

Well, seeing as language is a continually evolving concept, *nods to Caedes for bringing it up*, and English is different depending on where you were brought up, or who you were taught by, there is going to a problem defining English. That doesn't even consider local slang words and phrases.

American English is not really any different to English, apart from the spelling mistakes :), but as it is a mix of a number of other languages, what is the base to work from?

wot? they don't speak proper like what we do?

Nosirreebob !

Hmm if a word is defined by its use, and if everyone uses it in a certain way, then according to caedes it would be correct. Too bad that doesn't apply to school exams, eh? Btw, this is meant to be a light discussion... arguing about words is an eccentricity of mine shared and understood by a few, but generally confusing (sort of like calculus...).

or string theory

Ok...curious...where exactly dos Ebonix fall in here? If language is the property of society, which I agree that it is...tell me, what is fo' shizzle? I think if one can relay a concept or idea to another, and that other person is clear on what the first one is relaying...then frankling I don't care whether it is a tomayto or a tomahto...it goes on a salad, with some bleu cheese dressing...and to me, that's all I care about.

Rescue the english language?

I thnk UR2L8

King & Queens English....... I think you would be hard pressed to find 5% of Brits speaking the lyrical tongue of my ancestors.

However spelling transcends all versions and admitadley Monsieur Caedes it completely revolves around the fact of accent and regionalisation. Concurrent beliefs that American Microsoft word "does not have a clue" due to Americanisms of our language are found and based on origional philosophy of our language. Concider this world = multicultural, leading on evolution and paraphrasing of the written & spoken word will naturally occur especially when the world of communication transcends all other formats concurrently such as WWW. Take for example text messages. 1 Ease of use i.e. some weird and wonderfull abbreviations. 2 we still know what they mean. The lingual fabrication we all take it on ourselves to ellaborate on is only what gives us identity. My saying is "Ive got you well sussed" (this suits multiple situations for me) what is yours?

How do pronounce EDINBURGH? E DIN-BURG / EDIN-BURO?

Take the world we live you choose SEM-IIII (drawn out with texan drawl "no offence"), I say SEMI. Clear concices and succinct.

Also AlllOOOMINUM, I say A L U M I N I U M (every letter is pronounced and finished unlike the prior).

Worst one ERB, it has a H for a reason! unlike erbal essences shampoo and conditioner. Where has the ( H ) gone?

We are all just different, culture, belief systems & cycles, weather therefore climate, ethnically. As we evolve into a race of coffee coloured individuals (1 love, 1 world) we are going to end up with 1 language with lots of differences in accents and words (if we get there). So from this point accept differences and from me also accept there is no right and wrong any more.

Bows to Bluechip,

We just sound better. ;-)

Oh P.S. America & Australia bar descendents of the actual occupants of these great continents before we landed where did you all come from? Lets have a little respect for the greatest know language on the planet. ppppppsssssssstttttt steam valve released in cranium. ;-)

I'm sorry guys there is no such language any more. It has been submersed in so many other ethnic tongues that has and is completely on its way to becoming a sub tongue of various other languages. It has become broken, absorbed and butchered by the diversity of mixed tongues. In the US of A we have Ebonics and spanglish and a melting pot of cultures that have created there own versions of the English language.

very true...wat prismmagic said...slang has actually taken over the language also :)

Not a chance! Professors, doctors, lawyers... anyone in a profession where communication is important still knows and speaks good English. It's simply an expectation of the position. English is still the official international language of business, and anyone wishing to close a deal, be they American, Asian, or European, needs to be able to communicate effectively. To further this, American and Canadian language standards are some of the lowest in the world... in most European countries, everyone is completely bilingual, and most are trilingual. English is not a dead or dying language if you look outside America... it's the standard by which intercultural communication occurs.

That is because the American and Canadian enter mix of ethnic groups is much higher. That means that the educational standards are lower. There is over a million aliens that are entering America alone each year to live. Try to educate that level of in flux in an over taxed system.
In European you will find countries that are so close together that they are required to speak more then one language or pick it up very easily. If you learn German or a nortic language you can learn the basics of many another countries languages. How many of you speak Chinese or Japanese. Do you even realize how many different ethnic backgrounds are in this country and 17 % of them refuse to learn English because in there communities have no need to learn it, and even higher in the Hispanic groups.
There are places here called little Mexico, little Saigon, little Korea, little India, and on and on. Many of the people in these areas speak very little or no English at all. They have know intention of doing so. Many of them don’t even leave the area so that they have to.

Granted. But if it's dying, it's only dying in the States.

A language begins "dying" (evolving) as soon as it is created. This is due to the simple fact that no language a is perfect form of communication. People change it to fit their own needs. If enough people start using a given "change" then it becomes an "official" part of the language (i.e. they put it in the dictionaries). We see this all the time as new words and new meanings for old words are added to the dictionaries every year. Sure, they initially label it as slang, but even that qualifier is removed after long enough.

I agree with Geri on this one. If we are truly talking about a language perticurly the english language you will find that it changes a the days go by. Take for instance the the english of just 200 years ago. Do you really think it is the same as to day. In another 200 hundred years you would not understand as to day.

Only dying in the states, eh?

somehow I knew this was the root of your argument

Yes it must that evil old US of A. It just can't be words from the other side pond like bobsyouruncle and words like howsyougoin or several words that the brits may use that we poor amaricans can't even understand, like buggers . That has nothinng to do with the down fall of the english laguage does it. LOL !

Oh that’s right where the colonies it must be our fault. He he he he.

Exactly

LOL!

good point :-) Time to subjugate the Provinces again.

LOL! Don't forget It was us poor unegumicated hick under armed back woods colonist who kicked your buts all of the way back to england with a little help from our friends the French. And as we Americans would say in the army and marines, whora! Boulya!
LOL

The only way the Americans beat the English was by depriving them of tea... without their staple, the Brits just shriveled up ;D

That's what I thought. Maybe you Britt’s should take up coffee, preferably a Louise Ana brad like colony, you have to cut it with a pair of scissors when you pour it. It may give you a stronger constitution? Get it? Constitution! LOL he, he, he!

G'day Mate... Dunno what the prob is wiff the english language seems just hunky dorey to me we speak awright ova here.. Crikey you need to come here and learn the real english language.. I'll chuck some shrimp on the barbie for ya.. hehehehehehehe (sorry could not resist that.. im stressed... and need sleep.... lol)

Well done Jacqueline....LOL

Ta Mate stoked u enjoyed it.. =D

Cretins.

Boors.

Well, I'm completely gropeable now...

no worries mate, she'll be right ;)

English is a germanic language..not romantic, although many words are Latin..

English - King royal, rule, regal
Dutch - koning

French - roi

Hindi - raja

The English words regal, rule, royal, etc, are Latin, while king/queen are Viking/Nordic words

Well...actually English is a blend of languages, therefore a pain in the neck to learn apparently.

I never had any difficulty.. Easiest language for me.. Of course I don't speak any other.

exactly, people who learn it as a second language find it hard to work with, it doesn't always make sense.

I'm still duct-taped up by Piner for an earlier comment, but he forgot to tape my typing finger...

As Andrew says, English is a blend, but part of the difficulty is that the root languages are all piled in on top of each other, so we've ended up with multiple words for the same thing. An example is start and stop - good old monosyllabic Anglo-Saxon words, sufficient for any language. But English also has begin and end, from the German, and commence and finish, from the French. And often subtle differences in usage have evolved which, because the words all translate to the same thing in other languages, are difficult for a foreign student to grasp.

To go back to James' original point, I won't take sides in any "tomayto" / "tomahto" argument, because I don't see any sides - each is right in its own environment. It's like asking for arguments for or against dollars or pounds - you use whichever is acceptable where you happen to be. It doesn't mean one or the other is right or wrong.

English has it's roots in Greek, Latin, and Anglo-Saxon.

*hog-ties Simon with a whole roll of duct tape*

I think that all languages must evolve, it just depends on what we want them to evolve into. I for one don't want to see us all talking in monosyllables....though chat to me at five o'clock in the morning and you'd think language hadn't advanced from the days when we were all called Ugg and Oog.

But if it weren't for evolution there wouldn't be any French, Italian, Spanish or Romanian, they evolved from Latin. 'Vulgar' Latin, that which was spoken by the commoners in the days of Ancient Rome, eventually evolved into these modern European languages.

So if English evolved from Latin, indeed many writers up until a few hundred years ago still wrote in Latin; then technically what many people think of the text language today is what the Ancient Romans would have thought of English...

hw bout u cm to th prty tnite..... ahhh.....music to my bleeding ears...