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National I.D. Card

::stuffnstuff
05/04/06 12:53 AM GMT
I know there are a bunch of us from many countries, but I also know that many countries are considering the National I.D. Card. I was just wondering where everybody fits in. Do you know anything about the I.D. card? Do you know if your government is planning to start one? Are you for it, against it, or apathetic?
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Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens]

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+Samatar
05/04/06 1:06 PM GMT
They have just recently decided against it here, although they are introducing a card for welfare recipients... I was never very concerned about it either way. Civil rights groups didn't like it because they said the government would have access to private information (same thing they always say) but I honestly can't think of anything they could learn about me that I would be worried about. I guess I'm not interesting enough *shrugs*
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
&KEIFER
05/04/06 1:16 PM GMT
what's the credit limit and APR ??
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I'm a Fire-Starter, twisted fire-starter
.scionlord
05/04/06 2:41 PM GMT
I don't mind the ID card (well initially...now it looks like being used for all sorts of things)....it is the National Database with loads of information in one spot....not the brightest idea in the world.
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius
&philcUK
05/04/06 5:46 PM GMT
but then it's a New Labour idea so what else could you possibly expect? Parliament doesnt want it in either house, the public don't want it - so we get it foisted on us anyways. still at least it will be easier to identify the politicians when they get caught with their pants down. again.
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::stuffnstuff
05/04/06 6:46 PM GMT
Sam, it isn't the first time. They decided against it in '87 as well. As for all the information in one place, that would be bad enough, but to make the card useful, they would have to be able to access it from nearly everywhere.

I wrote an essay about it recently, and since I am learning about the topic, I thought it would be interesting to get a feel for other people's opinions. Should I post the essay?
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Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens]
.scionlord
05/04/06 9:16 PM GMT
We're all doomed. If you like.
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius
+Samatar
05/04/06 10:15 PM GMT
Sounds like you must know more about Australian politics than I do, Luke...
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
::Hottrockin
05/04/06 10:22 PM GMT
We should all be tagged at birth...with like a tattoo or something...that sounds familiar, hmmm.

Or we could all be embedded with a micro chip...kinda like they do peoples pets in case they get lost.

8+D
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.animaniactoo
05/04/06 10:41 PM GMT
*waits to find out I'm really a battery*
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One man sees things and says "why?", but I dream things that never were and say "why not?"
::Hottrockin
05/04/06 11:00 PM GMT
~plugging you in now to check~

AC/DC, hmmm

Partial battery and partial electricity...elecattery!!

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.scionlord
05/04/06 11:17 PM GMT
*is probably a flat battery*
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius
::J_272004
05/04/06 11:40 PM GMT
LOL.. why have an ID card.. when they can put a microchip in you just like they do for animals.. lol.. then they can really checkup and see what your up to.. lol
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"A sense of humour is as important to life as shock absorbers to a car.. It helps us over the bumps im life" / P.K. Shaw
::cgImagery
05/04/06 11:42 PM GMT
lol no microchips!

and i think luke is gonna run for president...i just think so
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::laurengary
05/04/06 11:48 PM GMT
Then we can say we knew him "when "
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Ask Not For Whom The Bell Tolls .......Let The Machine Get It ........ MY GALLERY
::stuffnstuff
05/05/06 2:00 AM GMT
I know very little about American politics, much less Austrailian. Doing research for the paper, I read a newspaper article written in '87 saying that Australia was rejecting the idea. I don't mean to intimidate...I am certainly not in the position to do it...

This micro-chip idea is just another form of the I.D. card, not a seperate projetc or an alternative. National I.D. Cards could be as simple as a picture and signature or as complex as an imbedded chip with DNA specifications, iris details, medical history, library fines, previous actions influencing political allignment, and credit use.

A national I.D. card requires a national database with millions of access points, yet still secure and above counterfeiting. It will be enormously expensive, create identity theft problems we can only dream of right now, and the government's surveillance on us will be higher than it ever has been before. Also, there is little information on how it would actually increase security.
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Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens]
+Samatar
05/05/06 2:28 AM GMT
Well I certainly don't remember anything about that! I guess I was probably too young to care about such things at the time.
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
::stuffnstuff
05/05/06 3:21 AM GMT
And I wasn't even alive. :-) Here is the essay:

National (Irrational) I.D. Card

Identity is a valuable thing. You pay psychologists to find it, honor the government for maintaining it, and perform superstitious acts to protect it. If all three of the above could be handed to you and stored in your wallet, would you accept?

The idea of a national I.D. card has been around for decades (Hall), but since we have not implemented it, the card can not be defined in clear, visual terms. The common idea has been that it would be a credit-card sized piece of plastic containing standard elements of identification, such as a photo, signature, and so on (Kronholz, Providence Journal, Safire). Depending on the form of information storage, the card may sport a close cousin to the barcode for further detail. It could potentially contain, or be reduced to, an electronic chip hosting reams of information regarding much more than your persona (Kronholz, Safire).

This card is thought to be an effective way of confirming your identity. Whenever you apply for a job, open a bank account, travel to a different country, or indulge on a lavish purchase, it is in your best interest for the second party to have proof of your identification. Knowing and proving your identity is necessary for your protection; you wouldn’t want someone pretending to be you managing your bank account, using your money, or unwittingly forcing you to indulge for their purchase, would you?

Unfortunately, there is more to the I.D. card than just proving our identity for our safety and that of our finances. While many claim that this card will be monumental to our security in this age in which we make contact with hundreds of strangers each day, others view it as a massive security breach. For these cards to be accurate and specific, they must contain detailed personal information. With this information now available to whomever checks your identity, and with our frequent need for identification due to our lifestyles, hundreds of individuals suddenly have access to your most detailed information. There are two sides to this issue: some believe that the National I.D. Card is a natural part of the essence of government, giving up fringe rights to protect ourselves, but others believe the exact opposite.

The right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins, which is the essence of government. Likewise, Dershowitz offers, “a little less anonymity for a lot more security,” as promotion of the card, yet human nature dictates that some are going to continue to swing their fists whether your nose is there or not. It is reasonably logical and ethical to protect your nose by moving out of the way – the same applies to the National I.D. Card.

The first major concern involves identity theft. Our identity is a tangible thing: it can be found, embraced, stolen, and destroyed; handing it over to someone else often will result in a negative outcome. Millions of individuals can attest to this fact and millions more have heard of these stories. Identity theft constitutes one of the chief concerns among the Baby Boomer generation as well as their parents. This new flavor of burglary has grown into a national crisis. Our ever-increasing amount of electronic theft, the white collar crime, poses a threat that is hard to deal with; it is difficult to keep our technology above the thief’s while simultaneously keeping all citizens informed on how to protect their identity. One might wonder the advantage of stealing someone’s identity, but the answer is clear: if you appear, by all accounts, to be that person, you have access to all of his or her assets with no opposition.

The national I.D. card is relevant because it could potentially be the key factor in loosing the bonds that keep identity theft in check. Suppose you stow your I.D. card in your wallet keeping it with the rest of your cards; somebody steals your wallet and gets a lot more than the greenbacks sitting in the wallet’s folds: your photo I.D., signature, fingerprint, birth date, and social security number. The key tools used in identification now fall into the criminals hands. He is free to do as he pleases, even to the extent of pillaging your assets. Yet, if the cards are kept simple, containing the bare minimum of information to unquestionably prove your identity, the national database, required to make this system work, still contains all of the crucial-to-theft information. Do you want the kid behind the counter in every retail store in the country to be looking at your private information without restraint?

Many people have considered the ease of purchases if our I.D. card also becomes our credit card and bank card. It could be easily combined into one piece of plastic, but is that wise? If your card is stolen, the thief not only has your social security number, but your account numbers and corresponding balances as well as a plethora of other confidential strings of characters. If these numbers were to be included in the electronic chip, it is feasible for a person to walk on any city bus, ride for a block, and step off with an electronic copy of every passenger’s identification and private information. “Technology being considered for use in the cards could allow thieves with hand-held devices to steal the information on them from up to 20 feet away” (Halper). The wonders of wireless technology make security as easily broken as fine china, and this I.D. card is the earthquake to set it in motion. "As far as national I.D. cards are concerned there are guys in basements who turn out fake credit cards that fool all the security in place to detect those, so who’s kidding whom about the probability of falsifying national I.D. cards? Personally, I have shown my passport at airports as I.D. when checking in and was recently told by one checker-inner that she preferred that to a driver’s license for authenticity and accuracy. I don’t know why; a kid with a computer can make either." (Sorensen) It would be complete idiocy to construct a national database, key for the national I.D. card to exist (Wakin), at our current understanding of counterfeiting and security.

Another issue that must be taken into consideration is the cost of the national I.D. card. By cost, I don’t mean the trivial fee required for the local governmental office to snap your picture and transfer it to wherever it needs to go, but the cost of setting up this new infrastructure. Evan Halper states, “The National Conference of State Legislatures has put the total price tag for states between $9 billion and $13 billion.” To positively identify somebody, the card must contain every conceivable form of identification: While photographs, fingerprints, and signatures are a given, iris details are just around the corner, and DNA samples and vocal patterns are not out of the question (Hamilton, Safire). To be effective, the system needs to be detailed, and detailed fingerprints and diagrams of each individual iris prove difficult to store. To have these be of any use, every place that requires identification, such as airports and banks, must have the equipment necessary to read your information and the technology to access the national database containing all similar information for comparison. Also, the staff identifying you and your crosschecking with the national infrastructure must be trained in doing so to complete the task efficiently and without creating a security breach. Every border crossing and every airport must be stocked with the most advanced equipment, and you only need to travel to the local electronics store to see how expensive technology is. Without a doubt, the cost would escalate to billions in order to implement such a massive database that could be accessed wherever needed and billions more to keep it secure (Hamilton). You have to look no farther than your paycheck to see where they will be taking the money to build this network. Is the outrageous cost a small price to pay for identity and security? One could say yes if we were absolutely positive we would be able to maintain either, but evidence indicates that the national I.D. card would do just the opposite. “Mandating drastic change to new unproven technologies might actually weaken the security of citizens” (Halper). Is it still worth the cost?

The third major concern deals with security. We obtain security through a compromise of rights. An appropriate example can be found in feudalism. Serfs, the common folk, unable to protect themselves, would turn to lords for protection. The lords, owners of land, would allow the serfs to live on their land and work it for the lords’ profit. In exchange, they would provide military protection. Through this arrangement, the lords achieved security in having prosperity and food while the serfs no longer had to worry about physical protection. Likewise, the lords would swear loyalty to a king, securing their property, and the king would call upon them for soldiers or taxes, further insuring his position. Security of identity has already been addressed, but what about physical security? It is not as simple for us today to turn to others for physical protection as it was in the days of Feudalism. Nobody likes hearing about *self-destructing extremists* [my internet protection took out my original word choice] or similar scares because we don’t want it to happen to us. Safire adds, “All of us are willing to give up some of our personal privacy in return for greater safety. That’s why we gladly suffer the pat-downs and ‘wanding’ at airports, and show a local photo ID before boarding.” We ask our government for reasonable laws and procedures that eliminate most of the violent threats, as did the serfs to the lords, but it is not feasible or reasonable to take the precautions required for absolute protection. Sure, we can check airline passengers to make sure that none are carrying firearms, but it is not feasible to catch every conceivable substitute for a weapon that may be brought on board the aircraft and it is not reasonable to put each passenger under constant surveillance the year before the flight. The government does what it can, including taking precautions against technology in protecting its citizens.

Yet this does not mean that we shouldn’t ignore security, for security is a valid concern for every denizen, as we were shown on September 11th. “The ability of the 9/11 hijackers to purchase airline tickets and get around passport and border officials so easily with forged documents was a stunning blow at liberty and freedom of movement.” (Hall) Just living life the way you do makes you subject to serious security threats, few of which you can control. We, as a nation, need to find a solution. Many have suggested that this solution is the national I.D. card, capable of providing solid proof of who you are and, therefore, what you are capable of. They have utter confidence that this card will speed up travel times, job applications, and border crossings. They believe that this piece of plastic will solve issues of national security in a single act. Somehow, I fail to understand their reasoning. Suppose we let those carrying a national I.D. card whisk through airport security with minimal encumbrances: yes, we have reduced travel time dramatically, but we accomplish nothing; you don’t have to be wearing a turban to take down a plane. American citizens, as are all humans, are quite capable of committing atrocities on their own, and now we are shuttling them through on trust alone. Hamilton quotes, “The [Canadian] government is trying to look for a reason to go with an I.D. card, but at the same time, they already appear to be committed to it.” There is no evidence that this wonder card will be able to provide serenity in place of identity theft or physical harm. In response to the attacks on September 11th, 2001, Cavoukian said, “People wanted to feel secure, so feel-good measures that created the illusion of security were embraced” (quoted by Demara). If the same principles apply, perhaps this card is a breach of security rather than the patch.

If the I.D. card is to be put in motion, the citizens must be aware that it will result in a significant increase in surveillance. The government keeps track of when you use your passport, and it is used when you travel, for that is its purpose. “Nobody wanted to talk in favour of privacy right after 9 11. In the U.S., it was considered unpatriotic” (Demara). Yet if you have a government issued card for everything, anytime you do anything, they will know. “The specter of Big Brother”, coined by Dershowitz, would no longer be just an apparition, but the present. Promoters of the I.D. card support it because of its universal application: your driver’s license, insurance card, credit card, medical card, library card, and gym card all in one, and let’s not forget about your investments, experience, travels, and education! (Providence Journal) The problem with using the same card for everything is that every one of those services assisted by the card can take a deep look into all the other personal areas. With the click of a mouse, your banker can see your medical record, your insurance agency can take a peek at prior arrests, your credit provider will deem you unacceptable because you have library fines, and your investment advisor will be reading into your education and recent travels. Put simply: the more useful the card is, the less you will want to use it. With everyone you meet looking over your shoulder at any potential mistakes, you will resort to using cash and old fashion cards to stock the shelves of your wallet. Do you really want to be asked, “What do you have to hide?” (Safire)

What is even more disturbing is who has access to your information. Not only can high-up government officials take a peek now and then for security reasons, but also the average working-class citizen who works nine-to-five and comes home winded and looking for relaxation. You may or may not have anything to hide, but do you want the public looking in at every one of your secrets? Even if your secrets are kept from the work force, mandatory surveillance still has access, and who does the government hire to do the watching, these days? Big Brother indeed. Buckley comments, “Sowell sees a tunnel ahead, and the light at the end of it is the complete submission by the individual to the government.” It is the universal application of the national I.D. card that sinks it, and if that is the only thing it has going for itself, we shouldn’t even consider implementation.

Due to identity theft, the cost, valid security issues, and surveillance outside of reason, this card is not a good idea. If we find a way to cheaply set up and maintain the system while capping all security concerns and honoring privacy, perhaps it wouldn’t be such a bad idea. But since there is no such proverbial silver platter for the National I.D. Card to arrive on, perhaps the idea should be rejected. It is, after all, social prosperity, prominent identity, and financial welfare at stake. Why gamble?

(Note, this essay is just as copy-written as any of my image posts. Turnitin.com knows all about it.)
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Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens]
::DigiCamMan
05/05/06 4:14 AM GMT
Revelation 13: 11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
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If God lived on earth, people would break his windows. Jewish Proverb........ My Gallery
::stuffnstuff
05/05/06 4:16 AM GMT
It makes you really wonder about those chip ideas. And Cub Food's new tamp!
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Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens]
::DigiCamMan
05/05/06 4:33 AM GMT
Check out Digital Angel and some of IBM's new projects. They say the best place to put these chips are in the right hand or the forehead. Why the right hand? Because God said so.
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If God lived on earth, people would break his windows. Jewish Proverb........ My Gallery
+mayne
05/05/06 4:50 AM GMT
Flashbacks of "Bladerunner"
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Darryl
::DigiCamMan
05/05/06 5:39 AM GMT
It seems Hollywood and those in the know always tip their hand before doing something. Those in the know are heavily into the occult and literally have to do it it by the numbers....like 9-11-32- 33-7 and 666.
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If God lived on earth, people would break his windows. Jewish Proverb........ My Gallery
&philcUK
05/05/06 6:28 PM GMT
But Bladerunner (or at least the book it was derived from) was written by a schizophrenic manic depressive Christian who had a profound interest in all things relating to theology, gnosticism, mysticism, psychology and metaphysics – hardly your stereotypical occultist ‘in the know’ Hollywood stereotype.
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.scionlord
05/05/06 6:32 PM GMT
Here is an article by Wired News about RFID security...or the lack of it....The RFID-Hacking Underground.
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius
::DigiCamMan
05/07/06 8:02 AM GMT
If this "Christian" was into all these things he was not a Christian I assure you. Isn't it odd how one always associates Christians with nuts? I would imagine that's direct from the mind of Satan.
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If God lived on earth, people would break his windows. Jewish Proverb........ My Gallery
&philcUK
05/07/06 8:42 AM GMT
well maybe he wasnt your brand of Christian - each subdivision of the Christian religion - like most other faiths - hate each others guts and defame each opposing sect at any possible opportunity but that wouldnt make him any less of a Christian if that's what he professed his religious credentials to be.
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::stuffnstuff
05/07/06 7:37 PM GMT
If I proclaim myself to be Buddhist but start sacrificing children and drinking their blood, most to all Buddhists would say I am a nut case. Christianity has the opportunity to deal with itself in the way no other religion has because its essence has been twisted farther from the start than any other. The United States, the "Christian" nation, is less Christian than any other country I know of. I don't want celebrities, radicals, or rioters speaking for me because we are both "Christian"...we couldn't disagree more on most issues.
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Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens]
&philcUK
05/07/06 7:43 PM GMT
You'll find that many religions behave in similar manners - take for example the radical extremes and violence that occurs between the different Islamic sects. It seams to be more prevalent though in the relatively 'new' religions such as Christianity and Islam.
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.animaniactoo
05/07/06 8:19 PM GMT
this is my sole comment on both subjects in this thread

A) If I need an organized religion to tell me how to behave towards other people then what I need is psychotherapy, not religion. I believe that how I treat those I meet in life and the areas I travel through is the only measure I care about. I appreciate traditions (bring on the latkes!), but I do not need to place my faith in rituals and unknown forces to live a life that is decent and good.

B) There is no such thing as an uncrackable encryption code. Only those that are harder to crack. I do believe that Big Brother is on it's way/partly already here, and I do fight against it where and how I can.
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One man sees things and says "why?", but I dream things that never were and say "why not?"
::DigiCamMan
05/07/06 8:20 PM GMT
What defines a Christian? What is the essence of being a Christian. Firstly a Christian is no more than a forgiven sinner. Why forgiven? He or she asked to be forgiven because we ALL have sinned...and do sin. So what makes a Christian other than repenting of ones sins?

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Now....do you even love your neighbor?
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If God lived on earth, people would break his windows. Jewish Proverb........ My Gallery
&philcUK
05/07/06 8:28 PM GMT
so why does all that make Philip K Dick a Heretic? & why do so many ‘Christians’ then treat their fellow human beings with such abject contempt, disdain and spite?
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::DigiCamMan
05/07/06 8:31 PM GMT
Because they simply are not Christians...they give lip service.

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

You see? Satan has his own who appear as righteous yet they are the most wicked. These are the ones who deceive you. Money preachers and even far worse. Satan has a mission to get your soul and he has pulled out all stops. You are more of a victim than you could ever imagine.
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If God lived on earth, people would break his windows. Jewish Proverb........ My Gallery
&philcUK
05/07/06 8:35 PM GMT
that kind of marginalises the christian faith quite a lot do you not think?
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&philcUK
05/07/06 8:36 PM GMT
never mind that - can someone drag this thread back on topic - stereo theological discussions isnt going to pan out well :-)
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::DigiCamMan
05/07/06 8:36 PM GMT
Not at all...it's just all that simple.
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If God lived on earth, people would break his windows. Jewish Proverb........ My Gallery
::DigiCamMan
05/07/06 8:37 PM GMT
It never "pans out" to an unbeliever and never will.
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If God lived on earth, people would break his windows. Jewish Proverb........ My Gallery
::DigiCamMan
05/07/06 8:39 PM GMT
Phil...who do you think is behind National ID cards (marks..tracking) and why?
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If God lived on earth, people would break his windows. Jewish Proverb........ My Gallery
&philcUK
05/07/06 8:40 PM GMT
par exemple
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.animaniactoo
05/07/06 8:40 PM GMT
and perhaps some people would simply like to have a theoretical debate that did not always include religion
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One man sees things and says "why?", but I dream things that never were and say "why not?"
::DigiCamMan
05/07/06 8:42 PM GMT
And maybe not.
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If God lived on earth, people would break his windows. Jewish Proverb........ My Gallery
&philcUK
05/07/06 8:47 PM GMT
as I said - please get back to the original subject matter if at all possible.
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::stuffnstuff
05/07/06 9:03 PM GMT
Religion and hypocrisy come hand in hand, always. The Bible has a lot to say about hypocrisy and those practicing it:

"You clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness." (Matthew 23:25-27)

The biggest religious teachers of the day got too caught up in the acts and lost understanding of why they were supposed to be doing it and how it all works. Standing on street corners shouting repetetive prayers and publicly giving large sums of money to the church is not what it is about.

Likewise, all these demonstrationists with signs saying "God Hates Gays" got it all wrong. God loves gays and God loves homosexuals, and you can't convince me otherwise. That does not mean that God likes the sin. He loves you whether or not you are living in sin (which all of us are because humanity can't escape sin), but He would prefer it if we cast aside the sexual immorality. Also, homosexuality is no worse than any other sin, including simple lying. They are the same in God's eyes. Every "Christian" that attends hate groups against gays needs to either check the Bible or their definition of Christian.

"So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." (Matthew 23:28)

We need to check our motives for what we are doing and logically reconsider if our actions are worth it. If it is just "lip service", perhaps we aren't being honest with the world.
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Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens]
&philcUK
05/07/06 9:06 PM GMT
play nice kiddies :-)
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::stuffnstuff
05/07/06 9:07 PM GMT
Oops, several people commented while I was writing my last post. I do have more to say, but this probably isn't the place. I do not apologize for what I beleive, but I do apologize for disregarding other's requests about the topic at hand.
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Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens]
&philcUK
05/07/06 9:19 PM GMT
no problem.
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::stuffnstuff
05/07/06 9:45 PM GMT
So. I heard that Australia rejected the idea again. :-D
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Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens]
+Samatar
05/07/06 10:16 PM GMT
I have got to stop reading these bloody posts... they get me so burned up, even though I know I shouldn't care about the opinions of people I hardly know...
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
::stuffnstuff
05/07/06 10:25 PM GMT
Close your eyes as we keep slappin' eachother up the back side of the head. ;-)
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Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens]
.Caiden
05/08/06 2:37 AM GMT
I personally agree with Digicam Man and partially with StuffNStuff.

Once they start issuing people National ID Cards, the next step is a world government and that is extremely dangerous.

They have your Identification, and know everything about you, (which isn't much different than now.) But then they start telling you, that you can't buy food without the card, that you can't do business unless you have it.

And that sets up the way for some tyrant, (The next Hitler, Nero, AntiChrist, Whatever you want to call him, as long as it doesn't offend your delicate sensibilities.). Then all that tyrant has to do is refuse to give the card to anyone who doesn't serve him and do whatever he wants.

It's the same with the micro-chip thing. Sooner or later you won't be able to buy food unless you scan your chip. You won't be able to do business unless you have the chip. The powers that be at the time will be able to know exactly where you are, exactly what you're doing, and so on.

This is Dangerous Ground. If the world continues down this path it is headed for a One World Government and then possibly, A One World Religion.

And don't tell me I'm getting off of the subject here, It's directly related.

To have a system where the Powers that Be know exaclty where each person under their rule is, where they know exactly what they are doing, and control whether or not they buy or sell or do any kind of business, THAT IS TOO MUCH POWER FOR ANY GOVERMENT! All they would have left to do is set themselves up as the ultimate authorities, to set themselves up as gods or demi-gods.

It takes away freedom, it takes away the possibility that the people can abolish the government if it gets too tyranical, as our constitution grants us the right.

As I said, far far far too dangerous.
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Beauty is by design. In nature, and all things.
::stuffnstuff
05/08/06 3:26 AM GMT
I partially agree, but you are probably subject to the Slippery Slope fallacy (if I eat those three M&M's, I will get fat, all my friends will despise me, and I will commit scuicide). This kind of speculation scares me, so I try to make it not count. :-)

When I did research for the essay, I saw a lot of people mention the fact that made everybody in Germany carry "papers", and this kind of move would be related.

Speaking of the essay, did anybody read it? What did you think?
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Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens]
::DigiCamMan
05/08/06 8:13 AM GMT
One must also realize there is a very expensive payoff for taking the mark of the beast whatever it may be. Many Christians will accept certain death to avoid ever taking that mark...that's how serious it is.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

If this is true, and I am certain it is, what do you suppose happens to those who take the mark? Maybe you should investigate even if you don't believe. Just so you know what it's all about when you see some of your friends and neighbors disappear.
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If God lived on earth, people would break his windows. Jewish Proverb........ My Gallery
::stuffnstuff
05/08/06 5:14 PM GMT
The problem with us preaching the end times is that people have been doing so for about two millenia. We always say it is just around the corner, which encourages everyone else to accurately say, "Well, they were wrong before..." The more you look into it, the more it appears that it will be less than a thousand years (I can get into it if you want me to), but, again, we always have been saying it is nye.
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Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens]
&philcUK
05/08/06 5:43 PM GMT
There is already another theological ‘debate’ going in this forum so please revert back to topic in this thread and avoid going off on unrelated tangents of faith and doctrine.

As for I.D. cards themselves, I don’t see the big issue of personal invasion with them as such. Compared to the many other ways our lives our monitored by both government and non government organisations and agencies, I.D. cards are virtually small fry. Far more personal and relevant biometric information about you is recorded and archived every time you are admitted to a medical institution and despite what your doctors would like you to believe, government security agencies no longer need court orders to access this information and can obtain it as easy as you can access this page. Upcoming and current consumer technology especially sat nav on mobile phones and in cars will further open up the availability of personal tracking and monitoring to agencies to the point where at every waking moment someone somewhere will know where you are and even what you are doing – without ever needing to look at an I.D. card.
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.Caiden
05/08/06 6:35 PM GMT
I hate to copy and paste, but I'm in a hurry and what I said before still fits very well now.

And Phil, just because they already might be part-way there, doesn't make it right. And it doesn't mean we shouldn't fight it for all we are worth. If we didn't, we would be giving up. And that is one thing I refuse to do.

Copied comment that has to do with what has been said: ---

They have your Identification, and know everything about you, (which isn't much different than now.) But then they start telling you, that you can't buy food without the card, that you can't do business unless you have it.

And that sets up the way for some tyrant, (The next Hitler, Nero, AntiChrist, Whatever you want to call him, as long as it doesn't offend your delicate sensibilities.). Then all that tyrant has to do is refuse to give the card to anyone who doesn't serve him and do whatever he wants.

It's the same with the micro-chip thing. Sooner or later you won't be able to buy food unless you scan your chip. You won't be able to do business unless you have the chip. The powers that be at the time will be able to know exactly where you are, exactly what you're doing, and so on.

This is Dangerous Ground. If the world continues down this path it is headed for a One World Government and then possibly, A One World Religion.

And don't tell me I'm getting off of the subject here, It's directly related.

To have a system where the Powers that Be know exaclty where each person under their rule is, where they know exactly what they are doing, and control whether or not they buy or sell or do any kind of business, THAT IS TOO MUCH POWER FOR ANY GOVERMENT! All they would have left to do is set themselves up as the ultimate authorities, to set themselves up as gods or demi-gods.

It takes away freedom, it takes away the possibility that the people can abolish the government if it gets too tyranical, as our constitution grants us the right.

As I said, far far far too dangerous.
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Beauty is by design. In nature, and all things.
&philcUK
05/08/06 6:41 PM GMT
No it isn’t right – not by a long mark – but the fact remains it’s a fait d'accompli and I cant help thinking it’s there for no other reason than to distract people from the larger picture of state spying on it’s own citizens.
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::stuffnstuff
05/08/06 7:47 PM GMT
I have an idea. Lets, as Caedesians, spy on our governments. Of there is a new world order, we Caedesians should be the ones doing the ruling. Aediles member of the world, now how does that sound, Phil?
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Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens]
&philcUK
05/08/06 7:51 PM GMT
for the benefit of the men in the black vans watching this - i dont know this person and have no idea what he is talking about ;-)
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.scionlord
05/08/06 9:15 PM GMT
It is the Tesco delivery vans...you see them everywhere...
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius
::stuffnstuff
05/08/06 9:18 PM GMT
I personally prefer the Krispy Kreme trucks.

Does Caedes take bribes? Maybe he could make me the official "Caedes Mascot"! :-D
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Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens]
.scionlord
05/08/06 9:21 PM GMT
I suppose it could be the BT vans as well....mind you....check out all those Royal Mail vans...
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius
::DigiCamMan
05/09/06 4:52 AM GMT
How do you want this thread to go Phil? Your way or the truth? If the Bible which is prophecy says there will be a one world government and there will be a mark to be able to buy or sell and an allegience to a man who says he is leader and God doesn't that fit this thread? Must all believe as you, which is unbelief? There are at least two sides in a discussion why is it you want to quiet us? Scare you does it? What other motive? Hate Christians? No? Offended by the word of God? What then?

Did you know that men are even appointed unto disbelief? Yet every man is given a measure of faith. Every man has a choice and you better settle it now because I am here to tell you the end is closer than you really think. It may have gone on for centuries but it's almost over. Watch what happens in the U.S., global warming (prophesied), and Iran-Russia-China and the fulfillment of Ezekiel 38-39. Then call me crazy.
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If God lived on earth, people would break his windows. Jewish Proverb........ My Gallery
.Caiden
05/09/06 1:26 PM GMT
These things don't mean anything to phil. No words we can speak, or write, or do, will sway him to right thinking, but the Words of God, the Bible.

We have planted a seed, and Another may Water, But God grants the increase. It may be, that he will not believe until all of the Christians dissapear in the Rapture just before the Tribulation. Maybe then he'll believe. I just hope if that is the case, that he lives long enough to see it. Because even he is not guaranteed tomorrow. Phil, you may die tonight, and then, what will happen to you?

And phil, this is a questioning thread about National I.D. Cards, and what we think of them. We are allowed to voice our opinion, and why we think the way we do, just as much as the next person. Try and be a little more tolerant of our beliefs. Just because we believe it's wrong for Spiritual reasons, doesn't make our opinion any less valid than you.
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Beauty is by design. In nature, and all things.
::stuffnstuff
05/09/06 3:11 PM GMT
Whoa, hold on here, folks. I don't want to be rude, but that is some serious Bible Thumping. Phil is reasonably voicing his beliefs and doing his assigned duty to keep this thread on track. I agree with you guys to some extent, but tone it down a few notches. You have just as much right to call it the end times as he does to say it isn't, and since neither side is going to convince the other of what they think is right, it has officially crossed the line from discussion or debate to argument. Phil doesn't Christians or even dislike them, but even I don't like Bible Thumping.

What I originally started the thread was to ask whether you know if your government is planning one or not, whether you want one or not, and if so, how complex it should be (in regards to medical records, purchase records, and recent travels or simply a photo and fingerprint). You are free to say that it is acting out what was written in Revelation so long ago, but don't even get near the scent of war-mongering.
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Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens]
.Caiden
05/09/06 5:23 PM GMT
As I said,

"And phil, this is a questioning thread about National I.D. Cards, and what we think of them. We are allowed to voice our opinion, and why we think the way we do, just as much as the next person. Try and be a little more tolerant of our beliefs. Just because we believe it's wrong for Spiritual reasons, doesn't make our opinion any less valid than you."

War-mongering?
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Beauty is by design. In nature, and all things.
.scionlord
05/09/06 5:39 PM GMT
*ponders*
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius
::stuffnstuff
05/09/06 6:28 PM GMT
Freedom of speech. :-) Nah, I just like using flamboyant terms...it adds personality to it.
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Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens]
&philcUK
05/09/06 7:28 PM GMT
Which way would I like this discussion to go? Well hopefully in an informed and respectful debate of the matter in hand rather than a vat of bile and rhetoric that has no real bearing on the original post - but that isn’t likely to happen either is it.
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::stuffnstuff
05/10/06 2:27 AM GMT
Not you too, now...
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Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens]
+Samatar
05/10/06 2:30 AM GMT
Seriously, I don't need a card that identifies which nation I am in.
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
::stuffnstuff
05/10/06 2:34 AM GMT
Revelations put aside, I am rather apathetic about this card. I came across as extremely against it in the essay above, but I was required to take a side when I wrote it. Identity theft could be an issue, but I am sure they will iron out the wrinkles by the time I have an identity worth the theft. :-) I don't see how it could be super helpful, and I am sure that all the negative aspects are exaggerated.
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Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens]
.animaniactoo
05/10/06 2:41 AM GMT
I don't believe they will have ironed out the wrinkles and I think it will actually make it easier. As I said above… there is no code that cannot be cracked… just ones that are harder to crack.
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One man sees things and says "why?", but I dream things that never were and say "why not?"
::DigiCamMan
05/10/06 7:03 AM GMT
Luke..if that's your name. How is it you stand for Phil and his right to speak and yet as one of "us" you say nothing? Seems to me you are running from camp to camp.

You if anyone should know the signs of the times...look at the skies and know if a storm is coming. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating choosing sides, we are all human beings, all from the same source but we do have the right of free speech (at least for awhile) so I choose to exercise that and respect those who voice their opinion. Mark my words (it's here in print) there will be a day when we all see each other because of our association and it will be most interesting.
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If God lived on earth, people would break his windows. Jewish Proverb........ My Gallery
::stuffnstuff
05/10/06 4:12 PM GMT
"Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love." 2nd John 1:3

"So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another." Romans 14:19

"May mercy and peace and love be multiplied to you." Jude 1:2

"And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace." James 3:18

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." Matthew 5:9

"Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another." Matthew 9:50

You need fire for a lot of things, mainly cooking food, but if you know anything about Israel, they don't exactly have an abundance of trees there. What do they use to cook their food? It sounds gross, but animal droppings. They wait until they get old and hard and they are used to fuel fires. A long time ago, they discovered that animal droppings burn four times hotter and longer when you put salt on them. Salt was used both to cook the food and preserve it, making it a very useful (although abundant) substance. We are called to be the "the salt of the earth", which means that we are supposed to live among the rest of the world while keeping our Christian attributes in full light. When we live in the world like this, it is easy to become unsalty, which is un-useful in helping everyone burn with intensity for Him. Often times, people who are constantly living in the world maintain their saltiness by setting themselves apart in an unhealthy manner. By separate, I don't mean holy (for that is what kadosh, or holy means, just separate), but there is no need to ostracize yourself and everyone else. That is why the Bible says to "Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another." The peace is the emphasis.

Sorry for dragging this off topic again, bit I feel that I need to defend myself here. I didn't want to say this on a forum, but you give me no choice. Saying things like "Luke..if that's your name" is completely unnecessary. You are trying to make me angry, and I must admit that it is working, but I am trying to maintain peace, as the Bible directs me. I am continuing to keep the terms "Bible Thumping" and "War Mongering" in thought because they seem so applicable. It is perfectly reasonable for Christians to carry on debates without getting all "righteous" or "washed in the _____ of the lamb!" and still represent Christ (my apologies, my overzealous internet protection service at work). If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.
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Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens]
&philcUK
05/10/06 6:19 PM GMT
Everyone has the right to their own opinions and the freedom to express them. That right expires however when their stated opinions violate the codes of conduct here on the site and in more extreme scenarios when they contravene statutory law covering the broadcast and dissemination of hateful material targeting particular groups purely on the basis of their race, religion, sexuality etc.

Just as people have the right to their opinions, so should they be able to expect not to be judged and targeted for abuse with ill informed and inaccurate slurs purely because of who they are. On reading the various threads doing the rounds at the moment with regards to theology – either those started for that purpose or subsequently hijacked or raised from dead to provoke further argument – many inappropriate messages are showing through, including attacks on Muslims, Catholics, Jews, Homosexuals, atheists and any other Christian sect other than the Fundamentalist/Creationist belief set. I believe that many of these comments could be perceived as being in contradiction to the sites Code of Conduct and I see no reason why these discussions could not have been carried out without resorting to such abuse and intolerance. If you cannot continue a debate in a discussion forum without resorting to such tactics or if you feel that, for whatever reason, your are unable/unwilling to comply with the Code of Conduct – you should, perhaps, consider refraining from posting at all on such sensitive issues.
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::madmaven
05/10/06 7:05 PM GMT
BRAVO PHIL!

I cannot believe that Luke shared his essay and theories on ID and this turned into another religious debate.
I am sad that we can't all have a thread discussing NICE experiences we have had that make us believe in GOD and nice people we have known who do nice things for others.
I don't hate anybody on this thread nor want to fight...but this stuff is poisoning this beautiful site! Why not find kiddie porn-sites or pro-war sites and clean them up? I pretty much know half of the folks on Caedes and think most are wonderful people! I go to NO CHURCH, belong to NO organized religion, but I'd give my last dollar to a stranger on the street who is hungry, and I tithe to God, by feeding animals, and rehab'ing injured animals....and just basically try to be a loving person. I love "GOD" and thank "GOD" when I see my family's faces and the wonders and beauty of nature, and in my heart, I know GOD knows I love him and how truly blessed I feel and I do not look over at my sister in law, who is Catholic and decide she is WRONG, or CAIDEN and say" his religion is WRONG, or Jerry's or JEWISH people, or ANY religion and feel they are WRONG.I do not believe I have to read any bible or go to any church or believe VERBATIM the words some fanatical people say OR be condemned forever otherwise!
It disgusts me when people use "GOD" to SCARE people into believing we all have to believe exactly as they do.
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If you never participate in VOTING BOOTH, please do not whine about the C-Index!
.animaniactoo
05/10/06 7:31 PM GMT
As far as I can see… Luke is standing for himself… he's said quite politely that religous causes/effects were not was he was requesting when he started this thread regardless of his own beliefs.

Who is anyone to tell him what "side" he should be on? He gets to make his own decision and speak where he chooses to.

And frankly, while everyone has freedom of speech, when multiple people have asked for a certain subject to be toned down or dropped, the socially accepted response is usually not to come back and beat people over the head with it some more.

and now… in the words of Rodney King…

"CAN'T WE AWL JUST GET ALONG?"
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One man sees things and says "why?", but I dream things that never were and say "why not?"
::laurengary
05/10/06 8:27 PM GMT
Stands & cheers for Cat, Terri, Phil & Luke.....

Actually I believe I go to Terri's church
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Ask Not For Whom The Bell Tolls .......Let The Machine Get It ........ MY GALLERY
::DigiCamMan
05/11/06 8:18 AM GMT
It's a big church...I been there.
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If God lived on earth, people would break his windows. Jewish Proverb........ My Gallery
::madmaven
05/11/06 10:51 AM GMT
I've seen you both: HUGS! :)
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If you never participate in VOTING BOOTH, please do not whine about the C-Index!

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