What do u all think?
Are u with him? With everything what he is doing?
Or do u think he will fail the next campaign, and that that would be quite rightly?

Let me know u're opinion about him!

He'he'he LOL Well put Sam. Well Put!

prism...i just went through and read many of your posts, and you need to calm down a bit. no matter who is elected, life will go on pretty much the same. american life isnt going to magically improve if bush isnt elected.

Do even realize what’s going on. This country has become so complacent to the point that there is no such thing as patriotism. Going to fight a war over the financial gains of a politician own agenda. There has been so much corruption in the last 30 years that no one cares anymore. We have been brain washed to fight for the old mighty dollar. And I'm not upset. 20 years from now or after Bush is dead they will find documentation that he was involved in 9/11. The worst thing is every one will act surprised. Just as it has been recently released that the Americans new of Hitler’s plans for the Jews 3 year before he declared war on Europe. And did nothing to stop it. All I can say to all of you is that if you don’t like something. Educate yourselves to the facts and vote. Realize that big government is the reason the economy is so bad. And that it is runned by companies like drug companies, tobacco companies, Auto and oil companies and special interest groups.
You are a prime candidate for the complacency in this country. Nothing will change unless you make it so. I am 46 and watched this country go down the tubes where the most important issue at hand is when a president gets a hummer. And they try to impeach him for it. Gees common. So we get upset and wave flags and call it patriotism.
For instance my girlfriend went to work the other day on a casual Friday she whore an American flag shirt. She was told that it was politically incorrect. Because she works for the county in social services and it might insult the illegible immigrants who are getting on welfare and social services. But yet these same illegal aliens have the right to burn the same flag she had on her shirt. Amassing. And who wants to place a bet that Good old Ben will be found right before the election or they will pull his body off ice and say he is dead.

HNSQ yoru comments are like saying, " why should I vote, I can't make a difference?" With that kind of attitude, if we all were as apathetic as you, no one would vote and nothing would change. Remember what the mighty ant can do????

...while that is true kim, all the people running for office are politicians that look out for themselves first. With most being variations on a theme it's not all that important who actually is in office.
--
prism...i grow tired of debating you mainly because I'm tired of being personally attacked(attack the beliefs not the person) Just so you know I grew up in a lower-middle class family of mainly democrats. There are several reasons I did not enlist including medical and family reasons the details of which are also none of your business.
You're also terribly partisan...so much so that you don't even realize you're debating yourself by saying that you should work off intellegence(prevention of 9-11) but also ignore if it can't be completely confirmed(WMDs). Bush ignored the first as did Clinton in the first WTC bombings. Then he worked off the intell with the WMDs; if they would've been credible (which recent finding of serin nerve agents may show) Hussein could've attacked and then a second 9-11 style attack would've ensued. Also impeaching Clinton over lying to the nation about his affairs (after the fact when he absolutely knew the truth) is not exactly the same as impeaching him over what he does in his private time(of which I don't care at all).
The way to fix alot of the problems we are seeing about with oil prices could be fixed with a better system where the oil companies are once again split up. There are too many monopolies and too many people in the companies overseeing too much(drilling, refining, shipping, selling) Kerry is a politician...he won't and can't fix this if he wants to be (re)elected.
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Kerry's success will likely have to do with who he chooses...if he chooses a Dixiecrat it likely will be a tight race (again), but if he chooses Hillary...there is no way. I honestly don't see what's so great about Kerry tho. He's just a politician. I remember him saying religion should be out of politics...once nominated he immediately went to the South where he went to local churches where he said he'd stand up for what God deemed right...he then goes against this by agree-ing with abortion(which is a religious big deal). He also plans on increasing the income tax on the rich(of which he is conveniently exempt(the Heinz fortune is passed down...then the gov't job thing) He also conveniently has no strong position on any controversial issue until the party tells him. Also the strongest reason most people dislike Bush is because of his position on Iraq, however if elected Kerry plans on staying in Iraq too. Bush may not be the greatest choice but the alternatives aren't great either.

I respect Bush...more thank Kerry that is. I would vote for him if I could.

well - now that Michael Moore's film has one the Palm d'Or at Canne and will get a general theatrical release in the states prior to the elections - Bush's position could become almost untenable. I've only seen a few clips so far and to say it's a bit damming not to mention a real eye opener is putting it mildly. How can anyone have faith in a president who, by his own administrations records, has spent 42% of his time in office on holiday either fishing or golfing?

USA now is like Germany in the 40's , and Mr. Bush is a new Hitler who try to conquer the world...and kill people.

...Would that make Saddam Hussein the new Churchill or the new Roosevelt?... I disagree with the way Bush is handling the situation in Iraq, and if the election were tomorrow I would not vote for him, but I think your analogy is quite unfair. The U.S. is not out "to conquer the world." I want our troops out of the Middle East and most everywhere else, and I'm going to make it known. Such opposition to the nation's leader probably wouldn't have been looked on very kindly in Fascist Germany. Bush has, IMHO, made some very poor and/or morally wrong decisions, but he is by no means a insane, racist, tyrannical dictator. Well, that's all I wanted to say, really. =)

i think we are all crediting him with far too much intelligence here - theres no big maniacal scheme here - he just does whatever daddy tells him to - thats all.

Don't forget now that Bush is the son of the old CIA head who trained Old Ben to be able to do what he did to the US.

remember..if you want to find something wrong or bad about someone you will be able to find it...we are all human...none of us are perfect...the real question I ask phil, prism, and aristedes is why? Bush has been in office for awhile now...do you see anything positive in what he's done or you all just a bunch of partisans?

anyway...for those that don't like the way the strategy for Iraq is going how should do it "right"?

Bush's answer: stay in Iraq until it is a free nation...by doing so Iraqis will be able to show their own opinions in a civilized way instead of by showing them by having suicide bombings...by doing so we will create a peaceful nation in the midst of tyrant-ruling nations built on fear. The reason we must do this is because the Middle East is a hotspot where their people are taught to hate America and freedom, and by leaving it alone we are allowing the situation to fester...we must remember we were attacked unprovoked on both 9-11 and the various other bombings that have occured. As an exit strategy, we will hand over Iraq on June 14th (i think) and allow it to govern itself afterward undependent on us. We will then stay there as only a 'police' force where, in time, we will slowly leave the country, and follow what Iraq believes is right as long as it is within reason.
I'll post my opinion later...as it is 2:50 in the morning :(

Rustectrum03:
Sure, you can find wrong in any President but Bush makes it far too easy. He is the first 'leader' in my lifetime that I cannot find any good in. Reagan did a lot of good in his terms and Bush Sr. had his good points. I must ask, in your opinion, what has Bush done that is great? Are you yourself a partisan?

With Iraq, if Bush had sought multinational support the US would probably not be in the quagmire it is now. In contrast to your post, I think that the Middle East is a hotspot because of years (say 60) of British/US policy that plunders nations for the sake of oil. Remember, Iraq is what it is today because of our support of Hussein some 20 years ago.
The Bush administration plans to hand over Iraq to the Iraqis on June 30 but Iraq will not be an independent country. The rebuilding of Iraq stands squarely on the shoulders of the American taxpayer.

As for 9/11, yes, the US was attacked but has everyone forgotten who attacked us?
................

When will we stop living in fairy tail land and wake up and smell the coffee. We will occupy Iraq just as we have occupied Kuwait. We will be there for at least the next 20 years as we have been in Kuwait for the last 14 years. Bush’s address the other day was nothing more then a placebo in place the real answer! His own advisors told him' it wouldn't work to go to Iraq because there was no true ground plan set in place for after the war.
He even stated in his address that one of the major reasons we where there was because of the oil. He even said that Iraqi’s sold over six billion dollars of oil since we have taken over the country. Where is the money from these sales? What good has been done with it? But yet we will have to poor another twenty billion into the country in order to rebuild it. This is a lie because there was less damage in Kuwait and we dropped over 100 billion in to their country to rebuild it.

I'm getting tired of us trying to tell the world how to live there lives when there is over 23 million in our own country out of work 14 million in below poverty levels and another 11 million living at near poverty level and another 7 million on the verge of poverty and until you you’ve been at that level you will never understand what it is like.

We have immigration issues that are eating up our resources to the point of nation wide bankruptcy of the middle class society if this country. We have to stop taking on every poor person that has a problem and tell them no. They need to stay in there own countries and fix them and as long as the united states keeps coming to the rescue of all of these countries there will be no change. Take Mexico for example. Until they change the corruption in that country to make it a better place for its own people, they will continue to come here and drain owner economy.
Where worried about all of the countries on the other side of the ocean. Our biggest threat is to the south of us. And the only real reason we allow it to continue is do to cheap labor and oil.
Heck there are tour busses with Tijuana written on them that carry citizens from Mexico that drive up and drop them off social security offices front door so that they can get directly onto our services. The major reason they come to California is that we pay the highest benefits in the country. There told to come here because we give away free money. How do I know this my girl friend works for social security and has seen it happen.

The people are thought to hate us for a reason in the Arab nations. Every time a western country occupies their soil, they get screwed. They don’t want us there. Bush said what I've been saying; they need to rebuild it, not us. That doesn’t mean I agree with him it just means that our contractors that have been profiting from the construction. You don’t make a nation starve in order to make a profit. Then say it’s in the name of good will and Freedom.
So what it all means is that we are in the wrong war at the wrong time and that we need to fix our problem before we can help fix another’s.
Iraq was not a threat! It was under strict control. We are no longer at war with Hussein we are at war with the very people that we went there to liberate. And as long as they take orders from their religious leaders there will be no liberation or freedom. Democratic societies do not work in all countries.
What makes you think that the American way is the only way rustectrum03 ? That is the same thinking that has caused the problems in Iraq.
Suicide bombing and terrorism is a pour mans nuclear bomb!
What do you want them to do? It is there country. You can’t forget that. It is not USA soil and they are still fighting for there freedom in there own minds. Are you trying to tell me that if the USA was invaded in the name of another cultures beliefs, that we would not do the same here?
Do you really expect them to change the way of life because we say its better? Common!
We have made promises we can’t keep!
Bush is saving face.

Yeah, I'm voting Libertarian. Bush is a deplorable president and it is truely sad that he is seen as a good president only because the past majority were worse. How many different colors of Tyrannical regimes do we need before we realize that liberty has long since been raped, murdered, and left rotting on the back porch of America? Yes, I realize that my vote will do absolutely nothing, but so will yours for anyone you choose. In fact because you choose with the majority your vote will actually mean less than mine, but that's a whole different discussion. Basically it comes down to this, we are told to choose between two evils once again like we've had to every four years. I am sick of choosing which one is less evil, he's still wrong, he'll always be wrong, and no amount of support or gratification will help America. And don't kid yourselves, with liberty dead, and it is dead, America will not be far behind. So, in conclusion, I'm voting libertarian.

If you vote for bush, your just voting for higher gas prices.

WEll the much lesser of two evils would be Bush.

If you vote for bush you get higher every thing. Gas affects every price accross the board from at home all the way down to a tooth pick. Every thing in this country travels on a truck. think about it.

but bush and his texas freinds are doing nothing to stop what is becoming a monopoloy of the oil industry. and thats because hes making a fortune.

Did you just come to this conclusion? That’s why it’s called a bureaucracy. The wealthy powers at be, have the USA for sale by the pound. This country is no longer a democracy. Bush is documented with having his hand in every major and controlling business in the country. From the tobacco, pharmaceutical, industries all the way up to the auto and oil industries. Why do you think that he vetoed the Bill to put restrictions on the pharmaceutical price gouging.

"This country is no longer a democracy"? Hm... You and I both know neither Kerry nor Bush is guaranteed of his job security as Commander in Chief come November. Who will end up being President? That's for us to decide. Sounds to me like democracy in this country is still working the way it always has been in that respect. Anyway, my point is that if a politician doesn't do what you want him/her to do, vote for another politician. :-)

looks like Im going to have to run for president after all, *sigh*

LOL! You have my vote.

I'd run but I'm afraid I'd win, and have to fix the mess left behind.

lol :)

I'm British, Tony Blair sucked this past 4 years, and I think Bush did to.My opinion and a man named Nostradamus who said in 1555 " Come the millenium, month twelve, in the home of the greatest power, the village idiot will become leader".
Good man Nosty ey?
Prism your a dude!

LOL: I guess there is something to the predictions of Nostradamus. How well history repeats itself Alex. And far as Mr. Blair I think he just became the yes man that every one blamed. It would be a little hard to follow in the likes of Thatcher & Churchill regardless of there short comings may have been.

Well, I'm not entirely for Kerry; but I am mostly against Bush. :>

Personally, I'm against this whole idea that not supporting our troops or our government is unpatriotic or in any way cold-hearted (considering what we've been doing, in many cases it is the exact opposite). Patriotism is about using our liberty, not supporting America; I advise those who believe the opposite of that to kindly read the Declaration of Independence and realize that patriotism is speaking your word, not blindly supporting the government.

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." (Declaration of Independence)

If we feel unsafe or unhappy, should we still triumphantly call out, "Yay troops, and yay America?"

I'm not against the supporting of troops or of the current state of our government, but I am against hiding any want of change and the idea that 'protesting the government is unpatriotic.' If you feel the need to protest the government, protesting is perhaps the most patriotic thing to do.

Why waste the Bill of Rights?

Hmm our Tony isn't that bad, he just landed in IT, very badly and possibly head first...

Very well put Ole. That is what I've been saying all along. Patriotism is not blindly supporting a government out of what it has gotten it's self into. It is standing up to the government for the wrong it is committing and there in it's actions. I am for supporting the troops. It’s the means that have brought us to the point that we have to support them under the wrong situation.
We have become a nation that supports the next trend of events and are told what we should like or not like. In my opinion we have become a nation of none patriotism who blindly trust a political system that has convinced us that our vote wont make a difference.

the worst thing about 'our tony' is how desperate he appears to be in his desire to be President of the UK - right down to the ignoring his own party/peoples wishes because he knows best through to apeing (literally) Dubya's buffoon like presence and grandiose press conferences. although a formica clad podium in a stuffy old back room in number 10 doesnt quite cut it with the whitehouse lawn.

Well said Phil!

Personally I'm glad we have Downing Street and Number 10, beats the White House in my books. Why should our political establishments look the same as America's, I prefer the history and character England's has. But I diverge..... again!

neither gets my vote.

the only politicians im putting my support around are Justic Roy Moore, Congressman Tom Tancredo, and California State Senator Tom McClintock. hopefully if Pat Buchanan comes back in to the political realm, ill put my support around him.

lol

(4 bush)

"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?" — Florence, S.C., Jan. 11, 2000.

"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it." —- Reuters, May 5, 2000

"More and more of our imports come from overseas." — Beaverton, Ore., Sep. 25, 2000

"They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program." — Crawford, Texas, Aug. 21, 2002

__________________________________

I don't think the good ol' USA can afford another four years of Bush, either domestically or internationally. However, if he takes McCain as his Veep, then I might change my mind.

from my point of view ( far across the horizon ) he has taken on the job of president during a pretty tough time and his response to 9-11 has had to be taken. i don't necessarily agree with the outcome of his actions. how would you feel if you country had been targeted instead of the u s a . we had the bali bombing and that was bad enough here i would hate to think of the problems if we had the same carnage as new york.
from just an ordinary aussie

I think most are against bush, if I take a look to all the messages.

...one of my opinions about Bush...

this is an art site and that most artists are liberal, so it stands to reason :) ...


groo2k: you asked what Bush did that was good a little while back, so sorry about the delay...

A) Economy: it is coming back...
1) the growth of the economy during the Clinton years was largely due to the enormous growth of the internet and internet businesses this was going to fail at some point. We have all learned something and the economy has came back (this was not necessarily because of Bush that it came back, but the American worker)
2) I can debate it all day and you nor I will change our minds, but trickle-down economics works..once you have a google of money it no longer matters if you get more if you are not doing something productive with it [productive meaning helping others get more jobs, charities, research, etc.]...the benefits of this are not instant though. Bush+
B) War on Terror-
1) Afghanistan: It took a three bombing of the World Trade Center, a hit to the Pentagon, and more than one ship being sunk, for this nation to realize that terrorism is a serious threat. Clinton ignored this threat, as did Bush, but Bush was finally the one to do something about it. That being said I think everyone agrees that this[attacking Afghan. to get bin Ladin] was the right thing to do in order to get a nation that undoubtably harbored terrorists out of the way...not to mention rebirth it as a democracy.
2) Iraq: if Sept 11 taught us nothing, we learned that we cannot ignore intelligence when 'homeland security' is at stake...the intelligence that we[notice: multilaterally] went on was old and inaccurate(Bush has done things to close this gap: Dept of Homeland Security, firing or having the heads of intelligence gathering operations 'step down' or 'retire' [something BTW our allies across the Atlantic have failed to do])..Bush handled this correctly and with leadership(no flip-flopping and thus making a total fool of himself) That being said the Iraqi war may not prove to be a 'necessary' war but Hussain's 'having something to hide' persona with the allowance of inspections by weapons inspectors and the horrible travesties against his own people; the only real question I see is when we were going to go in and were we going in with 'UN support'. Due to the direness of the intelligence against him[believed to be true at the time], and the climate of this country after 9-11 we were more than justified in 'our' war
~basically he's removed threats from the world stage.
FYI: just so you feel better about the war and your Dem. senators, only three senators said that they would change their vote to go to war based on the 'corrected' intelligence.

I can go on and I probably will at some point, but keep in mind when talking about social issues such as education and health care...the people coming up with the plans are lobbyists and the bureacracy..one being a group not necessarily basing what they propose on fact and the other very slow to act...needless to say it takes a little while for anything great to come of the great proposition team. I realize there have been mistakes made by Bush, but no glaring ones...so what are these errors he has made that shows him totally incompetant?

bush is a in my opion us worst preZ...

I think that every president is going to make big mistakes. Bush has, but I still support him. I think both sides have good arguments on the subject, but I feel that to condemn one side is to be somewhat closed minded. Yes, Bush made mistakes, but he is only human. I totally support our troops, both past and present. I believe that the war is justified. I have close friends who's families were victim to 9/11 and the war. But everyone of them supports the cause.

I don't know where I saw this, but someone said something about him being in a double jepordy. I completely agree. If we had stood by, just closed our doors, and huddled in fear, what message would we be sending to other terrorist groups? And also, we're fighting for a better future in an extremely needy country.

Just my thoughts..

How? How is this War just!!!!?!?!? Iraq had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks Bush went there for either oil or to finish something that his dad started. How is this war just?

I can't vouch for all of Bush's actions, in fact I know very little about his "rash" actions, but if I was old enough to vote I would vote for him because he isn't afraid of his beliefs in office. People call the States a Christian nation when extremely few act that way, but he pulls his beliefs into office. I am biased against Kerry, I just haven't heard much posotive about him yet.

My thoughts on Bush and a shameless plug ----> President Behind Bars

;) ;)

no... Bush does NOT put Christian beliefs into office. Going to Iraq is not just. I a lot of people in Iraq would have been better off if Bush had never sent OUR family and our friends there. to kill. and they didnt help the Iraqy people they are killing them. and in the name of Bush. He does not have Christian ways in the things he does.

Liquid, you are certainly welcome to your opinion that the war was unjust and not well prepared or whatever, but you certainly cannot say that it was better in Iraq before we got there. mass graves, raping, pillaging, etc are not good things. For more see my next most recent post.

Fuel to the fire...

I have avoided this topic for a long time. I am not a political science major by any means and could not hold a great debate on politics. But I wish to say my piece anyways.
I dont believe that Bush was a "bad" president as many are saying. There are a few main things held against him that hold merit, and some that do not.
First: I read somewhere in this discussion where quotes from Bush's speeches were used. Not that these quotes arent funny, I laughed when I read a site full of these. But these cant seriously be used against Bush. Think about if everyone recorded everything you ever said. I'm sure all of us here have said some pretty retarted things. But this doesnt take away from our intelligence.
Second: The war against terrorism. I'm sure that every American here, and probably alot of others remember exactly where they were and what they were doing when they heard about the hijacked planes. Or when alot of us (including me) watched the second plane hit the second tower, live on national television. I was at school and I remember everything at school stopping to witness this in disbelief, and wondering if we were part of a hollywood movie. And I know you remember how unsafe our country felt for the comming months when we realized our country was vunerable. Something had to be done to send a message to terrorists that the United States was not just going to accept these kinds of actions. Perhaps Bush did direct this in the wrong way, but you have to admit that our country has been weary about the practices of Sadam and Iraq for many years now. Even if there werent weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, it brings peace to me and others to KNOW this for sure. I believe that Iraq be better off without the rule of their former dictator.

With that being said, I have chosen to vote for Kerry. I believe him when he says he supports the continued reconstruction of Iraq, which would be my reason for potentially sticking with Bush. And I also believe that he will perform much better when it comes to this countries own economic issues. Home first right? Also, even if Bush is completely honest and everyone against him is 100% wrong, the fact is: there is alot of controversy around Bush. I think we need a president that the majority of the population can trust, rather than be unsure about.

Sorry for making this so long. Just my 3 cent. errr, more like 50 cent.

That's a very fair analysis Anthony. I believe you are like most moderates to whom both parties are catering too. However, most conservatives and I believe this economy has turned around...others I know do not. I'm wondering what certain factors would prove that the economy has indeed turned around?

Here's my humble two cents... the economy is clearly better than it was two years ago....however, its a rather lethargic recovery. The "economy is turning around" is an ambiguous statement at best. It all depends upon how you define getting better. For every positive indicator, there is a negative indicator. Bush himself has to use a different indice of job growth each month in order to support his ambiguous claims....thats a sign that the economy is not consistently growing and improving in my humble opinion. Facts that can not be disputed however, are that Bush will preside over a net decrease in jobs with a striking loss of manufacturing jobs. The jobs that have replaced lost ones pay on average 30% less with largely no benefits. Mean household income has decreased over the last four years. The cost of health care and insurance and a college education have increased during this same period. Interestingly, the percentage of taxes that corporations pay is now at an all time record low. The average tax relief for middle class households resulting from Bush's cuts was less than $500. Clinton's 8 years proved if nothing else that you can increase taxes on the richest 2% without damaging economic growth. Most people would love a return to Cltinon's worst economic performance. We now have record budget deficits. I believe record budget deficits are a far greater threat to a continued recovery than rolling back tax cuts for the richest 2%. He had an add that said "pessimism never created a job". I found it very offensive. First, that implies you can look at any negative indice or youre somehow hurting the recovery. Second, record deficits never created a job either! During the last four years the quality of life for most middle class households has decreased with people on the lower end of things suffering the most. Is our economy the worst its ever been? No. But it certainly could be ALOT better. Im an undecided voter as I type this but for the life of me, I dont know how Bush can suggest his economic performance is a reason to vote for him with a straight face. His spin on the economy frankly makes me wonder how trustworthy his claims about success against terrorism are....he seems to have rose colored glasses when it comes to some very important issues.

Judging by Kerry's performance here in North Carolina, and judging by Bush's debatable performance in this county, I believe that Kerry has a better chance of bringing our economy to the point where it belongs than Bush. I am still concerned with Kerry's point of view about the war, but I have no choice but to trust him when he says that he has plans to more efficiently keep our country secure and continue the reconstruction of Iraq.

-univibe, you make very good points. However, in the post-Clinton era economy we were destined to start falling, as the stats show in Clinton's last term...the reason not being anything more than the overwhelming bloom of the internet companies that were to fall and need to be reinvented...remember the internet companies were the first to fall and a lot of them went out of business...as this fall was taking place we ran into 9-11, and the shockwaves that were sent throughout the airline industries, security companies(and still is for that matter). The reason the economy stumbled was not because of Bush or Clinton it was and is 9-11, rising oil prices, and the reliance on said internet companies. And the reason we are out of it is not because of awesome planning by Bush(if so the second of that list would NEED to be taken out) or anyone else but the strength and ingenuity of the American worker in this country. The economy is sluggish right now because of energy prices.
-The deficits were created by the war on terror that is meant to make us safe not because of a failing economy or whatnot.
-By the way, the job report suggesting that Bush is doing failing on employment actually shows an decrease in unemployment, just lower than expected(I thought I'd throw that in)
-Currently in this country, the rich are taxed generously(50% on income alone), while this is not bad it brings up a question, if all the rich in this country decided they were sick of paying high taxes and moved to say...the Carribean(where it is far lower) where would we get the income to pay for programs...also most corporate owners and owners of chains are rich, if we were to have them have more of the money where would it go....it would go partly back into there companies for research and for expansion of their business. Now I'm not saying that rich shouldn't be taxed or that it even should be lowered, but raising taxes even on the richest doesn't mean it doesn't come at a price.

After the 32 months of Bush's plan to create jobs, 401,000 more jobs were made available. To give an example of how week that is, during Clintons first 32 months.

btw I meant Edwards for the first half of my last post, I was refering to the first time the democrats have brough NC a balanced budget.

I hate to break the news to you guys. The reason the drop in jobs happened so quickly is because of the over taxation of the smaller business and the tax break and over sea trade agreements that where allowed by the bush administration for large companies.
Otherwise they taxed the middleman and small Business companies almost out of existence and allowed more and more tax breaks and off shore opportunities for the large corporate companies so that they may cut labor cost. And yet they continuously keep raising their prices. And the government then in turn raises duty tax and sticks it to the consumer do to the tax breaks given to the large conglomerates that they allowed to build off shore industry. Lets face it guys this I a bureaucracy every ones for sale and life and the rights for the common man are lost.
For example you can buy a Nikon D100 in China for about $900.00 here it would cost you from $ 1400.00 to $ 1700.00. This all because of duty and state taxation! That seems fare, pay almost double the cost in duty to taxes.
If you don’t believe this just pick up a phone and call a large company for tech support you will most likely find you are talking to a well-trained individual in India for tech support.
By the end of 2005 1/3 of microsoft will be in India and 1/3 of GM will be in china.
That’s why you see two income families and the break down of the family structure. The cost of living is souring sky high.
And as far as the Clinton administration verses the Bush administration. The Clinton administration created a stronger economy’ do to cutting back on big government and eliminated the deficit by the middle of the second term. This administration has created more big government and tripled the national deficit. The Bush administration used the old tactic of giving the large corporations the tax breaks for the trickle down economics
The theory states if you give the break to the large corporations’ it will in-turn trickle down to the smaller guy and the public. Which by the way was the same method of used by the Regan administration. Which by the way was also an administration that promoted off shore company growth and the farming out of industry to other countries. And had the largest national deficit in history until the now Bush administration.

"After the 32 months of Bush's plan to create jobs, 401,000 more jobs were made available. To give an example of how week that is, during Clintons first 32 months."

During clintons first 32 months over 3 million jobs were created
I didnt even read what I wrote... Thats what I get for staying up late

-okay let's get our facts straight, in the last month there have been an addition of 32,000 jobs...not as much as 3 million granted but that is one month...Since this January we have gained 1.2 million jobs and thats only 8...before these months there was 9-11 and the economic slump so all stats taken and included during that time are mostly spin...also unemployment is now 5.5% back to the rate it was during the '96 Clinton election run.
-To answer you prism, small business has not been taxed more than it has since the Clinton admin, republicans and Bush are for a fiscally responsible government with everyone paying less taxes...granted this gives big business a 'bigger' cut in money(not %)...the reason this economy is not absolutely going crazy is the fact that oil prices are being held by OPEC(crooks) and big oil monopolies(crooks).
-The reason import prices are high is a little thing called tariffs, these are meant to keep foreign products high so that American businesses can compete easier.
-The deficit once again is due to the war
-numbers above are from realclearpolitics.com, which is about the most fair and comprehensive site I've found for such stuff.

- If the deficit is due to the war and Bush (crook) says this is a neverending war on terrorism, where will that put the US in, say, a decade?
- How can you say the Republicans and Bush are fiscally responsible when the 1st surplus in 50 years was turned into one of the largest deficits in US history within a matter of 3 years?
- The reason import prices are LOW is the lack of tariffs. The lack of tariffs on foreign made goods are the reason store shelves are full of non-US product. Also, raw goods such as steel, which used to be an American monopoly, can not compete with foreign produced raw goods because of the combination of two factors -- lack of a true tariff and cheaper labor costs.
...I swear, this is my last post on this subject...until the next one, of course.

Again the jobs that have been created are in foreign countries such as India and China. Think about it ! If companies like Microsoft and GM are sending one third of their manufacturing to China and India. Most of the technical support of these companies along with SBC, AT&T, and a majority of others are being sent as well to India. This is due to the fact that they pay them from $ 1.00 to an hour to $ 10.00 dollars a day. Yeah Bush created jobs ok all out of the country. The Clinton Crew created 16.000 000 000 in its first term. What was Bushes promise 2.4 Million? Show them to me. Heck even our own government uses India for information services..

I feel like I'm playing ring around the rosy...I debate each of you on your terms then when I show you proof you change the topic...come on...:)
-okay, first of all...Bush calling the war on terrorism neverending is a true fact, however it is like using the term 'war on crime'; maniacs will try when they can to make a point by killing people if they can(like the Oklahoma City bombing, Branch-Dividians, 9-11, etc); the war will never be truly over until all nations do there best to stop such acts. Funding terror is not a positive for anyone is the world community
-The deficits once again are due to the US having to respond to terrorism on our soil
-prism, no not just in other countries and not just at McDonalds...the unemployment rate is now 5.5%, unlike the 6.3% of a year ago, though not as quite as good as the about 4.9% at the height of Clinton...fast food and garbagemen did not lose as many jobs as flight employees and internet businesses, and now with the economy improving the jobs are coming back
-finally, in the last 5 to 10 years with improved communication we have been moving toward a smaller and more specialized 'global economy'. A debate truly needs to be opened up in America about whether we want to become a kind of specialist or defend self-sufficient nationalism. We have reached a small problem in that we have become a increasingly intelligent and somewhat arrogant country...children are growing up more intelligent, when they grow up they don't want to be trashman, tortilla packer, machine presser, telephone operator or computer chip maker...they want to be city planner, tortilla company owner, doctor, business owner or computer chip designer. India is willing to pay for a job that most Americans don't want, to answer the phone and give information...I know I don't want that job. This is what the basis is behind specialization countries with the best fields of raw materials get the job...currently the US biggest commodities are farming, natural gas, and designing(as it is in the semiconductor businesses -> the US design the chips themselves then outsources the more dangerous project of creating the actual chips to Asia). I myself tend to favor nationalism, but both sides have pros and cons, here I was just showing the other side. Overall though, we the people need to decide, but as of yet there is no debate on this...

It's not that Americans don't want the jobs! It’s that the economy has gotten so out of hand. along with the high rise in the cost of living that. That no company can afford to pay the salaries that the people of this country need to just feed them self's’ more or less by a home. Plus add on the fact that the politicians have destroyed the education system to the point that the kids of this country are getting a third world education and cannot compete. That is amassing to the point, that we are the richest country in the world and can know longer educate our children. Thus we cannot compete with the other country that put education first such as China and India. Plus add the fact that their cost of living is so much lower then ours. They do not have the big companies that we do that manipulate the economy as in ours. The don’t have a CEO’s that draws a 4000.000 000 to 80 000.000 000 a year alary as there employees starve. So tell me, is it the American people in general that you blame this on? Or is it possible that it could be the large stock holders and CEO”S of the large companies who lay of there worker as they give themselves raises for cutting cost as they pat themselves on the back for doing such a good job..

In the end a country that looks after all its inhabitants, and adopts the idea of social responsibility of the fortunate to the unfortunate, will prevail. Remember (within that statement) you may be one of the fortunate today, but one of the unfortunate tomorrow.... Its the fine art of balancing this philosophy against the forces (both good and bad) of competing members of a society that should be the job of politicians. But, I fear, many world leaders 'outsource' such responsibilities and in doing so, erode that which makes us richest in a real and lingering sense. Pity.

The vast majority of the 2.5 million jobs lost during the first 2 and a half years of Bush's presidency were NOT internet jobs. They were high-paying MANUFACTURING jobs. The roughly 1.4 million jobs that have been "created" in the last 8 months have mainly been service industry jobs which by the way pays 30% less and offers no benefits (want fires with that?). The increase in payroll numbers seen during the last year is just a miniscule nudge above the rate of our population growth. This is NOT a record to brag about and has NOTHING to do with the internet or our war on terrorism. The biggest chunk of our record budget deficit has resulted from the almost 200 billion we have spent on Bush's war in IRAQ. It has NOTHING to do with fighting terrorism on our own soil. Invading Afghanistan was clearly linked to 9/11. What we did in Iraq has no clear or proven link to terrorism. In fact is has severely hampered our efforts to prevent the spread of WMD. We preemptively invaded on supposition. Iran and North Korea now have obvious justification for rapidly pursuing the development of strategic nuclear weapons. Clearly we have adopted a policy of invading before provication and our president has named both Iran and North Korea as our biggest enemies. In fact, based upon the many and often changing reasons for our invasion of Iraq given by Bush, invasion of Iran is more justified than Iraq. Invading Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism on our soil (or terrorism any where for that matter) and it has in fact made us less safe. The poor economy in the US the last three years is more the result of poor leadership by Bush than "a correction in the market coupled with unforseen evil acts on our soil". Im pretty sure I havent changed the subject. :-P

Oh...i forgot to mention....the 200 billion spent in Iraq was in the backdrop of tax cuts that were clearly not paid for and were based upon the supposition of a near record economic growth over the next decade that the congressional budget office declared as fantasy.

Really the most important question of this election is, " if re-elected, what will Bush cut from the budget". Its curious that no one is asking him.

Farenheight 911 a true must see. I am against, against, against. Umm... since we are keeping score, are the voices in my head eligble to vote too?

George Bush liberated more people than Abraham Lincoln. I'd love to see him run for governor of Ohio. Better yet....Cheney/Bush 2008!

Farenheight 911?? HAHA! Thats funny, anyone who believes that garbage you need voices in your head. I am FOR. And that lady talking about her son that died in the war just needs to shut her mouth! He is the one who signed up for the amry, knowing FULL well that he could easily die, and I sure he was happy giving his life for the country. Now his mom says pull out?? What kind of stupidity is that? Imagine you die in battle, then the troops pull out cause you died, would that make you happy??? Come on people, think.

I am NOT a fan of Dubya. I support our troops no matter what, but really cannot wait till 2008. I live in Fresno, CA and the rate of businesses closing down, unemployment and all is terrible!!! Gas prices are $3/gallon...and most folks here earn only $7 an hour...if they are lucky enough to have a job...doing the math...working for one hour gets you just over 2 gallons of gas. For the first time in my life, I have not been able to stay on top of my bills...which are crazy...PG&E, cable...how do they get away with charging so much???I personally know 3 people who have filed bankruptcy and 1 has lost their home...so NO I don't think Bush is doing a good job at all, and I am not very supportive of him. No offense to anyone out of the US, but I don't care who gets liberated...I care about feeding my family. The US can support anyone, as long as the US supports the US FIRST! And lately, that doesn't seem to be the case. I'm sorry if I seem insensitive to other countries, I don't mean to be, but I have seen too many people in my city struggling just to get by from paycheck to paycheck...or here in Fresno...unemployment check to unemployment check. My husband recently lost his job at a company that had prospered in Fresno the whole last decade...they are moving out of Fresno and firing everyone who cannot afford to make that move. I am now, myself, looking at losing my home and maybe filing bankruptcy...to go from a good paying job (by Fresno standards) to nothing in the blink of an eye. And for those that don't know...Fresno is HOT...100+ degree weather for long stretches during the summer...air conditioning is a must. And PG&E knows it.

...ok, and what would have Kerry done? Dude, if our frickin skyscrapers are being destroyed by terrorists, we should just sit here and support ourselves?? We have no choice but to fight, which means bad economy, nothing you can do about it. Personally, i'd rather declare backrupcy then be blown up; but i guess thats personal preference....

Usa has probably the worst " Fear" Campaigne towards their citizens compared to any other nation. The media is of the worst type, The scaring propaganda is also overwhelming people with fear.
People killed by guns is far over most of the nations in the world and people buy guns to be more safe. If it would make people more safe how come the death rate is so high?
Standard politics: Make your citizens scared and out of control and tell them you gonna save them and take care of them.A lot of People beleive that because they read about all the crimes, the President talk about how he wants to defend this wonderful Nation because it so many scary things that can happend if we dont put money in the military and so on. That is just to justify why people are killed in meaningless Wars that basicly has a economical reason most of the time. Bush is just an Actor in this stupid game and hes not even a good one...

I'm sick and tired of conspiracy theories. Tommy...I could argue this with you untill I'm blue in the face. I'll just save a little time, and say, Nonsense! I've nothing more to say on this matter. I refuse to argue about it. Tempting bait though.

I am with Randy.

Pity....Well im not an American so i guess you should know better.
Just a thought: If someone would say -I dont trust Bill Clinton he probably will use some young girl for oral sex in the future. That person would probably be called crazy by most of the people.I find it strange that some people react so heavily on Conspiracy theories when we have seen so much dishonesty and broken promises by politics.
It is just a theory and something to reflect on ,nothing more.
It is to be open for alternatives,to see behind the political polish, and why should we have a 100 percent trust to politics, have they always keeped their promises to us?

Just me...but I'd take Clinton again any day. So what the guy got some blow jobs...hey, if he can, then I don't see the problem. In my view, Dubya has done much worse...don't bother debating me...my views wont change, and you will only get frustrated...the great thing about the US is that we at least still have the freedom of speech...and I am using that to say I think Dubya stinks as a president. My view, and my right to say it. I'm done with this topic...take care.

Hahahahahaha!! That my friends is words of Visdom!!

Along with the freedom of speech is the freedom to disregard.

Absolutely! And to not judge people for having an opinion makes this world as a better place to live in....

Absolutely! And to not judge people for having an opinion makes this world as a better place to live in....


Well said!!!!

As I recall at the time of Clinton's two terms, 75% of polled Americans said they would rather amend the constitution and let him have a third term than have to pick one out of Bush or Gore. I guess even at that early stage they knew they'd rather suffer the odd sly BJ than screwing the whole world over :-)

Can you say "Tony Blair"?

not without retching furiously....

What would you have done after 9/11....or after 7/7? (If it were up to you) Would you have just ignored it, and hoped it went away?

KABOOM!! The terrorists started this my friend. Bush, and Blair have the obligation to defend our people. You don't want to fight you say? BOOM! Have another....ready to fight yet? No? BOOM! Ready yet?

no - I'd have played dirty right back at them - if it's terror they want then it should be terror they get. geneva convetion - pah, I thought thats what we were going to get with Shock & Awe instead of the fireworks display it turned out to be. The coalition forces have lost far rmore people trying to 'make nice' since the end of hostilities playing the diplomacy card and prolonging the death and destruction far longer than needs be. The pen is mightier than the sword? last time I checked you couldnt cut someones head off with a pen...

So ....just how is it that Bush is screwing over the whole world?

I think your looking too intensely at what I said - that whole post was meant as an exaggerated humourous comment - i thought that was quite obvious - but if not my apologies for causing any offense :-)

My bad then bro...I guess I just misunderstood what you meant.

I find its always best to throw in a bit of dry humour into potential hot threads like this - obviously went a bit too dry on this one:-)

You ask "What would you have done after 9/11....or after 7/7?" You are right my friend they do have the obligation to defend our people,so I guess I will come right back at you with a question.Since we agree they have the obligation to defend our people,why aren't they doing it? I can tell you right now you will never be able to win "The War on Terror" by killing the terrorist. the reason I say this is we are fighting an idea.So no matter how many combatants you kill the idea survives,not only that most of the time it spreads.So if you want to stop the spread of terrorism you need to change the way people think,not kill them.

Change the way they think? That will take decades...perhaps even centuries. In the mean time we have no choice but to fight the MFers. They leave us without a choice. How DO you change the way a suicidal maniac thinks Bob? Please....do tell.

You are probably not going to change the way "a suicidal maniac" thinks.My point is why create more of them.I think the vast majority of people are in the middle,meaning all they want to do is live their lives.These are the people that are getting swayed to the dark side so to speak,these are the people that we need to spend time effort and energy get our message out to.You say "In the mean time we have no choice but to fight the MFers" that is exactly what I'm saying, fight them use the same weapons they are using against us.Where do you think one of these so called "suicidal maniac" come from? Do you think these guys just wake up one day and decide to jump in a plane and fly it into a building?No they don't they are taught for decades that the west is evil.There are thousands of these schools teaching these people this same philosophy.I got news for you if we don't act now in decades it will be to late because there wont be just a couple hundred people will to fly planes into building there could be literally hundreds of thousands willing to it,then what?Short term thinking is the main reason the US is in the shape its in now to begin with.

So then....first you say we don't kill them....now you are saying we should?

You say try and stop the problem after the fact I say try and stop the problem at the source.If you have a leaky roof what would be the best way to deal with it?First whenever it rains place buckets under the drips to catch the water,or get on the roof and fix the leak.Sure you would have to use the buckets to temporarily stop the water from destroying your floor,but if you don't stop the leaks they eventually just get bigger and bigger until you could no longer catch the water using the buckets.So now not only is you floor ruined eventually your whole house would be destroyed from water damage.Same principle applies with the "The War on Terror".

That's all well, and good Bob....I'll set my magic clock to pre 9/11. It would be great to fix a flat tire before it goes flat. =0)

Again....Using that logic. Comparing the "War on Terror" to fixing a leaky roof is a bit over the top. For instance.....When you go up on your roof to fix the leak....do you (A). Physically repair the leak. or (B) Ask the roof to stop leaking?

I have told my point of view,so what do you think is the best way to deal with these problems?

Physically stop the leak.

So then we agree,but how would you do this?

Tear the whole freaking roof off, and replace it if that's what it takes, but that's not an easy task. Neither is the "War on Terror". One things for sure. There's no negotiating with the MFers. The "leak" will be stopped, no ands, ifs, or buts, about it. You said we should fight this war by getting to the source of the problem....I say that's exactly what President Bush, and Prime Minister Blair are doing. They went upon the roof, and are physically "stopping the leak". Now hiring roofers at (1-800-THE-ARMY) =0)

I agree with Tbob. I actually think its a good point to compare it like that.
But we have to handle the danger always, im not really sure how,but in a long perspective it is to inspire this people to take a different viewpoint so the new recruiting will stop.
Its not easy but the only way in the long run ,otherwise we will have a security society that will be far over our heads and thats nothing to look forward for..