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Discussion Board -> Non-art Website Issues -> Second chances

Second chances

::onespock
06/08/06 7:01 PM GMT
I spent part of this morning trying to figure out what in my gallery has been "archived" and what is still waiting its turn...I found two images of mine that I expected to make it to the main gallery...they didn't. I am not searching for answers as to why not...just merely a second chance...perhaps once a month we could re-submit one image we think should have made it...maybe a trio of mods could decide instead of one...you know, ponder on it a bit...walk around it...kick the tires. If two of the three like it...its in...easy cheesy. If not...thats good also...it tells me in absolutes that I need to strive to do better and it wasn't just overlooked or lost in the shuffle.
Of course some parameters would have to be set...such as only re-submitting one image a month, anymore would be a deluge of images...only re-submitting an image once...maybe a temporary category for said images while they are being reconsidered...also the image shouldn't lose all its original comments. I know the rework gallery sorta serves the same purpose...first you have to make changes to an image you may feel doesn't need changed and more important you lose all the tasty tidbits such as the original comments, views and downloads.
Just a thought...anyone else have ideas to add??

Moe
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-"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one".-Spock

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.animaniactoo
06/08/06 9:05 PM GMT
I like the resubmitting an image to be checked by a trio of mods idea. I also agree with limiting the number of times it can occur and how often. Maybe it could be done via a PM or a link? That way you wouldn't lose the original image, since it still stays on the site in your personal gallery anyway.
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One man sees things and says "why?", but I dream things that never were and say "why not?"
&KEIFER
06/08/06 9:25 PM GMT
do you mean a complete re-submit for voting, etc .. or just a re-moderation of the final cut .. ?? .. I'm assuming you mean the latter .. as the site grows, content-wise, the work load grows with it ... some images are 'cut' due to their being over-represented in the galleries already and it has less to do with your actual work

why don't you place your neck on the chopping block and offer up a link to the images in question ... and see what comments you might recieve from the community in this context .. keeping in mind that the +mods may not grant a reprieve in the end

ask that comments regarding the fate of the image be left here .. and comments regarding the image itself be left at the image
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::laurengary
06/09/06 12:02 AM GMT
I like your idea Moe, & I agree with limiting how many times it can be resubmitted. I also like Keith's trial idea of where to put each comment.
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Ask Not For Whom The Bell Tolls .......Let The Machine Get It ........ MY GALLERY
::onespock
06/09/06 2:27 AM GMT
Yes Keith I do mean the latter...
here is the link to one of the images I was speaking of...of course I don't want the mods to give my image a second chance without every artist getting the same opportunity and I also agree with where the comments should be placed.

Moe
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-"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one".-Spock
=Piner
06/09/06 3:05 AM GMT
FYI- All reposts of images are automatically archived.... obviously if your image didn't make the cut the first time, it won't make it the second time around, in fact it will get less views/votes/comments then it did the first time around. Like Keifer pointed out, some images are archived 'due to their being over-represented'. Originality plays a big part in an image making the 'cut'.
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The work of art may have a moral effect, but to demand moral purpose from an artist is to make him ruin his work. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe - 1832)
&KEIFER
06/09/06 3:27 AM GMT
The designation still shows New Images -->Abstract-->Fractal .. there has been some talk of creating an Archive--> designation, though I don't know where that stands ... How do you know a decision has been made as to its fate?

My guess would be .. it's an apophysis fractal in a sea of apophysis fractals .. (ie = over-represented) .. without any real standout qualities and cohesiveness .. perhaps if you massaged the data in the editor .. or .. collaborated with another apophysis artist to see where another pair of eyes could take it .. (you can post a .flame file as text in a PM) .. just specify who posts the image to who's gallery

the c-index is higher than most of my images, but we all know that is no saving grace when facing an over-represented category ... going forward, Apophysis artists will have to submit stellar works in order to stand a chance of promotion to the perm galleries .. since alot of these artists are posting two a day

in short .. had I been the one to moderate the image .. I would not have promoted it to the perms based on the above reasons
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::onespock
06/09/06 3:52 AM GMT
so nix on the idea...thanks guys.
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-"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one".-Spock
.noahnott
06/09/06 5:51 AM GMT
Logical! (just had to say that word even though it has nothing to do with this convo)
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Caedes is so much fun! It has little blue buttons, and they even turn green! ...other features include posting images, but who cares about that part. Blue buttons!
&KEIFER
06/09/06 7:24 AM GMT
ahh .. teenagers
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::WENPEDER
06/09/06 3:18 PM GMT
For what it's worth, I think it's a wonderful idea, Moe. I can't help wonder about the potential bias of moderators. Don't get me wrong...I much appreciate the time and effort moderators put into this site, but that doesn't mean that they won't archive images that might be considered worthy of main gallery placement by someone else. I'd like to know what the review process of images involves. How many moderators review images before they are archived? What criteria do they consider in deciding what images to take a careful look at and which images to ignore? Sam has already stated that he considers c-index scores in helping him decide which images to consider. Is this a standard practice? Wen
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&philcUK
06/09/06 4:12 PM GMT
I had always been of the understanding that creativity and more importantly originality were far more important deciding factors in the inclusion of works to the permanent galleries with the c-index score there as a rough guide only. I don’t think reposting images is good at all as presumably it was excluded originally for being too similar to many other works in the galleries and that situation will no doubt have not changed at the time of the reposting. I don’t think it is of any real benefit to the artist either as it would discourage progress and development of their work as we all strive to improve both the creativity and quality of our work through a natural course of development. From personal experience, I know I get very jaded about images when I keep seeing them reposted more often than not with only minor changes that haven’t fundamentally altered or improved the overall effect so this would only be heightened by seeing exactly the same images reappearing.
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::WENPEDER
06/09/06 5:19 PM GMT
I understand Moe's suggestion as one of resubmitting images to moderators for a more thorough review, as opposed to simply reposting as a new image. In addition, he said that such resubmissions would be subject to certain limits (i.e. any given image could only be resubmitted once and members could only resubmit one image per month....etc.) There's little doubt in my mind that some high quality images are being "missed"/sidelined by moderators, given the huge number of images they have to review. Why not allow members to request review of images they believe merit a second look? Wen
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&philcUK
06/09/06 5:27 PM GMT
high quality images do get sidelined for sure but that quality may just be from a technical aspect and that isnt the same as quality in originality or creative interpretation.
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::vicvog
06/10/06 5:56 AM GMT
I think Moe has an excellent idea! I have numerous TieraZons in my gallery. Obviously some are better than others, but NOT ONE OF THEM has made it to the permanet gallery. I really feel that at least a few of them warrent a second look. For sake of an example, go to the other side of the tracks. This is one I would really like a second opinion on. IMO, I think a lot of really great fractals have been overlooked.

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&KEIFER
06/10/06 6:18 AM GMT
I like it .. I don't know why you posted it at asdf.com .. ;o)
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::vicvog
06/10/06 6:23 AM GMT
LOL!! In case you didn't notice, I don't know what I'm doing Keith!! Tell me what the correct html would be - if you really want to help!! Vicky
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&KEIFER
06/10/06 6:32 AM GMT
in the example in the FAQ's .. the example has "asdf.com" in the label portion of the example .. just change that to what you want displayed

<@ href="ADDRESS">LABEL</@>

** replace the @ with a lowercase a
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::vicvog
06/10/06 6:40 AM GMT
Bingo!! Thanks Keith!! I have corrected my error! Appreciate it! Vicky
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&philcUK
06/10/06 11:48 AM GMT
So, trying to put that all in context, you are saying that many worthy images are being overlooked due to the sheer volume of images that moderators have to deal with on a day to day basis in their regular workload which all seams reasonable enough as a supposition. As a solution, however, you are suggesting increasing that workload potentially by as much as 30% - that figure is based on a low estimate of regular users and daily image submissions. Aside from my initial reservations about the whole concept – in pure black and white figures the idea has very little practical logic going for it.
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.LynEve
06/10/06 1:41 PM GMT
How does one tell if an image has been archived? I have tried to fathom it but can't see how to tell.
For all I know mine may all have been archived lol
I confess to not understanding how things work. I have an image with a c-index of only 54 in the permanent gallery but 2 with 80 and one with 91 are 'new images'. I really dont mind where they are, but am interested. Is it expected that we delete our own images with very low ratings? Or after a certain length of time?
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Keep your face to the sunshine and you can not see the shadows. It's what sunflowers do - Helen Keller
.scionlord
06/10/06 2:10 PM GMT
It was mentioned a while back that there was a possibility that there would be an Archived folder, but that's all we know at the moment.
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius
&KEIFER
06/10/06 2:13 PM GMT
recently .. more storage space was added to the site .. and the previous need to constantly clear off space has been diminished for a bit .. so you are not encouraged to delete your own images at this time .. this is also why the "archive" designation was developed .. (ie = no pressing need to kill the images)
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::WENPEDER
06/10/06 2:16 PM GMT
Rather than reject the idea because the workload of moderators would be increased, how about considering the reality as YOU described it, Phil - - - "that many worthy images are being overlooked due to the sheer volume of images that moderators have to deal with on a day to day basis in their regular workload.." If that's true, then what kind of "corrective" tools might be built into the system to allow some of those "worthy images" consideration?

Is it possible to assign more moderators to the job? I don't know how the number of moderators is determined, but it sounds like more may be needed....? Is that such an impractical proposition? Wen
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&philcUK
06/10/06 2:25 PM GMT
As has already been mentioned elsewhere moves are in progress to improve the speed and processing of images through the moderation system. The quote you mentioned was a rationalisation of your own previous posts and doesnt represent my personal feelings on the matter which is why my post started 'So, trying to put that all in context, you are saying that.....'
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::WENPEDER
06/10/06 2:45 PM GMT
Well, Phil, I respect your opinion, but beg to differ with your assertion that " – in pure black and white figures the idea has very little practical logic going for it. .." and I think that was why Moe brought up the idea of "second chances" in the first place. Artists here often spend considerable time and effort on the images they upload here and find it frustrating when certain images seem to get overlooked. Clearly, you can't open the door for relentless reposting of images for reconsideration, but providing some avenue for recourse to artists seems like an idea worth serious consideration. Wen
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&philcUK
06/10/06 2:53 PM GMT
I understand your frustration and I feel it too but thats the situaton at the moment. Work is constantly ongoing in the background to improve the site and the problems that have been represented here are well known and are part of the discussions but as any good senate member would tell you, Rome wasnt built in a day and any changes made have to be carefully tested and considered over time before widespread implementation to try and ensure the maximum benefit to artists in the community. The archive function is part of that and at least prevents the complete loss of a members images as it was prior to this change.
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.animaniactoo
06/10/06 6:27 PM GMT
Well… I repeat my 2 cents… in some future upgrade, I like the 2nd chance option, especially if it's limited so that it can't be abused.
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One man sees things and says "why?", but I dream things that never were and say "why not?"
::WENPEDER
06/10/06 8:05 PM GMT
Glad to hear that ongoing discussions are going on, Phil. Sometimes moderators seem quick to get defensive when issues are brought up and suggestions for change are made. I don't think anyone said that Rome had to be built in a day. These discussion boards are members' way of sharing ideas about what doesn't seem to be working (as well as what does) and what might be done about it. When someone makes a suggestion like Moe's, it's just nice to know that those who have the power to make changes here are aware of certain issues and will consider members' suggestions. Wen
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&KEIFER
06/10/06 10:37 PM GMT
Well .. tell you what .. why doesn't everybody practice being a moderator and practice making the hard decisions .. and practice cutting an image or passing it to the perms using Moe's (or Vicky's) linked image .. provide your justification

because the fact of the matter is .. decisions need to be made daily,weekly, or monthly and we can't second guess every decision or we make no progress towards the next decision .. and these aforementioned decisions affect the feelings of human beings ...

the weighting: .. The site's desire to maintain a unique, high-quality gallery outweigh the artists apron strings to their images .. (just as it has always been) .. but, that's not to say that images worthy of staying have not been cut

begin ...
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+Samatar
06/11/06 12:46 AM GMT
Personally I still think that, if anything, I am too liberal with what I allow into the perms. I don't want caedes to end up like deviant art with over 22 million images to wade through. The perms NEED to be reserved for the very best of the best.
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion- rescope.com.au
.animaniactoo
06/11/06 2:35 AM GMT
I 100% agree w/that Sam, and I expect that very few of the images sent in for a 2nd chance would actually make it through, just would like there to be an avenue open for it.
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One man sees things and says "why?", but I dream things that never were and say "why not?"
&KEIFER
06/11/06 2:47 AM GMT
If I remember correctly .. the +mods that cut the images send them to a 'closed' gallery .. and they are perused by another pair of eyes .. perhaps the golden-child himself .. (he said he granted a reprieve to a few) ...

whether this takes place every time .. I don't know
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+Samatar
06/11/06 4:21 AM GMT
No, they are moved immidiately. There would be far too many to be reviewed by one individual.
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion- rescope.com.au

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