I think the pendulum has swung too far away from the voluntary voting system. I strongly recommend letting the user limit their voting to a random set within a specific genre or one or more user-defined genres.

I have no interest in nature photography and so if I encounter a photo of, say, horses frolicing, I'm inclined to vote highly negatively regardless of whatever photographic merit it may have, simply for being a waste of my time. Yes, from the aggregate of my votes and those like-minded you can infer we don't want to see photos of horses, but there are far less time-intensive ways to gather that.

In terms of functionality, if I have to see the full-sized image before I can give feedback then lop off the side navigation and just show me the full-sized images with the voting buttons on the bottom and top. Alternatively, consider showing somewhat larger thumbnails, and weighting these partial views differently. Radio buttons are also a bit of a nuisance.

Here we go again...

Yeah, the entire graveyard is full of voting threads, and some people have also asked that they be allowed to vote on a specific genre of images only. I don't really mind the full-size image window, I like to examine the image for a couple seconds before casting my vote.

> Here we go again...

I haven't been here in a while, so I wouldn't know that this is a dead horse. If the complaint is that common, then there just might be something to it.

> I like to examine the image for a couple seconds before casting my vote.

That's fine. My complaint is about the few seconds it takes to get there in the first place.

Well, I'm staying out of this one. Have fun.

Here ya go… the extensive discussion covered from front to back and back again.

I said I might have unknowingly beat a dead horse, I didn't say I wanted to go stand over and smell one in the graveyard. :) More drama than commentary there, really.

Anyway, I've spent some satisfying hours here over the last few years. I think the total randomness is a disincentive and suspect it will do more harm than good. That's my two cents. The Webmasters That Be can either take it for consideration or not.

Judging by your Karma you've been a huge asset to this site .. I think, perhaps, you've gotten more than you've given .. I will miss you

Oh, I still plan on enjoying the imagery. I'd be a fool not to. :)

It seems you dont have a gallery so you don't have to vote on anything, you can just enjoy the other artists works like you normally do, so I can't see why you are complaining about the voting when you dont have to... it's a simple solution.. dont vote..

Perhaps he WANTS to register his vote on specific types of images, Jacqueline, and dislikes the fact that he doesn't get the opportunity to do so in the voting booth but, rather, is compelled to vote on a lot images he would rather ignore. He would hardly be alone. He didn't say that he didn't want to vote but, rather, clearly preferred the "voluntary" voting system and decided to share his viewpoint. Why not allow him to voice his opinion? Wen

Here we go again is right!!! All this kind of talk does is rile people up, besides I really don't see what it would matter to someone who never really contributes anything but negativity to this site. Btw, I'm clearly speaking of CleffedUp here now. Can we please just dump this in the graveyard now?

He may not comment much, but apparently he votes! Doesn't that count for something?

Not when he apparently votes 0's on anything he doesn't like, which sounds like quite a bit.

I'm not stopping him from voicing his opinion... everyone can say what they want.. thats what the discussion board is for... AND... I didnt say he couldnt i was just saying if he was so unhappy about it then he doesnt have do it.. yes every vote is appreciated by everyone whether they have to or not, that was not what i was getting at.. its just that its the same old argument that is going to happen again, which isnt going to change... he can vote till his little heart is contented thats fine, dont have a problem with that whatsoever..
Have you thought about how much work and time it would involve to segregate images into sections, then have ALL the members both Artists and non-artistis sorted into who likes what... that would be a massive job, and I'm sure the mods have a life, family and work outside of Caedes to contend with too... Just my opinion (which im begining to wonder why i bother to share it!)

I can't help but wonder about CleffedUp, I mean, if you see this page and by my calculations, CleffedUp didn't vote on more than 85 images in the last seven days.

I think we can drop it now.

I will be the diplomat and say .. yes, all votes are appreciated .. but, when the majority of those votes were cast on photos that didn't appeal to the petulant child that resides inside of him and he, like a small child forced to eat his greenbeans, threw his food at the wall (by casting a zero vote) .. then it stands to reason that it was a waste of his parents wishes that he be well fed

Well said Dad.. LOL..

Yeah, well, father knows best...=P Just ask Beanie Daddy...LOL

Keith, your diplomacy is like a breath of fresh air. Thanks. We can characterize viewers here in a variety of ways but, one thing seems quite obvious - - compelling people to vote on images that they would prefer not to vote on, and giving them little opportunity to vote on images that they want to vote on, does not necessarily lead to "unbiased" voting (the ideal.) Indeed, there are a number of people who seem to take their frustration out on images and that often drags the numbers on those images down unfairly and significantly. Wen

ok here's another way of looking at it hypothetically.... divide the members into the 2 groups photographers and computer generated... previously it has been said that the ratio of photographers to cg is more photographers (right?) you want people to vote on what they want for eg. photographers photos only, cg work only.. result would be more complaining this time because the photographers have higher indexes and more votes and more downloads because there are more photographers voting and viewing the photographs than the amount of cg members... so therefore hypothetically we are back to square one complaining once again about the unfairness of the voting... 8~s

I say we develop a psych test that determines a person's Adult Quotient when creating an account .. if they score below a certain number, proving that they can not play well with others, then they have to sit at the kiddies table and are only allowed to view and vote on the playdough sculptures they and their fellow Kiddesians create

one of us grown-ups can be tasked with looking over the table occasionally to clean up messes and mediate in squabbling .. a different person every day

raise your hand if this works for you

LOL ... There are grown ups on Caedes?????? who???

sounds like a plan to me.. LOL...

Whether the voting system works or not, is fair or not, or is liked or not. I LOVE it.
It makes me look at images I would otherwise pass by.
It makes me consider how much work and skill and talent has gone into making them.
It makes me look at images with the same critical eye others may look at mine with, and hopefully therefore may improve my work.
Some I do not understand, some I do not even like, some I would prefer not to vote on,but all are worthy of a considered opinion.
Personal preference in genre inevitably enters into to how one votes.
I for one never think the time I spend voting is a waste of time simply because I enjoy it. If indeed there are as Wen suggests those who deliberately vote a low number on an image out of frustration then that is a shame. For me, a few nice comments often with helpful suggestions or criticisms on any of my pictures is worth just as much to me than any number of votes.
It is when voting randomly that I often see an image I want to find our more about and so go to the authors page, and perhaps leave a comment. How would I find them otherwise? Most of us don't have time to view every new image, I certainly dont, so this way I get to see a good random selection.
LOL Sorry - did not mean to go on that much . . . . :)

No .. go on some more .. I'll get you a glass of water

Water?
LOL
something stronger please
.
.
.
Like a cup of tea :)

Think you need a cup of tea and a shovel for the snow??? lol... Very well said LynEve... I feel exactly the same way.. i've come across images that I have missed, and I think every image deserves a fair vote whether or not its photography or cg, guess i'm lucky that i delve into a lot of different types of art... and if it was something that wasnt my genre I would still look at it and ask myself if I liked the colour, the scene or design, which I think everyone is capable of doing, I know some people dont like cg images, but i'm sure that they can see if they like the colour, or they like the design?? same as cg people looking at photos.. i'm sure you can tell if the pic is clear and the colour looks good.. or maybe just maybe i dont know what i'm talking about and people just cant see the forest for the trees, are coloured blind or just dont like anything... Sorry, but I just cant see why people have to be so narrow minded.. as i said above in the hypothetical divide the site and there will be even more arguments about how photography is getting more "air time" than cg's because of the ratio of photographers to cg artists.. now i will shut up... i've had my say.. and my opinion...
oh.. only one more thing to say.. GO THE SOCCERROOS!! .. =PP

I never thought I would say it but OK - Go The Soccerroos:)
Must have been that cup of tea
Or the effects of the snow
No power this morning for 4 hours
Brrrr
When voting, if I can not decide about an image, even if it is not 'my cup of tea' I put it on my desktop for a while and sometimes I can see the merits in the most unlikely images- after all thats what its all about - desktop wallpaper.
When I say unlikely I mean unlikely that I would like it if you know what I mean.

For those who LIKE completely random voting, where it is decided FOR them which images they vote on and which images they don't, nothing would hae to change. Viewers could CHOOSE to continue to vote on "random" images by the pick of the draw. The key word here is CHOICE, it seems to me. For those who would prefer voting on images from one genre and, who admittedly down-vote on other images, why punish the artists by compelling such people to vote on the images they admit they dislike IN GENERAL?

As for photography "getting more air time," it does NOW because photographers tend to rate photography higher than computer generated art. That results in photographs seeing more air time on TNI/Caedes home page and, for moderators who rely, on the c-index to select images for main gallery placement, at least in part, photographs have an advantage. Giving folks a CHOICE might weed out those who register their frustration with "random" voting by down-voting on images they would prefer not to rate.

It's one thing to "complain," Jacqueline. It's another to highlight an ongoing glitch in a complex system and make suggestions for improvement. Just because not everyone agrees, doesn't have to mean that one group of people is right and one is wrong. Can we agree on that much? I hope so because I would love a cup of tea. <G> Wen

Perhaps this wouldn't be so much of a problem if people used the voting booth appropriately. That appears to be the main area of complaint, regardless of personal preference.

If people approached the voting booth to vote on 'images' then it wouldn't be a problem. However, it seems that it is used to vote on 'stuff I like' and 'everything else' with 'everything else' being deliberately low voted regardless of image quality.

Perhaps if voting was more a privilege than a right, then perhaps the problems may be alleviated. Perhaps if voting was limited to those who have shown impartiality in their voting on all types of images...

In fact isn't that what it all boils down to? It seems to be photos v CGI, with endemic bias.

In my personal opinion, the voting booth is an important part of this site, but if it, like the voting systems previously are abused, perhaps its availability should be restricted. It might not be the best way of critiquing images, but it would allow for a more accurate judgement to be made.

I offer it as a suggestion to all moderators to consider.

I wasnt saying that one is right and one is wrong.. i was just pointing out that it wont work dividing up the members, as for the TNI home page, there has been quite a few cg images on there.. actually i have noticed on the new images that there are quite a lot of cg images, i think its pretty even on there at the moment, they might not all be on the one page but they are there.. another thing i was trying to get across was for people to say that they wont vote or vote low because its "not their cup of tea" is a weak excuse, like i said before, everyone has an opinion.. everyone can see if the colours appeal to them.. everyone can see if the design or the scene appeals to them, and everyone can see (if a photo) that it is clear or blurry... its not that hard... and as i said before also.. it will be a massive job to segregate all the photos into sections and all the members into sections then place them so they can vote on their prefered genre.. the mods have lives outside of caedes, and i think it would take a hell of a long time to do all that...

(*hands out glasses of water to everybody*) .. (*turns away .. sneaks a quick swig off a mystery flask .. turns back*)

what? .. you didn't want water? .. I missed the memo

HEY!!... my water tastes funny... what you do to it??? no dont answer that.. 8~0

Just read Andrews comment (whos icon looks like its in shock... lol.. Your right.. it isnt being used properly.. it is definately being voted by some as you say "What I like" it is also being voted on by "Thats-the-style-I-use so I'll vote on that" which to me sounds very biased, could even be classed as abuse of the system if you really want to dig around in it, could even be on the same level as the old system when certain ones voted on their "friends"... but thats another story... anyway... thats life it aint gonna change.. i like the system cos i get to see images i missed and there have been some fantastic ones that snuck by me...

Thanks Keith - keeping your flask to yourself is a bit furtive though.
This glass of water gets a 7 from me. Good depth, nice colour, presented with panache. Reminds me of the water my granny used to pour, with a modern twist. Very well done :) Is it a photo or did you generate it? No matter, its a 7 regardless and it looks great on my desktop.

(Does this glass of water adhere to the NTV Code I ask myself though)

ROFLMAO....

Lyn… I LIKE you 8•P

I vote when I have nothing better to do. If something comes up and it's not what I'm interested in, I still vote fairly based on quality, not my likes or dislikes. However, I have to agree that I'd rather see a full-sized image right away then have to click several times to get to it, and even now, the images don't always come up full sized.

The ones I just voted on today came up in a window that I couldn't click on to make it full-sized because that option was grayed out (which is really annoying because then I had to move it around with the mouse just to view it), and also I've noticed a lot of images coming up thumbnail-sized in the full-size window, along with a page that is blank that also loads at the same time (some sort of glitch, I assume). So there are a few bugs that need to be worked out. But overall, I don't think it's terrible.

I have found that opening a voting booth image in a new window (by right-clicking and selecting that option), maximizing the window, and not closing it saves some time. The only problem is getting out of the habit of closing the new window every time. Heh.

interesting, I've never had the types of problems you describe. Once or twice I got an image error, but clicking on the image for the preview a 2nd time resolved it.

Maybe it's just Internet Explorer.

I dont have any trouble with it.. i use firefox

I haven't had that kind of problem...I mainly use SecureIE, though occasionally have used Firefox and Opera.

I have no problems with either Maxthon or Firefox. Maxthon is faster on my machine. Full size image opens in a new 'floating' window when thumbnail clicked. I then diminish it and the next clicked thumbnail opens in that same window. Max it and there it is. Then after voting I have the option of using the back arrow to have another look through all the full size images.

wouldnt picking what random images you see become not so random? it IS called Random Voting for a reason :]

Dj

Exactly!

One of the reasons that the random voting booth was implemented was to ensure that all images get roughly an equal number of votes.
Before the voting booth was in place, some images by well known members would have more then 50 votes in less then a month and other images by newcomers & low profile members would still not have half-a-dozen votes after a month in the 'New Images' gallery.

I think the way it is, is good.. like you say it gives the newcomers a chance to be seen, and there have been some fantastic work by new members...

Random = governed by or depending on chance
If there were a choice it would be non-random and therefore defeat its purpose.

the way I see it, it's like LIFE ..

Some days you eat the bear, some days the bear eats you

Some days you're the windshield, some days you're the bug

Some days your the dog, some days you're the hydrant

and don't sweat the small stuff . . . . .
go with the flow
go wih the pendulum even

just don't get eaten by a bear

And if you do, make sure you get some good photos of the bear first.

"And if you do, make sure you get some good photos of the bear first."

And have someone post them to Caedes! ;)

Preferably afer the shots were maybe put through Neat Image & had a cool filter or two thrown in for effect in PS

:o)

I think the bear would 'spit' him out!

'I have no interest in nature photography and so if I encounter a photo of, say, horses frolicing, I'm inclined to vote highly negatively regardless of whatever photographic merit it may have, simply for being a waste of my time."

Well, thanks for clearing that up. I think such arrogance, in light of your expansive gallery, would satisfy any serious critic.

At first, I too wanted to vote on the type of images that I prefer. Afterwards, I found that viewing a great variety of images opened and broadened my mind, developped more my tastes and my eye for quality work. I found that even in the categories that I preferred, some images were not to my taste, so why be unhappy? It's like my artist's work, even if I love it, some parts I like less. So in a way, it doesn't matter if I like or don't like an image, it's the quality of the work that I have to judge. An I cannot judge the quality of an image if it's small - after all, they were meant to be viewed at full size. It's the quality test, because flaws can be hidden in a thumbnail. That's how I feel about this matter. :)

Maybe rather than votes be done by GENRE....voting should be done by only people who have a FAIRNESS and CONSIDERATION for ALL genres of art...
It is sad that so many people act selfish and spoiled and would give a bad score to any artist just because they are not interested in the genre. Why not have all voting done by VOLUNTEERS, and maybe an IQ test to qualify.....

From the comments in this thread and others, it's becoming apparent that the voting isn't being used the way it was meant to be used. Or why not use the download to view ratio instead -- if someone took the time to download an image, they must have liked it. That would probably result in a more accurate rating system.

or not....

omg can someone stop this merry-go-round already..? i think i'm gonna hurl : o (

it's a complete mystery to me why people continue to drag this issue over the coals on a more than regular basis despite any possible permutation of the discussion being covered on innumerate occasions on previous threads and assurances that the afore mentioned comments have been noted and that work is constantly in progress to keep the site a fresh and positive experience for its members. This interminable obsessing about facts and figures seams to be reason enough to consider ditching it altogether.

lol two things...

1) if that was a subtle motion to EG it, i second

2)here, have a few commas and a period :P

I think it's unfortunate that the voting booth is not being used the way it was intended to be used. Obviously everyone on Caedes prefers certain types of art - but I think we all can try to look at each image that comes up in the voting booth and do our best to evaluate it to the best of our abilities whether it's our cup of tea or not. I don't think each image is getting enough votes with this system to get a clear evaluation of how an image really does. I still wish if we saw a particular image we felt was extraordinary we could have the option of voting on it instead of just leaving a comment - and that vote would count. And yes, this has been brought up many times and it probably will be brought up many more, but I think everyone has a right to their opinion.

it isnt the expression of one's opinion, nor their right to do so which is bemoaned here.
rather, it's the lack of any new ground being broken. so after reading the same things being written over and over and over again..often by people who already have made their opinions quite clear, and have been around long enough to know all the reponses to their questions and remarks. its this that has gotten old....just thought i'd clarify...

*puts on equipment*

*takes pictures*

nah, no need for battle gear...just trying to explain that the main motive isnt to muzzle...

good luck with that one... :-)

hey .. we could just add a multiplier .. each vote counts as 23.5

then divide that by the drag factor of a high velocity whinge.

and extrapolate the impact ratio over the angle of approach