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Discussion Board -> Elephant Graveyard -> The Voting Booth

The Voting Booth

::muggsy
06/24/06 12:09 AM GMT
I'm new to Caedes and find it to be an extremely intricate and well designed site. The only fly-in-the-ointment I've come across is in the voting booth. Understand I have no objection to voting, in fact I rather enjoy giving some feedback to the many talented members of Caedes.

My problem lies in having to vote on submissions in catagories such as "Computer" and "Abstract" to name two, which are totally foreign to me. In those genres my ignorance of what some artist may have gone through to produce the image I'm viewing, how much time was put into it's creation, how difficult the result may have been to achieve, seems to be putting that artist at an unfair disadvantage. If I go into the voting booth new images come up randomly. If one comes up that I don't wish to vote on, I can't skip by it ... unless there is a trick I'm unaware of. I've tried leaving the voting booth and returning but that same image will be waiting for me and if I don't view it ... cast a vote ... there is no going any further.

I have no appreciation for the art of Picasso nor Dali but there are many who see their work as fantastic. So be it. But why have my personal bias enter into a voting booth to give one of their pieces the thumbs up or thumbs down?

It could be said my personal bias and/or preferences are still there when I vote on "Photography". Granted, but ... if the subject matter doesn't appeal to me in a photo image at least I feel I can judge some of the technical aspects of that photo. Not true when it comes to the other catagories I mentioned.

Perhaps I'm taking this whole voting thing too seriously and making to big a thing about it, yet ... On my initial visit to Caedes, one of the first things to catch my attention was that the "Supreme Omnipotent Caedes" had gone the extra mile to see that all artists got a fair shake in getting feedback on their presentations. Very commendable I thought. I can't help feeling my vote on certain catagories does a disservice to that admirable intention.

Would it be somewhat fairer to have a choice of catagory BEFORE entering the Voting Booth? ... Just a thought. If that Supreme All-Knowing Benefactor of this website should read this I can hear the cry of, " Oh No! ... Not another newbie asking for hundreds of lines of code to be added to the site. IS THERE NO END TO THIS MADNESS? "

Maybe this subject has come up before. Long before I came upon the scene. If so I apologize for taking up time and space. I'm still feeling my way around this wondrous website.

Any thoughts? ... and remember this Johnny-Come-Lately is no Spring Chicken ... Take it easy on me :)
0∈ [?]
Just an old "Grampa" who still has a Kodak "Box" camera kicking around the attic ... learning and enjoying the wonders of modern digital photography.

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.animaniactoo
06/24/06 12:55 AM GMT
Hi John, welcome to the site.

I'd say this thread will give you an idea of the ongoing discussion/argument around this. Believe it or not… this one probably has the least amount of drama and the most coherent pros and cons.
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SMURF SOLIDARITY - THE FIESTY TAVERN SMURFS! 8•D
::muggsy
06/24/06 1:06 AM GMT
Thanks so much Cat for the link to the prior thread about my concern. Only read a small part off that thread so far, but it is exactly what I was trying to get at. Much appreciated.
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Just an old "Grampa" who still has a Kodak "Box" camera kicking around the attic ... learning and enjoying the wonders of modern digital photography.
::cynlee
06/24/06 1:24 AM GMT
I tried to post to the thread noted above by Cat and then I asked a question in the comment box but was informed that only Consul members could post there.
Anyway, if this is listed somewhere else, as I'm sure it must be, please let me know where I can find it. The question: "What determines if an image makes it into the permanent gallery if it isn't the C-index?" Thanks.
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.hernoor
06/24/06 1:54 AM GMT
Answer to Cindy's question (I got this answer from reading all the threads on voting) - After a month, the mods go through and put the image in the perms based on their choice and on any "stand-out" qualities of the image. It can differ depending on which mod does it though.
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Live like there was no tomorrow | When you put your mind to it, you can accomplish anything - Doc Brown | My Gallery
::muggsy
06/24/06 2:01 AM GMT
Re Cindy's question there is a thread titled Main Gallery Nominations that might help answer her question
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Just an old "Grampa" who still has a Kodak "Box" camera kicking around the attic ... learning and enjoying the wonders of modern digital photography.
.animaniactoo
06/24/06 2:08 AM GMT
glad I could help John.

Cyn, the reason you couldn't post there is that the thread was relegated to the Elephant Graveyard… having been about the 400th thread on the subject and already bashed to death 8•)
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SMURF SOLIDARITY - THE FIESTY TAVERN SMURFS! 8•D
::muggsy
06/24/06 2:10 AM GMT
Sorry ... Didn't realize I was waking such a bug-a-boo from the dead. :) Still love the site.
0∈ [?]
Just an old "Grampa" who still has a Kodak "Box" camera kicking around the attic ... learning and enjoying the wonders of modern digital photography.
.animaniactoo
06/24/06 2:14 AM GMT
quite alright john, better that ya ask and be answered 8•)
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SMURF SOLIDARITY - THE FIESTY TAVERN SMURFS! 8•D
::cynlee
06/24/06 2:18 AM GMT
Thanks for all the quick responses. I didn't know about Elephant Graveyards.
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&KEIFER
06/24/06 7:52 AM GMT
Actually .. Voting Booth - Too Random ... might address the issue more closely .. I mean .. who could not like horsies frolicking?)

The stock answer to your plight is .. vote based on straight appeal as a desktop image .. if you factor "the time it takes to create an image" into your process then photography will fall by the wayside since they take a fraction of a second from non-existance to hardcopy (not to belittle the photographic process) .. and, yet, hours can be spent overworking a computer creation and have it be souless and devoid of any qualities

The only issue comes into how you score an image that does not move you at all .. I don't think anybody has an issue if your score fairly .. but when people say they purposely hurt images with low scores because their momma's didn't raise them right

... then it's lynching time
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The Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything = T42
&KEIFER
06/24/06 7:57 AM GMT
Just as an experiment .. ;o)

how do you feel about having the option to "opt-out" of the c-index ... to have your images be vote-less .. vs. .. having a smaller subset of members actually voting and receiving c-index

would you see this dividing of the membership as a good thing .. or a weakening of the community

... discuss
0∈ [?]
The Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything = T42
::cynlee
06/24/06 8:21 AM GMT
I would see that as a weakening of the community. What would be the point and really though what is the point of the C-index? I guess it's to give you some relative sense of how well you are doing what you are doing, to see if what you present has any appeal at all and to help you see also how your own submissions stack up against each other and you can sort of use the index to see where you need improvement. I really don't put a lot of stock in it. If I feel one of my images has a low c-index and I think it is pretty good, I don't get frazzled, I just trudge ahead. On to bigger and better things. I don't get too many negative comments perhaps because people are afraid to speak truthfully and seem rude, so the index tells me more what people are 'really' thinking.

You have to vote on ten images for every upload, so maybe some vote just to be able to do that and voting becomes a means to that
end only. I vote because it gives me an opportunity to view something I might have missed otherwise. I can go back after voting on an image I hadn't seen before and see who the artist is and take a look at their other stuff.

So, I think the voting booth has several purposes and if you don't want to upload, then don't vote. I thought the site's purpose was to promote art and photography and give artist's a chance to critique other's works and learn some things about their own work and be motivated to keep improving. The voting booth is an aid to that happening and it is only one of the features of this web site that keep it interesting.
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.third_eye
06/24/06 12:26 AM GMT
I was just voting last night, and came across a few selections last night that i wasn't sure how to judge. And as others have pointed out, not every artist is well enough versed in all media that we'd come across in this site.

Having said that, I looked at them individually as pieces of art. Color, layout or composition, texture, etc were all taken into consideration. Did it say anything, did it jump out at me, or was it just (sorry) blah? Sad to say, but there were a few blah's.

As for the question of voting versus non-voting, I'd have to favor voting. While yes, there might be a few votes cast by those who don't feel equipped or inspired to do so, the overall benefit outweighs the risk. If my work inspires 2's and 3's, regardless of someone's personal taste as an artist, that pushes me to raise the bar, not whimper in self-pity.And should I land higher votes, well then, success!

Art IS subjective, and while certain qualities can be found, we really aren't all grading this with the same scorecard, but then, how could we?
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I could wile away the hours Conferrin' with the flowers Consultin' with the rain And my head I'd be scratchin' While my thoughts were busy hatchin' If I only had a brain
::cynlee
06/24/06 3:29 PM GMT
Anyway, I thought you needed at least 20 of anything to generate a valid Bell curve and most Caedes images are voted on only 11 to 12 times.
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&KEIFER
06/24/06 5:22 PM GMT
oh oh .. she knows her math .. a sleeper agent if I ever saw one .. ==RUN
0∈ [?]
The Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything = T42
::muggsy
06/24/06 6:02 PM GMT
Well now, I see I've opened up a Pandora's Box with my thread. How utterly stupid of me to think I might be the first to question the Voting Booth. Talk about naive. Talk about ego.
I've spent a good deal of time reading some of the old threads and have come to the conclusion we have to agree to disagree. Both sides of the issue have been given in those threads and each side has been presented very well I might add. I have no solution and see no solution in the near future.

As for the C-Index often mentioned in those threads, I personally pay it little heed. How it's arrived at is a bit of a mystery to me. If this C-Index contributes in any small way to the selection of an image to the Permanent Gallery, it still doesn't concern me in particular ... because I'm certain no photography I've presented to date belongs in that gallery to start with. Not being falsely modest in saying that, just being a realist after viewing the dozens and dozens of exceptional photographs now showing in the New Galleries. I and my submissions, belong in the audience along with all the other wannabees enjoying the images of the really talented artists on center stage where they belong.

I pay much more attention to the "download" statistic. I figure if 50% or more of those viewing my pictures decide to put them on their computer, that's enough to keep my spirits up. Of course why they might be downloaded is another matter. Perhaps someone thought my pictures might be a slight improvement over the Sunday funnies at the bottom of their Parakeets cage. I try NOT to dwell upon that possibility.

I'm not in favor of eliminating voting. As I said when I started this thread, it's not a "chore" I tolerate, to me it's a pleasurable part of being in this community. I'd like it to be fair, at least as fair as possible to all types of artistry. Easier said than done if personal bias, ignorance of a technique or as mentioned in prior threads, people with an axe to grind enter into the equation.

Maybe I can close this thread ( Was that a chorus of "Thank God" I just heard? ) by saying Thank You for your patience, and efforts to direct me to informative discussions on the matter before I arrived on the scene.

Hopefully ... for now ... the lid can be put back on Pandora's Box ... until the next newbie comes along down the road and starts a new thread on the Voting Booth. At which time I will try to be the first one to respond with a word of advice ... "FAGEDABOUDIT"
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Just an old "Grampa" who still has a Kodak "Box" camera kicking around the attic ... learning and enjoying the wonders of modern digital photography.
&KEIFER
06/24/06 6:26 PM GMT
(*tips hat*)
0∈ [?]
The Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything = T42
::J_272004
06/24/06 11:01 PM GMT
Yeah Third Eye.. ", I looked at them individually as pieces of art. Color, layout or composition, texture, etc were all taken into consideration. Did it say anything, did it jump out at me, or was it just (sorry) blah?" FINALLY someone who even though has no idea of a particular style of art, is actually thinking... good to see..

and Muggsy, its great to see you understand what all the moans and groans were about when you came up with the question.. its a never ending story =\
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MY GALLERY ........... "A sense of humour is as important to life as shock absorbers to a car.. It helps us over the bumps im life" / P.K. Shaw
::WENPEDER
06/25/06 3:57 PM GMT
::Sigh:: "A never ending story" that repeatedly ends with one conclusion...namely, that the c-index, as it currently stands, has little or no real value or significance. As long as that remains the case, people will continue to raise the issue and offer suggestions for change. What strikes me is how adverse people are to hearing the truth, choosing instead to plead for silence on the issue, as if those who raise the issue have committed a serious infraction. Sorry folks...that seems silly to me. The issue is real...why not FIX the problem rather than jump on people for raising it? Wen
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::J_272004
06/25/06 9:47 PM GMT
#1 People are wanting silence on the c-index cos it has been flogged to death on almost every thread that is open for discussion and which has absolutely nothing to do with it THAT always pops up as it has now once again. (this discussion was about VOTING not the c-index)

#2 Its only a handful of people who are not happy with it, while the majority ARE happy with it.

#3 You know the reason why it was implimented in the first place

#4 This is Caedes site, he created this and opened it to the public, if he hadnt you wouldnt be able to be post here therefore it is up to him how this site run, and he is trying to be fair with ALL members including the new ones to get the same amount of votes..

New members always get overlooked unless they have OUTSTANDING work, most start off on here with not so good work and learn through this site.. with the voting booth they get the same amount of votes as the older members, I know myself I have come across some great images from new members that I probably would have missed, I've also found some outstanding work from older members that I missed down the track... so to me thats a plus.

If you know how to "Fix the problem" which will be fair to all feel free I'm sure Caedes will be interested in hearing your solution (but its not going to be easy) and I dont mean by segregating Computer from Photography cos that wont work.. because then it will be complaints about how the photographers are getting more votes and more views than computer artists due to the fact that there are more photographers than computer artists.. I know too that some photographers who dont like computer art have actually seen something in the voting booth that has caught their eye, which they wouldnt have even bothered to look at if it hadnt come up in there...

*time to put this elephant to bed now*
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MY GALLERY ........... "A sense of humour is as important to life as shock absorbers to a car.. It helps us over the bumps im life" / P.K. Shaw
::third_eye
06/26/06 11:13 PM GMT
sry to trip up poor mr elephant's bed time, but i have more of a question than a comment...is there any way to know what votes are actually being cast, without actually needing to know by whom?
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I could wile away the hours Conferrin' with the flowers Consultin' with the rain And my head I'd be scratchin' While my thoughts were busy hatchin' If I only had a brain
&KEIFER
06/26/06 11:41 PM GMT
yes .. if *caedes chooses to turn the feature on .. it's been on before but, of course, caused major upheaval when people could see that 'zero' scores were being cast on images not deserving zero scores

we DO love our drama
0∈ [?]
The Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything = T42
::third_eye
06/26/06 11:49 PM GMT
ok, thanks
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I could wile away the hours Conferrin' with the flowers Consultin' with the rain And my head I'd be scratchin' While my thoughts were busy hatchin' If I only had a brain
::WENPEDER
06/27/06 3:25 PM GMT
Jacqueline said: :"...#2 Its only a handful of people who are not happy with it, while the majority ARE happy with it...."

Really? And you know this, how, Jacqueline? A handful of members participate in these discussions....I don't think you can draw conclusions about what the majority think based on their comments. Just because you want to bury this topic doesn't mean everyone does. Did you ever consider the possibility that those who continue to raise the issue do so because they want to offer suggests to help better the site? Just because you don't think their suggestions will work doesn't mean they don't mean well by offering them. Wen
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::J_272004
06/27/06 3:49 PM GMT
Well if only the same handful of members complaining the others mustn't be too upset over it.. they can stand up and say if they are not happy about it.. its the same as you saying on other threads the exact same thing about how many dont want it.. so dont you draw conclusions either thanks.. AND its not just me either that wants this topic buried.. a few other people have said its been flogged to death many many times.. so dont single me out for it... why do you think no one bothers to argue with you anymore? AND I have never ever said at anytime that your suggestions or those of others werent wanted, Its wonderful that people do offer suggestions that isnt even an issue...
I think your just upset because I said that your suggestion for the segregation of photos and computer generated wont work.. that is my opinion which like you am entitled to have...
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MY GALLERY ........... "A sense of humour is as important to life as shock absorbers to a car.. It helps us over the bumps im life" / P.K. Shaw
::laurengary
06/27/06 5:41 PM GMT
Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, of course. The reason I don't participate in these discussions anymore is because it's fruitless. Because of the enormous weight of photographers versus computer people on the site, there will always be a discrepency in the booth. Although, I've actually had the pleasure of getting comments, pleasurable & positive comments, from photo people who've gotten some fractals of mine in the booth & liked them well enough to pop over & say so.
A handful of members only participate in these discussions I imagine for the same reason as I do. Or rather, don't. Nobody wants to get involved in another battle. Nobody wants another flame war of the sort I missed back last August & September. I use the c-index anymore as a sort of base guide, but I pretty much ignore it too. There's a reason I spend half my time on DA you know ....no c-index, no voting. No hassle.
As much as I wish it was different, we're also partly to blame.....at least, according to Phil. On another thread he claimed that computer people, fractalists etc. don't as a rule vote as often as photo people. I personally am guilty of this, so it hits home for me. I don't vote everyday. *Holds up hand * Yes, I know....since the numbers are so vastly different it won't make a difference ...BUT .....if we all voted, consistently ....perhaps when we complained we'd have more of a leg to stand on.
Lastly, it WOULD be nice if we could order up the images we wanted to vote on, rather like an a la carte menu, but I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future.
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I'm not myself today .......maybe I'm you !! ......CLICK TO SAVE LIVES ! .......MY GALLERY
::WENPEDER
06/27/06 6:57 PM GMT
Lauren wrote: "The reason I don't participate in these discussions anymore is because it's fruitless..." Bingo, Lauren! I survey these boards every couple of weeks at this point to see what people are talking about. I used to join the "battle" regularly but now I only chime in every few weeks and, as you suggest, doing so feels rather "fruitless." As for fractalists not voting, I go to the voting booth a couple of times a week and find myself getting frustrated as I rarely get the opportunity to vote on computer generated images. Instead I'm compelled to vote on a number of photographs that I have little interest in. As you suggest, "because of the enormous weight of photographers versus computer people on the site, there will always be a discrepency in the booth.." The way things stand, there is no indication that this is likely to change.

As for who participates in these discussions, I suspect that the majority of "members" here come here to look at images, not "chat."

And Jacqueline, I'm not "upset." I'm simply suggesting that the handful of people who join in these discussions hardly represents the "majority" of those who visit this site. I can see I "upset" you, however, and regret that. Bottom line...we don't agree on this subject. Wen
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.scionlord
06/27/06 10:22 PM GMT
I believe the high occurrence of photography in the voting is entirely due to the high number of photographs in galleries.
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius
::J_272004
06/27/06 11:11 PM GMT
You dont upset me whatsoever, believe me I have had 100 times worse than you over the years... I am just trying to show you that its not going to change and that there is more to life than the c-index.. and that NOT everyone wants it changed as you seem to say...

anyway... I come on here to enjoy the great art work, and the great artists, to relax and share my work with the world.. which is the reason as why I came here in the first place not because I want my work to be the top, in the perm galleries, or have a high c-index, you should be thankful that Caedes lets you use it, he could pull the plug tomorrow if he wanted to.. heres a suggestion, maybe if your so unhappy with how things are run here and you feel you have a way to "fix" the prob that you have with the site, how about making site of your own that way you can have the c-index and voting anyway you want it.. I'm finished on this now.. i'm not going to bang my head against a brickwall anymore... I have said my piece.. have said MY opinion... and for your opinion.. a LOT of members are tired of this and DO want it buried.. THAT I do know... why do you think that i'm the only one who responds to you??
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MY GALLERY ........... "A sense of humour is as important to life as shock absorbers to a car.. It helps us over the bumps im life" / P.K. Shaw
::cgImagery
06/28/06 12:36 AM GMT
wow so many threads on the same frikin topic. idk why ppl r complaing bout this. obviously it isn.t going to change. so why bother complaining!? who cares. just deal w.it. i do hope your life(ves) don.t revolve around the c-index. cause if it does. that.s actually kinda sad.
and this is not towards those who don.t know what the c-index is. just those w.never ending complaints on every thread based on the c-index.
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self.promotion. leads to success. you.ll see. you.ll understand.
::WENPEDER
06/28/06 7:00 AM GMT
Jacqueline, let's get something straight...just because I think the rating/voting system here leaves something to be desired, does NOT mean that I am "so unhappy with how things are run here." So, despite your condescending suggestion that I take a hike, I fully intend to continue to view and share images here. Must you get so melodramatic everytime someone expresses concerns about certain features on this site?

If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times...I think this site is incredible. It's user friendly, the images are high resolution and downloadable in a number of sizes, and the artistry here is outstanding.

As I understand it, this is a "discussion board" on "Non-art WEBSITE issues." Is there no room for honest debate in such discussions, Jacqueline? I didn't start this thread. I joined it and I'm sorry that bothers you so.

And, no, Andrew, my life doesn't "revolve around the c-index," though the way this website is set up, a number of things on Caedes.net seem to and that's what disturbs some members. Why it disturbs you so that the issue continues to be unsettled is a bit hard for me to understand. As long as the system remains of questionable reliability/validity, it's likely to continue to come up. Wen
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::J_272004
06/28/06 7:52 AM GMT
What do you think I'm doing???? I am debating!!! so what your saying is if I debate it with a different opinion to what My thoughts are thats ok to debate? but if i say what I really think then I'm condescending and not having an honest debate??????? LOL... OK whatever... i told you i'm not going through it again.. and i'm not saying anything about your opinion thats fine everyone has a right to say there opinion just like I was having... oh and as for melodramatic.. LOL... hardly.. but if you think I am.. I'll have a gold oscar and all the goodies that the oscar participants get thanks.. LOL
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MY GALLERY ........... "A sense of humour is as important to life as shock absorbers to a car.. It helps us over the bumps im life" / P.K. Shaw
::cgImagery
06/28/06 8:05 AM GMT
Wendy. I wasn.t targeting you when i said " i do hope your life(ves) don.t revolve around the c-index. cause if it does. that.s actually kinda sad." but why does it matter so much then? why does the topic always have to be brought up again? if it doesn.t matter so much. it should just be dropped :)

and as i told you through the pm wendy. if caedes (geri) wants the c-index. it.s his choice and not ours. we don.t pay the monthly pills to keep this site running. we don.t work on keeping this site going. we didn.t spend the time that he spent on putting this site together. yes some of us help out w.the cost by getting the fancy :: but it.s his site. not yours or anyone else.s on this site. so if it really doesn.t matter in importance of your life and health. it shouldn.t be brought up again :)
0∈ [?]
self.promotion. leads to success. you.ll see. you.ll understand.
::J_272004
06/28/06 8:46 AM GMT
That is exactly right.. I've already said that....
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MY GALLERY ........... "A sense of humour is as important to life as shock absorbers to a car.. It helps us over the bumps im life" / P.K. Shaw
&KEIFER
06/28/06 9:07 AM GMT
Hey ... what say we all count to ten before responding .. that way the timestamps will be ten seconds later than they are .. I've heard that this can knock the earth's rotation off by enough to change the weather

let's give it a shot
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The Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything = T42
::muggsy
06/28/06 9:25 AM GMT
Thanks Keith ... It just stopped raining here
0∈ [?]
Just an old "Grampa" who still has a Kodak "Box" camera kicking around the attic ... learning and enjoying the wonders of modern digital photography.
::J_272004
06/28/06 9:28 AM GMT
send the rain here.. we need it... =)
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MY GALLERY ........... "A sense of humour is as important to life as shock absorbers to a car.. It helps us over the bumps im life" / P.K. Shaw
.scionlord
06/28/06 11:22 AM GMT
hmm....shake hands, play nice.
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius
::WENPEDER
06/28/06 2:50 PM GMT
LOL! I was up much of the night with a sick mom, Keith, but think your 10 second suggestion is a winner. Scoinlord/Andrew, there's really no "playing nice" here if all voices of dissent are advised to shut up or leave, now is there? As I said in my first entry to this thread:

"What strikes me is how adverse people are to hearing the truth, choosing instead to plead for silence on the issue, as if those who raise the issue have committed a serious infraction. Sorry folks...that seems silly to me. The issue is real...why not FIX the problem rather than jump on people for raising it?"....

From the comments I've seen from site moderators, those managing this site are indeed looking at issues related to voting, rating of images, etc. etc. etc...on an ongoing basis. That's GOOD and will make this site a continuing success. Have a good day all. Wen
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::muggsy
06/28/06 3:00 PM GMT
Uhh ! ... Is it safe to come out of my shelter now ? This helmets killing me.
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Just an old "Grampa" who still has a Kodak "Box" camera kicking around the attic ... learning and enjoying the wonders of modern digital photography.
&KEIFER
06/28/06 3:06 PM GMT
There is no more hail in your forecast, John .. by having Wendy count to ten, it was just enough to bring the sun out in your neck of the woods
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The Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything = T42
::muggsy
06/28/06 3:46 PM GMT
Thanks for weather forecast Keith. I've tried keeping away from the thread. I felt like the guy who walks into a bar, orders a drink and then brings up a VERY controversial subject ... then offers to hold everyones coat while he calmly sips his drink and watches the donnybrook take place from his barstool. Not a role I am comfortable in playing.
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Just an old "Grampa" who still has a Kodak "Box" camera kicking around the attic ... learning and enjoying the wonders of modern digital photography.
&KEIFER
06/28/06 4:06 PM GMT
Not your fault at all .. nobody here thinks that despite what may be tossed around while the fur is flying .. trust me on that

but if you ever hear the tom-toms hit a certain beat .. "puh-dum-pah ... dum" .. repeated three times .. don't bother to finish your drink ... =RUN
0∈ [?]
The Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything = T42
::muggsy
06/28/06 4:09 PM GMT
LOL ... I'll keep your warning in mind. LOL
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Just an old "Grampa" who still has a Kodak "Box" camera kicking around the attic ... learning and enjoying the wonders of modern digital photography.
.scionlord
06/28/06 4:51 PM GMT
Wen, I believe the point is that you have raised the issue time and time again in various threads. No doubt the various mods and even Caedes himself have understood the point you are putting across.

What is frankly annoying is that you continually bring it up and apparently ignore the fact that this place is a hobby run by Caedes, and can do whatever he pleases. Any changes that are made are for the benefit of the site.

Changes are made as and when he has the time to do them, and berating everyone about it is not going to get it done faster.

That is why we are getting to the end of our patience Wen, so have a time out for a change...
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius
::muggsy
06/28/06 4:56 PM GMT
* Putting helmet back on and cocking ear for the sound of Tom-Toms*
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Just an old "Grampa" who still has a Kodak "Box" camera kicking around the attic ... learning and enjoying the wonders of modern digital photography.
.scionlord
06/28/06 5:00 PM GMT
(continues)....muggsy was asking a valid question for a newcomer to the site, and animaniactoo linked to the ongoing discussion, with further clarification from some other members.

That is all I have to say on this ongoing matter...

Please...discuss amongst yourselves....I'm off for my dinner.
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius
&KEIFER
06/28/06 5:07 PM GMT
John .. in case you don't know .. you can "unsubscribe" from a thread you created .. or .. "subscribe" to any thread or image not created by you ..

just click the "subscribe" related button under the original post .. that way you won't be getting alerts to the hurtin' bein' laid down herein .. ;o) ... and you can just read it as a regular forum post in your travels .. and then say .. "hmmppfft, I wonder who that Muggsy bloke is" .. like the rest of us
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The Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything = T42
.animaniactoo
06/28/06 5:13 PM GMT
and all I'm askin for is… now that everyone is aware of all the fact/issues involved, can we please wait until images are getting a more significant amount of votes to evaluate whether or not the c-index is working then. tyvm.

(I say this even as I am brokenhearted that my last effort got a 33 *goes off to cry into my tea*)
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SOLIDARITY - THE FIESTY TAVERN WENCHES!
::cgImagery
06/28/06 5:41 PM GMT
*taps cat.s back sympathetically*
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self.promotion. leads to success. you.ll see. you.ll understand.
::muggsy
06/28/06 6:16 PM GMT
Gotcha Keith I may follow that suggestion :) But first a few words from the sponsor ...

I started this thread with good intentions. Because I didn't do my homework and was too lazy to delve into the discussion board threads of the past, I opened up another path for the Voting Booth river of discontent to flow. If I had it to do over again ... not likely.

I've only been a member of the community for less than a month. I find it to be without exception to be haven for Artists, Photographers and the general public on the internet, especially when you consider membership requires no more than a registration without any fee. It seems to me Caedes has done everything possible to make the site ... open to all ... fair to all ... and very user friendly.

I liken carping on this matter; To being in "Heaven" and endlessly griping about a squeaky hinge on the Pearly Gate that grates on the nerves. Somehow I think it unwise to pressure the THE BOSS running the joint to oil the hinge. He just might go one better and with the clap his hands ... "POOF" ... welcome to limbo.

NOW ... I'm going to take that advice Keith :)
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Just an old "Grampa" who still has a Kodak "Box" camera kicking around the attic ... learning and enjoying the wonders of modern digital photography.
&KEIFER
06/28/06 7:31 PM GMT
uh oh .. the boss's head is gonna swell .. again .. after THAT remark
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The Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything = T42
::J_272004
06/28/06 9:07 PM GMT
Exactly Andrew.... but it will still keep on going... and Mugsy.. thats exactly right too, its Geri's plaything, he can do what he likes with it.. he must have the patience of a saint to put up with all this whinning.. lol..
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MY GALLERY ........... "A sense of humour is as important to life as shock absorbers to a car.. It helps us over the bumps im life" / P.K. Shaw
.scionlord
06/28/06 9:26 PM GMT
*apologises to muggsy for involving him in the chaotic flux of argument*
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius
::J_272004
06/28/06 9:31 PM GMT
dont feel bad Muggsy.. this happens to every thread, even if it was about the change in the weather, it would still be brought up... even more so if you use the evil magic words "voting" "images" "gallery" and never ever ever use the most evil devastating word if you do always whisper it "c-index" ....
*please note this comment is not intended to be an attack on anyone..it was called sarcastic humour*
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MY GALLERY ........... "A sense of humour is as important to life as shock absorbers to a car.. It helps us over the bumps im life" / P.K. Shaw
::muggsy
06/29/06 3:32 AM GMT
No apology necessary Andrew * grits teeth *

Jacqueline I don't feel bad * wipes tear from cheek * All part of learning the ropes in the community.

AND Keith ... if you have any pull with our Benefactor ... could you tell him I'm not such a bad guy ? Cause ... I just looked up the Latin meaning for the word Caedes ... It ain't pretty !
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Just an old "Grampa" who still has a Kodak "Box" camera kicking around the attic ... learning and enjoying the wonders of modern digital photography.
::J_272004
06/29/06 3:34 AM GMT
LOL... yep the word Caedes puts the fear into the fearsome.. lol.. here ya go you can borrow my tissue its only been used once.. LOL...
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MY GALLERY ........... "A sense of humour is as important to life as shock absorbers to a car.. It helps us over the bumps im life" / P.K. Shaw
&KEIFER
06/29/06 3:57 AM GMT
Here .. same goes for my diaper
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The Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything = T42
::J_272004
06/29/06 4:03 AM GMT
LOL... yep thats true too
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MY GALLERY ........... "A sense of humour is as important to life as shock absorbers to a car.. It helps us over the bumps im life" / P.K. Shaw
::muggsy
06/29/06 6:16 AM GMT
See how first impressions can be so wrong. I thought you two had no hearts ... and here you are bearing gifts. NEW not used would have been nicer ... nonetheless it's the thought that counts. Thanks ! :) * Closes computer ... content in knowing there are those who love him *
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Just an old "Grampa" who still has a Kodak "Box" camera kicking around the attic ... learning and enjoying the wonders of modern digital photography.
::J_272004
06/29/06 6:32 AM GMT
hehehehe... we like to share.. lol...
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MY GALLERY ........... "A sense of humour is as important to life as shock absorbers to a car.. It helps us over the bumps im life" / P.K. Shaw
.scionlord
06/29/06 6:00 PM GMT
rotflmao...
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius
::J_272004
06/30/06 12:07 AM GMT
We'll share the tissue and diaper with you too Andrew.. lol
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MY GALLERY ........... "A sense of humour is as important to life as shock absorbers to a car.. It helps us over the bumps im life" / P.K. Shaw
::third_eye
07/09/06 5:18 PM GMT
sorry, just one more thought on the matter....if noone minds...
i noticed all of my images got all of 14 or so votes each....could allowing images to accrue more votes perhaps alter the outcome? just wondering
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I could wile away the hours Conferrin' with the flowers Consultin' with the rain And my head I'd be scratchin' While my thoughts were busy hatchin' If I only had a brain
&philcUK
07/09/06 5:29 PM GMT
As has already been mentioned, images will accrue more votes as time progresses and if more people participate in voting in the first place.
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.animaniactoo
07/09/06 6:05 PM GMT
and yes… that should most definitely affect the outcome… the larger your sampling, in general the more accurate your results 8•)
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SOLIDARITY - THE FIESTY TAVERN WENCHES!
=Piner
07/09/06 6:13 PM GMT
One of the reasons that the random voting booth was implemented was to ensure that all images get roughly an equal number of votes.
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The work of art may have a moral effect, but to demand moral purpose from an artist is to make him ruin his work. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe - 1832)
.animaniactoo
07/09/06 7:29 PM GMT
show off
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SOLIDARITY - THE FIESTY TAVERN WENCHES!
::cgImagery
07/10/06 1:20 AM GMT
he has a "=" he's allowed to show off.

so tom. do i get anything special for saying that? ;)
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self.promotion. leads to success. you.ll see. you.ll understand.
.animaniactoo
07/10/06 1:40 AM GMT
brown noser *snicker*
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SOLIDARITY - THE FIESTY TAVERN WENCHES!
::WENPEDER
07/18/06 9:45 AM GMT
Phil wrote: As has already been mentioned, images will accrue more votes as time progresses and if more people participate in voting in the first place.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.animaniacto wrote:
and yes… that should most definitely affect the outcome… the larger your sampling, in general the more accurate your results 8•)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Archived images will not "accrue" votes and, from the looks of it, a "sampling" less than 15 will determine their rating "status" for all time once they are archived. Third eye suggested "allowing images to acrue more votes" before they are archived. I strongly support that suggestion and would further suggest that images are not archived until they have acrued at least 15 to 20 votes. As I understand it, they are currently archived automatically after a certain length of time. Wen

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::cgImagery
07/18/06 10:57 AM GMT
wendy V_V does this matter to you so much?? like honestly not to get you mad...let it go. if they're archived they're archived. it's cause they didn't get the attention they needed or w/e the mods use to put them into the perms. the votes are votes. votes are opinions and not facts er yea facts. so yea. i hope you understood this. it's been a while since i slept so yea. but let it go-oo....

and and and! at least the archived images stay in your gallery and aren't thrown out into the pooper. just like this thread needs to go xD
0∈ [?]
self.promotion. leads to success. you.ll see. you.ll understand.
::third_eye
07/18/06 11:41 AM GMT
hold up! wen...please if you're going to beat an issue to death, as seems to be the case here, don't drag me into it with you. as of tomorrow i'm here all of a month, and you're going to be here almost a year and a half. point being i ask things out partially out of academic curiosity, and partially out of ignorance, perhaps not being totally familiar with an issue already played out in the boards.

this is a private site, ran by a private person, aided by other private people, all doing so for no money. i've stated i dont understand certain things, maybe i dont totally agree with one or two. but holy crap...why do you submit your work, to share it, or to garner a popularity factor? time to let the issue fizzle out.

oh i hate to pull out the elephant gun again, seeing how i'm just a member on this site,and a new one at that...but BLAM...never saw a finer candidate for the EG than this thread....
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I could wile away the hours Conferrin' with the flowers Consultin' with the rain And my head I'd be scratchin' While my thoughts were busy hatchin' If I only had a brain
::J_272004
07/18/06 12:05 AM GMT
*Sits in the corner silently (to keep out of trouble.. =D) nodding and smiling ... hands the man with 3 eyes the bullets ( hoping at least he has one good eye..) ... lol
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MY GALLERY ........... "A sense of humour is as important to life as shock absorbers to a car.. It helps us over the bumps im life" / P.K. Shaw
+Samatar
07/18/06 12:12 AM GMT
We wouldn't even need an EG if people would stop responding to this sort of thing... it takes two to debate... my suggestion is that if you are sick of hearing about it, stop getting involved. If no one responds then the thread will die by itself.
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion- rescope.com.au
::third_eye
07/18/06 12:16 AM GMT
ok, samatar..duly noted...a sound piece of advice.
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I could wile away the hours Conferrin' with the flowers Consultin' with the rain And my head I'd be scratchin' While my thoughts were busy hatchin' If I only had a brain
::WENPEDER
07/18/06 5:56 PM GMT
LOL! Third eye (rob), I was simply saying I thought your idea was a good one. Ya know, what is clearly noted is how cruely sarcastic a handful of people get when people make suggestions to try to better the voting process here or to try to understand it better.. Threads quickly disintegrate into snide asides aimed at halting discussion. Three or four people seem to dominate almost all threads on these boards with slapstick sarcasm and personal digs. Laughing "with" people is one thing . . . laughing "AT" them is quite another and it seems to happen whenever anyone challenges the status quo here. So, again, Lauren was clearly right...participation in these discussions is basically "fruitless." People are so "DEFENSIVE" when it comes to any reference to the voting system that it's not worth the effort to put forth ideas that may actually make it work better.

On to bigger and better things....Wen
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::hernoor
07/18/06 6:04 PM GMT
Uh...Wen, you said "fruitless" - then why do you keep bringing it up over and over? Sam is right - it WAS dead on page 2 but then you brought it up after more than a week. You can PM me if you don't want to discuss this in public or add more to this thread.

I apologize for posting more to this thread, but I had to get it off my chest - this will be my last post on this thread.
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Tomorrow might never be | When you put your mind to it, you can accomplish anything - Doc Brown | My Gallery
.animaniactoo
07/18/06 6:22 PM GMT
I think the point is merely that patience has been asked for and does not seem to be being received. We can't truly evaluate the current system until images are accruing more votes. After images are accruing 20-25, as I said, I will be happy to revisit the issue then. Continuing to bring it up at the current time seems like a battering over the head. I understand that you truly want it to work for everyone Wen, and that your suggestions are made in good faith, I just think that we need to let it be for now until we have more data.

Caedes has worked hard to create a system that he feels is fair to everyone, and has expanded our galleries so that we get to keep our images that have been archived available to see. Keeping all the images in the "New Images" gallery until they've gotten the chance to accrue more votes will just drag down the server and make it slower… it will likely be 3-4 months before they're getting a more stable # an the standard is to try not to leave images in the "New" gallery for more than a month… or they're not really new anymore 8•) Besides… you have to appreciate that in the days of yore… they were just gone, completely off the site, and frequently never even got the chance to get enough votes to calculate any kind of c-index.

Caedes is working hard, and everyone has an opinion… all I'm saying is the subject has been hashed, rehashed, deep fried and mashed… let's give the man a little breathing room for now. Deal?
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SOLIDARITY - THE FIESTY TAVERN WENCHES!
::muggsy
07/18/06 8:42 PM GMT
Good Grief! ... I started this thread nearly a month ago. Wish I could turn back the clock. That would mean returning Andrews tissue and Keiths diaper (BOTH USED) but I'm willing to make the supreme sacrifice especially now that I realize there are elephant guns being brought into play. The "Quadrisexual Alien" above seems to have summed up the situation very well I think. Hopefully this thread will vanish into oblivion sooner than later. To my alien friend above I say ... DEAL!
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Just an old "Grampa" who still has a Kodak "Box" camera kicking around the attic ... learning and enjoying the wonders of modern digital photography.
::J_272004
07/18/06 10:57 PM GMT
Well said
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MY GALLERY ........... "A sense of humour is as important to life as shock absorbers to a car.. It helps us over the bumps im life" / P.K. Shaw
*caedes
07/19/06 1:42 PM GMT
Opinions noted and saved for future reference in the EG.
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-caedes

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