Let me start off by saying that I would like to have a fairly calm, rational debate about this. I do not want people flaming each other, and I do not want this approached from a Religious viewpoint. If you would like to discuss it in a religious vein, please start another thread and do it there. If this thread unravels and simply becomes a bunch of people ranting and raving, I will ask Caedes and/or Piner to EG it immediately.

So the question is… Where's the Moral Line? What is societally acceptable behavior, and what comments are okay to make? Is it really okay to make certain types of comments only behind closed doors among like-minded people?

This question came up in my mind because a friend told me today that Kenneth Lay (of Enron fame) had a heart attack and died and my immediate response was "Good for him! I wonder if his life insurance policy goes to the Enron Employees Pension Fund?". Now, while it was funny to me, and the person that I said it to (and someone else I repeated it to later… who then ended up on the receiving side of a rant poor boy), it was certainly meanspirited, and maybe I'm a horrible person? My reaction comes from what I know of the man, how he ran his company and how he damaged both the country and thousands of employees who deserved to be treated much better. We're still stuck in this "the rich are gettin richer and the poor are gettin poorer" and the rich are gettin away w/murder mode of society atm (yes Phil, fascist state… some of us HAVE noticed).

Similarly (I know I'm going to get HAMMERED for this), I am no fan of Ronald Reagan, his Reagonomics (if trickle-down economics led to the Great Depression the 1st time around, what really made any of the bright people agree that it would have a diff result this time?) and his breaking of the Air Traffic Controllers strike. Thus, when he died, and there was all the foofarah and ceremony, (after my sister called to celebrate… ok… I guess she's a mean and horrible person too?) my primary reaction to his death was "OMG! They cancelled JEOPARDY! so we could watch some dead guy lie around? WTFrig!"

I have a certain type of "actions have consequences" mindset, and I can sometimes be quite unsympathetic towards people who bring things on themselves. So where's the Moral Line? Where does society benefit by having someone like me call a spade a spade in my eyes, where does it benefit by taking the time to consider all sides and other possible redeeming qualities, and when does that just become a good idea gone bad?

(While this is the topic currently under discussion, as we debate, I would simply ADORE having people pose other situations and questions about where the moral line is for those)

Hey Cat...I feel much the same as you do. I was glad to hear about Reagan having alzeimers, because it brought the problem to the front burner and people started wanting to do something about it. When he died...well honestly, I'd forgot that he'd died, so it must not have bothered me much at the time of his death either.
Now when Mother Theresa died a few years back I was saddened...here was a woman who devoted her life to helping people, and while she was a religious/spiritual person, the people she helped didn't have to be, they just needed to be in need of help.
I thinkfor me, my morality is somewhat spiritually based...not religiously based. I believe in being fair, in helping others, in going that extra mile...yet I personally KNOW people who claim to be "good __________(fill in religion of choice)" who are really d**kheads...awful people who won't help others, who are two-faced, etc...does their religion mean they are better than me??? I say no. I "judge" a person on who they are, not what they believe. If someone is atheist, but very loving and helpful, is that persons lack of religious beliefs a bad thing? I think not. If you are filthy fudging rich, but don't use any of that money to help others, then in my mind, you're a real a**hole. Maybe that's why I like Angelina Jolie so much...yeah, she can do kooky things (at least some people hink so, I admire that kookiness) but in her heart, she is all about helping people, helping kids, etc. So what if she gets paid 15 million a movie, she's out in the dumps helping ALOT more than Paris Hilton, who I think is a spoiled, selfish, dumb twit. Paris Hilton jetsets to far away places to shop. Angelina Jolie jetsets to get down and dirty and maybe make a little difference in someones life.
I guess he point I am making is that in a "moral" arena, my view is this:
What the hell makes you beter than me??
Being rich or religious doesn't necessarily make someone better. As for tha Enron guy...I'm sure his family is feeling their loss, but to me, i is no loss at all...so many people got screwed over at Enron, that I am hoping he gets his karmic come-uppance when he is standing in front of the pearly gates...if that is mean, I won't apologize...because in my mind the major heads of Enron were a form of rapist and/or theif...while there wasn't PHYSICAL harm done, they really hurt so many...and so I have no sympathy for anyone like that.

The trouble with asking such a question is that most people don't always know where their own stands. Personally, my moral line is the bible. Other people may not agree with me, but where do the most basic statutes of society come from? The bible says not to steal, commit adultery, kill, and even athiest society follows these laws.

that's alot to read, both of you.. (*rubs eyes*)

Yes Tim, but this is why I asked for this not to be a religious discussion. I don't steal because it's harmful to others. However, are there some cases where stealing is acceptable? What are those situations? Where's THAT moral line?

We as a society follow certain basic precepts and have a certain ethical viewpoint that is based on what makes it possible for us to continue to co-exist. There does not have to be any religious basis for those, which is why people who are atheists follow them.

I'd like to invite you to challenge yourself, and consider where the moral line is from that viewpoint, not because you follow what is written in the bible. Expand your horizon and think about how you feel about each of those things from the standpoint of what allows us to be a community.

I'll write more later, but ya know… they actually expect me to work for my money around here.

And yes Beanie Boy… it sure is 8•P

Surely the most basic precept for drawing a moral and ethical line is by following the law of the land of the country you live in? Use that in a combination with your own good sense than you cant really go wrong. Humans by their very nature can be cruel and spiteful creatures, a trait they share with other evolved mammalian species so there will always be examples of them being vile to each other and their surroundings – its always been that way and always will be. I don’t think it is practical to live rigidly by doctrinal teachings as these often contravene the law and so whilst you could use them as moral yardstick you should do so with care. Yes the bible says you shouldn’t kill, commit adultery etc but it’s also a book of many contradictions and in other places actively condones such practises as polygamy, infanticide, rape, slavery and capital punishment, so make of that what you will. If you live in a particular country or choose to migrate to one then you have to be prepared to abide by it’s laws and tenets rather than trying to graft a morality and law system onto it which is totally alien to that environment. Most countries have very extensive laws covering morality and social behaviour so I see no problem in using that as your benchmark as to where to draw the line.

No, the bible doesn't contradict itself, and it doesn't condone any of those things, except capital punishment. Personally, putting your own 'good' sense as a moral yardstick doesn't work very well. Look, I didn't intend to make this religious in ANY way. This society has an overwealming problem with the 'do what feels good' philosophy. I'd much rather follow the bible in VAIN than find out that I was right in the first place and follow the rest of society.

Yes, it does condone all those things and I believe I said that following the law of the land should be the implicit yardstick for your behaviour.

*cough cough* GOIN DOWNHILL. If you guys wanna argue about what the bible does or doesn't say, go make your own thread for that!

more later.

fair enough, I'll consider myself suitably chastised......

See for me, there are gray areas...I won't go out and purposely murder someone, but you can believe that I would most definately kill any SOB in the defense of my kids...for me, since becomming a mom, my ideas have changed. Before I thought I would never be capable of killing, now as a mom, I would do anything and EVERYTHING to protect my kids. Will I steal...no...would I steal if it meant that my kids survive (like stealing food or water)...yeah, I probably would steal then. So for me, things that wouldn't have done as a single/childless woman, I would do if put in a position of having to protect/save my family. I don't think it makes me evil, or sending me to Hell. For me, it's a mama-bear instinct...fourleggers will kill or steal any chance they have, to care for their kids. Some things I think go beyond what is moral/ethical.

There's nothing of any importance in life - except how well you do your work. Nothing. Only that. Whatever else you are, will come from that. It's the only measure of human value. All the codes of ethics they'll try to ram down your throat are just so much paper money put out by swindlers to fleece people of their virtues. The code of competence is the only system of morality that's on a gold standard.

Do what you will, as long as it doesn't deprive or negatively impact others. Though I must agree with akashastrega about defending my family, I wouldn't hesitate to put a 45 caliber slug between someone's eyes to defend my home & family, they waived their right to go on living when they decided to prey on others.

well, that works on the paper of your mind .. but, more often than not, the guy breaking into your house and slipping on your grape sody pop on your kitchen floor .. can sue you and WIN

your 45 caliber slug is better saved for the American Justice system

overlawyered.com .. basically .. these are all links to crooks throwing books .. like .. this

Which just goes to show that people are evil and stupid.

Dead men tell no tales (nor sue).

Quote:
" Dead men tell no tales (nor sue). "

Amen to THAT one.
I have heard alot lately about the bad guy suing the people and WINNING...to me that is total BS and a complete failure on the part of the judicial system...like Tom said...if they break into my home and threaten my family, they have forfeited ALL rights, including their right to live.

okay… so I started to post… and the phone rang… and well… then I was on for a LONG time… and now I must go to bed…

tomorrow? 8•)

For me it is simple - treat others as you would want them to treat you, obey the law, and do not condemn others for having different moral standards based on their own cultures.
BUT like Jenn I would beg borrow or steal to protect my children and grandchildren, and in certain extreme situations be prepared to kill to protect them.

I could never eat a cat, or a rat, but some cultures would be just as disgusted with me for eating a cow. It is the same in most areas of life. I guess if I was starving I would eat a cat, if I really think about it, just as I would steal, or injure another human being to save my loved ones, when under normal circumstances either would be abhorrent to me, as well as being unlawful.

In New Zealand we have the Accident Compensation Act under which the right to sue is not an option. It states "If you have been injured at home, at work, in the car or while playing sport, you may be entitled to accident compensation assistance from ACC. ACC can also provide assistance if you have suffered sexual abuse, medical misadventure or the accidental death of a family member."
Every citizen can make a claim for ACC - including those injured while commiting a crime. NOW to me that is unethical - my taxes being used to pay for treatment for a person hurt while escaping prison or attacking an innocent person, and even claiming compensation for loss of wages as a result of that.

Wow ...that bites. I was put in a cast for 6 months because Gary & I hit a car carrier, a semi, who got off on the wrong exit from the freeway & blew a stop sign right in front of us while trying to get back on the freeway. We were going 50 MPH & couldn't stop in time & basically t-boned the truck. My upper right arm was crushed & I ended up eventually getting surgery, I now am the proud possessor of a plate & 7 screws holding all the pieces parts together & you better believe we sued.
I'd be real upset if I couldn't. Does the ACC cause much aggravation, Eve ? And I agree with you, though my taxes are used to take care of escaping prisoners here too. It's my taxes that pay for their hospital bills when they're injured while escaping or any other time.

Ouch, bad accident Lauren :(
ACC is just a fact of life here and most people agree with it - it is virtually a no- fault no cost general accident insurance, and has been in effect since 1974. It covers medical costs in the form of a subsidy, rehabilitation, support in the home, and 80% of lost earnings. Up until 1992 there was also a lump sum compensation for permanent disabilty.
So - no civil actions for personal injury. It also protects health care professionals against negligence claims. That does not mean they go unpunished as there are internal diciplinary actions which can lead to criminal charges.
So if I fall off my chair while using my computer I can claim ACC and if my injuries prevent me from going to work I can claim for loss of wages, even if it is my own stupidity that causes me to fall.

That's what y'alls lookin' for...an actual line. There's none..nada. It's the one inside your head....forever scared.

Use your illusion to fit your needs, not others...

I have had an EPIPHANY!

The moral line is always 1 step ahead not 2 steps back.

I agree with Phil… by nature, we're greedy people, it's not until we're socialized by interaction w/other children and adults that we become concerned w/others around the age of about 4 or so I believe. It is REALLY cute to watch my niece sit there w/her eyes huge and a certain look on her face saying "It's okay Mommy, I don't mind, Jamesy can have it". You KNOW she's lying through her teeth, and she's trying so hard to convince herself that she's not. She really loves her little brother… she just wants everything in the world to be hers!

I don't think going by the laws of the country/state I live in works for me. This country has alot of stupid laws. Good example for me: New York's Supreme Court just ruled that gay marriage is not permitted by our constitution and that a ban on it is not unconstitutional. Well pardon me… I'm not gay, but I see no reason why people who choose to commit to a life together are not entitled to the same benefits as man/woman partnerships. That line about "it's because marriage is for producing children" or other variations that I've heard? Very well… A) Gay couples adopt and raise children and B) Not everyone who gets married has children. If you want to go by that theory, it should be mandatory for all married couples to reproduce immediately. No matter how badly this is gonna mess up their kids (cuz some of them really should NOT have children tyvm). See… there I am… that moral line again… oops… it was mean. But ya know what? I don't care on that one, cuz it's TRUE.

As far as people suing for their own stupidity… well I personally think people should be held accountable for their own actions… some may be forgiven, but if you are damaged due to the results of your own actions… the consequences are on YOUR head and no one elses. I DIDN'T sue for something that I know now that I should have simply because I'm so tired of such things. And really? WHO TOLD YOU TO PUT THE HOT COFFEE BETWEEN YOUR LEGS WHILE YOU WERE DRIVING YOU IDIOT? WHO CARES HOW HOT IT WAS? IT WAS A HOT BEVERAGE… DIDN'T YOU LEARN BY THE AGE OF BEING ABLE TO DRIVE HOW TO TREAT HOT SUBSTANCES W/CARE AND PRECAUTION? /end rant. pardon me… that one still REALLY gets me. I think it's led to so many other spates of stupid lawsuits that she got away w/that one.

alrighty… i'm going to stop for now… cuz I need to go turn on the A/C… and people might reach through the monitor and kill me if this post gets much longer.

edit: ok… I wasn't done yet… if you break into my house… if you harm or attempt to harm me or mine… you deserve w/e I do to you, and you better be running fast because I am VICIOUS in the protection of me and mine, and in that moment, I don't care 2 cents about your well-being or motivations. so sorry. try again next time.

Wait Cat, are you saying it would be wrong of me to sue because I was driving with my cellphone in one hand, my hot coffee between my legs, while trying to put on my lipstick AND change a cd thereby crashing into someone??? Well damn that sucks!!!
=D
Seriously, I completely agree with you on that one. I don't think it is fair justice that an idiot or a criminal should sue for harm done to them while being an idiot/criminal.
But then I am all for putting a rapist or murderer in front of the victim's family, closing the door and giving them family 10 minutes of freebie time to do as they want. I can be pretty nasty...and if someone ever hurt a family member...especially my kids...it would be a pretty safe bet that I would do my damndest to put that person out of existence. Yet...I would NEVER think to harm someone just because...
I guess I have like a split personality when it comes to the moral thing...on a daily basis, I try to be the best person I can be, help others, donate to charities when I am able, etc...but things definately would change if someone was threatening my family...


**edit
and as for the gay marriage thing...most of my friends are gay, some have adopted, and are better parents than those in hetero relationships...so it really gets my panties in a twist when people get all gay-bashy (physically or verbally)

lol @ the "gets my panties in a twist" lol. made me laugh ;P

and i agree w/you cat. and jen ;P for all that you both said. specially 4 the car driving cd changing hot coffee between the legs thing. wise women ;)

why ty sir cgimaginary 8•)

I'm not sure if I have a split personality or I just know where my line is for most things. I don't think that it takes that much effort to treat others w/basic courtesy & respect, but I'm known well for my blunt take on alot of issues (as I said when I started this thread. lol). If you push my buttons and do not accept my basic courtesy for what it is, I don't really blow up, but I do lose patience. I wouldn't call myself an impatient person, but I'm definitely not a saint either.

I think people should be given the chance to redeem themselves and learn the error of their ways, and yet I'm sick & tired of seeing convicted criminals get out of jail on day release or w/e because it would break their little girl's heart if Daddy wasn't there to walk them down the aisle. So sorry, too bad. That's the penalty your family pays for your action. It's part of your punishment. Oh… and you get to pay her therapy bills for it too. Kid's graduation? Trick or Treating? Same deal… so sorry, you get to sit your rear in jail, they'll videotape it for ya.

Coming from a bad family or having been an abused child is not an excuse either. (Major personal info coming, stop reading if you don't want it). I was abused by my birth mother, I had horrible issues that arose from that for most of my childhood and up until my early 20's. I went through 7 years of therapy, and I worked hard to change who I was, to know who I wanted to be, and worked to become that person. Now here's the deal: I understand alot of what happened because she was abused by her father… and I know about the cycle of abuse… but I don't forgive her for it.

We've all had those moments when we can't stop ourselves from doing something, but if they happen frequently? then get yourself help. w/e you have to do, there are support groups, sure therapy can be expensive, but there are also ways to get yourself help that are free and/or cheap. And if you're not going to be determined and get yourself that help? Well then it's ON YOU. Your actions beyond that are ON YOU.

I have other friends who were abused much much worse than I was… and they've had their issues… and they've grown into pretty good people. They've made a conscious choice that they're not going to be jerks, and they're going to make their lives better. I was 9 years old and I remember being afraid that someday i would abuse my own children. It took helping to raise my youngest sister (who was born when I was 10) to get me over that fear. All in all, the hot coffee and everything… I guess I'm saying it's about standing up and taking personal responsibility. That's where my moral line is for most things. Anything you do or say is fine as long as it's not harmful to yourself or another on average, and if it is, then you stand up and you take responsibility for it.

and other than that… I just goofball my way through life 8•)

okay… this died… and Phil and I were having fun debating on another thread… soooo… *drags back to the top*

The Death Penalty… when is it appropriate?

GO FOR IT! (remember, no name calling and no getting hysterical and fanatical either!)

hmmmm, do you want to take? the moral approach, the ethical approach, or the statistical approach? depending on which door you open, each lead to very very different destinations...

moral or ethical. anything else you choose to throw in as debate fodder is more than welcome. 8•)

ok, how about this... it's a very subjective punitive measure that serves mostly to appease those most angered or offended by the condemned's act or acts, but in actuality has been proven to be factually and statistically ineffective. as such, i'd say re-invest that money into prevention...

*wades into this conversation apprehension*

Healthy debate is a good thing so here goes....

May I say that there is some value to punitive measures, such as, a warning (even if small) to others, a sense of justice served (even if small) to those victimized, and a reprieve (even if briefly) for society as a whole.

However, if you would prefer to take the "re-invest funds into prevention route," then where do you start?

You could start with the media, which glorifys and exploits our baser instincts, such as, violence, drugs, alcohol, sex, stealing, lying, cheating, gangsters etc. This, of course, would lead to censorship which wouldn't fly for a minute in the land of the free.

How about National and local crime prevention programs...got em' and they have some success.

How about more social service programs to help people....got em' and they have some success.

I could go on, but the bottom line is there is no "silver bullet" (excuse the pun) to correct a society so out of control, well except one, but I won't go there because it would need to be another thread.

I have learned that the most important thing to know about life is this....Relationship

We are social creatures who need one another to survive. Our relationship with other people and objects can be built on unhealthy foundations or healthy ones. I agree that we are responsible for our choices. Each moment we chose to be a vehicle of broken relationship or whole relationship to those people and things around us. Yes, you can have unhealthy relationships with objects, such as, too much time in the recliner (not enough excercise) or too much time at the gym (overly concerned about excercise).

*Steps off her soap box and exits stage left*

On a slightly off topic note, I saw a news story a few weeks ago about how China has a billion dolar industry based on selling the organs of executed prisoners to foreigners for large sums of cash. Did you know they execute more people there than every other country in the world put together? And that the number of executions goes up just before public holidays so that they have more organs available on those occasions? The whole thing made me quite sick.

wow, like i didnt have enough reasons not to like liver...or kidney pie...and just imagine the smell of a brain fart...

Flesh for sale does make me sick also Sam--in all its many forms.

Well after the f++king nightmare that occured yesterday the moral line is as such.

''Dont help countries ever ever by giving them billions in aid only to watch them f++king test a nuclear weapon''!

North Korea what in Gods great wisdom are you thinking?

The count down begins trust me!!!!!!!!

NiK. (wanders off to prepare).

I apologize for taking so long to get back to this. I've been busy and out of it, etc.

1 - Flesh for Sale - ICK! That falls in the "morally reprehensible" category to me.

2 - I agree Carrie, there's no magic bullet. My personal stance is that executing someone in many cases makes me no better than them. If you're waving a gun in front of me or those I love, then you deserve whatever I do to you in that moment, but that's different.

So many cases have shown up where people on Death Row have managed to prove their innocence. These cases are pointed at as successes of the legal system. I think they are failures of the legal system which were lucky to be caught. What happens if you don't have a lawyer who is good enough (or their detectives are good enough) to find the evidence? I recall a case of someone in Virginia who was cleared when their lawyer accidentally turned over the answering machine tape and played it. A sheer accident without which that person would have been put to death.

Because of cases like that, and my own unwillingness to end another life for anything other than the literal most horrific of crimes, I think the death penalty should be used rarely. Yes… I do think there are places it should be used… like the case of Ted Bundy. He escaped from custody 4 or 5 times, and every time, he went out and killed more. So in that situation, where you can't hold him, and he's a proven future threat to society, and his guilt is beyond question (forget reasonable doubt tyvm)… I believe it's an appropriate penalty.

*waits to see thread sink again* lol