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THERE EXIST FREEDOM OR IS JUST AN UTOPIA?

ARISTIDES
03/18/04 1:29 AM GMT
What do u think?
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ARISTIDES ALEMAN Ars longa . vita Brevis

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prismmagic
03/18/04 6:39 PM GMT
I think I know what your asking or asking but would you clarify?
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Clayton H. Bramlett
::CaptainHero
03/18/04 7:54 PM GMT
Not sure what you are asking. Freedom exists inside people's heads.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
PuMa
03/18/04 8:28 PM GMT
Or just out there heads..
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Nobody's Perfect, And I'm nobody :p
prismmagic
03/18/04 9:57 PM GMT
If I remember right utopia wasn’t that free! It was a separation of the sexes thus came about the Spartan empire.
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Clayton H. Bramlett
Jessiac_3
03/18/04 10:47 PM GMT
even in an utopia there are rules...

do rules protect freedom, or do they take it away?
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Life: Sexually transmitted, 100% deadly disease.
prismmagic
03/19/04 3:23 AM GMT
If not it would'nt be a utopia. it would then be a usurpant society.
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Clayton H. Bramlett
kimcande
03/19/04 7:22 AM GMT
Utopias have two things in common. They are not economically sound and they dont work in a true realistic world. They dont need economics because they assume scarcity. Economists will also say that's why they dont work in the real world. Some take a " Star Trek" approach and eliminate scarcity by assuming abundance. The alternative way to eliminate scarcity is the way that Buddha taught us. WHich is eliminate want. If a society produced people who only wanted necessities and would labor to produce it's needs, there woulld be no need to buy and sell. Examples of utopias based upon this idea that worked are Thomas Moore and B.F. Skinner. Economists will never wory about abolishing scarcity and unemployment. Most us us are too selfish and want too much whether it is a true need or not. We want for only us and not for the good of all of our group. There is realistically so much poverty that the idea of abundance is not an understandable concept to a welfare recipient. Not everyone has high status just as not everyone is ubove in intelligence. In order for some to be above, there have to be some people below. The math of averages say that. We sometimes want what we want when we want it at other people's costs. We have the freedom to succeed but do we care about the " little guy" and carrying him along with us??
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Kimberly Candelaria
prismmagic
03/19/04 7:34 AM GMT
Raaiirree
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Clayton H. Bramlett
kimcande
03/19/04 5:35 PM GMT
Does that mean you agree or don't agree...your " raairre" doesn't say much!!
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Kimberly Candelaria
kimcande
03/19/04 5:37 PM GMT
Do intelligent women scare you Prism???
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Kimberly Candelaria
PuMa
03/19/04 7:25 PM GMT
Rules are there, to overrule..
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Nobody's Perfect, And I'm nobody :p
Jessiac_3
03/19/04 7:59 PM GMT
ooh, good one, PuMa...

oh and by the way...

"Practice makes perfect, but nobody's perfect, so why practice?" hehe
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Life: Sexually transmitted, 100% deadly disease.
kimcande
03/19/04 8:21 PM GMT
PuMa..care to elaborate on ruels are there to overrule??
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Kimberly Candelaria
PuMa
03/19/04 8:57 PM GMT
Jessiac,
that's a good one 2.. I think people just don't realise that they just can't be pe perfect.. they want it... and.. when are u perfect? What exactly is perfect?
Perfect is when u're better as other people? When u're the beautyst person, and the riches, smartest person ever? I don't think that's perfect, because, If i'm perfect in that sense, nobody likes me! Everyone would be jealous! Everyone will hate me, because I'm good at all points.... and, where are u if u ain't got some friends? Nowhere! So u still aint perfect. People never can get perfect!
Many people think: Wow! That person is so beautifull, she's just perfect.. but.. maybe she aint got a house/money/friends... U can ALWAYS have it better..
Take Bill Gates.. he's the riches human in the world... U think he's perfect? Check how he's looking!! bah! so, u can practise u're whole life to be perfect, but u will never make it!
So my sig, isn't right at all :) But I like it anyway =]

Kimcande,
Actually just joking...but there are a lot of people who think that.. like, the government
will make a rule...so... that rule is maked to be overruled...it gives some people a kick, when they overrule the law.. it doesn't make any sense.. but I liked the sig :)
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Nobody's Perfect, And I'm nobody :p
ARISTIDES
03/19/04 9:49 PM GMT
Maybe the perfection is inside of each person,
and the etic is a part of the beauty which absolutly nathing have in relation whit your aspect, or money, or inteligence, or that the person be bigger than others, in the material or
espiritual way.
This is my poit of vew :)
We live in a world where rules are broken by person who don't have etic , and they don't know the mening of this great concept who are very close to an utopia :) .
When you appleid the etic on your life
I think, there begins the Freedom.

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ARISTIDES ALEMAN Ars longa . vita Brevis
prismmagic
03/19/04 10:24 PM GMT
No Miss Kandy: intelligent woman don’t scare me they are more apt to be to the point then spend half the time trying explain there emotions in speech. They actually are refreashing.
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Clayton H. Bramlett
kimcande
03/20/04 12:05 AM GMT
I am refreshing aren't I like a cool breeze on a hot summer day......
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Kimberly Candelaria
prismmagic
03/20/04 1:53 AM GMT
Ms. Candy I don’t know about that. But I’m willing to bet your more like refreshing hurricane of a tropical coast. Full of wind and blowing hard.
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Clayton H. Bramlett
kimcande
03/21/04 5:28 AM GMT
I am not like a hurrican that blows hot air and leaves behind devastation......where did you go to charm school?????Back to freedom..the topic.......as an American, the last four letters explain the attitude....I CAN...we can do so much and say so much and we rarely show an attitude of gratitude.
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Kimberly Candelaria
prismmagic
03/23/04 8:14 AM GMT
Charm School hmmm. That sounds like insecurity to me.
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Clayton H. Bramlett
kimcande
03/24/04 7:56 AM GMT
charm school teaches you manners. That has nothing to do with insecurity. It is called social skills and they are good for you. Manners....... Oh Prismmagic----you can get so huffy....back to freedom or utopia? I have the freedom here to say what I want to and I am exercising that right now.....Good Night now disappear like magic PrismMagic....Poof!!!! Better yet...create a masterpiece and wow everyone!!!!
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Kimberly Candelaria
ARISTIDES
03/24/04 5:47 PM GMT
prismmagic and kimcande maybe..... can be a good friends :)
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ARISTIDES ALEMAN Ars longa . vita Brevis
kimcande
03/25/04 7:10 PM GMT
I am only kidding with this man. He is an accomplished talent. We both are intelligent people and the personal digs didn't rock my world any as I know who I am and what I am capable of. We only kid each other..there is no hate there.....this is not our personal forum and I recognize that ....Aristides you really are a peacemaker aren't you???All is well and thanks.!!
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Kimberly Candelaria
ARISTIDES
03/25/04 11:33 PM GMT
I just love CAEDES net, and , try to have fun here, an maybe do some friends with diferent points of view :)
and i love the peace, and the war....of words :).
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ARISTIDES ALEMAN Ars longa . vita Brevis
kimcande
03/26/04 2:58 AM GMT
Peace be to you brother!!
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Kimberly Candelaria
prismmagic
03/26/04 3:19 AM GMT
Gee talk about social skills. Words ' words ' words' such scares they leave. "Not" HE'HE'HEEEEE. Have a good night Miss Candy.
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Clayton H. Bramlett
mckinleysh
03/27/04 6:26 AM GMT
Freedom is a state of mind.
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As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought for the other fellow. He could be plotting something.
prismmagic
03/27/04 4:52 PM GMT
Your saying freedom is a state of mind. So Shane your saying when you've lost or your job, your home your family been killed put in prison or even chained and beaten for your opinion. That is a state of mind? That is oppression and tyranny.
See I walk in freedom marches. Helped establish rights for woman and children and illegal aliens as people.
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Clayton H. Bramlett
edahs
03/30/04 3:32 PM GMT
interesting. i think true freedom is God-given; freedom is obtained by letting go and it's a conscious unbinding. freedom exists in the real world when we understand our limitations as humans and seek to accept, thereby breaking away from norms and breaking out of circumstances (like if ur being oppressed - what does it matter if u disallow urself from being hurt by it? most ppl who ARE oppressed can't see they're oppressed until someone fights for them - u can be beaten but if u dun surrender, the freedom lies in ur choice to be true to urself, doesn't it?)

utopia cannot exist in this world since it requires a set of perfect circumstances which, in an imperfect world, cannot be met.

freedom seems to lie in following what u believe, giving up the things that fetter u down. whether there exists true freedom is anybody's guess, but it's definitely more imaginable and achievable than utopia.
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~None needs a smile so much as he who has no more left to give~
prismmagic
03/30/04 9:05 PM GMT
Think about it? If freedom were God given, he'd be handing out passes at the Gate.
So since you think that. Does that mean that God has cut back on his duties?
Somewhere done the line mankind has to stop calling out God name to commit his atrocities.
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Clayton H. Bramlett
edahs
03/31/04 2:44 AM GMT
1stly, it's tons easier to do something (wrong, presumably) then say it's for (blame it on) God. most jihads, Christ crusades all turned out that way.

freedom is God-given, in other words, within God's realm for us, we definitely have freedom. if God gave out passes at the gate *grins at mental image of that* then how do we justify that He is a God of justice? He is fair (He doesn't give passes) and He is merciful (that's why we have God's grace) - it's a concept most of us can't comprehend entirely (like me).

i'd like to think when we do something out of our own free will that goes against God's will, well, God allows for things to happen, but we are responsible for our actions and will eventually meet judgment.

i'm not great on theological stuff, but i try to figure things out and if u've caught any loopholes i'd love to hear them.. =)

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~None needs a smile so much as he who has no more left to give~
kimcande
03/31/04 3:03 AM GMT
I like what you said. See what I said on 3-19-04. Based upon what you said, Does God give freedom to non-believers as he does to believers?
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Kimberly Candelaria
edahs
03/31/04 6:14 AM GMT
kimberly: God gives equally to everyone, even non-believers. i reasoned it out that we're all created by Him, so there's no reason y He would love any one of us any less. He doesn't do favoritism and He's pretty fair all around.

prismmagic: <Somewhere done the line mankind has to stop calling out God name to commit his atrocities.> ur right about that one. too many self-righteous bastards doing things "in the name of God". pisses me off thinking about it.
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~None needs a smile so much as he who has no more left to give~
ARISTIDES
03/31/04 7:31 PM GMT
.....then, what you both said (kimcande and edahs) is that God is freedom.
But you said that Utopia dosent exist.
an Utopia goes relationed with the real meaning of freedom,
then God is an Utopia ?
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ARISTIDES ALEMAN Ars longa . vita Brevis
bob_smith1492
03/31/04 9:19 PM GMT
Heaven will be a utopia.
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edahs
04/01/04 1:23 AM GMT
*grin*

in reply to both kimberly and clayton: "Though He brings grief, He will show compassion, so great is His unfailing love. For He does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men." Lamentations 3:32,33

ARISTIDES & bob_smith1492: since utopia doesn't exist in this physical realm, then surely heaven must be a utopia. =)
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~None needs a smile so much as he who has no more left to give~
prismmagic
04/02/04 8:32 AM GMT
In the bible it says, In Gods house there are many mansions. And it also talks about there being much work in heaven. So does this mean God will be my next employer and will I be cleaning all those Dam mansions. My point being, that know matter where you are there is no true utopia’ nor freedom; for to achieve this, it takes true work and it is all at some cost to the one and the many.
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Clayton H. Bramlett
ARISTIDES
04/02/04 4:45 PM GMT
hahahaha prismmagic
I like your phrase:"and will I be cleaning all those Dam mansions."
thats why i just belive in the warms who will convert my body in ground
rich in minerals for the grouth of tomatoes and celey, and then
someone will try my in a italian salad :).
whe are just humans who like to dream whit the eyes open.
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ARISTIDES ALEMAN Ars longa . vita Brevis
prismmagic
04/02/04 5:54 PM GMT
Einstein believed in God or at least a higher power. I for got the exact words he used.
He based his conjecture on his own theories, that energy cannot be destroyed. It can only be changed.
So in that I have the tendency to believe that yes something happens to us. I know for
Sure if we do go some where after death. Or we are just worm food. Either way we are energy and we are converted to something.
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Clayton H. Bramlett
kimcande
04/02/04 7:17 PM GMT
If we are spiritual we believe that we go on in whatever form, if we are non-spiritual, out body merely decays.
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Kimberly Candelaria
ARISTIDES
04/02/04 7:31 PM GMT
SCIENTIFIC PANTHEISM

is the belief that the universe and nature are divine.
It fuses religion and science, and concern for humans with concern for nature.
It provides the most realistic concept of life after death,
and the most solid basis for environmental ethics.
It is a religion that requires no faith other than common sense,
no revelation other than open eyes and a mind open to evidence,
no guru other than your own self.

:)
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ARISTIDES ALEMAN Ars longa . vita Brevis
prismmagic
04/03/04 1:45 AM GMT
Joseph Campbell was a great Mythologist and expert on realign and occult. He was the man that Lucas modeled Ben Canopy after you know OB ONE. Mr. Campbell was asked by a arch Bishop if he believed in God?
Mr. Campbell said; well I'm a Catholic.
The Bishop stopped to think on how to rephrase the question; and then said do you believe in a personal God? Mr. Campbell then said: what need would there be for faith .
Think about that when you try to attach the possibility of a haven as a utopia.
If there where a God what need would you have for faith.
Now that’s a conundrum!
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Clayton H. Bramlett
bob_smith1492
04/03/04 3:11 PM GMT
There is the need for faith because you can't see God. As Jesus said to doubting Thomas, "You believe because you have seen. But blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."
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kimcande
04/03/04 8:40 PM GMT
We don't see the killowatts when we turn on the lightbulb but we do beleive that we will be able to see when we hit that switch
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Kimberly Candelaria
prismmagic
04/03/04 9:30 PM GMT
No there isn’t a need for faith. There is a need to believe in some thing so to govern our self’s and to feel not alone in this world or universe. We are a fragile species; with out a reason to exist and a governing purpose;
we would fall. Our intelligent and our emotion is the only thing that separates us from other species.
But I will give the animal kingdom some credit at least they do not destroy there own Spices for political gain or profit. They do not us the name of the Lord for a reason to commit genocide against another culture or race. Which is sad to say, every culture in the history of man has done this.
See man from before the crusades to the present day times has, and still is defacing the name of God for his own selfish needs hell or own president Mr. Bush uses the name of God to invoke Christian votes and support achieve his goals. He talks of Gods wishes for this country, and the world as if he has breakfast with him every morning,
If God truly exists do you really think he looks at man kind with any bride or Joy.

Utopia I don’t know, heaven as utopia hopefully. Will see.
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Clayton H. Bramlett
ARISTIDES
04/08/04 3:56 PM GMT
:)
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ARISTIDES ALEMAN Ars longa . vita Brevis
edahs
04/12/04 2:11 AM GMT
perhaps it depends on which kind of religion you are talking abt clayton, since there exists so many religions that spawn from the belief of God.

Faith is not something i centre my life on as a means to govern myself or to find companionship or meaning to it - we have friends for that don't we? faith to me is a reciprocation of God's love. He first loved us and created us, so that we may love in return and faith exists on many levels; hebrews 11:1 states "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

i guess i'm trying to say that the point of faith is not for ourselves, it's a response to God. one may believe there is God, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the person will depend on God, or to live according to God's will. many people say there's a God, but they don't actually align their lives with God - in that sense it's like a faithless belief and about this God says "because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth."

we are different from other species not only because of intellectual and emotional impulses, the christian pt of view would be that we are the only creature created with the knowledge and innate desire to worship God.

see, you're asking since we have God, why would we need faith? simply because God requires a willing response from us. He could easily force everyone to listen to Him and do what He wants and there wouldn't be so much strife. But He doesn't because He wants willing participation from us. that's where faith on our part comes in. *shrugs* all this is IMHO, so correct me if i'm wrong?
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~None needs a smile so much as he who has no more left to give~
prismmagic
04/12/04 3:54 AM GMT
Edahs. faith is bassed on the laws of God. But now theres the problem man changes God and his Laws to fit his needs. Not staying the the course of God. So Who is God. What is God, And did we creat him out of need. Thats the question.
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Clayton H. Bramlett
edahs
04/12/04 6:51 AM GMT
i'm not sure i understand what you mean precisely by "faith is based on the laws of God"...care to elaborate/explain? =)

i agree that man changes God and His laws to fit his needs! definitely definitely definitely. *grin* it's like fitting God into a box, forgetting that God is infinite.

did we create God out of need? sounds like my fren asking me: why do u believe there's a God in the first place? and why YOUR God out of all other gods? personally i can't give a straight answer, but that i believe and i guess it's God's grace that i believe. i think this is what's meant by faith as well, some others will choose to call it blind faith. but blind faith stems out of believing and following something without knowing what kind of God you're following right?
*grin* it's a fine line we all tread on.

do note though, that if u follow the NT, Jesus pretty much did away with the OT laws, or rather, that He further extended Moses' laws to be applied today.
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~None needs a smile so much as he who has no more left to give~
ARISTIDES
04/13/04 10:26 PM GMT
God is freedom? or chains?
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ARISTIDES ALEMAN Ars longa . vita Brevis
Radiant
04/14/04 12:09 AM GMT
Ironic i believe in Faith yet, I don't believe in God...
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LEGAL DISCLAIMER: None of the facts or statements by me may bear the slightest element of truth and could all be made up of complete bollocks due to the fact that I am mentally dysfunctional. The views represented by me may not be the true opinion of anyone at all EVEN ME!
edahs
04/14/04 3:52 AM GMT
ARISTIDES: God is freedom. =)
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~None needs a smile so much as he who has no more left to give~
prismmagic
04/14/04 11:12 AM GMT
ARISTIDES I guess it depends if your wealthy or poor. If you’re poor you need something to believe in. If your wealthy you tell people what to think and believe in. And you really have a need for God.
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Clayton H. Bramlett
ARISTIDES
04/14/04 5:42 PM GMT
yes....in god we trust.............. :),
it depends what means wealthy and poor for you
it depens what is God for you, and what is good for you
it's subjetive don't you think?
maybe i need some money.....hahaha...a Mercedes :)
But i don't want to belived in a Racist God who kills inocent
people for money :).

No thanx :).
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ARISTIDES ALEMAN Ars longa . vita Brevis
prismmagic
04/14/04 6:50 PM GMT
God is Raciest though. That’s documented throughout the bible. Or should I say that peoples who wrote the bible were raciest, At least until Romans got involved and created the Roman Catholic Church and they saw the profit in The Christ teachings; turn thy cheek, love thy neighbor. Think about it? The Romans now have a way to control the peoples. No more crucifixions, no more betting, no more threats. Just control them with shame, guilt and love. And then offer a place that is better in death then in life. And then you pretty much have them by the Physiological balls. And the best part is, you get them to pay money to get into heaven. If it weren’t for the Catholic churches promoting of the Christ he may not have made it into the heart of Christianity to day, they where his best PR people.
Far as wealth, that’s based more on power, money and political status.
And if there truly is a God, I really don’t think he would be too worried about are petty differences as he would or our lack of understanding in our grand future.
Again!
Utopia I don’t know; Heaven as utopia, hopefully, well see?
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Clayton H. Bramlett
prismmagic
04/14/04 6:53 PM GMT
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Clayton H. Bramlett
ARISTIDES
04/14/04 8:12 PM GMT
Agree wit you my prismmagic friend :)
If you have read some Greek and Roman mithology (i sopuse you already do ) you wil discover to much similitudes with catholic religion :) , as clear as cristal water.


....then God means mind chains, isn't it?

but, if you belived in mankind?...
I still do.

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ARISTIDES ALEMAN Ars longa . vita Brevis
prismmagic
04/15/04 9:44 AM GMT
All religions are tied to each other, for example astrozoalogy was the bases of all religion. They determined the need for a God or Gods for the sake of humanity and to control primal instincts over 4000 years before the Egyptians at the beginning of the cradle of mankind. Another example is the father, son and the Holy Ghost, was based on the mythical story of Horuos, Isis and Raw. A lot of the religious bass and there meaning are taken from the Egyptian and Greek religious beliefs. So what can I say we are all tied by a single string. Believe it or not it’s true.
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Clayton H. Bramlett
ARISTIDES
04/15/04 3:47 PM GMT
:)
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ARISTIDES ALEMAN Ars longa . vita Brevis
ARISTIDES
04/17/04 4:05 PM GMT
....just an utopia... people like money.
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ARISTIDES ALEMAN Ars longa . vita Brevis c u caedes :)

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