Wow, I can see that +purmusic is a grudge-bearer, Cindy. He takes no prisoners. Please, don't go in PM, he is becoming interesting and funny (not haha), it's not disturbing at all. At least not for me.

Milka, I must say, I dig your sense of humor, lol...i.e.

"OK, you wanted "Song titles"? No problem. Here are some I like.
Black Horse and The Cherry Tree, Don't Sit Under The Apple Tree, Everything Is One Big Christmas Tree, Fake Plastic Trees, Little Willow, Old Pine The Cherry Tree, Thorn Tree In The Garden, Tie A Yellow Ribbon Round The Ole Oak Tree, Weeping Willow...... There much, much more."

Dont forget “Lumberjack” – this Monty Python tune is a spoof on lumberjacks. The song in conjunction with the comedy skit is hilarious." Try and photograph that one!

I talk to the trees
But they don't listen to me . . . . .
:)

OK, Paul, but first I have to find some lumberjack and shoot him. It's difficult, I'll have to go in the woods. Funny or not, I'll shoot something/somebody as the title says. And here I am in the contest trees/song title. Beware, folks!

Yes, Lyn, me too, but that's not the problem. The bigger problem is that the people don't listen neither. LOL

I feel like I've read a book and have not even looked at the topics yet... Okay, just looked and someone actually put up "Not Trees" as a suggestion? Wow. I know I just got out of the hospital but I have a tiny portion of sense and respect that they left in my brain when the extracted Little Timmy Tumor.

I think Akeraios list speaks volumes. A title as "Landscapes" can certainly be interpreted, but really, it screams photography.

What happened to "Blue Rule of Thirds?" Wide open for anything.

People was the hardest contest I've judged yet in my short career here - but look at the ratio of entries.

Look at the title of this site; "Caedes desktop wallpaper," not Caedes Photography (and I love photography remember), not Caedes CGI Haven and not Caedes Demands Digital.

I am all about democratic voting but the stats reveal a problem with attracting members outside of the photography realm. I am here because I like the people and the honesty of their work. We are a privately owned, moderated site and as such the VB was removed in an honest effort to promote creativity....

I'm on a roll here. Personally I would moderate the site suggestions but that is not very democratic, is it? We should moderate ourselves as a democratic community with our "Site Gods" watching lovingly over the wonderful community of artists they have assembled and do what they can to keep things on track. THAT is a job I would not enjoy - just look at the grief Les has taken in this one thread alone.

Let's just please try to select topics that lend creativity over a variety of mediums. Tolkien-Esque was the last one I submitted to because of the way my brain works. All mediums work within that title and the ratio reflects that.

So come on folks. Lets us grasp our brushes, pens, shutter releases and mice and get creative. We are artists!! We are not English majors!! We are not all photographers!! We are Devo!! lol.

Seriously, let's just have fun - I don't make any money at any of this. I only make friends and get to dabble in some creative art that I would not otherwise be able to play with.

In all respect,
Michael

I agree with Mike, everybody should suggest a topic. Why are so passive, why don't you suggest anything and when somebody suggests a topic, you want to kill him/her. I have an impression that you are waiting for somebody to suggest a topic and then you have a reason to argue. I wouldn't say that you are afraid, because nobody knows who is suggesting what. Except if somebody "stupid" like me "admits guilt" and gets critics an anger from the others. So, come on, let's rock, or was it rumba? LOL

Here are the last four PMs I received:

Personal message from cynlee [ 26/10/11 17:23 ]:

"Well, thank you, Moses."


Personal message from cynlee [ 10/08/11 11:19 ]:

"You, sir, are inhuman and the biggest hypocrite I have ever had the misfortune to encounter. Your ears should be ringing because you are not very well thought of in so many corners.
I am sorry that life may not have been as you would have liked, but that is still no excuse to be an a**hole to everyone!
Sincerely,
Cindy"

Personal message from cynlee [ 30/06/11 21:01 ]:

"And by definition an opinion is:

1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. "a personal view", attitude, or appraisal."

And you certainly have many of those....".


Personal message from cynlee [ 30/06/11 20:44 ]:

"Nice of you to end on your terms only. *** was upset from the get go. And my comments to you will end when I don't have any more to say to you, which I don't."


I've edited a couple words in the above PMs. As I was reminded on this discussion thread that some words are 'not nice'.


Discuss further in a PM?

Why would I, given how you conduct yourself behind a 'veil of secrecy'?

@ Milka:

The whole point of this, is this:

If left to the 'majority'.. the artists that do their work in the the C.omputer G.enerated. I.mage field ... would..never..get..a..say in these contests.

If.. the number of artists on each side, 'non-photographers' and that of 'photographers' was equal.. sure.

But, the numbers are not.


I believe 'we' (meaning; all members/this community) should work towards keeping these contest topic selection polls fair for all.

And.. if at all possible, although this is my personal opinion ... challenging.

So, the question is.. do 'you' (speaking generally here, no one in particular) wish to see more of these artists leave the site?


How would 'you' feel about the contests if for the next while the Contest topics were:

1) Grand Julian.
2) Use the Splits Variation to produce a flame.
3) Two transforms, and two only.
4) Use a night time atmosphere in your piece.
5) Ice World Terrains.

And so on.

How would 'you' feel? Still think it is fair?


Respect? Sure, I can do that.

As the saying goes though.. it is a two-way street.

I guess the member who said you are a bearer of grudges was right. Those are old PMs. Too bad you never took any of them to heart. Ask the membership and you will find that you are alone in being the only individual that I ever felt less than cordial towards. Yes, I am not the only member who has had unhappy dealings with you but at least I told you privately and upfront. I believe you did exactly as I knew you would and made a public spectacle of yourself. Do you really think anyone will want to tell you anything in privacy any more knowing that you harbor resentment and are saving their words to call forth in revenge when your ego has sufffered a blow? I really do pity you, Les. I asked you to keep it private , but then you always have it your way anyway, don't you?

Sorry, I didn't read the first part, those are personal messages with Cindy, and if you don't know, I know what "personal" means. And you are not fair for that.

I read the second part, I agree, you suggest what you want, the others will suggest what they want and we'll decide together. Togetherness, remember? I didn't say you should be the only one who should suggest.

It's pity, in English you never know when you mean you as singular and you as plural, so there are misunderstandings. This time I didn't mean you as Les, but you as Caedeans.

You think that somebody would leave the site because of the contest? Oh, be real. Everybody is free to post whatever he/she wants.

And, you speak about respect that should go two ways? So, what is your respect for Cindy? In what direction goes that "respect"?

Hypocrite.

STOP
1.to cease from, leave off, or discontinue

PLEASE

1. If it is your desire or pleasure; if you please

It would seem you have no intention of doing so, but I am going to ask you one more time. No one wants to see or hear you or I air dirty laundry and it IS being VERY DISRUPTIVE to the intention of this thread. In times past, the thread would have been pulled (by you) for far less than these horrible personal attacks, so look who's calling who a hypocrite. PLEASE STOP!

This is not a game. There are no winners. You are not worth having a further discussion with either publicly or privately if you are going to act like this, behaviour most unbecoming for someone who considers himself a moderator.
The End.

Again our "professor". I know what it means, you don't have to "send" me there, there are people who have university diplomas. Be careful with your behavior, this site has members from all over the world. Don't disgrace your country in front of us non-Americans.

I didn't read the messages, I have my honor. And please, we are not your students, have respect, as you like to mention that very often. You act like an intellectual, you hide yourself behind "high" words, but I can see your complexes. Sorry to say, but you are a big disappointment for me. I am happy that you are not a typical representative of your country. So, I'll go on liking and loving my Caedeans.

Thank-you Les for acknowledging my suggestion respectfully. Much appreciated. I understand and agree that it belongs in a different thread because it is not precisely for this topic. But posting personal messages IS on this topic?! really? Maybe if you showed Cindy and the others the same respect you ended up showing me in our personal messages you wouldn't receive such personal messages or negative responses. So why don't we try to start over...
with possibly explaining to the photographers what would be some good topics that would be conducive for all artists, since that seems to be the primary subjective. Please explain in more detail of why it would be conducive for CGI artists, because if other photographers are like me they haven't the slightest clue of what it takes to do a CGI image or what would be a compatible topic for it and photography.
Let's all try to be nice to each other and say things that won't offend. Please. I appreciate democracy but for it to be successful the leaders in congress must be diplomatic. The mods are our congress here. So Les? or any CGI artist? Will you please explain so some can have a better understanding of what is needed to create some balance in the topic issues:

Clearly this discussion has taken an unfortunate turn for the worse. I have no interest in discussing blame, there is plenty to spread around.

What I do have an interest in is:

A) Calling for everybody to take 5, let go of what has been said above, and return to a calm discussion, and

B) Supporting the call for ideas to be CGI artist friendly. Not simply doable, but friendly, encouraging. Many categories are just vastly easier to capture in photography, to an extent that is simply not possible without a longer lead time in CGI. Personally, I haven't taken the time to draw something in quite a while, but I will tell you that it took me no less than 8 hours to create even the most basic of the images you will find (and the reason for some of the less-than-successful) in my gallery (except for that paintbrush one). Most often, that time was spread over several days as I did what I had the time available for at the time. It is easier to deal with execution if conception is an easier translation, with more immediately available to mine.

So I support this call, to take into account the CGI artists on our site, who are indeed a minority here, and make them feel equally welcome and supported as members of the community.

The primary way I suggest doing this is to think about what a CGI artist might be capable of doing, and how hard it would be to do. What concepts can you think of to do in CGI, if you were a CGI artist? How well do you think those would fare against photography of the same subject?

My file has finished saving and I have to go back to making pretty toyboxes at the moment, but later, I will post some ideas for contest topics that I think would serve for "instant mining" and creative thinking (if one wants to) on both the photography and CG sides.

P.S. As a start in "thinking about CGI artists" - I ask that you take the time, to look at the Fractals gallery under abstract, and think about how each category in the current topic poll might be interpreted as a fractal.

You don't have to be capable of drawing the lines yourself, just visualizing the end result, based on what other images in that gallery look like. I'd take it as a personal favor from anyone who would be willing to put in this time, and discuss their conclusions.

I added a new topic ... "Common Ground". It's one I've had in my head for some time ... no pun intended to the above discussion, so DO NOT take offense.

Common Ground ... Area of agreement : something mutually agreed upon, especially as a basis for negotiation.

Some synonyms of Common Ground ... overlay, intersection / intersecting, edge, join, connection, similarity, & commonality.

I will let everyone know where I'm going with this topic once the next contest is complete.

For now ... some food for thought.

My brain works in mysterious ways ... sometimes. :-)

"My brain works in mysterious ways" ..So does my wifes but I just tag along..R.

Could not the whole debate and subsequent argument be settled by alternate polls for photog and non-photog members. Contests still open to all .
Suggestions to be made with due regard by both factions for all inclusiveness.
To qualify to suggest and vote topic a minimum of 10 images uploaded in the area be required.
No discussion to follow - just a reasonable explanation of suggested topic.

Lyn, it looks like Geri's pretty busy right now and hasn't had much time to do stuff on the site, so I think that whatever we come up with, we have to essentially address it as a community working with each other and the tools in place.

I think however, that it would probably help for such suggestions to be framed positively. Rather than "Oh great, I see this going the way of all the other contests, the CG artists are out in left field with most of these topics!", something that says "I think that would be hard for a CG artist, I like that idea, but can we modify it to something that would work for them." or "Can you explain how you see that working for CG artists?" - for all we know, they may have an idea the CG artists can run with, and they should be given the opportunity to explain that.

Okay, posting some ideas I think here that work for both sides, pushing creativity also.

One thing to think about is whether translating/representing the topic you pick requires a CG artist to be detailed. Detail is great, but the more detail needed to portray something like a landscape (unless you're going with a basic kid's drawing here...), the harder it is.

"Breaking Boundaries" - in photography, this can be portrayed via things that cross lines, or simply things that break up a scene in an unexpected way. A flower poking through snow, a basketball player in the middle of a jump, a child with a hand in the water - breaking the surface of the water, a car driving off the road, there's so much to mine there. For CG - simple enough to create "shapes" and have other shapes visually breaking the plane of those shapes. The better you carry off a "story" in the breaking, the better.

"Movement" - photography - capturing something in motion, conveying the motion of the thing. CG/abstract - again, the flow of the lines, and how they move.

"Adornments" - photography - okay, what is it? Is it the snow on the tree branches, the shop window, a pile of jewelry, a shot of a woman in profile showing an almost abstract shot of the line of her earring across her jaw, the extra touches on a table place setting, a stencil on a wall, etc. CG - for a fractalist, it might be the light bursts, for an illustrator, it might be a line of paper dolls and an outfit in the process of being clipped on, others may wish to render gems, or simply images that call attention to specific shapes that are "adorning" the background plane of the image.

I got more but I'm stopping there. When you get me on a roll... (no butter please... 8•P)

Of the twelve listed topics at this point I see eight that could easily be interpreted across any artistic medium - including music if that were available :) The name calling, finger pointing, public PM's (???), and accusations don't help matters at all.

I was keeping this somewhat quiet, but I just got home from the ICU at Vanderbilt hospital where I had an Olfactory Neuroblastoma removed from my brain (just under it fortunately) through my nose. It was not fun and it is not over. I am not giving up due to my wonderful wife and supportive son. What I am doing is sitting here typing a message to a community that I have a lot of respect for. PLEASE stop with the arguing over selfish issues!

Temps are obviously high (duh!), cultures involved on Caedes are widely varied, talents are ranged from beginners to professionals. We can and we must work together for the sake of art's growth. Yes, photography, paint, charcoals, colored pencils, Bryce, Apophysis, and,... and,... can all contribute to the positive growth of everyone here - even the dang flamers can learn something if we get along, could we not?

"Common Ground" seems a perfect topic for reconciliation. I just don't know if I currently have the energy (or have just too many recovery drugs in me) to pull this one off). But I KNOW I don't have the energy to see this place fall apart. Let's just please have some fun on Caedes.

Cynlee and Les: You are both wonderful artists - different, but great talents in both of you. Please start your relationship here over. It's the art, not the fart - unless the tone of the fart is pleasing and I mean pleasing enough to get over the aroma. :)

I have now earned the new blues name of Mike "Tumorless Head" Willie.

I see several of the posted ones that could work also - obviously there are always going to be some posted that aren't fully thought through, so it would be nice if we could discuss what could be done with a topic that both sides could participate in, and perhaps place just as big an emphasis on taking care in considering the other side when voting for a topic.

Trees - which is winning right now - would seem to be one of the hardest ones to translate on the CG side, even though there are possibilities.

P.S. Yikes Flim, feel better fast!

Thanks Anim, things are looking up. Waiting on path results but prognosis is good so far.

There are some good topics here. Looks like Trees has got it this time but that's okay. I was speaking more to the future. I'm not very good at any of the art I dabble in here, I just have fun and enjoy getting feedback from some of the real artists here. Such potential.

"Trees - which is winning right now - would seem to be one of the hardest ones to translate on the CG side, even though there are possibilities."

????

:) Examples -
CLICK

Unless you misspelled trees and used threes :)

Right Lyn, that's exactly what I mean. It *is* doable - but look at the level of detail needed to draw a tree - or at least any of the better representations there. To first visualize and then have the time to execute a concept within 3 weeks is harder than "Flowing Motion" or "Common Ground" or "Squares" would be.

Maybe it makes more sense if I break it down this way - Every line that goes in a different direction, every dot or series of dots is another item of detail. The things that create differing surfaces, texture, lighting - every bit of those is another item of detail in order to create something that is recognizable as a tree. Your link is a good visual representation of how much detail - how many lines and dots and shading differences - is needed to create "tree". Obviously, in general, the higher the level of detail, the more time it takes to execute.

When you compare that amount of detail for trees to the other topics, does it seem to you to be one of the easier ones to execute for a CG artist? Is it as easy comparatively as it is for a photographer? There will always be a difference, I'm just talking about comparative effort. If we considered the topic "Deserts" that would be harder for many photographers due to issues of location than trees are. While Deserts would be much easier for a CG artist (so much can be done with gradients for shading over a broader expanse), I would not consider that as accessible to photographers on a comparative scale. Although man - the images we could get from a "Deserts" topic. I drool in my imagination. lol. Anyways, I hope this gives a better understanding of what I'm looking at and seeing when going through the topics.

Doesn't take much to create a computer generated or illustrated tree. It can be as simple or as complicated as one wants to make it or represent it. I remember drawing trees in early grade school. It wasn't elaborate. It has a trunk and branches at the top and maybe some leaves. If a child can represent a tree, why not a CGI artist or a fractalist? I just don't see how it is that complicated. A few examples Abstract, computer and fractal art are more representational than photography by nature. You are saying trees are too much of a challenge as opposed to Les' idea that trees are not a challenge.

Personally, I do not feel that the simplicity of drawing that is achieved by a child's drawing is a good basis for what is enterable in a contest as a composed and considered work of art.

I'm pretty sure I just made up the word "enterable", but since it works, it is now a valid word in the English language.

HERE is a fractal tree from my gallery. Sure, so do something better than a child's drawing. Shouldn't be difficult. Many fractal trees.
Computer generated trees.

Yes, again, I did not say it was not doable. I asked to consider whether it was as easily doable for computer artist as it is for a photographer on a comparative scale of how long such a thing normally takes each one.

I am not denying that it is possible to do, and that is not what I am addressing.

I'll bid you all good night for the evening. I'm off to watch a friend freeze his rear off in a race in the morning and I'm ready for bed. 8•)

Ok. It's doable, but in answer to your question to consider, I think it is as easily doable as some other topic that might be suggested. To me a tree is a more visual and tangible concept than say "breaking boundaries". As a photographer, I think I might be able to handle concepts such as "breaking boundaries", but I think that would be open to a plentitude of interpretations and maybe even a little more difficult to interpret for a photographer. I suppose there too it would depend on the photographer. There are so many images that are fractals or computer generated that break boundaries all the time.

As to the time factor, that depends on the artist, fractalist photographer, etc.. Photographers do and can spend a lot of time on one image though it may not seem so and I know that I have grown frustrated trying to create with Mandelbulb and Apophysis because I couldn't develop exactly what I had in mind or it took a lot of time to render.

I introduced some examples only because it seems that the choice for the next contest is headed in the direction of trees and the links would give some an idea of what is possible or has been done without having to google them.

This is all getting too complicated for me to follow!
First page - Main Galleries - 12 images - nine feature trees.
One of the best (imo) Abstract trees features on the first page of Abstract Main Gallery.

From an ousiders view it would appear to be a popular CGI subject, but many of us do not understand what is involved, just as some imagine a photograph is no more than a click of a shutter.

A caedes wallpaper search 'computer trees' shows many more. Even searching 'computer desert' shows many with trees included.
I am not pushing trees, I did not vote for trees but I am a simple soul and just dont understand the kerfuffle. If trees wins and someone does not like the subject they do not have to enter the contest - there will be another one in a few weeks.

I favour 'concepts' rather than 'things' in topics but like everyone else I get the chance to vote, and appreciate all suggestions.

For my idea for alternating topic suggestions(above) I did not envisage requiring any changes -surely that could be organised without? Most of us can count whether we have 10 images in a certain category? -and we are identified when giving the explanation - if the mods decide they do not qualify the topic is removed.

So much for my brilliant suggestion ! Perhaps it is just toooo simple - like me.
:)


I would be happy with desert - none in this country where I live but could fake one with a camera - Desert = "Arid land with little or no vegetation"
Does not have to be sand and mirages -

Kerfuffle? lol

Nice discussion, that's what I like and liked before those insults. I agree with you, Desert? We can fake it, like many other things in life. LOL
I have one question. Why do you always take care so much about those non-photographers? Nobody thinks about the photographers how they are going to use their cameras, what would they shoot. Have you asked yourselves how many things there are that the photographers can't do, can't shoot opposite the non-photographers? But that's the contest about, a challenge for everybody. Let everybody finds his/her way how to enter in the contest.
I don't know how it is in the States, but in my country I have to "fight", to adapt myself, for example, if I want to find a job, they are not adapting the contests and the jobs for me. Why are you trying to give to some of the categories something on the plate, ready and done? I suggest a topic from my point of view, naturally. Should I argue and be mad if a non-photographer suggests a topic from his/her point of view? Of course not.
But OK, I won't suggest any topics any more....... Or, on the other hand, if I do, I won't tell. LOL

Bless you. @Cindy. (Koca beat me to the post :)

In a community sense I think it's just considerate to try to make it accessible for everyone. For instance my son is in a wheelchair. He can't get in to everywhere but most places try to accommodate him the best they can even though he is a minority. It won't likely be possible for every contest but I still think we should try to be considerate to all.

Sorry, Lisa, I hope there won't be another hot discussion because of that. LOL

Have a great weekend.

Oh no, lol! ;) Absolutely not! No offense taken here, just giving a peaceful opinion :) You enjoy your weekend as well~

There are of course CGI trees, and then there are the ones that you would want to enter a contest with, to try to win at least. This image for example, took 12 hours to render. This is only the final render. I seem to remember doing about 10 renders before I got the lighting right. It contains several million polygons, and >1,000 objects, each of which has to be placed, moved, rotated, and generally adjusted to get a natural feel. It took me almost a month of working evenings, and weekends with overnight renders.

Yes trees are doable, in a simple sense, but not in the timescales of a competition to any great extent.

I could of course look out of my window, take a picture of a tree and load that onto my computer. Total time, with a crop and adjustment, say 10 minutes.

Life is not the same for different genres.

Of course good photographs also take time, and judging from posts in Water, some only just make it in time as well. I suppose it depends on whether you want quality or just easy quantity.

Is it so difficult to make only a CGI tree work or every other topic? If it's so long and painful process, why are the CGI artists are doing that? And, did you explain all this so we fell sorry for the CGI artists or to admire them?

By the way, I respect and value every afford and hard work, but not always when they are talking about that all the time and complaining. When I love something, I do it with love and keep quiet. Nothing personal.

I wish Caedes would go back to the old way of doing contests :) These new contests are so short and plentiful, they don't feel as special! I remember winning the "draw a frog" contest and being sooo excited! Haha, mind you I was still at school then hehe - winning anything was exciting :P

As a digital painter I never really enter any now because I don't have enough time to prepare an entry which is a shame :(

However, on a positive note - I don't really have an issue with topics like "trees"...it's a simple subject which a lot of people will take literally, but there's plenty of room for exploration!...

...As long as the entry is 'loosely' connected :) - at uni we've been given some really drab-sounding projects but it's amazing how a group of people can produce such a variety of imaginative and original ideas! I mean, aren't we artists supposed to be "creative" under any circumstances? x x x


Caedes people: Uh who are you???

Yeah it has been a while, sorry :P x

I am not complaining, merely explaining for people who have not worked in CGI. Trees are not so bad, depending on the models you have, but take a topic of self portraits, that totally excludes fractalists and CGI artists, by definition.

I don't complain, as I can work in photography, illustration, cgi and fractal mediums, so I can usually enter something. Personally I find conceptual topics more stimulating and open to interpretation.

It takes only a little thought to choose a topic that is open to all. As has been said earlier, there are many song titles that allow tree images to be posted, but it is open and can therefore be used by all artists as well as being a little fun as well. However, trees seems a little more constraining, although some ideas have sprung to my mind. As with the water competition, I suspect we will end up with lots of images of trees, and we have quite a few of those being posted anyway.

As it says on the welcome page "We strive to provide a welcoming community for artist participation and sharing of high-quality artwork". This does not mean raising barriers for any artist, photographers included, but to work together to create an environment where all are able, and encouraged, to participate to the fullest.

I agree with you, Chris. Thanks for your comment.

trees seems a little more constraining......

So, we should never have trees as a topic? Or anything literal for that matter? Literal is either too easy or too hard depending on what medium you are using? That is what I am getting from this discussion.

You can make a CG image or a fractal and call it whatever you want or whatever idea pops into your head when you look at it.
You can call it a tree or an old shoe if that is what you derive from it. Many of the fractals and abstracts in our galleries don't necessarily resemble what their titles imply.

As Milka says, " Let everybody finds his/her way how to enter in the contest". That to me is the basis of creativity, not what someone tells me it is. We are free to create whatever we choose. The topic or theme is the suggestion. If the voters like the way you represented the theme, then you get the most votes and win the contest.

Well there are as many varied posts on the subject of trees as there are varieties of trees, it would seem.

Of course not all topics will be suitable for all mediums, one cannot expect that. The course of events in this thread seems more to bring home the point of having a little more forethought in suggesting topics. And I am absolutely fine with that.

I wish only the best of luck to all who enter. Hopefully no one will borrow my idea of Three Trees sitting near the Blue Third of the image's area :) Kidding really.

I miss you all.

Not such a bad idea, Michael. As good as any other, actually! lol

From what I'm getting out of the feedback here maybe the issue has a little more to do with the time element than the topic? Not to disregard the difficulty of a literal topic but if there was more time would CGI artists feel like it was more fair for them? Trees is obviously going to win this time, can we run the contest longer? Give more time to create?

Just an observation, but trees has been the leader in the polls for sometime now. I began thinking of tree possibilities when I saw that it was likely to be the winner. You do not have to wait until the click of the gun to begin the composition.

Time certainly is, as I am rather busy elsewhere, quite limiting. That and talent. I have almost finished my entry for the Surreal contest, and I suggested that one.

"Of course not all topics will be suitable for all mediums, one cannot expect that. The course of events in this thread seems more to bring home the point of having a little more forethought in suggesting topics."

Yes, thank you. That is the primary thing. That and voting on them if possible. 8•)

It's not that nothing literal can ever be done in order to take CG artists into account, simply that some literal things are much more complicated than others. Trees happen to be one of the most complicated, because there are just so many small fine details needed to represent them. Houses, deserts, silverware, shoes, butterflies - all of these have wider expanses of space that can be played with, and stylizing can be reduced to a few simple lines, rather than still needing many lines even for a stylized version. Literal things do tend to leave the fractalists out however, so yes, I do think that if possible we should steer away from them in favor of things that embrace everyone. If possible. Not a demand, just a request. Sometimes fractalists will be left out, sometimes it will be those in the wrong hemisphere for a season. Let's just pay attention and try to make sure we're not proposing or voting that way too often. That is all.

koca - taking the time because I'd like to see the CG side, which is a minority here, encouraged to feel welcome and grow. The photographers are the majority, and so things tend to be very photography based. So - putting out there as the quote I pulled from FlimBB above. As for why there are so many trees? Because they are complicated! It's an achievement to be able to draw a tree, and people seem to think they're nice to look at.

Lilu - yes, the lead time is the issue more than anything else. This contest system was set up to be basically self-sustaining and automated in the process, so we can't extend this contest, but if other people would like more time, I would say that extending all contests to 5 weeks might also help others as well. While that's something *caedes would have to do, I think he might be able to do it quickly. So - any other takers or interest in that?

Lyn-my apologies, I did not realize that you were talking about a self-moderated agreement. It would really have to be by agreement of those here, who are interested in participating, since we have no way to enforce it. So - any takers?

This is Lyn's proposal above:

"Could not the whole debate and subsequent argument be settled by alternate polls for photog and non-photog members. Contests still open to all .
Suggestions to be made with due regard by both factions for all inclusiveness.
To qualify to suggest and vote topic a minimum of 10 images uploaded in the area be required.
No discussion to follow - just a reasonable explanation of suggested topic."

Any takers or interest in doing that?

"To qualify to suggest and vote topic a minimum of 10 images uploaded in the area be required."


I'm not sure I totally understand that part. A minimum of 10 images uploaded in what area? Contests? Topic? What?

If contests, that would require someone new to have to wait 10 months to make a suggestion since these contests last approximately 4 weeks each.

I think a longer time would allow everyone to create better entries, wether it is allowing photographers time to find a better shot or CGI and fractalists to get to grip with a topic.

As for alternating. I don't see that as practical. Apart from which, I feel that separation will only create more rifts in the community. It is not hard to work together.

I'm not quite sure I understand the proposal clearly either. Does that mean every other.... no... never mind, that's not it. I don't understand.

corom9 beat me to the post this time ;) Okay. I did kind of get it. I personally wouldn't be offended by alternate polls. But if it did create more rifts I wouldn't be for it. It sounds reasonable to me but I don't know how others would feel. It seems to makes sense with the time issues as well.

O, come on, are we shooting for an Oscar? They shoot the movies faster than your suggested time. OK, don't start "shouting", joke. I agree whatever the majority says.

I believe it was a need for 10 votes to be considered a topic of consequence. Makes sense to me. It should at least give us more variety, and lengthening the contest duration would allow for a medium with slower techniques in that particular topic to compete a bit more fairly.

Truly, all it takes is an extra moment of thought to say to oneself, "Gee, a topic of cake pictures would really be bad for a fractalist," or "A 2 transform limit would make no sense at all for the best of photographers."

Compassion, understanding, respect should about cover it, heh?

Let's create!!! Let's appreciate!! Let's judge it! Then vegetate :)


EDIT: new topic of; "My Best" should really bring in some interesting variety ;)

Here is a an idea, I will nominate a topic I think will be interesting. Other people will do the same. Then we vote and see what wins. Participate if you want to. Have fun with the winning subject. It does not need to be any more difficult than that.

Common sense prevails

That's how I felt in the beginning too. But now I understand that we are trying to have a little consideration for the minority and some understanding of why certain types of nominations can make it more difficult for some to participate. It's nice to try to include everyone.

" alternate polls for photog and non-photog members. Contests still open to all .
Suggestions to be made with due regard by both factions for all inclusiveness.
To qualify to suggest and vote topic a minimum of 10 images uploaded in the area be required.
No discussion to follow - just a reasonable explanation of suggested topic."



"I'm not sure I totally understand that part. A minimum of 10 images uploaded in what area? Contests? Topic? What?"
_____________________________________________________

I meant in photography or non photography area, uploaded images.
You would qualify to suggest a topic as a non photographic member in alternate competitions if you had a minimum of 10 such images in your gallery.
It was just a possible way of giving the non photographic people a chance to make suggestions that would specifically suit their requirements in alternate competitions. Everyone would still participate.

I don't see how it could possibly create more rifts than already exist.
It could be self governing - no big deal - and could be quite interesting.


As far as I am concerned the status quo is adequate if we all understand the situation - if I don't like a topic I don't enter, just enjoy others' efforts.

Actually I had suggested having separate contests early on, possibly alternating photo and CGI contests but it was suggested that there may not be enough CGI artists to constitute that.

Me too Lisa, but concede that it would likely not be practical given the discrepancy in entries.
My 'alternate' suggestion was for topic poll only, not actual contest participation.
:)

Oooohhhh :o Okay :) Have to think about that for a bit...

So... does that mean that every other poll would get to be voted on by CGI artists only? Maybe I'm still not quite understanding.

I would have to agree that alternating between photography and CGI would only cause a rift to grow deeper. Probably better to just let things move along and progress as it will. I suppose if one doesn't want to enter a contest, one doesn't have to. They are still fun to watch and vote on for me.

Looking forward to all them three trees though :)

Yeah, me too. I agree with FilmBB.

How about Yin & Yang for a topic? or Yin vs. Yang? Not necessarily the black n white symbol, but what it represents.

"So... does that mean that every other poll would get to be voted on by CGI artists only? Maybe I'm still not quite understanding."
________________________

No Lisa , not at all :)
The only difference would be that they make the suggestions.
With due regard for photographers of course, just as photographers would do the same when it is their turn.

Which is what should happen now.

Anyone could vote on the topic, and enter the contest.
CG members could then be sure that at least the successful topic would ideally suit them every second competition, because they would have chosen the subject.

FlimBB - it would not be alternating contests, just topic suggestions - giving an equal opportunity for both.
The only controversy appears to be about the suitability of subjects for CG artists - so they would have their chance to make their own suggestions without being outnumbered by photographic orientated ones.

:) I fail to see how any rift would be widened

but . . . bring on the trees :)

Yin and Yang is a good topic - requires equally balanced sides -which is exactly what the numbers of the two factions here do not represent :)

Very good points, Lyn. Kudos!

I love the idea of a Yin & Yang contest! My mind is running back and forth with ideas.

In other news: I have a question. I believe that most of the "issues" can be solved just by people being interested, talking, and wanting to work with each other rather than formalized structures (that can't be enforced anyway, because it still requires the active participation and good will of those here, and the agreement of those *not* here). I think that perhaps the easiest thing to do, is for anyone who wants to, to put up a topic on the poll, and then for there to be some discussion below for what the possibilities below are for each genre, and see what comes from the discussion.

All of us grab CG artist friends and ask them to weigh in, and hey, grab photography friends too. All of us do our best to keep things on an even keel and not attack each other and just calmly explain why we don't think something works, or do think that something will work. I'll commit to paying attention to those discussions and participating (since I know I haven't been active here much before, but since it's something I clearly have an opinion about, it's my job to put up or shut up).

Hopefully the voting and the future suggestions will become a better balance just for having those conversations. Does that work for most here?

Works for me :)

For me, too. :)))))

Yin and Yang would be way cool!

It's not about favoring photographers or CG artists. A good contest topic should challenge everyone regardless of the medium. The problem topics are those that are challenging in one medium and easy in another - like "fractals". I wasn't in favor of "abstracts" for the same reason. It's just that most such topics are photographic. But the underlying issue is the lack of inspiration/creativity/challenge in many topics suggested.

I don't know Hannah, I tend to agree that some topics are more challenging for everyone, but I think it's up to the artist to take the ones they might find boring and uninspirational, and find a creative slant that makes it not boring. Even when faced with several of them in a row - because some people will find certain topics more inspirational and challenging that others won't. For those who don't, I think there's something there for them too. Having to think *harder* in fact in order to challenge yourself to think further outside the box, and come up with something unique and different. I think that twinkel's winning entry in the "Water" contest is a good example of that.

It highlights water, without being a large body of water or anything that you might traditionally think of as a "water" image, and I think that as a winning entry that also raises the bar.

Heehee, I think a shot of a frustrated man/woman surrounded by towels and buckets next to a busted water bed would be a pretty good water contest win too, lol. Think I'll pass on that one and go with the Yin-Yang, bing bang, shallo-wallo-wing-wang.

lol!

lol @ Mike!

When I was learning about writing, and in particular poetry, the most difficult task was attempting to make a trite or boring subject NOT boring, that is, creative and original. Speaking strictly for me that applies to the visual arts as well.

If making a boring subject interesting were a requirement for entering and judging that would be fine. I like Twinkel's piece and voted for it, but I had to look through too many uncreative pictures as well. And the creative ones aren't necessarily rewarded in the results for many contests. I'd just like to see creativity as a prerequisite rather than an extra.

Hahaha! Hannah Joy, be joyful, enjoy and don't start another "nice" discussion. There are 11 days in front of you, be patient. I know that's difficult for some people, but wait, you'll see many beautiful and creative works. I don't know why, but the people are sending their works the last day, in the last minute. But, their prerogative.

I hope you are not doing this in spite of something or somebody. As we said, respect for everybody, measure your words. Don't be a naughty girl. Don't "kill" the people in the very beginning. If this is boring for you, you have many other options.

By the way, I am looking forward to see your entry for the contest. Or, it's easier to criticize the others?! Now I am impatient. LOL

@ Hannah - yeah, but everyone has a different opinion of what is "boring".

@ koca - I found Hannah's words to be measured. She's expressing her opinion and she's entitled to it. I don't think it necessary to put her down, and read "intent" to stir up trouble for expressing it. Doesn't it suffice just to say: "I don't think trees are boring."?

There was a loooong discussion that the trees are not boring, I didn't want to repeat myself. Sorry, I don't think she measured her words, I would be insulted if she criticized my work with those "high" words.

So what is it that you would find inspiring, what creative/challenging topics do you suggest? What do you think would be inspiring to others? (puts the mouse down and backs away slowly...)
;)

Since you asked, a quick look at the last 10 contests gives these suggestions (not counting the ones that were chosen):

Visualize the Sense of Hearing
Color Symbolism
Song title
Squares
uniformity
Rule of Thirds in Blue
Red hot
The Five Senses
Glory
Entropy
Liquid
rework
Heat
Strength
Truth
I love red
Soft Light
Imagination
fragments
Creative Manipulation
Lines
Symmetry

That's 22, and I'm sure there were some I missed.

BTW, I don't think trees are boring either as objects. I'm quite fond of trees (but not to the point of hugging them). It's just as contest topics on a mostly photographic site that they're not likely to inspire much creativity (speaking from past experience).

Sometimes there's a problem and something needs to be said about it, and some people will be offended just by the suggestion that there is a problem. It's hard to get across what I'm trying to say without giving specific examples, which would be a lot more offensive. So I just speak generically and everyone is free to take it personally and be offended.
But I'm not doing this because I want to spoil anyone's fun. I hate discussions like this. I find them exhausting and discouraging. On one side I sometimes wish I hadn't bothered. But I joined this site because I was impressed with what I saw 3 years ago and I've seen it decline and I can't just watch that without sometimes trying to counteract it a little.

I suppose I should have stated that my last question was meant to be in response to your other statement:

"But the underlying issue is the lack of inspiration/creativity/challenge in many topics suggested".

Sorry, I shouldn't have assumed it would be obvious and didn't think about it being 9 questions back. I wasn't meaning to ask you 'what has already been suggested' I wanted to know what you personally thought about what particular topics would be helpful in reference to your concerns. And my last sentence was an attempt to lighten the mood :)

That's understandable to try to correct what you feel is wrong.

Right on, Hanna...I can relate to everything you just said above...even the part about it being exhausting and discouraging...and after all your efforts it's so easy for people to miss your point or misunderstand altogether...there are things I'd love to add to your comments but pressed for time atm...will try to come back later with some additional thoughts.

If I understand correctly what you feel the problem is~ maybe a good solution to that might be to give plenty of good, informative and inspiring critiques. Share your expertise to help others learn and grow in a positive way. Inspire others to do the same. ...or have I misunderstood? I have come back to Caedes only recently but that's one of the things I loved about this site in the past was that I could learn so much. People were helpful.

I was intending to come back here to post some of my comments/suggestions etc. on a few of the above issues but it's my birthday and frankly, I don't wanna work that hard right now, lol...when I do get around to collecting my thoughts, I will likely post to THIS discussion board.

Can't We All Get Along?
Geeze...It's just Trees!

I've suggested that topics be non-literal. I also suggested on this poll that using adjectives might help. And on this poll (near the end of the page), I just looked through the dictionary a bit. I think that's a reasonable number of suggestions for one person.

I think that's a great suggestion, Hannah... My American Heritage dictionary is chock full of adjectives and so is my Thesaurus...

Oh dear. I opened my dictionary at random, and the first adjective on the page was:
"reniform: shaped like a kidney".
Somehow I don't see that one getting many votes ...

Maybe 'heart-shaped' would, though. :-)