Referring on my photo white crocus,Iaccept Jonos'comment but not in this way,there are to many references on personnal pages on pictures, if some people wants that I don't post photos anymore, they may let me know, I take what I find beautiful and Caedes.Mods have to make th selection not the photographer.If I receive to many points like some are saying it is totally out of my hands. Please your reaction. It is the first time this person gives comment I think, why just on this one and not on cherry-blossoms p.ex. thisis also recent (04.10.2004).I don't want to go in personnal discussion on this matter.

Jon only wanted to say that we need to be more critical when looking at a picture, I think... being yours or others.

It's true that we are often (myself include) in a non-direct way influenced by the author of the image when we are voting or/and commenting. it can't be helped I think. We are a community after all, and you are very present on the site, always polite and respectfull whith the others members. It is not really difficult to give goods comments on your pics... I have yet to see a really bad shot coming from you!^^

Poeple choose to vote and comment, if they want to give you a ten then they are perfectly free to do so. Like you say, you're not responsible for it and if someone resent you for it, just ignore him...

don't take Jon comment at heart Joost. He really mean no harm. And please, no! don't stop posting photos!

Joost,
A few things to get straight:
First: I really do like the picture I put the comment on, and all of your work
Second: I didn't mean to cause offence when I made the comment and I hope I have not done so.

I do not resent you for your good marks on your pictures - indeed I am honoured whenever you comment on one of mine as I realise and accept that you often take better shots than me. If this seems like a personal attack, it has been misenterpreted. The image discussion boards are there to discuss the image, and I placed my certain opinion about the picture. If you wish me to delete this comment then I will do so. I simply meant to say that, it my opinion, your earlier pictures were better, and that you could try taking some more photos around the 'Walking Lane' series. I would have sent the comment as a PM, except that I can't seem to access your user profile to send a message. I also did not want to start a discussion board topic, as I believed the message was relevant to a few of your images, and not the entire site. Also, when I say that we should be more critical of images, I did not mean only yours. I often feel that some of my pictures are too highly marked, and that people vote on a whim and do not consider truly what they are giving an image.

I hope that you continue posting images on caedes.net, and hope that you do not hold this comment against me.

To be honest I do agree with Jono to a degree. Sometimes I feel that people give high votes because of the author rather than the image. I'm pretty sure people have done this on my own images a few times. It's not really a problem as everyones opinion is different anyway, so you should make up your own mind and ignore the c-index sometimes. But it is worth noting and I think Jono was quite diplomatic in his comments.

On the other side, I often noted that excellent authors like Samarn or Klas receives sometimes really bad votes... although they posted excellent works!
Maybe an explanation: the vote is open to everybody. Can a member or a visitor, who don't take any photos, have a critical spirit on the photo's art? And also, can a member or a visitor, who don't create abstract or computer pictures (like me), have a critical spirit on the digital art?
I can't answer for the others, but since a long time, I decided to vote for photos only...

I hope I never have a critical spirit on anything I choose to look at. The truth is just that, I'm choosing. Constructive suggestion is what I thought was the goal here. I do not take or submit photos however I do comment on them and I feel qualified to do so as far as my personal eye and appreciation for beauty, clarity, etc. goes. I am in the general public and if I were to purchase photos or art, I would do so because I appreciate that I cannot produce that photo or art myself. I would think in that case I would be just the kind of customer that the photographer or artist is after and that my opinion could matter somewhat.
If I question the quality of a photo, I feel certain someone other than me will bring it to the author's attention and I do leave it at that unless I feel safe with the author. I will make a suggestion privately or directly depending on their style in handling this. If I do not understand a particular style as with TG or blurred backrounds, I will make an effort to see the best in the work, and leave my comments at that.
I had some folks get upset with me here for saying near exactly what Sam did and not comment or vote on my images any longer. Good authors whose opinions did matter to me. However, they too have had their flops as we all have.
How I would love to put all the responsibility for my terrible works on the image mods and trust that they just wouldn't upload it at all and save me embarrassment. Then again, some I felt were terrible, made it further than some I felt rather pleased to have on my own desktop.
There's much to take into account here. The author, the nationality (where words can be misinterpreted), the style, etc. The bottom line is we're all going to get our toes stepped on. Artists are a sensitive bunch. Joost, PLEASE do not stop submitting. Your works in my favorites are important to me because they are good quality and your heart went into them. Your works that aren't there are in someone else's because we are all so different. You are vital to this community.
Pierre, I welcome you to comment on any image of mine. I would be honored and/or helped. I respect your works. To this day, the clay figures photo still brings me great joy and a great start to my day. Probably will always be an all time favorite of mine on here.

Thank you for this very beautiful contribution to this forum, BJ. I must say I agree with all you wrote. Personally, I can't give a 10 or a 9 to a fuzzy picture, even to the most beautiful photo of the world. It's the message of Jono, I think.
Thanks again :-)

Generally I use one role of thumb when deciding to comment: "Comment only if you can do better", now this seems a bit dumb, but it seems to work. You can't really tell a builder how to build if you don't know anything about building yourself, now can you.

As for comments in general, if you see something that could be improved, feel free to add some constructive critisicm... but only give your opinion of the image, not the artist. Rate the image according to the image, not according to how much you like the author, or if you have a score to settle with the author.

Just my 2c.

Thanks to responding to this forum everyone
You've captured between you just what I wanted to say
I know I can't do better than any of you guys, and I was not trying to judge anyone - just expressing my opinion of the picture

Jon

KJ, I agree with your rule of thumb as far as critique might go.
Jon, I'm so sorry this happened between you and Joost. I think that Joost accepts your critique and I believe you admire and appreciate Joost's contributions, but as your comments went on on that particular image page, it did address a problem universal to the site and not specific to Joost. I think that is what Joost was requesting you do with your questions about image ratings rather than have him be the focus of it all.
I spend much time leaving comments. If I bother to look and vote, I will try to make the extra effort to comment. I have never heard from some folks and accept it will always be that way whether I leave them 50 compliments or not. Eventually I will probably stop that extra effort with those authors so I have time to get to those who have taken the time to encourage me along, offer helpful suggestions, or have just used the basic manner of thank yous. In that respect and if enough people feel the same way, the numbers for a very high quality image can suffer. That's when who the person is and has been on this site does matter in the numbers. That's community.

The rule of thumb works somewhat, but sometimes a person who is not always the most talented or well experienced has soemthing good to add...sometimes a fresh perspective is needed. I comment on mostly all types and although I know I'm not the best at any of these mediums, but I feel I have something to add. I think the use of comments isn't much of a problem on the site.
However the issue jon was tying to bring up is that of undeservedly high C-indices, which I agree is a problem at times. However, there's the question of how to fix it, while still voting (since it is mandatory)...
I think quite a group of people vote too highly for images that they don't have the expertise to understand what's wrong...(therefore if it's a cool image that I don't think i could tell good from greatness I give them a 7). Also as a standard I give away very few 9s and fewer 10s(so if you get one this really means something)...I don't know if following this-type voting schema would work and keep good images in the galleries or not, but I think it's a start for some.
Btw if anyone comments on my images I really do appreciate it, and it really does make me happy. However, although I do write the thank yous on my images, I don't usually write back a thank you into your profile. So don't be offended and certainly don't think I don't benefit from your comments.

Flatter me, and I may not believe you. Criticize me, and I may not like you. Ignore me, and I may not forgive you. Encourage me, and I will not forget you.
--William Arthur Ward

Exactly

I have only given about six "10's", and getting a "9" or "8" from me is no easy task...
I have a pretty fair little system where I start with a "9" and take a point off for any "flaw" with the image, but I will give it an extra point for originality. :c)

I take my conclusion.

Importent and good discussion, but I agree it belongs here in the forums. I'm still poundering the flipside of the question that Pierre brought up, that I and some other (IMHO much better artists than me) get surprisingly low ratings at times.

The conclusion I draw is different from Pierres altough I might be wrong. (I sure hope so at least...) I feel it has less to do with the form of art and rather much to do with the author. If you are popular you get good ratings and if you are not popular and people for some reasom don't like you then you can get stinking ratings... I'd be only too happy if you could convince me that I'm wrong.

Maybe I'm less popular since I feel the quite oposite in the case of voting and commenting on images that you could not create yourself. If it was a question of professional work (as in making money of it) and criticism I could see the point. But its not the case here and I don't need to learn and use Bryce or some other 3D app to comment on TRACYJTZ lovely work and give my opinion on what I feel about it. And even if I can't master abstract art (or whatever) it doesn't mean I can't appriciate it or leave suggestions of what an artist might try to do.

Truth is spoken from children, fools and drunkards. ;) Being a fool in a certain field of art could mean you have a unique opertunity to see things from a perspective maybe not ordinarily used and thus contribute to the growth of many of the wonderful artists that are active here.

That's how I feel.

For me personally it's a big turnoff that I see some of my work unjustly being underated. I dont' know if I should take the images off the site but I don't feel I can use the c-index as a good pointer whether or not to keep them here (since it's so inconsequential). The only thing that could keep me from caring about low ratings would be if I could see who gave me what ratings. It's not so I could avenge the perp, but more because an anomymous, faceless "You suck!" is far more disturbing than if I get to know it "face to face". I would say it would be more honest that way...

Nuff ranting for this time. ^_^

Cheers to ya all. :)

kjh000, I don't know exactly what is going on in people's minds when they give one of your decent images or even a good one a bad rating, but I do have an idea and I believe it applies to all authors as well.

I think people whether consciously or unconsciously almost "vote to a curve". They have seen your best and vote off of a comparison of that. For instance, I absolutely love your "Helixes". When I see "Winter Aconites", even though it is a very quality image, I don't think it is nearly as good as "Helixes" and therefore (hypothetically) I would give it a lower number than it deserves based off of previous exceptional images you have uploaded.

Just a theory... =/

P.S. You're definitely one of my favorite artists on this site by a lot. (Maybe it's because I have a preference for clear quality macro shots... ;-)

A theory: When regular members log on, they will tend to see if the other regular members/people they know have uploaded any new images, and look at those first, gave comments and vote for them. Once they have been through those people they might wander through the new images gallery if they have time, and may not see or vote on the images uploaded by less regular artists. Therefore these artists recieve more votes from first time members who may tend to be more critical or less thoughtful when they vote. Hence the images that are not viewed by as many regular members recieve lower ratings. Sound reasonable?

Anyway, I think the important thing to remember is that the c-index isn't that important. Sure it makes you feel good when you get a high rating, but it's only peoples opinions. I have said in the past that some of my images which have been my favorites have recieved very low ratings, while others which I spent little time on and still don't really like at all have 99/100. And Klas, you are still one of the most popular authors on the site, so you can't be doing too badly! :-)

Having read all this and wow it took me some time, I will be brief(ish)......... I am a new member, and as such hope I can bring an unbiased view. You obviouisly all take this VERY seriously, and ...no problem there, but as someone said earlier art is such a personal thing, and the voting as such is excactly the same. When I started I voted high, but having seen most of the work is of a higher standard than myslef , I have only given 6 7- 8 's , very rarely 9 and as yet no 10's. What I am trying to say is that my voting is entirely on the emotional aspect of an image, although I agree with Pierre, something as basic as focus (when it looks as though it should be sharp) could not get my 10.
It really is no good giving everybody 9 or 10's or the votes are meaningless, which is why I agree with Jono. I want people to say this is bad or I would have done such and such or whatever. Thank you. Louis

Hehe, Louis and Sam. I guess you guys are right. We do take this too seriously. I understand what you mean Sam but I was very regular contributor here for some time. And my experience is that people hang around and watch the new images gallery rather much.

I see the point in your theory Matthew. I believe it's rather much like that. (And I agree that the Winter Aconites is not as good as Helixes.) But it's a certain touch of randomness in it. I feel allmost like peoplo don't even watch the images before they vote. And by that I mean watch in full rez. As a matter of fact that is the normal way people seem to do it. (And yes I do have a prob here... How can you vote without wiewing the piece as it's intended. Thumbnails is just meant to be orientation, right? Or am I wrong again?

Take my shot "Patchworks" for instance. I love the texture and play of light and shadows in this piece and feel very happy about it. It's one of my own favourites among my work. It has got a 49 c-index rating and only about one third of the people that has "viewed" it has actually seen it in full size. (It was some time since this one was uploaded but the numbers have been quite consistent in this regard.) I'm not so happy about that. I know it's vain. I don't have a great problem admitting that. It still feels wrong. can this system really help me (or the image mods) to select the images that should be deleted or kept in my galleries... Not as it is ATM for me at least.

Anyhow. I feel that the point about art and rating being very personal things by Louis are a very good one. And I know I really shouldn't be as touchy about my stuff... ^_^ I'm only human though. (Last time I checked at least. =] )

Cheers. :)

Klas: Your "Patchworks" with a 49 c-index has been moved trough a permanent gallery.
Therefore, an ImageMod estimated that this picture deserved this promotion...
Matthew: I really agree with your theory...

Thanks Pierre. ;) I actually had not checked that. I guess it feels better knowing that. :) I'll not stretch the flipside of this discussion futher now i guess. ^_^

[Edit: Sorry, double post]

I don't think it's quite that you go and vote for those whom you know and expect things I think that has more to do with which one's you comment on...ie->you comment on mine I comment on yours...but I think the more important thing is which pics get voted on. The truth is that in order to get a large number of people to look at an image you have to do some "attention grabbing"(like a bright picture with lots of contrast). It is very true that some images are always going to be missed especially with all the growth in caedes.net, but there's not much that can be done...if you enjoy the image and a few others did too, be happy with that because that's all you can do. :-/