Now that I realize what the c-index is, I feel like i'm either critiqueing to high... or there are some people who just downvote every1.
I usually find that I vote fairly, and 9 and 10's don't come out easily... but at the same time i've only given like 2 out of the 100 or so i've voted on less than a 5.
Don't change! It sounds like you're taking the time to honestly consider and rate every image, and not everyone does that no. Keep doin the job right! 8•P
I agree with Cat, even though I have my own reservations about the voting system, keep on going the way you are.
For myself, I begin on a starting point of 5 and go from there, regardless of the medium/genre. That way everybody remains on the same level, in my book, and adjust from there. And, like you, I rarely end up giving out scores of 9+ or 3-.
Just stay true to how YOU feel an image is rated. Peace.
I always try to balance the light with the heavy - a few tears of human spirit in with the sequins and the fringes ~
Bette Midler
~ ~ (My GALLERY, such as it is.) ~ :o)
Sounds like me...I maybe hand out couple 10's a month!! Really, if it's a 10 it better really knock me off my butt!! I don't think I've ever given a 0...I mean, if someone took time to upload something it must mean or say something to them and I re-look a little harder at it and then give it a 2. 8~O
I like Curt's idea!! And Cat's comment is spot on!!
I base it on the rules of 10's of course...should the image be a c-index of 70, then I vote it a 7...if I think it should be high 30's then I'll go a 4...and so on and so on.
I do pretty much the same thing that Curt does, start out with a 5 & then work my way either up or down from there. It sounds like you're trying really hard to be fair & objective & that's all we ask. ;o)
As I understand it, which is hardly at all, the calculation of the c-index takes account of each voter's pattern of voting. So there's an attempt to adjust votes up or down if voters tend to vote very low or very high. I've assumed that this means that so long as you apply the scale in some consistent way, the algorithm should take care of the rest. I don't know what happens if your voting pattern changes over time or if you suddenly decide to apply the scale differently, though.
I start my c-index calculation by making a quick decision about whether the image is above average or below. That put it at a 10 or a 5. From there I apply 2 points for composition and 2 points for technical work. Thus if an above-average image is well composed the image gets 2 points for composition which makes it an 8. If it needs to be saturated or the contrast pushed, but the creator made good use of depth of field I'll give it 1 point for technique. That puts it at a 7 - the c-index I apply.
I do this, because when I first joined Caedes.net I found myself influenced by by my personal feelings toward people, and my ratings were biased because of it. By creating a formula I eliminated personal biases (mostly).
By the way, bcbird, there are people who vote 1's and 0's on every vote, because they want to protest Caedes' voting booth system. I find this childish and hurtful, and I really wish these people would just go elsewhere.
"By the way, bcbird, there are people who vote 1's and 0's on every vote, because they want to protest Caedes' voting booth system. I find this childish and hurtful, and I really wish these people would just go elsewhere." (regmar)
Don't forget either, the people who will conciously vote 0's on certain genres of art too. Fractalist (which I have noted a big drop in subissions) and floral photographs, are two that come into mind. They can take their rattles and go home too, IMHO.
I always try to balance the light with the heavy - a few tears of human spirit in with the sequins and the fringes ~
Bette Midler
~ ~ (My GALLERY, such as it is.) ~ :o)
I can't help but wonder...how many people have to complain about this, or at least acknowledge the 1 and 0 attack vote issue before it's acknowledged and addressed?
so,consider this not an aggression, or an attack on the site, nor it's keepers (most of whom i feel play fairly) but rather, a challenge. look, and ask around. a fair quantity of people feel something (albeit different 'something's) could and should be changed.
for starters, i think the vote count or data shouldn't be hidden in a shroud of secrecy.
if the reason is that people will see 0's and be upset, then perhaps, maybe, just maybe, you might want to do something about it. but hiding info...c'mon, that's a page out of Nixon's book...
damn...i thought i threw that soapbox away... *shatters it*
Hi,my name is Rob..ok, so I'm not the greatest at replies and comments. Sorry. For anyone needing to contact me, my email is back up in my profile. >> my cluttered mess of a gallery
I always try to balance the light with the heavy - a few tears of human spirit in with the sequins and the fringes ~
Bette Midler
~ ~ (My GALLERY, such as it is.) ~ :o)
hmm - cant say as I have noticed any signifiacnt drop in submissions from any sector - indeed some areas - rips in particular - seam to be on the increase :-)
for example, there are at least sixteen flower based submissions on the first few pages of the new image gallery alone despite the fact its not exactly flower weather at the moment.
Hi,my name is Rob..ok, so I'm not the greatest at replies and comments. Sorry. For anyone needing to contact me, my email is back up in my profile. >> my cluttered mess of a gallery
I always try to balance the light with the heavy - a few tears of human spirit in with the sequins and the fringes ~
Bette Midler
~ ~ (My GALLERY, such as it is.) ~ :o)
It's a great site. I seem to have issues there though. After I log in, the whole page is blank. so, it makes it somewhat difficult to comment there and thank people for commenting on ones works.
I don't pay much attention to the "C-Index"...being that a few of the compositions that I have posted that commanded high "C's"...are to me, some of the stupidest things I feel I've ever created...
"Let us forever cherish and hold sacred these moments...for it is our undoing ...should we forget..." -William Shakespeare ... Visit Jhihmoac's Gallery
Don't some people have flower weather at the moment? Not everyone who posts is from the Northern Hemisphere! Besides, there are greenhouses and so on, even if you ignore hard drives.
Actually, the weather had become so weird here that a lot of the flowers have become confused and are trying to bloom now which is a shame because they are likely to get caught by a cold snap and come to premature ends...
The southern hemisphere is just the same as the nothern one - they are affected seasonally just the same - only the tropics remain uniform (ish) in their seasons. A pumpkin on a magic carpet? i'll have whatever he's been taking ;-)
"for example, there are at least sixteen flower based submissions on the first few pages of the new image gallery alone despite the fact its not exactly flower weather at the moment. "
There are parts of this planet where it is most definitely flower weather. I could say there seem to be a lot of snow pictures when its not exactly snow weather at the moment, where I live.
Come to think about it ,I have never seen anyone say "oh no, not another snow picture' as has been said about floral images.
Sometimes 'down under' feels like another planet, perhaps a good reason to continue posting.
I'm off to look for a magic carpet - I already have the pumpkin, I thought it may turn into a coach like Cinderella's but nothing doing so far.
If there is truth in the fact that here are those that regularly vote low depending on genre or type of picture then that is appaling, although it would explain a few anomalies.
If people can not take the time to vote responsibly then better not to vote at all.
BTW my previous comment was said in fun. If there is ever a shortage of flowers photos - be warned I have hundreds - what a scary thought lol . Many of them lurking around here would deserve a 0 or a 1 so perhaps I will restrain myself.
I think that the voting should remain confidential as it is. Before it was not confidential and it created a lot of problems. I don't want to know who voted what on my images, the C-index is enough for me.
When I vote, I try to remain impartial, regardless of the medium used, and try to judge it on its overall quality, originality, technicality, composition and lighting. I find it immature and mean that some people would vote continuously 0 and 1 because they don't like the system. We are adults, for godsakes. Why not express ourselves in a thread?
I am a fractal artist, among other graphic work, and I find that my fractals usually have low C-indexes. I was told by others that it is because some people don't consider this art, like we just click and the image emerges all complete. It is not an automated process.
I wish this situation in general about the C-index would improve, as a lot of people are not happy with it, myself included. Josette
Actually, it's fractal images where I've seen the drop. By the way, has anyone seen moeaction, sharsimagination, razorjack, or igmac around lately. I miss seeing their work in the New Images gallery.
I always try to balance the light with the heavy - a few tears of human spirit in with the sequins and the fringes ~
Bette Midler
~ ~ (My GALLERY, such as it is.) ~ :o)
I have a grand total of only 8 abstract/fractal offerings in my gallery but this does not prevent me from voting considerately and (hopefully) intelligently on the abstract/fractal work of others, just as I expect the same regard for my efforts. If anything, I tend to spend more time studying these images. Sometimes I do not at first fully understand them (its easy to say 'I know what I like and I know what I dont like) and have come to have a great respect for many fractal artists here. I am aware of the effort and talent that goes into their creation, having 'dabbled'.
Hopefully it is also understood that effort goes into the creation of a photograph as well. Why all genres cannot be respected for what they are is a mystery to me. We all have to learn, it takes experience to improve, and we can not all be instant experts.
My sentiments exactly Lyn...
"Why all genres cannot be respected for what they are is a mystery to me. We all have to learn, it takes experience to improve, and we can not all be instant experts." Very well stated.
Which is one reason why this issue really sticks in my craw. Especially when you can go through similar threads as this and find where people have come out and stated that they have voted low because an image was a fractal or floral. I personally would hate to continue to see excellent artists leave because of this.
I always try to balance the light with the heavy - a few tears of human spirit in with the sequins and the fringes ~
Bette Midler
~ ~ (My GALLERY, such as it is.) ~ :o)
Umm, are we accusing the c-index for scaring away fractal artists? True artists arn't scared away b/c of a c-index.
Also, some people see fractals as a...like say you open up paint and spend 5 hours on a drawing. Most likely you're going to get a 30 c-index tops. It's just a bad style; most people dislike it. Why would they hang it on their wall (it's b/c the style doesnt look good) Fractals are similar, many just don't like the style. So let me twist things a little...
I'm sick of seeing images made in Paint being vote low. Seriously, they deserve higher scores. They put in so much time and effort and they're technically perfect. Why, some of them should get an 80:100 and be placed in a fine art exibit.
However, since the c-index is taking votes from the general public; it's what the rest of the world *likes*.
(did that make any sense or was that a terrible example?)
But Noah, true artists CAN be scared away if there is truth in the premise that their art is being deliberately voted low because some one 'doesn't like it',regardless of any other consideration. No one in their right mind is going to leave because of a few low scores (there would be few of us left if that were the case) but consistently low scoring is another matter. Some voters have publicly admitted they do this - perhaps there are others. Voting low is not a crime - unless it is for the wrong reasons. I do not think 'not liking that sort of thing' is a valid reason. I personally do not much care for pictures of cars but I do not automatically vote low on them - they get the same consideration as any other. My evaluation of any type of image may not be in the expert category but the least I can do is make it an honest and impartial one.
You give a description of the way 'some people' see fractals - good grief I did not even know what a fractal was when I first joined here - but you don't have to be a rocket scientist to learn how to appreciate something different - it opens your eyes and broadens your mind. The different types of art are like the people of this community and of this world - all with their own qualities and personalities - all needing to be appreciated for what they are, not for what they aren't.
im not sure where this 'fractal drought' thing is coming from - from what I can see there has been nearly a thousand new fractals posted this year already - granted thats not as many as photographs but then there is only one fractal category and more than 30 photography sub sections - you do the math.
I really haven't seen that much of a drop in fractals / fractal artists over the past year. Like Eve, when I first started posting on this site, I didn't have a clue what a fractal was until I started creating them myself. Honestly on the start I would vote them low basically because I did not understand them along with the time & effort that went into creating one. Fractal's were foreign to me at that time & after seeing alot of amazing fractal's on this site, I decided to experiment with that form of art as well. I believe some people just don't understand this style of art or at least try to understand it. As for the other's who deliberately vote very low ... well I better not say it here.
As far as the c-index goes & I have mentioned this on other threads ... personally it does not have any merit to me. All it tells me is the concensus of an image is average, above average or below average. What I may think is above average ... the next person may say it is below average or vice versa. Everyone see's something differently in an image & what draws them to it. The main reason I am here is to learn & improve my skills. What is beneficial to me is constructive criticism. It is so easy to say "Nice shot ... great job" & I see that way too often (even on my own images when I know there could be definite ways to improve). I am guilty of this also & just don't take the time to truly examine an image like I should unless something specifically stands out like graininess or poor clarity.
I do have to bring up flowers though & I think Eve for one would agree with me. Most people think flowers are an easy subject ... that is not the case. Whether capturing them indoors or outdoors the lighting has to be perfect, you have to worry about shadows, outdoors you are dealing with a breeze or wind, & close-ups take alot of practice / expertise. I can take 30 shots of the same flower at different angles & have only one or two turn out. Flowers can easily appear underexposed or overexposed depending on the lighting conditions & their color. I love images of flowers & they always make a pleasing desktop.
Thought I would give my opinion & I hope people do not continue to vote low just because they do not understand a form of art. Everyone needs to take a look at the whole picture.
The voting system that is now in place is geared towards what is popular. If fractals are consistantly getting low votes, that usually means something. Sorry of the facts do match up with the ideal world.
We *could* change the voting system around (selective voting by gallery) so that it would be biased. Fractal appreciators vote on the fractal artists and so on. Honestly I'm against this method after I've reconsidered.
*btw, my comments sound strangly harsh...i should like, whats his name, oh yes, Mr. Trump, in a way, but not really*
well if you do a quick mental calculation of the galleries you'll see that fractals get a score on an overall average about 5% more than photos - so again where is this coming from?
I have to agree with ::farmgirl_pml -
flowers are not the easiest of subjects, although occassionally there is the odd unexpected shot that disproves the rule.
'Someone' once commened here that anyone can pop out and snap a picture of a pretty flower and expect it to do well - that is about as true as saying anyone can press a few keys and produce a good fractal, or get in the car and drive up he road and snap a mountain. Anyone who believes any of that is in cloud cuckoo land.
As I mentioned before in this thread I have hundreds of flower pictures that have not made the grade by my own judgement. And landscapes, and fractals. Most of us only post those which we think are derserving of appraisal - and all of us deserve that to be done honestly.
I agree that they are many different tastes for art. It's true too that there come differents trends, and that can blind us in our judgement. What I find really bad though, is that some voters admitted voting deliberately low on some types of images, working their issues through sabotage and meaness. That shouldn't be swept under the carpet. I submit even if my images get low c-indexes, because I have confidence in my work, regardless of what is popular for the moment. That's the reality of the art world, and it's tough.
"What I find really bad though, is that some voters admitted voting deliberately low on some types of images, working their issues through sabotage and meaness." I've heard similar things from others.
So you're saying you've seen people do this? =P I highly doubt people go around 'sabotaging' images out of 'meanness'. It's probably more of a lazy thing.
Noah that has been said on other threads with regards to the "C" word.. some members have said straight out that they vote low the excuse they give is "I dont understand computer generated images or photography".. or "I dont "do" that kind of art"... so if that is not "mean" what is.. I think its pathetic that someone cant pick out at least one thing on an image (and yes that goes for fractalists that say the same thing about photography).. I'm sure they can pick out the colours (unless they are colour blind).. or if they like the design/scene.. but to blatently turn around and say "I vote low" or "I give it a 0" because its not what I do or understand, obviously have no respect to the other artist who are either learning and are wanting help or others who uses that particular genre....... this is a great site for learning and expanding your creativity and for people to say things like that definately puts off the new artists who are here to improve..... said my piece so i'll shut up now
A waste of your time??? what about the time those artists have put into their art.. that wasnt a "waste of their time" a little respect to "their time" to fairly look at it is not a lot to ask..
Thought someone mentioned the "C" word and I rushed over to this thread.
But ... you guys fooled me.
There's no talk about "C-ookies" going on here. >:o\
I'm taking my properly chilled glass of milk and going back to the offtopics. Hmmmph!
p.s. Jacqueline ... Noah is quoting the author of one of the threads that Keith provided a link to ... take a deep breath ... that's it ... relax, and here ... *hands Jacqueline a cookie ... or two* :o)
May I recommend placing your glass of milk into the freezer for at least a couple of minutes just prior to consuming the cookies? Makes a difference, you know. :oP
In reply, I have seen threads in which some persons admitted to vote scores of 0 and 1, because they wanted to vote on only the categories which interest them. This was signaled to me by another member, who provided the link to me. It's real, unfortunately. We all have the right to express ourselves here about things that affect us on the site. Nothing is perfect, nor do I expect things to be.
chapter 1: .. in days of olde .. you could vote on any image you LIKED ... c-indexes were typically 80-100 because only people who were drawn to an image voted on it
result = people were happy buying LARGE hats to contain their egos
chapter 2: .. then ... in the late summer of "oh' five" .. a dark cloud of reason blew in off the coast .. and the founding fathers decided to even out the crest of the wave with a little back current .. a little undertow ... and "offer" the chance to rate an image to those NOT attracted to it
result = People are sad because their hats, purchased at the inflated prices that always result from a go-go economy, no longer fit
chapter 3: .. chapter three has not been written ... we are living in exciting times .. can't you just feel the electricity in the air ... you, yes YOU .. will be able to tell your children's children that YOU were there when history was written ... HOLD YOUR BREATH ... you don't want to tip the balance unfairly
shhhhhh ... sleep now, child, it is best to save your energy
(*closes book*) .... (*turns off light*) .... (*tiptoes out*)
Hi,my name is Rob..ok, so I'm not the greatest at replies and comments. Sorry. For anyone needing to contact me, my email is back up in my profile. >> my cluttered mess of a gallery
"No one in their right mind is going to leave because of a few low scores (there would be few of us left if that were the case) but consistently low scoring is another matter. Some voters have publicly admitted they do this - perhaps there are others. Voting low is not a crime - unless it is for the wrong reasons." (quote from LynEve.)
I couldn't agree more. And NUMEROUS talented fractalists have vacated this site - - for the most part - - because their work was CONSISTENTLY berated in the voting booth, and I understand and respect their decision to do so.
Those here who simply refuse to acknowledge the negative impact of attack voting are not, IMHO, doing any service to this wonderful website. Either the C-index means something or it doesn't. If it doesn't mean anything, then it should be eliminated. If it DOES mean something, then fractalists are consistently being told that their images are not well regarded in the voting booth and it's understandable that, over time, such "artists" may decide to leave or reduce their participation here. Wen>
Just want to sympathise Wen. I think my voting is quite well spread over fractalists and photographers and I try to be fair to each. Believe me - my scores of late have been so low, it has almost become a contest in itself to see just how low I can get! I do believe the quality of most of my shots is better than when I arrived here a few months ago - yet my first 5-7 votes set the level - they are usually anywhere between 15 and 35 - so who are they I wonder? Comments left don't indicate my work is drastically poor, yet those first few voters obviously think so. I look at the scores now, but frankly lay little importance on them. I delete work regularly which I don't think is good enough to stay - but hey, here I am still!
You are not alone - I don't think it is particular to fractalists, this ?vendetta??/game??, but I agree, it hurts a bit...
We are like people looking for something they have in their hands all the time; we're looking in all directions except at the thing we want, which is probably why we haven't found it.(Plato, 380BC)
If a person is doing something and getting a low vote and isn't happy with the result,my suggestion would be to maybe try some new stuff.That's what I did and I think my stuff is a hell of a lot better than it used to be.
We are like people looking for something they have in their hands all the time; we're looking in all directions except at the thing we want, which is probably why we haven't found it.(Plato, 380BC)
kate? the manicurist stopped by and asked me to give you this industrial-grade belt sander...for your claws. go take a peek at his gallery, and then reconsider any further comments.
Hi,my name is Rob..ok, so I'm not the greatest at replies and comments. Sorry. For anyone needing to contact me, my email is back up in my profile. >> my cluttered mess of a gallery
you should be able to measure the quality of your own work yourself - most people who have posted work here over an extended period have grown in their abilities and this is reflected in their galleries when they look back upon them. relying on a number to validate your own work is pointless and the root of so many peoples complaints.
Hi,my name is Rob..ok, so I'm not the greatest at replies and comments. Sorry. For anyone needing to contact me, my email is back up in my profile. >> my cluttered mess of a gallery
No my measure of "good stuff" is me looking over other peoples stuff that I think is good and comparing mine to it.Now keep in mind someone else's measure of "good stuff"will be different then mine.Anyway here's what I tried.First I found some art groups that had really good stuff posted,then I posted some of my stuff.It took me all of about 5 minutes to realize after reading the comments that I had a lot to learn,now here's the sad thing.After a year or so of trying to improve I can post at the same groups and still I have a lot to learn.I could see a few years back people caring about the C-index cause the higher you score the higher your rank on the site,but now why would you care?It pretty much means pretty much nothing.The point is if you are happy with the stuff your turning out then fine,but if your not like me and want to improve then try new stuff.It has nothing to do with anything other than personal goals.
"my measure of "good stuff" is me looking over other peoples stuff that I think is good and comparing mine to it."
A most sensible comment tbob :)
I think this is what we all do, in effect.
I know when I first joined here everything seemed so splendid, and my votes reflected that. I now am more discerning and consequently my votes reflect that,not auomatically giving a high score because I am overawed, and more able to judge it in comparison with other works of the same genre.. I would like to think this is because my own work has improved, although this may only be in my own mind, which could well be living in cloud cuckoo land.
I have, as some others have mentioned, noticed more of what is, to my eye, more work of a lesser quality just recently, but once again this could be a result of seeing more of the best and expecting more of it.Lesser quality images are what makes the best look the best. I cringe when I look back on some of my earlier efforts, but if it had not been for them, and their quality reflected in the c-index rating along with the help and suggestions received, that level is where I would have stayed.
Some very good advice was given to me early in my membership,by a most respected and able artist here and that was never upload anything you are not happy with yourself. I have tried to adhere to that, and the bar has risen.
That there are many levels of talents and abilities here is what makes the site so special. How many of us when first discovering caedes looked around with awe, and then on further investigation saw that not all was totally top- notch work, and thought to themselves - 'golly I could do that, perhaps' and then become totally and utterly addicted? So lets not be toooo hard on the poorer images - they attract new participating members as well as the superlative ones which serve as inspiration.
Hi,my name is Rob..ok, so I'm not the greatest at replies and comments. Sorry. For anyone needing to contact me, my email is back up in my profile. >> my cluttered mess of a gallery
Thats what happend to me Eve.. I had never done fractal work.. saw so many great pieces of work and thought i'd have-a-go at it.. asked different artists how to do it etc.. and here i am still doing it.. so if it wasnt for this site and the help i received when i was a "newbie" i probably still wouldnt have tried it..
I usually find that I vote fairly, and 9 and 10's don't come out easily... but at the same time i've only given like 2 out of the 100 or so i've voted on less than a 5.
Any1's thought?