I'm angry... yep.. a bit disappointed... Is it just me or are there less abstract and fractals being submitted.. I go through the new gallery everyday and lately there has hardly been any.. which I think is a shame as we did have really good fractal and abstract artists..

I guess all the petty arguments of "I dont like fractals and abstract or I don't understand this kind of art.. so i'm not going to comment or vote.. or vote low (aka c-index)" has killed that part of the artwork on here.. My suggestion to those people... GROW UP.. they are all artists just like you are "photographers" and its about time they were recognised and respected just like YOU people (you know who i'm talking about) want to be..

This is a community wallpaper site and most abstract and fractals ARE wallpaper.. (and no I'm not saying this because I do fractal work.. cos I do photography and illustrations too) I just think its unfair that these artists are being pushed out because of the PETTY "I-don't-like-this-kind-of-art"

I know I will get a lot of abuse for this .. but I honestly don't care anymore.. I just want to see this site have the variety and quality that these fractal and abstract artists bring to this site...

*steps off the soapbox and goes back into the dark corner.... =P

Nah, It is just you, we have been averaging between 90 to 100 new fractals a week for a while now.

ok.... out of 144 new images there are only about 19 fractal/abstract.. and you reckon that is a lot? I dont think so.. that is not many at all..

Nope Jac.. it isn't you.. I've noticed to, despite assertations to the contrary.

As i mentioned before - there have been about a thousand fractals posted since the holidays - its easy to check that for yourself. it's up to the individual artists themselves what they upload and they really shouldnt care what anyone else thinks about it if they are happy with their own work. as was also mentioned - and again you can check this for yourself with a quick mental calculation - of the fractals and cg uploaded so far they average a score of at least the same as photographic work but normally a few percent higher.

the same scenario still seams to exist from the last time a similar topic to this was raised, many fractal and cg artists complain about scores and rankings but a quick check of the voting activity stats shows that many of them dont bother to vote at all so if you arent prepared to support your own style of work - why get bent out of shape if seamingly nobody else does?

Again - taking the sample you gave - yes it is a lot - 13% roughly - a lot when you consider there are nearly 40 individual photo galleries that can be uploaded to but only the one fractal gallery.

I've been hanging around here for a couple years now, and these things come and go in waves. A year and a half ago or so (just before the Great Flame Wars of 2005) there was a flood of CG images, and as a photographer I was feeling a bit sidelined as you seem to be now. It passed though, and photographs seem to be more popular now than they ever were. Caedes, himself is a CG artist, and I doubt that he would orchestrate the eradication of his own artwork. Be patient, and create what you want. Don't let its relative popularity drive you underground or off the site. Your day will come.

It may seem all right to say, "well artists should post what they want. If a fractal artist is confident of his/her own work, it shouldn't matter what others think." This ignores the sense in which people learn and explore on this site. It may be fine for confident, established artists and/or professionals, and if the site is happy attracting only those, so be it. But if the site also wants to encourage newer and/or less confident artists, it may look rather different. If for example, one has always been told that one is just "no good at art", one's experience may well be sufficiently discouraging to deter.

Just a thought. It may be that, in an ideal world, people would all have the self-confidence to trust in their own work despite others' opinions, and that they would all be accurate judges of the worth of their own efforts, but this is not an ideal world and human psychology just doesn't work that way. Either people tend to be _too_ sure of themselves - arrogant with an overblown sense of their own importance - or they tend to lack confidence and undervalue their efforts to a greater or lesser extent.

I'm sick of hearing that people should have this sort of confidence. What is the point here, exactly? Good riddance if people don't? Many people learn and experiment and improve here. If the site downgrades or discourages their form of art, that will naturally tend to make them abandon the attempt and/or go elsewhere.

Not that I haven't seen established fractal artists disappear too.

I don't have the statistics, of course, but presumably there are however many photo galleries as a result of the number of photos posted. If as many fractals/abstracts were uploaded, I suspect the gallery would be divided to break these up into more manageable chunks.

I'm not suggesting anybody is trying to eradicate abstracts, but it might still be the case that a side-effect of some other policy or policies is having a detrimental effect on that gallery.

Also, I'm curious. If abstracts score higher than photographs, why are the relative c-index scores of abstracts higher than the absolute c-index scores?

Will now make supreme effort to stop before I dig myself any deeper...

- cfr

I'd imagine that people having the good sense to base there scores and comments appropriately to the artist in question would be the norm or at least I would hope it would be. I really have no idea where this completely fabricated sense of the site trying to marginalise fractals comes from - it has no basis in fact at all. yes there are a lot more photographs and photo galleries but then again a lot more people have cameras than they do fractal or cg software - sales of digital cameras increase globally by about 100 million units per year to the point now where it estimated that at least 40% of households in Europe and America have at least one igital camera so consequently a lot more people are taking pictures and want to share them. no big mystery. no big conspiracy. just market trends and fashion. thats it.

I wasn't going to post this...but something shoved me into it....:)
Ok....
Recently.....I took a little vacation from Caedes site....to reflect....stretch...etc.
LIKE EVERYBODY....I too..have had the C-Index blues now and then...{ I went the longest time never caring..and mostly never even looking to see what my scores were on C-Index.} Then I'd get buddies who'd pm me and lament over their c-index ratings. I'd do the pep talk thing....and coach them to stop worrying! Just post and enjoy...look at DL ratio instead of C-Index. I have managed to bite my tongue when somebody that does whine over c-index happens to be a NON-VOTER....because I do think that till somebody presents a better solution for voting and all that jazz...at least participate in the current system! It can't work if nobody uses it!
Anyway: this isn't directed specifically at any one person....it is simply FOOD FOR THOUGHT.
Caedes is the BEST site there is. Others are either "ghost towns" or you are lost in a sea of other lost souls.....and nobody seems worried about their fellow artists...just mostly themselves. I've heard the fractal -vs- photography stuff for a long time, and I just do not think that there is any conspiracy against either . YES...a few barbs here and there...some totally misconstrued.
Myself: I was depressed recently about some of my manips...and fractals....and felt...wow...I must really suck because my c-index is always so low on those. I went on my little reflection vacation....came back....browsed and saw an equal number of my photos had low c index too.....and as I browsed my own gallery...it hit me. WOW...some of my work...it really SUCKS! What was I thinking!?
BUT: what do I really even want here.....at Caedes? Think about it....what do you want from the site? None of us are likely to get a phone call from somebody famous who's gonna say....Hey...just saw your C-index on Caedes....wanna come be a featured artist and travel the world and sign autographs? It's up to US...if we want to push the envelope with our art and go anywhere with it.
Then you have *Caedes who generously gives us this site to rip and romp in threads...and we all know...we get pretty naughty...and our hard working mods...{ we won't even discuss their salary} lets us all get away with a lot.
The scores on c-index in my gallery.....that are HIGH.....what did it get me?
It got me......? Hmmmmm...maybe not as much as the low scores did. The low scores made me go out there again....and take a tripod....{as advised by COMMENTERS and well meaning friends here on site.} Made me ask more questions about blending and layers for my art manips. Made me go back and play with tierazon....and read tutorials on apophysis. One day I WILL get better on apop!
{WAKE UP---I'm almost finished...I have A.D.D. so making my point can be hard}.
Can you imagine how Caedes must feel....scanning the threads...reading the stuff we all complain about? Sometimes I worry he is going to close the site down, to save himself from the headache.
I would miss everybody...bad.
Why not try a new system: ignore the c-index. All fractal artists who have left the site because they think the photographers hate them....come back....and vice versa.
Shake hands....play nice...ignore the c-index....and maybe go look at the new people arriving on site...encourage them...make them feel welcome?
Post your work because you like it...and don't worry if anybody else does.
Except YOU, Curtie_bear...{ just teasing}....:) Cheer up everybody: you all are a great bunch of artists and people and friends. MM

Hi Terri. Thanks for reminding me to vote today. I've been slacking lately too.

To those who complain about the absence of CG art: What would you have us do? Should we give cg art a highr vote bias, so if someone votes a 6 on a cg image the 6 is artificially boosted to an 8? My experience here tells me that Caedes keeps a very light touch on the tiller of this ship; we are allowed to do pretty much as we please as long as we play nicely. A side effect of that light touch is that things do not always go the way we'd like them to go. I appreciate that policy, and I believe it's the reason caedes.net is the wonderful site it is today.

I will second that Terri.....;=)
Here the stats for today at this moment:
172 total users online
129 guests online
11832 users active

I don't think the site is failing, I think we are failing the site. Many, many (myself included for quite awhile) came here and played and uploaded for nothing.Nothing was asked of me not even a penny. I didn't even have to vote when I joined 3+years ago. How very selfish of me.
Anytime there is a gathering of humanity together, not everyone is going to agree with whatever system is in place. I have seen several supreme efforts made by *caedes to improve this site and bow to the wishes of the artist...for free!!
The +mods and the &aedilies give all they have (for free) because they are willing to listen to us carry on about whatever and to help us improve in many areas.
I have seen the worst and the best come and go and the site is still up and running and the best IMHO.
Thanks *caedes for tolerating us and many thanks to all of the Senate members ;=)

I am very cheery Terri. Thanks kiddo!!!
This too shall pass as Regmar stated. It always has in the past.

OMG, MIMI!!!!!!!!!!! I am soooo jealous of what you said soooo well!
and I quote { or...er...copy paste:

I don't think the site is failing, I think we are failing the site.

Bravo Mimi! You said it all. Drats, Woman! I typed that whole windbagged bit and you said it all in one elite and very perfect sentence!

{ Hi Reg / well said too !:) Just that Mimi blew my knickers off with that line!

I agree that the abstract1fractals are underated categories...I get fantastic comments and then I look at the c-index....Paradoxal. And I vote regularly, thank you. I agree with a lot of what J 272004 says, as I have heard similar from other members. I don't know where the word ''conspiracy'' came from, as it's not mentionned.

I must have written this wrong because it obviously has come across wrong....

This is NOT about the "C" word or "V" word or the System .. it was merely stating that I've noticed over the last few weeks on the new images (Not how many photos have gone into the different photography sections etc.. i'm talking NEW IMAGES) that there didnt seem to be many fractals..

This was not a thread to argue about the "C" word or voting, it was purely an observation.. as most of you know I couldnt give a rats about those things.. I like Terri have done "counselling" to others about the "C" and "V"

and its not about how the Mods do their jobs.. I personally think they do great juggling here and real life..

Geez all I said was that I've notice there havent been many fractals etc... next time I'll keep my thoughts and observations to myself !!!!!!!!!

OK... Tom.. shoot this damn thread before it becomes another statistic of "C & V"

Just to say: my point was not intended to be about the c-index, voting or the rest of it either. (Except the question about R.C.I. vs. C.I. in light of a previous comment.)

It has bothered me far more to see comments such as "Not my style" and _nothing_else. Presumably this is in response to a comment request, but such things are not compulsory. To leave just this as a comment (and not to mention this as a qualifier on a critique which is quite different) is unnecessarily dismissive in my not-so-humble opinion. If that is all one can say, one should hold one's silence. Note, too, this isn't a complaint about comment of a critical kind, but only about comment which fails to engage _simply_ because it (abstract/fractal) is the "wrong" style. If people don't want to engage, that's fine, but I will never understand why they have to go out of their way to say so.

The c-index/voting may or may not be a symptom, but it is _at_the_very_most_ a symptom, I think. Not the main issue by any means.

- cfr

yes

Ask NOT what the site can do for you .. but what YOU can do for the site


there!! .. I worked all night on that ... surely that's got Mimi beat

Wondered what you were up to... here have some painkillers.. I know all that thinking would have given you a headache.. =PP

[The mandatory reply to Keifer...]

Ask not what you can do for the site. Ask what's for lunch.

LOL..

It's me, sorry Jacs!! I haven't been Apop'n lately...been bird watching out my back window instead. Seems we've lost several flame masters to DA in the last several months too. Apop kinda comes 'n' goes with me, I get a good script and run it into the ground then stop for a while. I'll see what I can come up with in the next week or two. 8~D

I'm always estonished by how you, "english talkers" can speak to say nothing... ;-)
Thanks Mimi!

well as I said I was only curious to see if it was just me that noticed the drop in that particular style of art.. it wasnt intended to be about votes, c-index, how the site is run, how many people are supporting it, or whatever.. but as per usual the whole question gets blown out of proportion and is taken as a whine about whatever, or what can be done or not done to improve the site.. well I wasnt complaining about anything.. it was just an observation.. and as I said before.. I should have known better from previous experience to ask a simple question.. and Yes Mimi.. I too was a non-paying member for a long time and have seen many improvements over the time I have been here.. I don't think the site is failing, the numbers in members are getting higher and higher..

And Pierre.. I find a LOT of people on here say a lot but really say nothing.. ;)


Well i wont be commenting on this thread now.. its finished... and next time I "observe" something.. I'll just keep it to myself and ask my dog if he can see it... ;)

Good day, my friends! Haven't had much time to browse the discussions - this one's interesting. I'm still posting, Jacqueline! I'll put in a few more fractals just for you. :)

Have a fantastic, wonderful, knock-your-socks-off day! :)

Nathan

awww thanks Nathan.. :) I know your still posting i've been looking ;)

it would be a real drag to work with you, Nathan .. always smiling and stuff

:o)

*stomps on Keith's foot* there,that ought to help ;-)