Whatever happened to constructive, informative and objective criticism? Most comments I see are "wow" "great" etc. etc. This may irritate some people and probably has been discussed before, I don't know. I am just as guilty because when I see such praises before my entry I feel reluctant to point out even an obvious fault/error in the posting. We are not renowned artists - mostly just amateur photographers - and with negative or positive (but truthful) comments we can only help to improve one another's performance.

Nothing wrong with leaving constructive criticism. I do it all the time. Personally I feel if I don't have what I consider to be a helpful suggestion to make it isn't worth making a comment. Praise and encouragement have their value too though, as long as it's genuine...

Hang in there Raj, I am with you on this one.

For interests' sake, search the forums using the term 'commentaries.'

There has discussion on this and some interesting ideas have been brought forth. Have a look.

As for the 'why?'

Well ... some people may not feel that they are equipped to provide a suggestion or critique, technically.

What you are reading in those 'wow' and similar comments, may in fact be the impact that the image has had on the viewer/commentator. (Happens, you know? ;o) )

I am now starting to think it is a case of time constraints as another possibility.

Whichever, whatever ... I have not had any negative feedback from my commentaries/critiques. 'Balance' being the operative word, between praise and encouragement ... and suggestions for improvement.

it doesn’t help also, when you leave a genuinely constructive comment designed to improve an image and then someone else comes along and posts a treacle laden message immediately afterwards that is both overly flattering whilst at the same time being usually derogatory about anyone offering criticism. This is very off putting to people prepared to offer critique.

This is a great thread!

PS don't listen to Phil, he don't know what he's talking about.

I have been asked by caedes sometimes to comment on photos which in my opinion were very good but nobody till then had bothered to comment on them. It may seem like a "trouble maker's" idea :) but what would you say to a suggestion that just as you are compelled to vote on 10 unnown artists' craetions/photos befor posting your own you would be asked to comment on say, 3 postings selected at random by caedes before you start commenting on photos of your favourite artists.

I think too that a lot of people wont leave constructive criticisims much these days because its been known that some members don't like being given "helpful" suggestions and get quite *how shall I put this... ummm upset and send the critique nice little pm's of thanks(not).. that kind of puts people off offering suggestions..

Its upsetting you know to have perfect work and someone offer a suggestion on how to improve it.. ;) *kidding

Ramad: I think compulsory commenting would probably lead to more of the "wow" "great" comments you referred to earlier. Personally, if I was required to comment on an image but didn't really have anything to say about it, I would probably just say it was "nice" or similar myself.

When I receive a comment request .. and the image, in my HUMBLE opinion, needs serious help .. but, yet 2 of the 3 existing comments say .. "cool image"

I generally think that those people also received a comment request for this image and that, maybe, coming and saying "cool image" is what they think they are expected to do

some sort of "support group"


DISCLAIMER: .. yes, I realize people have different tastes .. and, no, I don't think my view of things is Golden

I have often had that thought myself. The image isn't always terrible, but I get the impression that the comment is only there because the person felt obligated to say something, and they couldn't think of much else.

Personally, If I can't think of a straightforward suggestion that I think would really help, I don't leave a comment, even if the image is not very good. If you don't have anything to start with (ie there is no potential, as far as I can see) then it is difficult to suggest anything that would improve it. And I don't really want to say, "Try shooting a different subject with better lighting and composition"...

But there again, a similar situation often arises when you want to comment on your favourite artists. There you see even more often "cool image" and such. In compulsory commenting you can have your say without fear of reprisal and if it comes you can just ignore it. I have made on "request comments" comments varying from "excellent" to "I wouldn't have posted this if I were you".

Part I:

Hmm, Raj ... I hope you were kidding with that last part, notably the comment "I wouldn't have posted this if I were you".

In my not very expert psychological opinion ... I follow the approach outlined below, and it does formulate the critique somewhat:

1. Opening statement ... made after referencing the artists' profile page to gauge age, level of proficiency in their genre (quick tour of their galleries will suffice) and then how long they have been on the site.

2. Statement about an aspect I like.

3. a) Caveats or areas of improvement ... and this is important ... the how to improve.

I don't understand why someone would say 'this is no good, you should fix it' ... and not suggest how. That perplexes me to an extent. Why say anything at all then? It's an empty statement that serves no purpose other than undermining anothers' work.

Carrying on ...

Optional - 3. b) Suggest some software that may assist them. And then ...

4. Summary statement ... a thank you for sharing, or noting another aspect of their work that appealed to your artistic senses.

Why do it this way?

Psychology. People will remember the last thing said to them first, the first thing told them second and the middle part ... last.

See the method in my madness here?

Part II:

It's been suggested a few times to form roving teams of commentators.

And to further refine that idea ... how about guaranteeing some anonymity to those that wish to participate?

Furthering it some more and dovetailing on another idea that is in line with this discussion ... formalize a critique form so that words and mannerisms of writing do not give away the identities of the volunteers that wish to participate.

In return for conforming critiques ... the participating members are allowed some privilege. Perhaps, an additional upload per a given time period/frame?

Any thoughts?

The code of conduct offers a similar instruction already on commenting:

'Critiques of people's work should be constructive and if possible informative and supportive. If you don't like something, say so and then tell how it could be improved.'

But you are right - people often ignore this or use it inappropriately.

Les, I did make that comment "I wouldn't have posted this...". It was an awful photo totally out of focus and the author had said himself that he knew the photo was no good and wasn't sure if he should post it.

There was a Eurovision song contest last weekend where all European countries took part. The East Europeans (former communist countries) voted for one another by pre-arrangement so that they were leading and the west European countries came
out as losers. Nobody wants such a thing to happen in Caedes - I mean being partial to friends when it comes to voting.

My initial suuggestion of compulsory commenting was meant to give all contributors the satisfaction of having their postings commented upon. A standard as suggested by you would also help : For Example - Subject - Clarity - Presentation - comments etc.

Thanks for clearing that up Raj. I appreciate it.

As I didn't think that you would be so crass ... however, we have had instances of other members being brutally honest. And in my mind without a dialogue open between the two parties involved ... it deters the very amateur photographer from posting.

That really was my pause there, and point.

I do like the form aspect of commenting, if I can use that phrasing. There was a member, wish I could locate a commentary of his ... but, it was similar to both of our suggestions.

Breaking down a commentary into its' constituent components, more generalized though then either of our suggestions. But, I did like the approach used.

Lol ... sorry, I tend to ... uh, 'talk' a lot. :oP

In short, I agree with you ... this time. ;o)

I do not mind the "wows" etc - in fact I quite like them :) BUT when an image obviously has glaring (to others) faults which are reflected in they way it is voted on, it would be nice to receive some feed back as to what it wrong and how it may have been improved, without having to go to the Request For Comment page.
For instance, a picture I was quite pleased with, Glowing
and received thoughtful comments on, stands at 39. Comments were made by those who liked it,and I am grateful for them and enjoyed reading them.

SO where are those who disliked it enough to vote 3's and 4's ?????
I did add on this one "Happy to hear any suggestions for improvement " but so far no takers.
It is easy to press a number and vote, far more difficult to say why.
Constructive critism is one of the reasons many of us are here, buit I have to admit I am not very good at it either.

*Scurries off to Request For Comment, crying, whats wrong with my picture? :) and while I am there I wil ask about this one as well*

Maybe its the old 'its a flower and I don't like flowers' syndrome again.

Hello Lyn,I am surprised that your photo "Glowing" received only 39 points. I quite liked it, especially the lighting and said so. Take a look after a day or two it may jump up into the high forties. It happens often. The other one I found very colourful but a bit "unruly" but not to such an extent that it becomes a disqualification. I would have expected it to get less points than "Glowing". I have the impression that the stronger the colours are the more it grabs the attention of people. A white flower must be extremely good to get high points! Therefore I am posting today a rather colourful one :)

"Take a look after a day or two it may jump up into the high forties."

LOL I doubt it Raj, and I should have kept quiet, it has gone down even more, and still no suggestions for improvement. Something in my head is saying deletedeletdelete

Does anybody have any suggestions re. responding to requests for comment on images of types one really cannot make concrete suggestions for improvement about? Most of the requests I get are for photos, but I frankly know nothing about them. Sometimes I can say something about the subject (e.g. this bit is really interesting, I'd have liked to see more of that) but I can't say anything about technique or software. Photography for me consists of pointing the camera, clicking and hoping I didn't move or get my fingers over the lens. (I don't post photos!) Even with fractals, say, it is not easy as nobody seems to use the programmes I do (Gimp: yes, xfractint: no), but I can often say something I think will be constructive - even if it is "other Apop. users could tell you how to get better quality, though one option is to render larger and reduce the size" or whatever. I just can't say anything like this to photographers, so the constructive bit tends to be "is there something you could do about problem x?" which never strikes me as especially helpful.

I'm more in favour of compulsory comments than votes, actually. However, I do think the case for allowing people to decide what _types_ of images they wish to comment on should be considered. Also, it would matter whether somebody had commented on an image already, which doesn't apply to voting.

I don't think it is only worth commenting if one can make a suggestion - there is also something to be said for expressing appreciation, offering a description of one's response and, of course, saying what one really _likes_ about an image. Knowing that can be just as helpful as knowing what needs work.

But it is hard as a blatant amateur to offer criticism. I like the idea of a structured response. When I have students respond to their peers' essays, I always give them a structured guide to help ensure meaningful feedback.

I don't know if this is at all informative. Time is a factor, too, for sure.

- cfr

Yes, you can talk about the framing and angle of the shot. Maybe you might like it better if they took 2 steps to the left, knelt down to take the shot, or cropped in closer to focus on a particular area. Whether or not you like the angle of the lighting, if you think it might need more contrast, or there appears to be an overall wash of color that doesn't fit the mood.

Is the image clear? Maybe it's focused and sharp in an area that you might like to see better a little pulled back and another area focused and sharp, or maybe they need to be shooting in a mode that allows the whole image to be clearer. And finally... does the overall image "say" anything to you? Alot of great photography is NOT about being technically perfect, but having enough technique to frame and light a shot so that it conveys something to you the viewer.

All of these are things you can comment on without having to know how to how to correct them through technique or software. If they need help in developing in those areas, another commentor can help, or they can post a thread, but frequently what's needed more than anything else is another viewpoint that helps one develop an "eye".

I need criticism on this shot. It has a relatively low c-index, but the criticism does not help me figure out why it is so. Can someone give me feedback about why that migght be so? I'm rather left guessing without any explanations. Don't worry - I can take it.

Hello Regmar, which shot did you mean here?

Praise is nice and all, but as someone pretty new to all things graphic, I'd certainly welcome tips on how to improve an image over just a "nice job." Hearing from people who know a lot more than I do is the only way I have of improving besides trial and error (mostly error :P)