I was downloading a picture at work the other day from Caedes and a colleague saw me. He knows I post here and is aware of the site but I still prodded him by saying "you should have a look around for some wallpapers." His reply was interesting. "Well I have looked but its all pretty boring, just snapshots really. Very well taken snapshots, and some pretty scenes, but there's nothing that really hits you."

This rather got me thinking and I looked at the perm gallery and it does have a sameness to it as you scroll back. However, if, like I did, you scroll back down to page 429 of the permanent Photography Gallery (in date order) and have a look, there does seem to be a much greater variety of photography available, more interesting perspectives and certainly a wider range of subjects and styles than appears on pages 1-30. This could just be my impression, but I wonder.

I was in the VB yesterday and came across a picture of a woman in a hockey mask with her hair over her face, "Escape". I found it a very striking and powerful image and gave it a high mark. I looked at it afterwards. Its CI? 18. There is a B&W picture of a young man "Meditacion" in the new galleries at the moment, another quite powerful image. its CI? 7. Hotrocking's Pessimistic Petals is another example of someone posting an out of the box picture. His CI? 21. There are many other examples if you look. However, Jimbobedsel's "Crawling" gets 50. I am not saying it does not deserve it, it does, but the others deserve better.

The point I am trying to make is not so much that we apparently criticize imagination on this site with low CI marks (regardless of all the 'it doesn't matter' cries), but that we seem to be reinforcing this VB sameness with so very few of these type of pictures now making it into the permanent gallery. I feel we are stifling the very talent that will improve the quality of work on this site. I am not criticizing the voting system, that has been done enough elsewhere, I am criticizing the lack of imagination when it comes to placing pictures in the permanent galleries. It may be that these pictures I have mentioned will get there, but I somehow doubt it. They may not be the most popular downloads, or the prettiest pictures, but they add breadth to the site which it seems to be lacking at the moment.

*sigh*

here we go again. seems like once every few months, a thread like this pops up. people express frustration, indignation and a desire (of varying degrees) for some sort of change and improvement.

all worthwhile and valid, but unfortunately, often wind up being exercises in futility.

sadly, alot of those individuals whose habits and behaviors we might seek to change, don't see a problem at all.

more to follow soon..

@ Les - Help me out please...we all know I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer...a spoon is oft more appropriate...

You wrote: If an image is excellent (technically sound, et al) ... I see no reason why it should not be 'permed'. I don't think being 'different' or 'unique' ... is enough of a barometer or distinction for an image to be permed, though.

I agree that being different or unique is not enough of a reason to be permed. Yet only 7% of the permed photography gallery have a c-index of below 50. Chris states that different and unique shots rarely get a good c-index, regardless of quality. To me, and here's where I need your help, that seems to indicate that there are very, very few shots, regardless of quality, that have any chance of being permed if they have a low c-index. If indeed 93% of those permed have a c-index of 50+, and we are in a rut with those pictures being to similar, it seems to me we are right back where we started.

I do agree with you that sugar coating critiques helps to perpepuate the cycle of repitition, and more honest critique would help stimulate creativity, but I think we also need to encourage more open-mindedness in the VB. Instead of (and I am gulity of this myself) sayig "Oh pretty colors on that sunset" we need to be looking at composition, clarity, focus, etc...

It's one reason I was so very happy to see Rob (Third Eye) recieve the artist of the month spotlight. Much of his gallery shows great technical proffiniency, even if the c-index doesn't always reflect that.

So again, I apologize for being a bit slow on the uptake...please let me know what I am missing.

Rich

i think that rich and chris made some fine comments. my question is....could we begin to call our group an art site as well as a wallpaper site, and by doing so encourage some new ideas in the minds of the contributors?

I don't think we need to be an art site to have interesting pictures in the permanent galleries. I find it quite hard to explain, which is probably why Rich feels he is being slow - which he isn't, being slow I mean.

Let me try an example. This picture has just gone into the New Images gallery. It might be that it goes on to the perms, I don't know yet. Now, there have been many pictures of snow posted recently, this one conveys more than just a picture of snow and to me is obviously more of what I would like to see. There is a place in the perm galleries for snowy trees lining roads and other such pictures, but I feel Lauran has gone that little further in creating something of a higher quality. She has moved beyond the scene into ... and here I get completely lost for words. Anyway make up your own mind. I also think this picture makes a good desktop wallpaper.

If you look at Lauren's gallery you will see the other pictures I have mentioned above. They are not good desktops because I feel they need to be mounted in a frame to give them a correct aspect ratio, but they are powerful images. One is too over exposed. The other a little overexposed, but I think that that does not matter as the artistic intent of the emotion carries the picture. I do hope Lauren does not mind me highlighting her work like this. I would like to see one of this pair get into the perms just because they are different.

Perhaps it is just me, although I think Rob also gets it, his gallery is littered with good pictures with low CIs. I was so glad he got a spotlight. He deserves it.

Another artist that suffers a lot of low CI is Darksmoot He his imaginative and although not always successful becoming more accomplished. For a 19 year old it is not bad work. He gets few comments, and such low CIs. To my mind it would be better to have one of his images in the permanent galleries than having TWO tuffted titmouse pictures. Kiss perhaps. (I should say here that I am not saying the bird pictures are not good, they are, but it is the largest gallery...)

What do you think? Perhaps I should PM Mimi...

@ Rich & Chris:

"To me, and here's where I need your help, that seems to indicate that there are very, very few shots, regardless of quality, that have any chance of being permed if they have a low c-index."

"One is too over exposed. The other a little overexposed, but I think that that does not matter as the artistic intent of the emotion carries the picture."

From the lead-in sentence/descriptor to the permanent Photography galleries:

"This gallery is for the permanent viewing of the best photographic images on caedes.net."

Suppose, 'best' is indeed subjective. As is your take on some of the examples you cite in your above post, Chris.

And I don't see how one can ignore 'quality', Rich.


Definitely not saying that Laurens'; aka lanning images ... nor that of Scotts'; aka darksmoot ... are not fine work. Not at all.

Already cited somewhere above is that Lauren's "Masked Being" caught the eye of an image mod.

One more example of perhaps what Chris is talking about and might have missed, an image that is not of the 'sameness' that he speaks of ... and yet, now resides in the permanent Photography gallery ... "Lampy In The Sky With Diamonds".

No need to belabour your points, gentlemen. Noted.

Belabour? Me? Perish the thought.

In way of explanation...When I wrote "regardless of quality" I was referring to posts that recieve a low index beacuse they are technically profient, but outside the norm.

There are a mutlitude of technically good shots with low c-indexes because they are out of the mainstream. Yet c-indexes with 50 or higher comprise 93% (or so) of the perms. Obviously the c-index plays something of a factor in what gets permed. My question is going forward are we looking to be a visually appealing sight full of sunsets and birds or are we looking to be a site of technically excellent posts even if those posts are outside the mainstream.

If the higher c-index pics percieved as somewhat bland and 93% of perms have higher c-index's...how do we encourage creativity and uniqueness ? It seems, mathimatically anyway, to validate Chris's point in his opening remark:

"...I am criticizing the lack of imagination when it comes to placing pictures in the permanent galleries..."

rich said: "My question is going forward are we looking to be a visually appealing sight full of sunsets and birds or are we looking to be a site of technically excellent posts even if those posts are outside the mainstream."

I think we should strive to be both. As much as possible a side by side mix. Can we take the ball and run from there? (as a theoretical exercise for now).

I am thinking maybe too much emphasis is being placed on what is and is not permed.
Being permed does not encourage any more useful critisism - that is all done before selections are made.

In the end, most people vote according to the suitablity of the image as a desktop. Any other considerations, encouragement, suggestions etc are usually give in comments or behind the scenes.
All images are visible and available for viewing, not just the perm galleries.

Technical excellence v. mass-appeal I think.
Many would prefer a less than technically excellent tufted titmouse or a sunset as wallpaper than a technically excellent image they do not understand or lacks feeling.Unfortunately in the VB there is no opportunity to understand what the artist is trying to convey - - often it is a surprise when that is viewed after voting and may well have changed the vote number in some cases.
I think that is the key - final selection should be made with consideration for atmosphere, feeling - a message from the artist to the viewer.

I quoted Tolstoy in my spotlight bio . . “Art must create a specific emotional link between artist and audience, one that ‘infects’ the viewer. Thus, real art requires the capacity to unite people via communication”

So true.

Well said Lyn, and well taken.

Ya know...
I've said it before, it's all in "the eye of the beholder". Simple as that.

I get the "Comment" messages...look at and comment on a picture.
I always look at them.

If they're "snapshot" images, or a picture of a tree with incredible over exposure...I just choose to delete that "Comment" message.

I mean seriously. I just can't say anything "nice" when a picture is really....not even worthy of being posted here.

"Constructive" comments are really nice...for pictures and images that ARE...even a little bit "Art worthy".

It's a "Politically correct world". Anybody can post their "Art" on this magnificant site. It's "All Perspective" I guess.

AND....ANYBODY, that doesn't think one of my images in my gallery is "Art Worthy"? Just PM me....I'll delete it.

This IS a "Wallpaper" site...though I think it's ALOT more than that...
However, some of the "stuff" here, if posted on Deviant or some of the other "Art" sites.....well.....That's why they don't post that crap there. They're "Art" sites. This is a "Wallpaper" board. And yet....My FIRST Post of any image I take or create, I post HERE First.

I post on Deviant, and some other sites, once in awhile
...but I love Caedes, the people here, and the way this board is run and works.
No "Flash", no "Ads", no "Movin graphics"....just Good Art and Pictures, by good people....and of course...some crap too. :-)

I just choose to ignore the crap....
and the "C" index...of any of my posts. To me, the "C" index is not important. I post here on Caedes, for myself, and to share my "playings" in Art and Photography, with WHOEVER might enjoy them. Simple as that.

That's all it's about......to me.
least that's my thinkin. That's why I love this board so much.

@ Les
I agree with your comment on "Lampy In The Sky With Diamonds", a shame it is 2 years old. I don't think the problem was as acute then, or even existed.

@Lyn
"Many would prefer a less than technically excellent tufted titmouse or a sunset as wallpaper than a technically excellent image they do not understand or lacks feeling"

Would they? My whole premise from my first post is that there are many people out there who disagree with you. Also, being a good picture does not mean it is not understandable.

@Firefox.
I don't believe anyone should be stopped from uploading pictures, if anything they should be encouraged. The community should try to make them improve their photography if its not a good picture and to some extent that happens. Nor am I saying that the pictures in the perm galleries and not good. They are, some are excellent.

My perception is that they are just a bit 'chocolate boxy' and that we as a community, and by that I mean the artists who post and the mods, could or should be a little more adventurous, and reward those that are with places in the permanent galleries.

As far as CI goes, I find it surprising that everyone who says they ignore the CI hardly ever seem to have a picture with a CI of less than 50. Personally, Very few of mine get 50 or above, and there are many other artists who do not have their pictures voted up who get very despondent by continually receiving CI of 20, 10, or less for pictures that do not conform to the acceptable face of Caedes as stated by Lyn.

@Lyn
"Many would prefer a less than technically excellent tufted titmouse or a sunset as wallpaper than a technically excellent image they do not understand or lacks feeling"

Would they? My whole premise from my first post is that there are many people out there who disagree with you. Also, being a good picture does not mean it is not understandable.
-----------------------------------------------------
First point - I said MANY, not all. Some people may actually like technically excellent pictures that have no feeling or meaning although I can not think why. I change the "many" to "I personally" as I can after all speak only for myself.

Second point - I agree that "being a good picture does not mean it is not understandable'" I was just pointing out that an image does not have to be technically excellent to have appeal, and a technically excellent picture can be as boring as watching paint dry. It matters not whether it is technically excellent or a run of the mill chocolate box lid - it it doesn't say anything then it should not be permed simply to reward someone feeling despondent. I would have thought that if it has appeal it will be noticed.

I do not understand your 'voted up' comment - how can this happen when voting is annonymous?
Nor do I understand what is the acceptable face of Caedes I stated.
But then it is 3.29am and in the mid 30C's - perhaps it will all seem clearer in the morning. :) :)

(As a result of this thread I made an effort yesterday to 'be more adventurous' and upload something different - neither of the 2 technically excellent - far from it - I expect them to receive low marks in the VB, but like many have stated, I have got past the stage of letting that be a concern. We all need to and should try new things but only as an extension of what we ourselves think we do best - be it sunsets, tufted whatsits, flowers, or whatever. To each his own)

LynEve

i am sorry to have upset you. It was not intentional. I think we are talking at cross purposes here. I do not believe technically excellent has to mean without feeling or meaning. My argument is that good pictures do not have to be technically perfect, the artistry carries them. I have looked at your gallery and found this picture which I presume to be one of the ones you are referring to in your last post. I think it is very good, imaginative and different. It looks like many other people do to, judging from the comments on it. So why not post more of this type of work.

My point is that the site should have more of this sort of picture and they should receive good scores and be recognized. There are many artists who would post such things and receive quite low votes and I feel that this is sending such people the wrong message. You have many friends who offer you much support when you post. There are artists here that get maybe one or two comments on their work and a low score which I certainly would find demoralizing. It is easy to ignore the CI when your gallery is full of 70+ pictures. Not so much when you are lucky to get 20 for equally as good work.

As far as the anonymous voting. What a laugh. I log in. I look at my friends pictures which I receive notification of and then I vote. Do you think I forget the pictures I have just seen posted by my friends? I can recognise many pictures just from the style, the border and the name written in the corner or some-such place. I also take time to look through the New Images Gallery and make comments on many pictures. These I remember. Yes, some pictures are anonymous to me, but I would say I recognise over half of anything I vote on. So yes, voting up does happen. People even leave comments such as "If I get this in the VB I shall give it a 10!"

I got a PM this morning from one of my friends about a comment I left on one of his pictures saying how I thought it was rather good. It said. "Maybe, but more likely one day of fame and then into Caedes obscurity". This is the reality of Caedes at the moment. There are a group that are happy and probably a larger group that are not. The latter leave and we loose their talent which lessens the site.

~~ahem~~

Hi there, it's me, 'the spoon' again. And still feeling a bit slow here.

It seems to me that we are meandering all over the map here, talking of c-indexes and 'that which shall not be named' (the alleged Treacle club) and commentaries. It also seems that we are moving into a world of of hyperbole (mea culpa) and personal agendas.

The original premise was that there is not enough variety in the perm galleries.

No one has significantly argued that is not true, most of the discussion has revolved around WHY that has occured.

Some think better critique will alleviate that, some think that to much emphasis is given the to the c-index when choosing perms, some think that greater education in the VB will help that, some think that we shouldn't care about a c-index and getting permed, we should just post what moves us as artists.

Every one of those are valid points.

The real question, to me, as I stated above, is what is the real intention of this site. Yes, I know it is a wallpaper site. To that end the permament galleries should be the widest variey of pictures to draw in people from across the Internet. The question is where the proper balance lies.

I will restate my my comment from above. What is the true intent of the site? Until we - or more apropriately *caedes - answers that question we cannot move to 'YYYY'.

I agree with Cat /\. Instead of discussing WHY it is occuring (and again, mea culpa) can we discuss HOW to achieve more of a balance going forward?

Rich you re right s always.

To summarise so far.

1. There does seem to be a consensus that we need more variety.
2. Some suggestions have been made. More galleries for example.

I hope Mimi's thread results in some more artists and their work coming to prominence.

The CI is a side issue, and I doubt it will be resolved. But there needs to be a way of ensuring that talent is not put off or discouraged.

Regardless of all this it is up to us artists to solve this, not Caedes. Now, lets go and take more interesting pictures.

Chris ...re: my voting comment - my apologies - it was said 'tongue-in-cheek'. And no, you did not upset me at all.

You say "There are artists here that get maybe one or two comments on their work and a low score which I certainly would find demoralizing."
One of the best ways to get ones work looked at or commented on is to do the same yourself. I always endeavour to visit the galleries of anyone who comments on my pictures, and leave a comment, as I am sure many others do. I am often surprised and delighted at what I find. It would be interesting to know how many comments the artists you say receive only one or two are actually giving to others. I recognise some, but certainly nowhere near half of the images I vote on. My friends list is much smaller than you may imagine.
A low c-index does not preclude selection from the PG's - one of mine is 37. Maybe some of the members who have galleries full of 70+ pictures have deleted anything scored lower which suggests to me they did not have faith in their own work because it received a lower score.

Ok, ok - I am finished LOL

Good summary above in previous post.

Bringing the thread back on track.

No more mention of CI. We can solve this elsewhere.

The question is, How do we get more variety in Caedes?

My own feeling is that competitions add a lot of variety. Should we have more?

Should there be more galleries, perhaps of subjective concepts as we have for competitions?

So, ideas please, but as I said above, lets create.

So, how about that CI ?

Lol, lol...sorry Chris, I just couldn't resist...

How about a 'Theme of the Week'

How about underrated artist or shot of the week? Ties in nicely with Mimi's thread and gets works/artists spotlighted.

How about not being able to vote on images from people in your friends list?

(Ducks)

As a voting member (Not on paypal so haven't donated.) I have to vote on at least ten images each day and I've benefited from that in two ways, it's introduced me to many great photographers and it's forced me to think about WHY I give each image the score I give it - self education in "what works". I've kept plenty of low c-index images in my own gallery because I like them and am proud of them regardless of the "score". If I understand "who" votes correctly then the people just looking for nice pictures for their dt, are the ones doing the most voting. So the c-index would reflect most the sensibility of that set of viewers. I assume that most people in that set want "nice" pictures on their dt, perhaps to give them a bit of a boost in a dull workplace or something similar. Fair enough I reckon and Caedes definitely provides that set with truly superior images. I also support the idea of finding ways to encourage deeper appreciation for more artistic approaches to image making and here are two suggestions along that line.

1 - if the gallery a person puts their own image in was part of the information available in the vb that might help people know what criteria to apply to an image as they asses it. I see computer graphics in the vb and if they are stylistically slanted I'm never sure if that's deliberate or a skills deficit. I see very dark images, was that an exposure fault the poster does not understand is a fault or is it an artistic tool? If I understand the posters intent better I understand better how well they've achieved that intent on both the emotional and the technical sides. <2> - How about a gallery specifically for the more artistic/adventuress/experimental/avante garde to post their images in - a gallery that perhaps functions under different rules than the others? Say only those who post TO that gallery get to "vote" on the images in it. Or it's vote free all together but each post "must" include the artist explaining their intent and how they see what they did working toward that specific intent and then people's feedback could focus on how well that intent impacts the viewer and other techniques that might have helped that image achieve that intent.

3 - I know, I said two but another idea just occurred. I've been reading a lot on composition the last month or so and was surprised at how many ideas/rules/principles/tools for thinking there are in this area. Some of which I accidentally used from time to time but many of which were a helpful revelation to me. What if we had a page on Caedes that contained simple explanations of such principles, which perhaps can be have suggested additions forwarded to the mods to be included over time so it's an expanding repository of knowledge. Then we could find some way to force/encourage anyone who votes to engage that knowledge base before they vote - the idea being that this might give them tools to "see" images with more depth and insight than "I like that pretty picture." (For the record I think beauty is a profound thing and have no problem with people wanting/needing "merely beautiful" images on their dt, life for many is hard and non-challenging images can help them feel it's hardness just a bit less, which I think is a great gift Caedes can give.) How to get them exposed to the composition knowledge base? Have the knowledge base items run down one side of the voting booth page so the whole time you are voting you can also see at least some of the principles. Or have one item (cycling thru them all) appear on a page the voter must go thru to get to the images, or even between each image they vote on, sure, many won't bother to read them, but maybe many will. Change the voting process so a person has to write "why" they gave it the score they gave it.

-4 Another idea pops up, I regularly get images in the vb which I think are artistically great but which I "know" are going to get a weak reception from the voters who like pretty things only. I give them high score and go to the page to give personal feedback and encouragement. How about a button/link at the side of the vb where those of us who vote can hit that button so that this image then gets some special attention. What kind of special attention? - automatically moved to the "artistic/experimental" gallery or to a forum of a similar nature so people interested in encouraging this groove can identify easily the images and artists to encourage. Or some other way to get the artistic/experimental.... elements and people on this site more connected and communified. :)
Mikel.

PS I'd be happy to do a draft "composition knowledge base" doc if Caedes was interested, it would be good homework for me anyway - so much to remember so few brain cells. :)

One other idea - put some suggestions on "how" to weigh an image right next to the vb images, to help voters have some ideas about how to be consistent and "critical" in their voting.

Ok, so what am I suppose to do? I looked at all the pictures in the links throughout this thread, and for the most part, I don't care for those types of images. How can I give a high mark to something I don't like? In the VB recently, I ran across a black and white image of a half eaten plate of food left on an outdoor restaurant table. I guess this is "art" in some people's minds. It's not in mine. If the majority of members in Caedes liked these types of images, then they would get higher scores. Let the majority rule. Face it, most people like the great outdoors, animals, good architecture,flowers, nature etc. I like what I like. I don't like what I don't like. I score accordingly. Neither will people give a true critique of somebody else's work for fear of that person scoring their work low when they get it in the VB. I hate to say it again but sacking the VB would solve every complaint in this thread. (steps down from soap box).
Momma

*Following Miss Pat....carrying her soap box for her from thread to thread.*

The point of the thread was not about the taste of people who post here, or even to argue about the VB. I quite understand Pat not liking some images, of course everyones tastes are different. My original point is only that just because images get low points does not lessen their merit and that more interesting or original picture should make the permanent galleries even if they score low in the VB.

Well Chris (no,no SatCom, thankyou, I won't need to get on the soapbox). You explained it differently this time and much clearer. I see what your asking.... (no SatCom, just leave the soapbox off to the side...yes...right over there will be fine. Your so sweet...)...ahem...now as I was saying...ahem... the heading above the permanent gallery reads,"This gallery is for the permanent viewing of the best photographic images on caedes.net". Bearing that in mind, most low reeeeeeeeely low scoring images are not going to make it in there because too many people, including the mods didn't like'em or they wouldn't have scored low. Also, I don't know what your definition of "low score is" but I have seen plenty of low scored images in the Permanent gallery. That gallery has 825 pages. Go to the Photography gallery in the upper left corner of the front page of the web site and open it. Click on "arrange by C-index:, then go to page 825, 824, 823 and so on and look at the images there along with their c-index. I think you'll see your wish has already been granted. There are definitely some "interesting" images there.
(What did you say, SatCom? I am perched back on my soapbox? Oh dear, I didn't even realize....please forgive me everyone!
Owd Momma

Obviously the mods that have posted here, even Caedes, like everyone else is wrong. There is no problem. Stops banging head against brick wall and gets back to posting images.

*Wrapping hand and appyling ice....Miss Pat stands on hand. I didn't let go of the Soap box early enough...heads to hospital.*

For your collective consideration, as I believe this other discussion thread is somewhat pertinent to the ongoing discussion here:

"Wallpapers, and not."

And dovetailing on some of Mikel's ideas ... I've posted a new thread under the Non-art Website Issues forum here.

/\ The above is not to suggest that Mikel's ideas are misplaced within this discussion. Simply wanted to place the thoughts under a new discussion thread, wherein, under that forum there are already has been some discussion on this particular subject.

MMM, just had another thought as I was reading the critique II thread. What if we came up with a way for posters to indicate on each upload what kind of feedback they wanted? I know some of us actually encourage genuine critique in our comments but what if that was a conscious choice each person who uploads had to make, via three or four buttons/ticks at the uploading stage. I know I've given honest, what I thought was even handed critique on occasion and had the person get all sniffy with me for not just saying, "nice photo". Some of us want encouragement, some want something a bit more challenging. I like both. :) So if each time I got to a photo I could see that the artist wanted genuine critique or not, that would make it easier for me to do and easier for all those who only want encouraging comments. The reality is that any broad community embraces more than one set of reasons for people being involved and a health community is one that finds way to support at least the "main" sets of reasons people have.
Mikel
Mikel.

Pat asked how she could give a high mark to something she didn't like. Her question pretty much gets to one of the core "a prioris" probably at work here. Most voters vote basically along the "like-don't like" model. But it is also possible to vote on a "qualities regardless of personal taste" model. I've got a couple of shots that I keep in my gallery that are my little "green thesis", ugliness is part of their point, part of the truth I wanted to invite people to consider, I knew they'd score poorly. I suspect even if my composition skills had been better back when I took them they'd still have scored poorly because they "had" to be ugly to be true. My, admittedly meandery, point is that it seems the main judging criteria in the vb is a certain kind of beauty ideal and only the greatest of artists have ever managed to produce both beautiful and deeply challenging/confronting images simultaneously. The rest of us produce one or the other and when it's the other here at Caedes you just expect to take your lumps in the vb. :)
Mikel.

@ Les
The site splitting idea in the "Wallpapers and not" thread is something I also brought up (without knowledge of Rob's suggestion) in the 'Maintaining Quality' thread started by the Lord Caedes himself. I still think it's a good idea.
It's just over halfway down that loooong thread

On the subject of voting I posted this in July 2006 and I still use the same method

"Rightly or wrongly :) this is how I vote

1 - 3 Quality

1 - 3 Content

1 - 2 'Wow' Factor (does it make me linger, does it make me think. Does it make me want to find out more about this artist)

0 - 1 Desktop Value (suitability, not necessarily would I have it on mine)

0 - 1 Personal Choice (probably should not be an issue but I think most would agree it usually is :) ) "

Read what others had to say HERE

Lyn,
I like what you have stated above. I'm going to make a copy of that if you don't mind. And for the perusal of anyone else reading this thread, the third thing you mentioned is probably the biggest reason images get scored at 60 and below-no WOW factor. An image can be perfectly focused, perfectly exposed, have perfect composition, but can also be perfectly boring! (steps down from soapbox once again)
Momma

If anyone loks at the top of the thread, before we all got sidetracked into VB issues, my original contention was that many pictures without WOW were being posted to the permanent galleries. Hence the title of the thread, "A Certain Sameness" My original contention is that WOW pictures were seemingly being missed. Now obviously what I concider wow, is not necessarily what Pat and LynEve see as WOW, but I am just rather bored with birds, sunsets and views of the countryside that seem to abound in the recednt perm entries.

Pat has got it right in an earlier post. If you order the perm photographic gallery by CI and look at the LOW end, you seem to get a greater variety of pictures that at the top. You also seem to get the same effect if you order by date. Older posts seem to me to be more adventurous and interesting. This may be my impression, as has been stated, but the issue here is not who votes for what and why, but how we keep Caedes a site that welcomes artists of all types with as much imagination as possible. And also how we stop artists leaving because they feel stifled, underrepresented or undervalued which many do.

I hesitate to post to this discussion for fear of offending, stepping on toes, or being misunderstood so I would start by saying that despite the hundreds I've viewed over the years, I still enjoy the birds, flowers, sunsets etc. and there are times when I can still be 'wowed' by an image in these categories. That said, however, I have to agree to some extent with what Chris has said. Without checking the lows and highs of the perm galleries, I do recall in the 'earlier' years that I was here that there seemed to be a greater abundance of fractals, CGI's, manipulations, abstract images etc. AND more to the point of this discussion, there seemed to be a greater receptivity and appreciation for them than exists today. I don't know how or when it started but it does seem to a large extent that the site has evolved away from those types of images, lending a 'certain sameness' to the popularity of the birds, flowers, sunsets etc. I for one am sorry to see that this has happened as it not only resulted in the loss of many good artists in those categories but has also diminished the variety of art and skills we now view and the 'outside of the box' thinking that once fascinated me within these genres.

Chris, you said further back "The question is, how do we get more variety in Caedes?"
I think the dreaded VB/C-i is pertinent to this - it is a filter for the "permers" to consider images. It is inevitable that some 'wow' images that have for one reason or another been voted low slip through the net. But I don't think it happens that often - there will be many members who will tell you their lower scoring images have been chosen.

So - How do we get more variety in Caedes?

I already suggested a Theme of the Week.
Expanding on that - how about a "do something different week" - encourage photographers to dabble in other genres and vice versa. There will be many photographers who do not appreciate what is required to produce a WOW fractal etc image and I know for a fact some fractalists/computer artists imagine that taking a good photo is a matter of seeing a scene/flower or whatever and clicking. Anyone can view a nice scene but it takes skill talent and knowledge to produce a WOW photo. See THIS as an example of a WOW - and this artist is always happy to share his skills and help others.


Second suggestion : Give voters the option to vote on all images OR a genre of their choice. That way those who do not feel able or interested to vote on things they are bored with or don't like can use their votes more usefully.
Personally I like the variety of all types of images for voting on but have to admit that in a typical 40 vote session I average seeing perhaps 1 that (for me) has a true WOW factor - and it can be from any genre.

Third suggestion: Probably flogging a dead horse here because I have suggested it twice before with no response. . . A "Work In Progress" forum where artists could seek opinions, help and advice before uploading the final version. Request For Comment only attracts requests regarding images that have already been uploaded, and are generally as a result of their status. A WOP forum would be particularly helpful for anyone trying something new, working out of the box, and may result in more quality images with a difference. By observation other passing members would benefit as well.


I believe an image with a real WOW will speak to anyone and if the majority of WOW images have a preponderance of birds, landscapes etc I do not think that is a reason to discourage those who create them. We have a small number of excellent photographers here who are an inspiration to the rest of us - don't lets risk loosing them by lumping certain subjects under the 'sameness' banner. They may be the same in subject matter but not in what they convey.
Agreed - your 'wow' may not be my 'wow' but a REAL WOW crosses all barriers, no matter what the subject/type.


ps - good way to start encouraging new artists is to go to the New Artists link under Other Stuff. I suspect not many do, as most of them do not receive a great many comments, unless of course it is a wow image.

Chris (crysophilax)
Just so you know, I understand where your coming from. I too get tired of birds, countryside, flowers etc and since there are so many of them posted they have to be really different to grab my attention. Also, I think anyone reading this who wants to see a gallery that is out of the norm, yet appropriate,and I might add full of excellent images, go look at Chris's gallery. I also duly noted that fact to Mimi who is looking for good but unrecognized artists. See Chris, Owd Momma ain't so bad.
Owd Momma

~~sighs~~ Still feeling like a spoon, still confused.

@Chris: I think you hijacked yourself in your last post. Let me see if I can sum upwhat I think your saying, and please correct me if I'm wrong.

There are lots of shots with a low 'Wow' factor that are none-the-less very, very good posts (be they photo's, fractals, manips, whatever) on a technical level. These deserve more exposure in the permanent galleries and we, collectively, need to do more to encourage these types of posts.

Right?

@ Pat (mesmerized): I don't think you stepped on anyones toes, very eloquently stated and I, for one, appreciate your comments.

@ Lyn: Thanx for bringing us back on-topic, I would agree with much of what you said, and everything was well ordered and well reasoned.

And although there are now at least 2 other threads on the topic, I think Les has a good point about more honest critique. If, as Lyn says and I agree, there aren't all that many truly "Wow" shots, there shouldn't be that many "Wow" type commentaries either (mea culpa).

@Pat. No, Owd Momma ain't so bad at all.

@Rich. Yes, pretty much. I think there are different types of wow. As we have seen above not everyone sees the same type of wow. Some wow is obvious, some grows on you, and these are the ones that get missed. I love B&W pictures. Some of these have to me a great deal of wow, and not often do they get to the perms. That's all. Lets use some imagination in what gets posted up there.

Just wanted to add that I really like Lyn's idea of 'Theme of the Week'...if it's not an idea that the site is willing or able to incorporate at this time, there's nothing stopping any one of us in posting the suggestion or challenge under 'Member Initiated Projects'...it might be interesting to see what pops up.

Theme of the week....................I like it!
Momma

First theme ... "Baked Good Morsels".

Now then, go ... and propagate cookie pixellry.

:oP

Chris began an interesting discussion here by referencing what one of his collegues said about Caedes.net: "....Well I have looked but its all pretty boring, just snapshots really. Very well taken snapshots, and some pretty scenes, but there's nothing that really hits you......"

I haven't commented in these discussions for some time primarily because I have found that even thoughtful criticism or suggestions for change is often not well taken by some here and I don't enjoy ticking people off. LOL!

Nonetheless, like so many others here, I really dig this site. Soooooo, I'll put in my two cents worth and hope I don't offend anyone too much (that is not my intention.)

I started posting here in August of 2005. From then until now, PHOTOGRAPHIC images(as opposed to computer generated images of various types)have dominated. It seems that this has become even more the case over the last year or so.

I think this is in PART what might prompt outsiders to feel a certain "sameness" to the work here. Because Photographers tend AS A GROUP to favor photographs to other types of images, other types of art has simply not been as well RECEIVED, IMHO. In short, I think there's a LOGICAL BIAS that favors Photographic images here and that this is reflected in how images of different types RATE here.

Say what you want about RATINGS but they DO matter to most people, at least somewhat. And I KNOW that a number of highly talented artists have either radically reduced their participation here or left altogether because they don't feel like their work is appreciated all that much by the kind of artists who hang here.

I suggested something awhile back that I'll try to reiterate. I think the overall RECEPTION of images here might be less bias if LIKE images were rated with LIKE images. In short, have "voters" rate a group of FRACTALS in relation to one another rather than in relation to other TYPES of images. Give voters a GROUP of five or so FRACTALS or PHOTOS or 3D images (you get the idea) and have them rate them relative to each other (i.e. the image in the group you like best gets a 5, second best a 4....and so on, with the image you like the least receiving a 1.) This would FORCE different TYPES of artists to give focus only on the type of image in question rather than compare it with their ideal type of image.

If enough of these RANKINGS of LIKE IMAGES occur, the best images should surface in ALL categories when the rankings are averaged.....

Does that make sense? I know some will frown at my bringing up ratings again, but I think if you ranked images in this way, it may encourage more artists of types OTHER THAN Photographers to be more active here..........

My two cents...Wen

I think the difficulty with Wen's suggestion is one of site software development. Other than that it would certainly help.

When voting I have a difficulty in judging fractals, as I have no idea at all of the effort that went into them. I can only judge on beauty as I see it. Since I feel that this should only be part of my vote I tend to post middling scores for these pictures anyway. I suggest that others have the same difficulty or, as Wen says, the large voters are mostly photographers who like photographs and are probably less disposed towards other media.

Given the predominance of a single style at the moment in the photography section, and my own feelings when I post another photograph and get a score of 40 or less, again, and the total despondency I feel at this continual silent criticism of my work, I can imagine how artists in other mediums must feel.

Some people vote a lot. I am sure this skews the voting into a certain style anyway, simply because of personal taste. Perhaps votes should be just limited and tied to postings. You have to vote for 12 pictures to post, and cannot vote more until you have posted. This would at least spread the voting out a little.

I can not believe that the majority of photographers are less disposed towards other media.
I guess I only speak for myself though and that is why I made my Second Suggestion which Wen has expanded on.

"Some people vote a lot"
I would respectfully suggest that some people do not vote ENOUGH.
I endeavour to do my 10 votes per upload and if time permitted I would do more. If everyone voted more there would be a fairer distribution of votes. I have said time and time again that the 'perk' of not having to vote by being a cadre is unfair and everyone should be required to vote in order to upload.

I think it is slightly unfair to complain of skewed votes as though it is the fault of those who DO vote when in fact it is the fault of those who do not. Personal taste should not enter into the equation when voting but being human (as we all are, aren't we?)it is inevitable that it plays a small part in choices.

LynEve. i am not blaming those who do vote. As I said it is a matter of taste. I too feel more people should vote, and those that do not vote should not post. As for personal taste entering into the voting, there are posts on this thread that say just that, and many people do vote on personal taste. It cannot be helped, and it should not matter, if, as you say. more people voted.

@ Wendy: Certainly don't see why anyone would take offense at anything you said, thanx for sharing. A question - when you say vote like against like, is that voters choice or randomly generated when you enter the VB ?

@ Lyn - "I can not believe that the majority of photographers are less disposed towards other media." Well...not deliberately anyway. I agree with Chris, I don't understand fractals, I've talked with Fractalists here, I've played around with Apo...and I still don't get how you make them. Therefore I end up voting middle of the road on many of them, which admittedly isn't fair to anyone.

@ Chris and Lyn - split the difference. Yes everyone SHOULD vote more...but they aren't going to (mea culpa). And Lyn has indeed posted multiple times on muliple threads that voting should be required for all...an idea I agree with 100%. Add Chris's idea of 12 votes per post, no more no less and you help to eliminate the indue influence of someone who votes 40 times per day everyday. It has the potential to skew the numbers. Yes it's not perfect, because someone who posts twice per day still gets more votes than someone who posts twice per week, but it reduces the influence. Add in an idea (I think it was Cat in a different thread) of limiting and reducing the number of posts per week and you will make some headway.

Then, continue on Les's thought of better and more honest critiques...and we may see some real change.

Now that I've rambled about in a manner that should make the cookie-man proud let me backtrack. Way up there /\ somewhere *caedes himself asked how we move from "XXXX" to "YYYY". I stand by my original statement that until it is determined what "YYYY" should look like we can talk all we want, but will never get there.

Rick.....When I suggested ranking LIKE images rather than comparing images of different TYPES, I was suggesting a RANDOM draw of LIKE images (i.e. fractals)that would be generated in the Voting Booth. Hypothetically, voters to could be asked to rank five GROUPS of like images when they come to the voting booth. That might come down to ranking three groups of Photographs, a group of fractals and a group of 3D landscape images. But the images in each GROUPING would be homogeneous.

The TYPES of images as well as the images found in each grouping would be generated randomly, so that different fractals would be compared with different groupings of other fractals, etc. by different voters. Eventually, those images with the highest and lowest AVERAGE RANKINGS, when compared to other LIKE images, would surface. Wen

Thanx for clarifying. Not a bad idea, imho, if the programming could be worked out.

Question next though. If I, by my own admission, know little about fractals much as I have tried to understand the concept behind creating them, and therefore rank all of them vetween, say 40 and 60 based solely on whether they appeal to my eye...how does that really change anything?

Really not trying to antogonize here, because I do agree that many times forms other than photography may get the short end of the stick...just really trying to understand how this idea helps fix that.

Sincerely,

The Short Bus Guy

Rick...EXAMPLE: You get five photos to compare. You RANK those photos RELATIVE to ONE ANOTHER. Soooo, the image you like best gets a "5" ranking, second best gets a "4" ranking, third "best" gets a "3" ranking, the image you like fourth best gets a "2" and the image you like least in the group gets a "1." While you may think that ALL of the images are fairly good, the ranking is RELATIVE to one another, NOT absolute.

It's kind of like ranking which person out of five candidates you think would be best as President by choosing who would be your first choice on down to who would be your last choice, even though, in reality, you might not see all that much difference between them.

Make sense?
Wen

Got it, thanx. Now to tie it back in to Chris's original premise...If you have 5 photo's, and 3 are of pretty sunsets, and 2 are outside of the box, although technically very well done, history has shown that the 3 sunsets are going to score better.

Are you then suggesting that the 5 images are generated at random from all photo's eligible for voting so that any given image is rated against a variety of images, to get a truer representation of how it compares to a variety of photo's ?

Chris, I agree with the premise of your thread 100%. And, just because an image got a low score in the booth, doesn't mean it didn't deserve to A.) be in the perms & B.) have a higher score ! All the lower score means, in all probability, is that someone didn't like it and/or a couple of someones were rushing through the booth & just slammed down scores.

And everyone knows it too.

@ Wendy. I agreed with every little thing she said, chapter & verse, up to the part about the grouping of images in the booth, which I need to think over some. But it's late & I've had a really hard day so I'll get back to you all.

And, not to open anothercan of worms, but the WOW factor being discussed ? Wasn't that very thing discussed last spring, though in a different way, when we had those big discussions on the Quality of the uploads here on Caedes ? And, when in an effort to increase the quality of the uploads.... no matter the style, photography, CGI, fractal, whatever....the image mods were cracking down on some of the lesser quality images & not sending them through it seemed because suddenly it seemed the quality of the work hhad vastly improved. Then abruptly it went back the other way with a vengeance so I'm assuming that the uproar in notes to caedes protesting that every stroke of the keyboard & every click of the camera button was Louvre worthy & must be allowed to stay.... because stay they have. And all the ordinariness that certainly makes it harder to find that ol' WOW factor.

@Pat....I don't think you've stepped on anyone's toes & if you have... oh well because everything you've said is the truth, sadly. There's some really great artists left, but they don't post much & there's some great new ones who do post. But the stars your talking about no.... they're gone mostly. And a fair amount of them just quietly left because of the attitude that used to be a lot more vocal around here, especially towards fractalists. The ol' "I don't understand how it's made so I'm going to vote a 0 on it so I can get past this " mentality that we fought against for so long. There's only so long you can fight against it so a lot of very good abstract artists just quietly left.

~~Sighs~~

~~Again~~

To me, and I may be way off base here, we are all tap dancing around the real issue. Lauren however, has possibly come the closest to nailing it.

We can talk all we want on various threads, but it all boils down to changing attitudes.

Let me speak very bluntly here. In other threads ideas were advanced and the message that came back was that this is to be a site that is as inclusive as possible, which is noble indeed. It may well be Lauren why you saw the shift you mentioned above - from cracking down on images to letting more images through. It is how people that are new to whatever craft learn, grow and improve. If you take the time to read the various threads that's what they all come back to.

There doesn't seem to be any serious arguement that we have gone off the tracks, at least to a certain extent.

Les's arguement has been that through the use of more honest critique we drive the desired behavior. Lyn argues that mandatory voting levels the playing field. Wendy argues that grouping like with like makes for a more honest assessment. Phil argues that the "Treacle Club" is destroying the site.

There is truth to every one of these arguements, and, imho, it is a combination of all of the above need to be incorporated. Implementing a single one will move us away from the all-inclusive nature of the site.

For example, to incorporate Wendy's idea leaves me feeling frustrated if my pictures always end up ranked 4th or 5th out of a group...unless I get honest critique of the post so I can learn how to improve. If we incorporate Lyn's idea of everyone having to vote we run the risk of people rushing through the voting just to be able to post, and not taking the time to really study the post they are voting on...

Much as I normally despise corporate America, I think we need am Internal Mission Statement here. While the purpose of the site as a whole is to provide a site for anyone to come and find wallpapers, the INTRENAL purpose of the site should be for artists to come, learn and grow by accepting AND offering honest critique, taking their time in the VB and voting on technical aspects of a picture, not just the WOW factor. People who are willing to do that, regardless of skill level should be welcomed and embraced, regardless of skill level; those that are not, imho, will eventually find a more casual site that is more in line with their own agenda's.

If we don't know where our destination is we will never get there.

~~Sits back and waits for the fireworks to start~~

Rick asked: ".......Are you then suggesting that the 5 images are generated at random from all photo's eligible for voting so that any given image is rated against a variety of images, to get a truer representation of how it compares to a variety of photo's ? ....."

Yes, Rick, I'm suggesting that images included in each group to be ranked are selected randomly from ALL images in that category of images that are eligible to be voted on. Soooo, a photo of a SUNSET might be compared with a photo of a mountain, a photo of a waterfall, a photo of a bird and a photo of a barn in one group. In another group, that same photo might be compared with another sunset photo, a photo of a sailboat, a photo of a forest and a photo of a corn field.

Again, this is just a suggestion but, by randomly placing images in groups of like images and then RANKING those images relative to one another, the most popular images in each category of images would rise to the top while the least popular would settle to the bottom. The advantage, in my opinion, of a system like this would be in not asking people to compare apples and oranges, if you will. AND, by doing it this way, images of ALL types would have a similar OVERALL Caedes rating. In other words, PHOTOS would no longer have overall ratings two to four times higher than ratings of other types of images (i.e. fractals and computer generated images.) A highly rated FRACTAL would score as well as a highly rated PHOTO. I hope that makes sense....?? Wen

I haven't read it all - so excuse me if this has been suggested before. Question to Les : Would it be possible to adjust the voting booth in such a way that you don't get to vote on your friends' postings. I think it will make a big difference. You can comment on your friends' photos but you won't get his/her photos in the VB.

I think that'd be a pretty hard thing to do & I personally don't think it would happen anytime soon. I can't imagine what they'd do....ask everyone to fill out questionnaires & list all their friends on it so whoever is doing the software can work the individual algorithms needed ..... omg, my brain just fried trying to think how to say it. ;O_O

Anyhow.... I think that would be pretty hard to do. As it is right now, your not supposed to know who the images are from but since some of them are signed & some people take a quick scan through the new images gallery before they start voting.... what're you gonna do ?

Bravo for making the point Chris. I have said for a long time that the C-index creates and reinforces a certain aesthetic. People learn from experience what wins approval and then produce images accordingly, a point which has been made above. So, landscapes, sunsets and wildlife are in... and people and experimentation are out. I think the site is poorer for it, particularly compared to other desktop and photo sites(interfacelift, photobase, photosig etc) where the images are much more diverse. There have been many discussions about how the index could be modified, including on Les's thread here, so I won't get into that one. In my view simply scrapping it would be an improvement. I should say that this is NOT a dig at the mods either - I agree with Les about the quality of comments and that certainly has its impact too. That argument has been well-rehearsed in other discussions, including by me. But inevitably people perform for the C-index and I just wish we could drop it.

I'm backing up Rich here. Well I think that's what I'm doing. Plenty of folks come here just to get their pretty DT images. That's why I found this site, searching for images but I stayed and joined to participate and contribute my own and along the way I've made friends as well AND my knowledge base has grown. I started in one group - looking for pretty pictures - ended up in a different group - learner artists. In the first group all I care about is getting to the pretty pictures as fast as possible. In the second group I want a whole heap of other things. Rich suggests an outright recognition of that two group reality and that seems sensible to me. He also suggested the internal mission statement to help guide what to create in future, in terms of the site. I know not everyone is into mission statements but if Caedes already has some clear ideas, and consistent decision making implies that is so, then having them spelled out somewhere would be helpful for those of us who want to contribute more but who maybe want to contribute "against the grain" so to speak. :)
Peace,
Mikel.

@Rich
"If we incorporate Lyn's idea of everyone having to vote we run the risk of people rushing through the voting just to be able to post, and not taking the time to really study the post they are voting on... "

Yes agreed, but I think that happens already.
I have thought about this and wonder if decreasing the number of votes required per upload to say 5 BUT provide a tick off box for various aspects - along the lines of what I posted in 'how I vote' but of course chosen by someone with the expertise to do so. This would make voters stop and think, and perhaps give a fairer result. Not only would it be of assistance to new members, but would stop the speed voters in their tracks.

Going too far and making voting too complicated runs the risk of making it a chore instead of something that should not only be enjoyable but a learning experience as well.


I dont see how not voting on friends images would work - those keen enough would just scrap their friends list perhaps?
I do think that not displaying the voting score until voting is complete would be helpful.

Further after thinking - Rich said that previous conversations here indicated to him that there was the desire to make this as inclusive a site as possible. If that is so I can admire that goal but also have to suggest that it's near impossible to achieve. The values/interests of those with the most influence will determine the boundaries of any community. Analytically it seems to me we have competing "influence groups" here at Caedes. The influence of those who vote while looking for pretty pictures and the influence of Caedes and crew. If it's true that plenty of artists have left due to vb results consistently undervaluing their work then the voters HAVE exercised massive influence over the nature of this community. As long as there is voting that situation will remain the same and part of the effect of that is that the site becomes less and less inclusive under the inexorable tide of that voting pattern. There are many different ways to shape and manage a community and democratic versions where the leaders have no way to inspire the members to higher achievements tend toward mediocrity over time. Communities of excellence generally are much more leadership driven with influence deliberately limited to a "hard core" with demonstrated commitment to the desired excellence. In that second model people can be involved in the community easily but only get to influence it fundamentally after demonstrating the excellence aspired to. At the moment "anyone" can vote and Pat's most recent upload, the FIRST FEW comments on it, demonstrates the thinking of many of those voters. THAT thinking is not inclusive, nor will the voting that flows from that thinking be inclusive. My point is not to vilify people for having certain values and voting in line with them, my point is that the current voting dynamic is not inclusive so if inclusion is a core value here then the voting is at odds with achieving that goal.'
Mikel.

God love you Mikel. You have summed up so much of what I was trying to drive at. There is only one sentence I disagree with:

"The values/interests of those with the most influence will determine the boundaries of any community."

I would say that "The values/interests of those with the GREATEST POPULATION will determine the boundaries of any community."

If the majority of people posting right now are more interested in feel good social type comments, and pretty sunsets over compositionally superb but out of the box type posts (or photography over fractals) that is the direction the site will go, and nothing will change that.

Which brings us back to Chris's point about the generic feel of the galleries as of late.

Which brings us back to Les's point about honest critique.

Which brings us back to the point of deciding on the true goal of the site. My suggestions?

First, a mission statement that new members must read and acknowlegde when signing up that clearly states while caedes goal is to be as inclusive as possible it IS a site for people who take their craft seriously and are striving to improve through the use of honest and considered feedback,

Second, a list of of things for new members to consider in the VB.

"Step 1: First look at the composition or content in the photograph. What is the center of interest in the picture? Where did the photographer place it in the frame? Did the photographer get close enough to the subject to include only what is important, or are there wasted parts of the picture with elements that do not add to the message of the photo?

Step 2: Next, observe the background in the photograph. How did the photographer represent the background in regards to focus and depth of field? How does the background add or distract from the message of the photo?

Step 3: Now take a look at the technical camera work involved in the photograph. Is the subjects sharp and clearly in focus? Is the photo exposed properly? A properly exposed photo will have some texture in the shadows. Are details missing because of over or under exposure?

Step 4: Then look at the craftsmanship the photographer exhibits. Does the physical photo have spots, stains, or scratches? Is it placed nicely in a frame or elaborately displayed? Is there evidence that the photograph was made with care in the process?

Step 5: Finally, offer your own personal feelings on the photograph. What do you like about the selected subject? Is it an emotional shot, a story, a statement, a humorous photo? What would you do differently if you had the chance to take the same photograph?"


(Stolen directly from Les's 'Is Critique Dead, Part II' thread)

That way there is no misunderstanding as to what the site is all about.

~~Stands back and waits for more fireworks to commence~~

I'm not very majestic with words as many of you, but I have posted an image titled A Certain Sameness in reference to Chris's original post to try to show the difference in opinions from one version of an image to the next. I am hoping this will help show an example of what this thread originally started out to be (if I am understanding everything I have read).

Granted, I have just made the Perm Gallery with my first 2 images ever since I have been here and they were based on many factors. Please take a look at my gallery and see to base your own opinion as to why. But for me as a new comer and learning artist, this thread has become extremely helpful in many ways....good and bad. Many points I agree with, many points I don't quiet understand. All I do know is that I take an image I like...I leave it on my desktop for a while to see how it changes on my feelings...I upload it....it goes to new galleries..then it is archived or to the Perm Galleries. Everything else in between just gets congested and confusing for me.

How do I view other artist images? By the way it makes me feel. Kinda of like pitching at baseball. The more you think about where the ball is going...the more of a chance you are going to miss the strike zone. Think about the small details and how you feel about the pitch and you hit it everytime. Just my 2 cents for what it is worth.

Paul

"If the majority of people posting right now are more interested in feel good social type comments, and pretty sunsets over compositionally superb but out of the box type posts (or photography over fractals) that is the direction the site will go, and nothing will change that."


So - give the artists who produce the pretty sunsets etc some feedback with your opinions of them - no one will learn or change if no one directs them.
The site IS its members, and it seems that the divisiveness is being fanned to a degree by those who are dissatisfied with its direction.

It has already been noted that there are in effect two groups operating here.
I think if you ran a poll the majority of members would claim they are here for both reasons - enjoyment AND learning and where they are able, helping. Some are more able to help and advise, and it is up to those who are to do something about it, rather than complain about those who do not. Sure there are a lot of pretty sunsets, sure they begin to look the same but there are those that are presented with skill and expertise - just because there are a lot of them does not mean there will not be outstanding ones.

The Photoshop-aholic thread is an excellent way of informing and instructing people. It has had a lot of hits.
The fact is there are many members who do not venture into the Discussion threads and so are unaware that there are any 'problems' - for them there are none.

Edit: I just want to pick up on something Chris said further back in reference to my own picture Memories of A Vase
he said "I think it is very good, imaginative and different. It looks like many other people do to, judging from the comments on it. So why not post more of this type of work.
My point is that the site should have more of this sort of picture and they should receive good scores and be recognized."

Heaven help us if this is the sort of image that should be encouraged. With all due respect to Chris, it is a waste of space and did not deserve the score it received.

Valid points, Lyn...and if I offended you that was not my intent.

I offered not just complaints, but my suggestion as to how to try and achieve more of a balance between enjoyment and learning.

You ever feel just invisible?

@ Rich , no no no, I am not offended.
I algree with most of what you said and especially your list of of things for new members to consider in the VB.
Sorry, I come accross the wrong way sometimes. My reference to complaints was not personally directed at anyone. In truth I was actually looking to myself when I said that - I have little knowledge or skill to pass on but admit I don't do what little I can often enough.

May I offer a peace offering cookie?

@ Paul.
No, I see you and hear you but I think it is time for me to shut up lol

Hey Paul,
you said "How do I view other artist images? By the way it makes me feel." The instinctive thing works great for images that work because I like them. But what about images that are intended to work because of their truth or their weirdness or their challenge of norms? Such images may not evoke an initial positive gut response but still be truly quality creativity worthy of strong positive responses. In those cases - the exact kind of images this thread started out suggesting were diminishing here - more analytical criteria are needed, or a different mode of "seeing", for us to appreciate the quality of those images. In addition, some of us have great instincts but others, like me, don't, we need a more rational/intellectual guide to help us assess images and to help us compose our own. I suspect good instincts are rarer and more people are like me. :)
Mikel.

@Mikel
That is the exact reason I have to view from my "feeling". I am not analytical and cannot "see" the balance, or any other criteria that makes for a great image. If the image (be it photograph, fractal, or whatever) stirs an emotion in me (be it happy, sad, or any other emotion) then the image has done its job for me. So basically I am a work in progress myself.

You make some excellent points and something for me to ponder over....hey that's a feeling...so your post has done its job for me.

Hey Rich,
You said "I would say that "The values/interests of those with the GREATEST POPULATION will determine the boundaries of any community." " The capitalized words indicating your alteration of my original statement. To clarify - communities can be group driven or leadership driven. Each model has a different structure. In a community driven model the values of the largest population subgroup will exert the greatest influence. In a leadership driven community the leadership determines who exerts influence. I'm not sure which kind of community Caedes is, I don't know enough about it's genesis or it's government, so my statement used the general term "most influence" to avoid making assumptions about what happens here. This online community would definitely make a marvellous subject for someone in a management degree to study. It's generally successful, generally low friction, has clearly met some needs that were out there and continues to evolve, it's amazing how few communities manage even those qualities for long. Caedes does good.
Mikel.

SatCom, do you still have my soapbox somewhere? You do? May I have it please? Yes, right over here-thankyou. (climbs up on soapbox)

Ahem....ladies and gentlemen. Overtime, my tastes have been changed on this site. I started out hating fractals-I had no use for them. Now,I have grown to love them. Many of them are now used as my desktops(hears many gasps from caedes members) and receive higher scores overall than do many other images (murmuring among the members). Another area I never cared for was structures and the interiors of structures. But some beautiful and rich postings of same has changed my tune on that(somebody runs for a thermometer). Crysophilax's postings on "images that are different" has had an impact on me, especially in the VB. I think because of it, I am a more discerning voter(crysophilax begins to cry). No, really it has. If your "different" type image is well composed, properly focused, properly exposed and the subject matter is not a plate of half eaten food, I am going to score it accordingly, much more so than I would have before this thread began (crowd roars). What say you?
(CRASH...falls off of soapbox)

Can a plate of half eaten food ever be a good desktop? I cannot imagine it would be. Pat, if you are looking at images differently and as you say becoming a more discerning voter then hooray! Spread the word, lets make Caedes a broad church where all good art is praised even if it is not to our own personal taste. Who knows, perhaps the next optical illusion picture may score higher that 20.

You know, that sounds like a great contest idea - the best image of half eaten food. Think about it, that would challenge the best of us and it might inspire some who don't normally bother with contests, it could even be FUN! I think it's a fun idea anyway. :)

*"(CRASH...falls off of soapbox)"^Miss Pat falls on my head....not ready for that one. Hand still wrapped, now head is oblonged shaped....heads off to hospital again where I am now on a first name basis.*

W-w-w-what did Mikel s-s-s-say? A contest for the best plate of half eaten f-f-f-food? Nooooooooooooooooooo,nooooooooooo,
puh-leeze, one plate of half eaten food on this site is enough.How could you suggest such a thing...I...I...(faint)

(Raises head from floor) Did I mention the plate of half eaten food was in Black and White? (head drops back to floor)

No peace offering needed Lyn...was just being sure I hadn't offended...

~~nibbles on cookie anyway~~

~~Trips over Momma's soapbox. Sits on the curb picking splinters out of his knees~~

Pat, I love your comment, to me it sums up the best of the site...growing as an individual and still enjoying the social aspect of the site.

~~Edit~~

Because I just saw Lyn's edit /\. Bit hard on yourself aren't you? Perhaps Memories of a Vase will never be displayed in a musuem (maybe it will, what do I know?)...but it showed you stretching your wings and trying something new and I agree with Chris that is something that should be encouraged and applauded. Even if, in retrospect, you think it 'failed'...well, isn't that really how we learn and improve?

Rural Smile
Warmth of a Mothers Love
Gulf Eagle
windy and cold
Austria 4
Waterdrop 4
...
All photos we moved recently.
Sameness? Really?

The problem comes from the very high number of images we have to decide to.
For example: the birds gallery. I see daily wonderful photos, but I must archive a lot of them to avoid to fill the perms with same captures.
In fact, the diversity depends on you... :-)

Pierre, thanx for the reality check. No one is blaming the mods, I think I can speak for everyone in saying thanx for everything you folks do and all the time you volunteer.

I think the crux of the conversation for the last 25 or more posts has revolved around HOW do we encourage greater diversity and acceptance of 'out of the box' images.

I've been following this thread, with a certain feeling of deja-vu (all over again). The solution, as Pierre states is that the "diversity depends on 'you'".

The hill to overcome, is that so many members, after having been fed positive feedback almost (or entirely) exclusively don't always react favorably to a real critique. Nor do they always change their habits, styles, etc.

A few posts back Lyn said "So - give the artists who produce the pretty sunsets etc some feedback with your opinions of them - no one will learn or change if no one directs them."

I can say, firsthand, been there.. done that. At best, I'm thanked for my honesty or refreshing insight, or at worst, told to (not in so many words) "buzz off". Or, my efforts are buried under an avalanche of sunshine and rainbows blown up... well you know where.

I covered this in an older thread which some of you might recall, titled "Knee-jerk reaction".

So again, we can beat this to death, or spend our collective energies actually putting our thoughts and opinions into action. I assure you, it's been debated ad-nauseum.. and no, not a swipe against this thus-far positive discussion. Just that, something can be discussed but so far, before it becomes just an exercise in debate.

Go forth, and re-educate your peers.

Well, I have been trying out some new ideas. I posted optical illusions. One archived after 10 days. I reworked a picture as a tryout for negative space. Archived after 8 days. So I get the message. Post pretty pictures of cuddly animals or sunsets. Anything else will just get archived. Even if they are popular (by the standards of my gallery).

I think that is a very broad statement Chris. I just checked my 'perms' - included are Still Life, People, Manipulation and sculpture and a couple of b/w are included.
One thing this discussion has achieved is to encourage some of us to look outside the square. Well, it has me and I named my upload yesterday accordingly. 29 views, 15 downloads. 6 comments, so it obviously has not had much impact as yet :)
A learning curve nonetheless.

Now I am off to eat half a plate of food lol

@LynEve. You are right. It was a broad statement. But the fact remains that when I tried something different I am rewarded with a short stint in the new galleries followed by an archive after just 1 week. However I shall persevere as you can now see with my latest post.

This medium of just words alone is challenging, isn't it?

Meanings and interpretations of said words ... well, fall on the shoulder of the writer for the most part, methinks. Take your time to compose your thoughts ... lest they be misinterpreted.

/\ Just a thought ... or, two.

crysophilax: your recent archived upload is Illusion 1
I said above that the site needs a certain diversity, but this one is not really a wallpaper IMO. You can find this kind of optical illusion anywhere on the web...
Link
Internet rip? Maybe you should re-read the CoC...

Also:
Illusion 2
and...
Link

"...Post pretty pictures of cuddly animals or sunsets. Anything else will just get archived."
I disagree. For moving through the perms, we look at :
* The image is not against the CoC
* The image is technically perfect or almost
* The image shows some originality if possible
* The topic is not too repetitive
Some others examples of recent moves?
A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, ...
Once again, Sameness?!?
"Criticism is easy but art is difficult..."

Note: oops! 'C' and 'G' are from crysophilax ;-)

it's hard to step out of your box and do "different" things when the results are met with discouragement. take this one..........http://www.caedes.net/Zephir.cgi?lib=Caedes::Infopage&image=jeenie11-1233287730.jpg and this one.http://www.caedes.net/Zephir.cgi?lib=Caedes::Infopage&image=jeenie11-1235405201.jpg

Link 1
and
Link 2

You know that the people captures are not really well appreciated on the site. Fortunately, the c-index is not the main criteria to move trough the perms... ;-)

I agree, Jen, stepping outside of your comfort zone and doing something different can be very discouraging and for sure your c-index will suffer...but to heck with that...treat it the same as though you were just starting out in the area that you do excel in and with practise and constructive criticism things will improve...also agree with Pierre that people shots are challenging and hard to impress the masses with...but they can be a fun challenge if you have the interest in trying and plugging away at it.

Well, it seems Crysophilax has deleted his gallery. I just wanted to check his images.

I too have noticed that Chris's gallery has been deleted. I truly hope that all is well and he has not left. I always found his pictures interesting, with unique perspective, and I valued the opportunity to see his work.

I think he may have left and had a feeling that might happen though I too am sorry to see him go as his comments were always thorough and insightful and his gallery unique and quite fascinating.

Agree. That's why two of his recent uploads were promoted.
But to post two internet rips just after and then to complain they were quickly archived was a true mistake...

Oh my. An unfortunate business.

Pierre said" People captures are not really well appreciated on the site.

This is true and it's not surprising. The REASON a lot of people come here is for desktop wallpapers (No Surprise) that are different from what they see around them as they are sitting at their computer. And what do they see around them? People, most likely. In addition a great portrait shot has truth in it, often challenging truth about a person's life and character, the kind of truth that requires emotional engagement - which I suspect is at odds with what most people looking for desktop wallpapers are after. The c-index tells us more about the voters than the image.
Mikel.

Hehe! That's true Mikel...

I'm also one of those people who can't put things into words too well, but I try. I've just come upon this thread, I've been unable to "take part" in many things computer related recently, but I would like to also add "my two cents worth". I've been in caedes since Dec 18, 04 and have always appreciated all the postings of the many artists on this site. I've seen the C Index in every range possible applied to every kind of photo, fractal and art. Many of the times the numbers may not have been all that high, but oftentimes the posting was fine, then again 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' so the saying goes. Art is different in every persons eye for sure.IMHO Times change things too. And we all have our 'favorites.' I think if I've learned anything it's to be open minded, and truly consider what is posted. I usually go to the posting, then to the persons name, to see where he/she is from and how long they've been in caedes. I love giving a critique because that gives the person something to think about, not just a comment, because anyone can say 'thats a beautiful sunset or what a nice colour' but to really take a moment and truly think about their creation, well, that gives a more personal touch. Each and every one has a different taste as to what they wish to share here as a wallpaper theme. That is what we are, a wallpaper site. But we are also artists each in our own way.
We all love to try out new things, and to look at new things. True, some of us might not like fractals, and some might get tired of flowers and birds etc. But with myself, I love 'something new, something unique'. I am amazed at the fractals here, the abstracts, the contests, the variety of all of the things posted. Maybe because I do canvas art, I don't know, but if we truly stand back and critique for the moment, we will most likely find at least a touch of interest.

In the beginning when I joined caedes, the photos were a bit different, seems they had more quality, but then again, that might be just my own viewpoint. Then there was a time a lot of the artists left here and joined other sites. Some belong to several other sites. Some are loyal just to caedes. So to each their own tastes I suppose. I have met some wonderful friends here, and that makes it twice as nice! I love seeing what the rest of the world is like, and what those people like to share with us. I'm not in the so called lime-light here, and I often need help, I've not been "recognized" and don't care that I'm not, but I love being in touch with all that goes on here. The contests get better and better, and I see how it motivates people bigtime. That shows something!

As far as the C Index itself, maybe it ought to be just something we can think on, and don't have to do, but if we want to, that would be ok too. Personally, I don't see the importance, altho there was a time I have to admit I loved it when I got a high score. I have had postings all the way from a low 12 or so to a high 92. At this moment I have over 40 pages of photos and art posted. Every now and then I take some off and add newer ones.

I go to other peoples galleries and ponder on their postings.
It's my way of relaxing when stresses are high. Giving critique is enjoyable, and very often I meet 'new' people because of it. One of my dear friends here told me once, when I was feeling pretty down about the index and about my own postings, that he knew I had met good friends here, that I have learned a lot and that he knows I enjoy the site, so why worry about all the numbers. He was so right. It's actually very simple to enjoy things here. Oh, sure, at times it gets a bit frustrating, but it passes. This thread is very interesting, but notice, only 'certain people' have made comments. I think we actually have a great foundation of people who sort of hold the site together by their thoughts and actions. We might not all agree, but at least we do communicate. Other sites don't have that kind of thing going.

So for whatever it's worth, I wanted to say these few things, and to me, the important thing is that people do view our postings, and that they download many of them. Isn't that what it's all about? What a great feeling to know there are people all over the world who enjoy seeing the very thing we posted on their computers! That to me, is the
ultimate, and not the numbers on the c index. Thanx go to all for all of the variety of comments here and other spots as well. And the Bravo goes to all of the artists here who try hard to share and enjoy others sharings. Verena