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Discussion Board -> Desktop Wallpaper, Art, etc. -> Elimination of C-index Petition

Elimination of C-index Petition

June
01/11/05 8:04 PM GMT
Elimination of C-index yes or no!
The images should be scored according to Artistic Merit.
Let us start up a petition to make changes to the c-index.!
Many of us have been conditioned through schooling that we tend to get a little sensitive with regards to the c-index as a reflection of the quality of our work as viewed by others.
I think it would be more effective for us to vote and to perhaps select from a list of artistic values on each image. This will help all of us to improve on our work and to see exactly what needs improving. A bullet system to check off would work beautifully rating each value out of 5.
Please tell me what you think of this.
Thank you,

JuneBug
0∈ [?]
Smile and the world smiles with you! AcrossTheWorld

Comments

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noobguy
01/11/05 10:17 PM GMT
I like the idea of multiple rating aspects. But I dont really have a problem with using c-index as a measure of an images success. Whether it affects how you view your own work is up to each artist. I wouldnt want to get rid of the c-index, the formula is good, and the results have worked here for a good while. But I do like the idea of multiple categories of voting, I like it on other sites, and I use it on my own.
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."
June
01/11/05 10:46 PM GMT
Tks Anthony and I guess the whole idea was to eliminate those feelings that some of the artists get when their index on an image is low. Believe it or not it is a problem, hehe.
JuneBug
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Smile and the world smiles with you! AcrossTheWorld
*caedes
01/11/05 11:00 PM GMT
I think I might add a feature that allows you to hide all c-indexes from yourself. =)
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-caedes
+mayne
01/11/05 11:36 PM GMT
Yes, a more artistic way of voting could be nice.
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Darryl
June
01/11/05 11:47 PM GMT
That would be wonderful for myself and for others, but I was thinking that we should be voting in a different manner with the end results being more satisfactory all around.
Trying harder to post nicer images as a result of gaining knowledge of what our weaknesses are.
Thank you
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Smile and the world smiles with you! AcrossTheWorld
*caedes
01/11/05 11:49 PM GMT
Well that's what the comments are for. There is only so much that a bunch of numbers can tell you. Why attempt to add more and more numbers (voting catagories) when the real problem is getting people to take the time to give _ANY_ input.
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-caedes
June
01/11/05 11:57 PM GMT
Since you put it that way, but then we need to encourage the comments and votes because without them the c-index suffers therefore the feeling of failure and discouragement. Perhaps this is why we have lost some of our members?
JuneBug
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Smile and the world smiles with you! AcrossTheWorld
noobguy
01/12/05 9:12 PM GMT
I think perhaps also, shy users would be willing to place their rating on different aspects of the image, than write a comment about those aspects.
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."
::bayoubooger
01/12/05 9:25 PM GMT
this like other websites has problems with voting or lack there of, too bad you can't force someone to vote before they get their download, at least you'd get some reaction...you get a lot of traffic in here, don't know how it took me so long to find this place..for that matter, how i did...LOL
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stuffnstuff
01/12/05 9:34 PM GMT
There seems to be quite a large number of members of this site who grab appealing images for unknown purpose and disappear never to resurface (except, of course, those who want more great graphics without paying). I do strongly see the positive side of this argument, but I am afraid that the number of votes will drop dramatically, which will hurt the artists in question more than at present.
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-those who hit rock bottom are too concerned with self pity to realize that they are lying on an anvil- Psalm 66:10, Job 10:8
d_spin_9
01/13/05 12:07 AM GMT
i think bubble kind of votes such as photo.net has would be nice. i dont care if its one or two fields, but personally i know voting like that is much nicer than having to click several buttons, then just having to wait for the same page to reload. i know personally i hardly vote, i probably leave twice as many comments because they mean more, and they are hardly more effort than voting.

double bubbles for such as origionality, and asthetics would be nice because although many fractals look quite neat, and deserve a good asthetics score, there are wayyyyy too many unorigional ones on the site, simply plucked from a program such as aphorysis.
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The heavens declare the glory of God, the skies proclaim the work of His hands.
June
01/13/05 12:16 AM GMT
Many great points have come up here. I sure hope that this ends up being of some help to improve this wonderful site.
JuneBug
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Smile and the world smiles with you! AcrossTheWorld
*caedes
01/13/05 1:34 AM GMT
What do you mean by 'bubble votes'?
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-caedes
trisbert
01/13/05 3:11 AM GMT
I don’t think the c-index itself is the real problem I think the problems are:

1, The reluctance of people to leave a vote. I expect many just want a pretty wallpaper so they grab and run.

2, I think a lot of people sort by date so they only see the newest images. The new images move down the list very quickly and never get seen by many.

To correct those problems I expect we would have to limit downloads to an upload pro rata system ie you can download a pic if you have uploaded a certain number or left x number of comments / votes. However that would impact on the quality of comments we do receive.
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There are three colours, Ten digits and seven notes, its what we do with them that’s important. Ruth Ross
trisweb
01/13/05 3:40 AM GMT
I haven't read any posts but the first, but let me just say that my initial feeling is that this won't work too well. I think perhaps it should be an option to leave more information in your rating as June originally said. For those who are too lazy, maybe just the 1-10 score is all we can expect.

My opinion on the subject is that we place too much importance on the ratings in general. The goal of people uploading images these days seems to be to go for the rating and the comments. And I admit, I do enjoy when I get a good picture and get to show it off to people, but sometimes I think that's all this site is geared toward. Maybe we need to rethink our priorities.

But I'm pretty ok with leaving the site as is and not thinking about it so much. It works decently; not the best, but better than most large art communities.
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noobguy
01/13/05 4:05 AM GMT
Not sure what he meant by bubble votes. As far as I know on photo.net, they have two drop down menus for voting. One for originality, one for aethetics. The use numbers 1-7 and put words beside them like, Bad, Good, Excellent. I use 4 qualifications for new images on my site. Originality, Overall Aesthics, Image Quality, and Subject. But my new image gallery is to give me a sense about how images affect people, err how they react to certain aspects about the image. I like knowing what they think about those specific qualities.
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."
d_spin_9
01/13/05 5:12 AM GMT
on photo.net you can go to some 'rate new images' page, then the votes are just little boxes, and once you check both of them it automatically jumps to the next picture. i agree it isnt so much about the rating, but to make it more effective it would be nice if it were a bit faster, and often i have indecision over what to vote because something can look good, but be unorigional, or it can be a really neat image, but a horrible picture due to bad exposure, bad workflow or something. it would be nice not to have to scroll through a menu longer than what shows on the page, then have to click a couple buttons, then hit 'back' then find a new picture to look at. this whole idea is probably alot of work to do, and i dont exactly know how it would fit into the existing layout, or how it would work with backward compatibility, but i know i'd vote alot more that way
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The heavens declare the glory of God, the skies proclaim the work of His hands.
noobguy
01/13/05 5:22 AM GMT
implimentation actually isnt very difficult, but it would change a few things, an average of the scores would be needed to keep the author list, sort by c-index, top new image, etc etc
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."
stuffnstuff
01/14/05 2:22 AM GMT
Wouldn't you want an average anyways? I suppose you could sort by originality or something, but only an average of all the rankings would expose an image for what it is. If you are going to use big words like "Aesthics", I strongly reccomend defining them as well. :-) I think that more fields would not only be helpful for mroe detail, but also mroe accuracy. Oftentimes if I just snap off half a dozen votes based on what my first impression is, I never stop to analyze them. If I think specifically about creativity or originality, I may realize it is a better picture than I first though; likewise, if I observe the effort or the perspective, I may realize that it isn't all that it was ed up to be (category fields used were random, not specific). Apart from the obsessedly dedicated, who will vote?

(Does this mean I shouldn't upload the Apophysis images I have been working on the past couple months?)
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-those who hit rock bottom are too concerned with self pity to realize that they are lying on an anvil- Psalm 66:10, Job 10:8
noobguy
01/14/05 3:57 AM GMT
people should know the definition of small big words such as aesthetics :-p
thats very good thought you have there. people probably will analyze an image more indepth if they are so subtly prompted to do so. good call man
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."
June
01/14/05 6:57 PM GMT
Thank you to everyone for having this discussion.
Now what are the chances in making some changes here?
JuneBug
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Smile and the world smiles with you! AcrossTheWorld
d_spin_9
01/15/05 9:05 PM GMT
you can certainly upoad your aphorysis images, many people really enjoy them.....im just sick of them;)
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The heavens declare the glory of God, the skies proclaim the work of His hands.
::bayoubooger
01/15/05 11:21 PM GMT
according to your profile, you haven't been on this this earth long enough to be sick of anything, reconsider your final philosophy on life...
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noobguy
01/16/05 1:44 AM GMT
i'm sick of pizza
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."
noobguy
01/16/05 1:49 AM GMT
and ramen noodles :(. but if there is an age requirement for personal taste, lemmie know and i'll start eating them again

then again, perhaps it is your philosophy that needs reworking ;-)
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."
Crusader
01/16/05 7:31 AM GMT
From my experience most people like to "grab what they can" without giving anything back. This might be a little crude generalization but that's definitely what's happening on similar sites to this. People like to download the images but very rarely even bother to leave a comment or rating. Forcing someone to do so, might not be the best option seeing as they will just click any random number to get away as quickly as possible.

Adding more voting options might also make the whole process seem more complicated that it really is and thus still discourage voting.
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- Let me show you the world through my eyes... Final Frontier
::CaptainHero
01/16/05 11:29 AM GMT
The c-index works fine and it is up to the individual to make what they will of it. We certainly shouldn't scrap it.

As for additional categories of voting, I fear this will lead to even more voter apathy.

In the past I have considered the idea of forcing votes for downloads, but apart from technical considerations, I'm not sure this would be beneficial - as already mentioned people would just click a random number or, worse, vote low out of spite.

If users are demoralised by getting low c-indexes they need to have a good look at themselves and ask to what extent this affects their self-worth and how much they respect others' opinions. It's not the end of the world if someone doesn't like your art. If anything, my experience on this site is that people vote too high. There are always anomalies, but low c-indexes are perhaps an indication that the image is not that good?

Regrettably, there is little we can do to encourage people to contribute more to image voting and feedback.

I wonder if it would be possible to introduce something under the Caedes Control such that members who wanted to could view more in-depth statistics on their images - breakdown of average vote, or even exactly who had viewed and voted on it (this would only work on future votes/views as currently I think it records the numbers only, not who voted (though how does the database know who had already voted, hmmm...?)) Anyway, optional stats might enable an artist to have more insight into image feedback. The emphasis would be on them to proactively chase image feedback, but that could backfire.

Another point: is downloading currently restricted to members only or not? And do 'views' include non-members currently? Just wanted some clarification.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
noobguy
01/16/05 12:09 AM GMT
anonymous members can view and download, and it counts. if they couldnt u would see much MUCH fewer views and downloads. Agree with both of you about the forced voting, but I dunt think that was proposed. Not in this discussion anyway. Voter turn out is an entirely different topic (one much harder to handle). I think that added categories would be good, the members already voting now would continue to vote, but their numbers will be more meaningful as they would be attatched to a particular aspect of the image.

Say now that an image has a c-index of 65, so what does that mean? Average votes were 65, that tells you nothing about why. And typically people dont comment about why. But if your votes were:
Aethetics: 99
Image Quality: 99
Subject: 99
Originality: 5
then you know exactly why that average c-index would be 65 (or whatever)
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."
June
01/16/05 12:16 AM GMT
Thank you and well said Anthony!
JuneBug
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Smile and the world smiles with you! AcrossTheWorld
::CaptainHero
01/16/05 1:47 PM GMT
So, what categories would be good?

Concept, Execution, Composition, Aesthetics. How about those?
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
June
01/16/05 2:10 PM GMT
Aethetics, Concept, Composition, Originality all sounds wonderful to me.
JuneBug
0∈ [?]
Smile and the world smiles with you! AcrossTheWorld
noobguy
01/16/05 4:37 PM GMT
you could replace subject with concept (thanks) and perhaps throw in composition, aesthetics, image quality is important with photographs but maybe not with 3d art, and originality is important.
so how about
Aesthetics
Concept
Composition
Originality
I'd like image quality for photographs (graniness, resolution, exposure, other tech aspects), I use it on my site, but I dunno how this would apply to 3d images. I think concept is perhaps better than subject but maybe bumps into originality.
June the Aesthetics, Subject, Image Quality, Originality came from the new images section of my person site. Thanks for liking it. Perhaps you can go vote on some of those images here hehe
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."
June
01/16/05 5:41 PM GMT
Points well taken Anthony and if you look above I have edited the selections that I think would be an asset to the growth of this site.
JuneBug
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Smile and the world smiles with you! AcrossTheWorld
Katz
01/17/05 4:44 AM GMT
I agree that some changes need to be implemented. I have such wonderful friends who support my work...but there are times, I see the C-Index and walk away feeling "unworthy" of being here. I'm no "Artist" by any means...but I try and most of what I've done is thru trial and error and a lot of helpful hints from those of GREAT talent...such as Mary, Joost, Pat, June, Sally and Dave.
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Hi I'm Sarah. My motto is if you like cats, you can't be ALL bad. :)
noobguy
01/17/05 5:47 AM GMT
but on the contrary, you are an artist
artist

n : a person whose creative work shows sensitivity and imagination [syn: creative person]

dunt sell yourself short
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."
::CaptainHero
01/18/05 8:45 PM GMT
I suggested 'concept' in place of originality.

I mentioned 'execution' because I see images with a good concept but poor execution and vice versa. As you say, this could give artists a more accurate picture than just one score.

Composition I think is essential with any medium.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
noobguy
01/18/05 9:06 PM GMT
Well, I think there are few concepts that are truly original. I think you can have an original image without having an original concept. I thought concept would better replace subject, because often times the subject represents the concept of the image, while sometimes an image may not have a clear subject, but will convey a clear concept.
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."
wuvit
01/20/05 10:09 PM GMT
I've come to think of the c-index as an indicator of how much the image matches the tastes and interests of the average caedes member.
Sometimes it matches my own appreciation of an image. Sometimes it seems undeservedly low or high.
But what's simpler than a single vote? Can you really expect members to do more when most of them probably just want to oogle pretty pictures?
I mean what's the average view : download : vote ratio?
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"A beginning is a very delicate time." - Hurk?!
noobguy
01/21/05 3:11 PM GMT
Yeah, I can expect them to do more. They do more on alot of other sites. Why slack for caedes.net when this is the site you care about most?
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."
::rustectrum03
01/21/05 4:35 PM GMT
but perhaps this is a site of slackers and that's why it's so popular :P...or maybe not.

I think_
Aesthetics - overall beauty;
Concept - what is the subject, was it a good one, was it original;
Composition - did the subject fit with it's surroundings, did something stick out like a sore thumb, framing, etc;
Execution/Technicality - focus, too much blur, image quality, etc;
_would be a good way of doing it
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-->"Black then white are all I see in my infancy. Red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me. Lets me see there is so much more, and beckons me to look through to these infinite possibilities. As below, so above and beyond, I imagine draw'n outside the lines of reason. Push the envelope. Watch it bend."--Lateralus, Tool
::Radjehuty
01/21/05 6:07 PM GMT
Well the only thing I have against C-Indexes is that it is extremely bias here. This site (not that it is necessarily a bad thing) is mostly geared towards photography. I find that if an abstract doesn't get lucky with an early C-Index of around 88 or 89, it really wont get much exposure and the c-index is basically Trapped as low as they might be. some of you might disagree, but this has been my experience.
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"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
noobguy
01/21/05 6:38 PM GMT
If you look at the image rankings and sort by rating you will find that the top is littered with photography (namely Joost's gallery). BUT, if you sort by c-index you will find that the top is mostly saturated with CG, alot of abstracts, (namely co2metal's gallery) This leads me to think that people are more apt to view the fullsize of an abstract, CG etc, and more likely to use them ask desktops. Looking at the numbers, I wouldnt say that CG is handicapped atall.
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."
bjb
01/21/05 10:56 PM GMT
I've removed my post in hopes that this discussion can get back to the issue at hand and important suggestions not be overshadowed by topics that need to be moved to another post.
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I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for. Georgia O'Keeffe
Katz
01/23/05 10:49 PM GMT
Maybe those of us who are worried about the C-Index...could all start our own website based on our own choice of qualifications and how things are voted upon.
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Hi I'm Sarah. My motto is if you like cats, you can't be ALL bad. :)
::CaptainHero
01/24/05 8:56 PM GMT
Nicely said
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
noobguy
01/24/05 9:00 PM GMT
gl with that
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."
nmsmith
01/25/05 6:47 PM GMT
For what it's worth, I'm not too concerned about C-Indexes. I had the interesting experience of getting a 100 on the C-Index when I first posted "Kodachrome Basin State Park." It made the top five - and actually stayed at 100 for a day or so. Now it's sitting at a c-index of 65. Did that change the quality of the picture? No, I don't think so. It's an OK picture. I wouldn't give it a 100 myself. I usually use the C-index as a general indicator - and you'll notice that I've deleted most of my stuff that fell below a 70. I'm waiting awhile longer to see what happens to the Kodachrome Basin picture - but it if stays below a 70, I'll probably delete it - even though it made it to the permanent gallery. I probably spend more time on Caedes than I should - but it has inspired me to experiment - and provides a forum for feedback. I've really appreciated that, and having access to the work you post as well. I run an open-access computer lab (about 100 stations) for Utah State University as part of my job. I've used your works as desktop wallpapers on those machines, and students are always commenting on how beautiful the photos or the cg work is. I refer them to Caedes, so I think I've added some to your membership over time. As I always say - "Have a great day." And thanks for sharing.
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+ppigeon
01/25/05 6:57 PM GMT
"Kodachrome Basin State Park"is a good example to what I always said about the c-index. The vote is variable according to the subject. You've more chance to receive a good score with a 'sunset/rise' photo than with a 'people' photo. However, to take a good 'people' photo is much more difficult than to take a sunset...
Nathan: the real value of your "Kodachrome..." is that it was moved into the permanent galleries...

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-Pierre-
*caedes
01/25/05 6:58 PM GMT
Well then thanks. =)
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-caedes
::rustectrum03
01/25/05 8:33 PM GMT
I don't think C-index is a problem or a bad way to categorize accepting or rejecting images to permanent galleries. But I think that the more factors that go into a C-index the more 'accurate' it can get. And I certainly think that the more feedback an author/composer gets the quicker they can grow and develop and overall the better they can get.
I know the place of comments is to usually point out the technical, aesthetical, etc problems that may have taken place in a pic, but how many of us can say that we would honestly write a comment that said, 'the amount of aethetics in this pic are below average' or similar without feeling bad about what we said? And how many of us actually point out how all the various factors that make an image good in every pic we view?
I certainly know I don't...but I try.
Perhaps these 'C-index factors' could even be made an option to where if we wanted to use them we could...and if not...not...

That being said I am certainly not about to code said proposals, leave the site or even be in the slightest bit upset if they are not taken, but I believe it may be a way to improve the site.
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-->"Black then white are all I see in my infancy. Red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me. Lets me see there is so much more, and beckons me to look through to these infinite possibilities. As below, so above and beyond, I imagine draw'n outside the lines of reason. Push the envelope. Watch it bend."--Lateralus, Tool
kjh000
01/30/05 12:10 AM GMT
Not considering every angle of this discussion I'd like to add my personal point of view in the general topic. C-index is nice and it's sure a boost if an image is well rated but I've seen too many images of great artistic quality getting rather poor figures (both counting number of votes and the actual rating) and I'm certainly not only talking my own stuff here... And the opposite is quite the norm too.

There's simply not any number of mathematical variables to put into a formula that could substitute a sound judgement about artistic quality of an image. This is also considered here at caedes and I think that is really good.

I do in general think there is a correlation between good ratings and good images here. But it's also in general a great deal of correlation between good ratings and popularity. Say, if someone should post an enormous amount of post saying to everyone "That's nice. Good work!" (Not really what I'd call constructive critique (since in fact it's saying basically nothing) but not everyone want's to get or give that I guess.) Then that someone will get a humongous amount of attention back from the rest of the community in the form of votes and comments. This is not bad. It's just how it works. And it is for me one of the reasons C-index is not of such great value once it comes to true artistic value. (Or just plain old-fashioned "good-wallpaper-value" for all that matter.)

Then there is the question of honest voting. There were apparently someone logging in with multiple IDs and voting for himself. How do I know it has stopped? How can I be sure there are not "multiple loggers" that deliberately vote poorly repeatedly on someone else's work just because they think they need to put them down?

I had the rather interesting experience of getting unusually many votes in a short period of time on some of my work and they were consistently very bad. I don't deem myself that good an artist so I could not possibly make such crap that at least the votes imply they are... ^_^ Misunderstand me right here... I understand if my work doesn't fit the taste of the masses. In fact, I love the fact that not everyone will like what I do. This is what makes art and artists and it makes this community a better place too. We create differently and perceive differently. Period.

It's not a problem that my stuff is (deemed) not good enough. In fact I'd like to know when my images are bad and more to the point I'd like some honest comments with real constructive critique about what makes them bad. And then I can try and make something about it if I get the time. (For me it's a bit tight atm though.)

But it would be a problem if I can not trust the votes for what they are. I'd like to have the official announcement of people breaking the code of this site in this remark. Or else I will continue to doubt whether or not I should actually regard the C-index at all.

A last note. Besides the fact that far too many people don't really look at the image before they vote (many if not most are just looking at the thumbnails) and the obvious notion that you can make the system more accurate in regards to various aspects of the piece, I don't think it's really necessary atm to make the system more complex then it already is. It's already a problem with far too little interest in voting... I think it's great ideas you have come up with in this discussion and I would certainly enjoy using new voting options but I fear it would not push the voting frequency the right way.

//End of loosely coherent rant.//

Cheers!

/Klas
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::bayoubooger
01/30/05 1:22 AM GMT
amen on the above, i 2nd that motion...errr emotion
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Grandeus
01/30/05 2:10 AM GMT
I must admit, the C-index system is faulty but then no voting system is 100% accurate (Florida cough cough) none the less I am not to worried about the C-index system, Its the Constructive critiquing of my images that help me out the most, Maybe a merit system based on Karma would be appropriate. Not for an artists image rank of course but perhaps rewording people for leaving Constructive comments might help to influence others to do so. This way those like myself who would rather get both positive and negative comments would be pleased.

Over all I like the C-Index, it drives me to push harder and become better. so i don't personally think its a problem with the voting structure but has more to do with those who just don't want to leave comments. I mean Realisticly ,as an artist, would you rather have someone say "This side may be to dark" or "Your colors blend well, but..." VS getting no comments and a high classification? If a merit system designed around Karma was implicated, I think It would really help out those who are struggling because they don't get helpful feedback. I think something like this would help us all become stronger artists here on Ceades.net.

Caedes put up a "nagging" page based on Voting(Wich is a push in the right direction) maybe the something simular can be done with leaving comments?

Just a thought based on my new experience here on Caedes.net...
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"All is Mystery, but he is a slave who will not struggle to penetrate the dark veil" -Gristali
427cobraAC
01/30/05 2:44 AM GMT
I'm new to the site but from what ive seen so far, is that alot of the uploads in the new images arnt being viewed that much, expescialy the ones on the bottom of the list, so some arnt getting a very high C-index rating just because no one really seen it.
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"I didn't know this game we were playing even had a set of rules."
::rustectrum03
01/30/05 4:12 AM GMT
On the positive side of things, Klas...in the last few months, based on what I've seen the view/download ratio has decreased so take that as you will.

we've had a bit of discussion and I believe the idea of forcing people to do anything...whether voting, commenting or otherwise...was rejected because it would cause just as many problems...if I have to vote, I'll just vote whether based on merit or not, or on commenting(unhelpful comments, etc).
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~~"If you truly love Nature, you will find beauty everywhere. -Vincent Van Gogh
kjh000
01/30/05 8:25 AM GMT
Hehe. ^_^ I know Brett. I was amazed to get over sometimes 20 bad votes in one day on several submissions in a row. But it's a doubtful bliss I'd say. :P

I agree the idea of forcing anyone to do anything is not a solution in this case (just like it is for most other cases). Like you said that question has already been dealt with.

It would be nice though, to have a good way to encourage constructive critique like you say Christopher but it just seems too hard to implement...

I agree with you too Chris. But I guess that's just how it works.

Thanks bb btw. ^_^
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::CaptainHero
01/30/05 10:48 AM GMT
Once again, Klas, you have expressed yourself very well. I always find your views interesting. What you say about the validity of some votes is certainly true, and not an angle that I had considered.

Forcing people to do things, as many have said, is unfortunately not a viable tactic, as it would almost certainly backfire. However, I like Christopher's idea about having a nag page for comments. If you voted on 'x' number of images without comment then a little polite message could pop up saying 'Thank you for voting on our images, however we notice that you have not commented on the last 'x' images. Our artists value your feedback, please could you take the time to leave some comments advising us what you liked and disliked about the artwork.' (or words to that effect - I just typed what came into my head!)

I don't know whether that would backfire at all. Like I said, it would have to be very politely and positively worded and also, I believe, not mandatory - i.e. it just pops up every so many images that you don't comment, but it doesn't prevent you from actually viewing/downloading/voting or anything.


What do people think?
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
kjh000
01/30/05 11:28 AM GMT
Thanks Matthew. :) I try my best not to mess up the way I put my opinions to words.

The idea with a message similar to the voting-reminder could work, but as a rule nagging is annoying. Hehe. Just kidding. Still tired I guess.

The problem is that there is some risk it would only amount in more nonsense comments and no constructive critique at all. There is a world of difference between more comments and more constructive critique.
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prismmagic
01/30/05 11:40 AM GMT
I think it should lean toward private comments and suggestion. The C index has become a mundane form of entertainment for me. When I here of someone complaining, is when I usually check out.
I think it has gone far past it original meaning as a rating system
I personally think it’s has lately just been used as away for people to say Nana”Nana”Nana!
I personally don't come here to post for the rating. I think I've only been in the top 100 once. And I really don't care. I enjoy the images and receive critiquing of my own work
Plus I enjoy the people on the site. I have made some good internet ties from the site, and that is worth more to me then any rating system.
Most viewed or popular downloads, should be the method. No scores, no ranking. Just top viewed.
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Art is the perception of the creator. Meaning is the perception of the viewer. acceptance is the perception of society.
noobguy
01/30/05 3:58 PM GMT
I think you should give me a dollar everytime someone votes or comments
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."
LiquidguitarJP
02/01/05 10:02 PM GMT
either I am REALLY starting to SUCK! or something is going on with the c-index..

I kind of like the c-index because it kind of gives me a rating on my images but my most recent image has a c-index of 28 ...as it may not be my best work I think it isn't THAT bad..

is there like someone going around giving everyone 0s??!?!?
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Gather ye Rosebuds While ye May, Old time is still A-Flyin' This same Flower that Smiles today, Tomorrow will be Dyin' My lonely image: The Eye of the Beholder's Cousin
+ppigeon
02/02/05 7:28 AM GMT
Don't worry about that, Sean. After a first value, c-index will be corrected soon.
Some have the contrary problem: c-index = 100/100 for first value... ;-)
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-Pierre-
scionlord
02/02/05 9:45 AM GMT
*ponders what to do to increase overall c-index scores* Whatever, all I hope is that people see and comment on my work, then maybe I can do better next time. I try to make sure that I do both when checking out everyone's images.
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius ...... Guardian of the Gates and Caedes Lavender
kjh000
02/02/05 8:08 PM GMT
Hehe. It's easy if you just create multiple users and vote on your self. (You could comment too I guess but I think it would get a bit too predictable to talk to yourself all the time. :P) I understand there are no big consequences as long as you are a reasonably popular member. ^_^

[Just kidding!!!]
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+ppigeon
02/03/05 8:29 AM GMT
Haha! You know that it is completely prohibited, Klas. Easy for Caedes to detect the cheaters... ;-)
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-Pierre-
+camerahound
02/03/05 9:06 AM GMT
Caedes is the all-seeing eye. Offenders who create multiple IDs and vote for themselves and others... disappear.
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Oncet seething seas ceaseth and twiceth the seething seas sufficeth us.
kjh000
02/03/05 10:26 AM GMT
^_^ I know... I heard there's a virtual dark alley somewhere in the backwater of cyberspace... You don't want to end up there I guess. :P
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Warrior_of_the_Eceni
02/08/05 1:23 AM GMT
I think a good way to get people to vote and comment more would be to make karma worth something. For instance, at a certain number of comments you would get a fancy doohicky next to your username, like the +, and::. also there could be a sort of "karma" for how many votes you have made, and that could be a different little doohicky next to your name when you reach a certain amount. Just my suggestion to get more feedback from the members.
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Fine vapors escape whatever is doing the living. The night is cold and delicate and full of angels Pounding down on the living. The factories are all lit up, The chime goes unheard. We are together at last, though far apart. -from “The Ecclesiast” by John Ashbery
::regmar
02/08/05 5:45 PM GMT
I'm hearing a lot of people saying we shouldn't judge our self-worth based on a bunch of numbers. Well that's fine, but I'm an amateur photographer who has been told by others that he has potential, and one of the things I get from Caedes is an indication of which of my images are "good" insofar as they will have extrinsic appeal. I actually use the c-index as a criterion to judge the quality of my works. Likewise others sort images by c-index to decide where they can best apply their search time when viewing images (new or otherwise.)

One of the things I've often noticed is that when I upload an image its c-index begins high, then after it moves back in the "new images" its rating begins to fall. If I am unfortunate enough to have my image featured on the front page of the site, its rating falls precipitously. I have had images run into the 90's for votes 1 through 25 or so, then drop into the 70's after five more votes and numerous downloads. This leads me to believe that votes may not accurately reflect an image's popularity.

Now having said that I have also noticed that people on Caedes have stopped posting helpful criticism under my images, but instead only post if they have something nice to say. This means either that my work has no flaws (which I doubt) or that they are afraid to post negative feedback for fear that I will retaliate by "voting down" their images. This is a worrisome trend.

I feel that a couple of things might help: 1) the option of anonymous posting of criticism (this may prove disastrous and start flame wars), and 2) the use of more than one c-index for each image. I like the second option better. If we can see, for example a curve indicating where the votes fell we might be able to see if one person is flaming our stuff. If we could see a number that indicates popularity based upon view-to-download ratio alongside our c-index it would help too. Finally considering the catastrophic effect it has on the c-index of my images I think I don't want any more of mine featured on the website front page.

Hey Caedes, you're not busy right now, are you (heh-heh)?

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ж Regmar ж
June
02/08/05 6:24 PM GMT
Reg, this is why I proposed the removal of the c-index and a different voting tool. We would know what area our images need to be improved upon. And the c-index would no longer be a factor. Why should it feel like a competition, it is not about that, it is all about posting excellent wallpaper. It is all about sharing knowledge with one another and growth. I liked the above suggestion about being recognized for the number of votes you put forth, showing an interest in the life and growth of Caedes.
Cheers,
JuneBug
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Smile and the world smiles with you! AcrossTheWorld
::regmar
02/08/05 6:56 PM GMT
You're right, June. C-index is just too narrow to really be useful. Likewise so is karma. I'm quite disturbed to see that people are afraid to post useful criticism for fear of being flamed. I have gotten that way, myself, and I recognize that it destroys the utility of Caedes' comment section. What concerns me about the bullet system (ahem!) is that it limits the criticism to only those things that Admin wants to allow. If we were to have a catch-all "overall quality" bucket for other qualities, it might become the c-index all over again, bec ause people don't want to spend the time to really use a more complex system.

I'm thinking that if I were asked to go through five bullets for each of the hundred or so images I vote on each week it might begin to occupy an inordinate amount of my time, and I might stop voting. Maybe we could in our profile choose our preferred level of participation - at a c-index level or more detailed? This way if we choose to do so we can get access to a more complex rating system, while the users who don't want to or don't feel qualified to do so can vote on an "I like it" or "I don't like it" basis.

As a professional web-programmer I recognize the complexity of what we're asking of Caedes. Let's be patient, people.

PS. I love your icon, June.

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ж Regmar ж
June
02/08/05 7:01 PM GMT
That sounds great, then those who would like to learn, can learn, those who would like to teach can teach.
Smiles.
JuneBug
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Smile and the world smiles with you! AcrossTheWorld
*caedes
02/09/05 1:34 AM GMT
regmar: You have some good ideas. I particularly like the idea of showing a histogram of the votes that an image gets, though that might just be due to my scientific background. I also hardily agree that the comments are in general way to nice and for the most part useless except as a small ego boost.
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-caedes
::bayoubooger
02/09/05 3:59 AM GMT
me thinks caedes is getting some wonderful insights and from what I've seen on the new works under construction I know someone is trying, but too much work will go into something that will still be unfortunately stagnant for the most part, it's like trying to get the majority to vote in the usa, tough job and ongoing...good effort though!
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::regmar
02/09/05 5:55 PM GMT
Don't get me wrong - I love the ego boost that all-positive comments generates, but some of the most useful advice I've gotten came from criticism of my and others' photos. I'm just a bit disturbed when I see pages of ebullient comments about how wonderful my photo is, then I see that it gets a 76 c-index. Since, as I stated above I try to use the c-index, I wind up with conflicting input, and have at times gotten a little (sheepish grin) upset about it.

I think that the problem I have here is that I want technically critical input from my fellow-creators but I want more general input from the consumers of my work. Does that make sense? The view-to-download ratio serves pretty well in place of the c-index right now from the consumers, but if we made it possible for fellow contributors to rate our work on a more technical basis we could get more useful input.

Perhaps you could limit the "voting ability" to only those people who upload??

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ж Regmar ж
Romane
02/09/05 10:39 PM GMT
Good morning

Being new to Caedes, it took me a little to get my head around the C-index. I find it interesting to see where my images sit, but find it unreliable because it is based on individuals taking the few moments to vote, and/or place something in their favourites etc. As an example, I have an image that is highly downloaded compared to views, but has yet to make the five votes to enter into the rankings <shrugs>. Just the way it is.

The C-index is useful, but not too much emphasis should be placed on it.

The comments, especially those that find areas that can be improved, are of more value to me. Not much good at it myself yet, still learning to look at work more critically and be able to define where it is good and what can be improved. Other's critique on my own work helps me to learn this function of being a contributing member.

Another alternative in terms of finding a viable rating for an image would be if there were a selection of competent people whose role was to check the images and provide an evaluation, both in terms of a scoring system, and in terms of useful critique. Not every person would need to provide this to every image uploaded; perhaps a ratio of percentage of images uploaded. Clearly, these people would be volunteers, and they would need to volunteer knowing and agreeing to the level of committment required. The C-index would become more something for those just wanting free wallpapers, while the artists would have a something of more value to their future uploads. This would not prevent anyone else from voting and leaving comments (it is important this continue; it is too easy to allow someone else do the work) but these would be kept separate.

Well, that's my ramble.

Romane
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::regmar
02/11/05 2:36 PM GMT
Fundamentally I agree with you, Romane. The problem is of course that none of us are willing to devote our lives to poring over the many images that come in each day and giving detailed criticism of each one. It would be a heck of a commitment, and I don't think anyone would be able to take it on.
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ж Regmar ж
noobguy
02/11/05 4:30 PM GMT
I would never vote for complete removal of the c-indexes. There are flaws in every system. The c-index does work. If your image is blatently amazing, it will recieve a high c-index. if not...
The question is just on making it as efficient as possible
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."

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