Caedes

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Discussion Board -> Desktop Wallpaper, Art, etc. -> The Old Classics

The Old Classics

Bromios
03/03/05 9:13 PM GMT
I know this sounds ridiculously offensive, and it is not my intention to seem to be personally insulting, but I feel overall that there are now far fewer pictures which immediately catch my eye. It may be that I have had too much of a good thing on Caedes, and that I have been spoiled and lost my early innocence, but I would like to have that feeling more often that comes when one discovers a truly timeless and memorable picture.
Anyone agree/disagree?
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Here the stone images Are raised, here they receive The supplication of a dead man's hand Under the twinkle of a fading star.

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kjh000
03/03/05 10:30 PM GMT
No I agree. We are flooded by mediocrities. Snapshots rated to the skies and lazy renders in a heap. ^_^ Now I sounded offensive, right? Not really my intention... There's just a tad bit too much of personal cults and favoritism here. (And lets not forget, there's a lot of poor bastards too who are trying their luck but don't get any ratings or comments no matter how well they preform. (Some can be truly brilliant! (But not everyone...))) But there are still a lot of goodies I dare to say. Just hard to find amont all the rest.
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+tbob
03/03/05 11:02 PM GMT
You think its bad now you should have seen it when there was no upload limit.
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kjh000
03/03/05 11:11 PM GMT
Hehe. That's true. ^_^
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Romane
03/04/05 12:16 AM GMT
Good morning

No, I do not think that your comments are offensive. A statement of fact is a statement of fact, and it is only offensive when a person decides to take it personally (i.e. an affront to their ego) instead of using it to seek for improvement in their own work.

I find this same situation on almost every site that have seen with desktop wallpapers, Caedes included. One of the many things attracts me here is that the poor quality images don't get kept, and the permanent galleries carry a selection of some of the best photography I have seen.

Am reminded of my opal mining days. It was said that of all the opal in the ground, only 1% has colour. Of all the opal that has colour, only 1% is worth looking at. Of all those worth looking at, only 1% is good opal. Of all the good opal, only 1% can be considered perfect. Of all the perfect opal, only 1% are so supurb, so excellent and beyond description that they forever burn themselves into your mind. I can still see perfectly, almost 30 years later, a set of three small opals another miner had found and cut to size and shape, red fire on a black background.There is no superlative.

Finding/seeing that supurb image means that we have to sift through all the other pictures, both good and bad. But I find it worth it. Thanks to Caedes, I have now a collection of top quality pictures for my desktop - but of all those, there are only about six, perhaps a couple more, which I would say are in the 1% of the 1% of the 1% of the 1% of the 1%.

A last point. I look at the improvement in my own work thanks to the comments and the critiques of the artists on Caedes (and thank you everyone for your patience), knowing that there is still such a long way to go before my work could be truly regarded as artistic; but I am on my way. How many of the other contributors whose work is not always up to standard only need the same encouragement to bring out their best, to see them begin to consistently produce good quality images that we can all enjoy. There are a couple of recent threads on this very subject - "Afraid To Give Negative Comments", and Negative Comments vs. Positive Critique". So, my personal opinion is that it is up to the contributors to work for an improvement in the quality of images that are uploaded by providing honest, encouraging critique.

I apologise for the overly long post, was just so many related things wanted to say. Will back into my cubicle again now <grinning>.

Enjoy your day

Romane
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Success is found by having the courage to let go of known shores.
::bayoubooger
03/04/05 12:52 AM GMT
Romane could not have babbled better, kudos my friend,,,
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"To err is human, to forgive Canine."
::RobNevin
03/04/05 12:53 AM GMT
Romane, at the risk of being complimentary ....well said.

RobNevin
PoorBastard, trying his luck.
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You're invited to tour my gallery ••• º¹º¹ºº¹¹º¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ººº
*caedes
03/04/05 1:40 AM GMT
Great discussion. I'd say that the next step after singling out a problem is to propose solutions. Any takers? I know that it is a very difficult problem since it is one which the moderators and I have struggled with from the begining.
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-caedes
+mayne
03/04/05 4:06 AM GMT
Caedes you don't look so good...you've lost all your color. Speaking of old classics;-)
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Darryl
kjh000
03/04/05 8:55 AM GMT
I think it was very well put too, Romane. Especially the part of the truly beautiful opals. I have an issue with the wrong kind of qualities being encouraged here though. The road you point towards only gets possible to travel if people really do give constructive critique and not just more or less substantiated praise.

It's like some people can't tell an opal from a plain piece of old rock at all... I guess this is ok though since people are different and should be so and subsequently value different things. It's the way things are.

I just don't get it though when photos that are barely in focus and have artefacts en masse get all the praise and sky high ratings but really nice work from other get no attention at all. (I'm not talking my own work here. ^_^) I'm just praying the popularity contests verging to personal cults stops in the new images gallery. Some take pride in not developing their skills you know...

ATM I'm "lucky" enough not to have time over to do anything creative or go on a photo session so I don't have to fight for the attention here. I do my best in my spare moments though to come here and give some feedback and hopefully some constructive critique to some of the pieces in the new gallery.

I'd vote for a reinstatement of the tougher snapshot policy as a temporary solution. I agree you perhaps can't just stop it in the upload phase. Perhaps it would be better to have a dedicated gallery where you are put during the first day in the New images gallery and simply get deleted after a month, no questions asked.

I guess it's too big a change compared to the current ways things work here though... The thing is that as long as the snapshots and unimaginative CGs have a chance to get rewarded like they do today people are just going to feel encouraged to continue to upload it. Perhaps these things will blow over by themselves... It's hard to say right now.
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::RobNevin
03/04/05 11:51 AM GMT
There are a few possible suggestions for improvements but we will need to break this down a tad.

To those who long for the return to higher quality images:

•••Are there concerns with the quality of the images that appear in the permanent galleries? •••

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You're invited to tour my gallery ••• º¹º¹ºº¹¹º¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ººº
pom1
03/04/05 11:55 AM GMT
i think that the quality of images in permanent galleries is decreasing.
maybe also the c-index's are getting lower, as less ppl vote, and view images, because there are so many of them...
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Philip. View my Gallery Here
kjh000
03/04/05 12:14 AM GMT
Yep, I'm concerned. Not really worried though. The mods are doing a great job as usual. I'm just waiting for the next big discussion though where popular artist will demand their work to be accepted to the permanent galleries. Some people get ratings well above 80 the first day you know. Who's the one to say that these images doesn't cut it?

And like Philip said above. Good images get low ratings and perhaps even too few votes to show a c-index at all... This doesn't in it self mean the images are worse though IMHO. It's increasingly difficult to sort though the stuff here though. (For me as a mere mortal, non-mod at least. ^_^) Only thing I know for sure is that it calls for common sense in large quantities.
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Romane
03/04/05 1:20 PM GMT
Good morning

Have just had to go out and buy a new hat two sizes bigger <laughing> Thank you for the compliments. However, to be fair, you need to be aware that the last 3 1/2 years I was a professional author writing technical manuals, and the employer trained up my already good natural skills with English. You don't want to know the number of deeply intense discussions (some would say quibbles <grinning>) we used to have about the use of a particular word in a tightly confined circumstance. I use past tense, as they transferred me to another area that I couldn't deal with and I subsequently resigned.

To answer the question put by Rob. I have no problem with the permanent galleries. However, am assuming that these galleries are equally up for review, just perhaps over a longer interval.

As for the point made by Caedes, I can only say what you already know - there are no easy answers. Caedes is only one place thaat is struggling with similar questions. Klas made a good point in addition to that about snapshot policy - the reward system. Perhaps an official reward system could be put in place for those that consistently leave quality comments on images, but this may (ok, ok, will) be unweildy in practice. Another variation on this could be to leave positive feedback on the profile of a person when it is seen that they have given good feedback to the artist, and any of us can do that - a way of encouraging quality comments. Perhaps something like "I read your comments on such and such an image. I found these well structured and helpful to, not only the artist who contributed the image but also to others who view this image. Keep up the good work." This might then result in less glowing comments appearing on poor quality images. I can give an example where this focus on positive encouragement was used with a lot of success in another forum to maintain order, retain a good atmosphere and discourage bad behaviour, but that would take us off topic.

Enjoy your day

Romane
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Success is found by having the courage to let go of known shores.
::RobNevin
03/04/05 1:35 PM GMT
Re. Permanent Galleries

What I understand (and I invite correction) the C-index is used as a rough guide alone and is not the exclusive determinate whether an image is promoted to the permanent gallery. The New Images gallery is the primary digester, where people can post, seek correction/suggestion, delete their works at will and allow the C-index (guide) to normalize. We've all seen or experienced a posting with early ratings in the 90's, only to see them normalize in the 80's, 70's or lower. This is all good.

If the opinion is that the quality of the images in the permanent galleries is decreasing (not an opinion that I share), this becomes a subject for the ImageMods to respond to as it is their final assessment which determines the standards and durability of the images on the site. I think they're doing a great job, particularly for what they're paid! *wink*

If one is satisfied that the permanent galleries contained the 1% of the 1% of the 1% of the 1% of the 1%, and this is their interest, then this is where their time is best spent.

Following Romanes wonderful metaphor, for those who enjoy opals but have no interest in mining, fine polished products await in the permanent gallery. No common sense required.

There is no requirement to participate in New Images and the separation of wheat from chaff is a natural function of the site that will continue. Some enjoy mining, sharpen and hone their personal skils through the process... the site welcomes them and the seekers of excellence alike. The site provides a rich bounty of images and choices for all.


Kindly,


Rob
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You're invited to tour my gallery ••• º¹º¹ºº¹¹º¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ººº
::RobNevin
03/04/05 1:48 PM GMT
It is possible, and I may be addressing this to Caedes, to have a field added to the User Information, where the member can indicate their feedback preferences? If this information was captured, then posted with their images (below the image and above the comment section) posters might have a way to better shape the feedback they're looking for.

If a member does not want to provide a feedback profile, they can use the space for a short personal bio or simply leave it blank.

This could provide useful for those who prefer not to receive simple praise or for those who are actively seeking help in their works. The message, as their experience on the site increases, can be changed to suit their maturing needs.

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You're invited to tour my gallery ••• º¹º¹ºº¹¹º¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ººº
::RobNevin
03/04/05 1:52 PM GMT
Romane, compliments to you for the care and quality of your writing. I'll send you a headhorn (larger cousin of the shoehorn) if you find future trouble getting your head through the doorways. *wink* I'm sure it won't be required.

I VERY much like your suggestion of a reward system to honor those who are providing encouragement and wonder if you might consider breaking that out as a separate discussion.

Kindly,

Rob
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You're invited to tour my gallery ••• º¹º¹ºº¹¹º¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ººº
kjh000
03/04/05 1:53 PM GMT
Well said, and I agree on most points. [Edit: I wrote this after your first post above today.] I'm happy to know I don't need common sense anymore. This is a true relief. ^_^ 80 or 70 is still quite high in my book. I'm not seriously discouraged unless I get below 50... A "normalized" rating of 80 for an image that is not even partially in focus or full of artefacts still puzzeles me though.

No worries, I accept that people think this is how it should be... (They must if this is what happens all the time, right? << No common sense required...(?)>>) I certainly agree that there is no problem with the permanent galleries but I already said that earlier. (I'm always happy with the work the mods put in here, as usual they don't get enough praise for their work though.) I actually don't spend that much time there though. I only get the time to brows a few pages of new images per day and barely just that.

Romane, I like the idea about giving some kind of positive feedback on good comments. I'm feeling grumpy sometimes though about totally meaningless comments that I would like to give a fat 0 in rating... ^_^ But it's obviously better with just rewarding good ones...
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::RobNevin
03/04/05 2:07 PM GMT
Perhaps I could express it as "common sense it optional" *smile*

Klas, the "blurry 80's" is a mystery that we share and one that must be a daunting problem for the ImageMods. We lean heavily on them to move the images from democracy to reality.


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You're invited to tour my gallery ••• º¹º¹ºº¹¹º¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ººº
kjh000
03/04/05 2:21 PM GMT
I don't agree with the idea of refusing people free commenting at any rate. This is a wallpaper site and people post their work here for everyone to watch and comment on. If you can't take an honest opinion you have nothing here to do IMHO.

If you only want more or less well deserved praise you can get it in other ways. This is not a safe-haven for egomaniacs last time I checked. People that can not value constructive critique needs to sort out to themselves what it's all about (for them). If you don't want to grow and learn new stuff to improve your work this is the wrong place to post I'd say... This place should not be a personal snapshot gallery even in the new images section I think.
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kjh000
03/04/05 2:24 PM GMT
I'm sorry I wrote while you posted again. I don't understand the last sentence in your last post quite.
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::RobNevin
03/04/05 2:36 PM GMT
Klas,
People should be free to write whatever they wish, we agree. Posters might have a preference as to the type of comments they wish to receive (for example, some have said they tire of empty praise and would prefer no comment). Those writing comments can choose to abide by the preference or ignore it.

In all cases people should be free to comment without exception.
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You're invited to tour my gallery ••• º¹º¹ºº¹¹º¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ººº
kjh000
03/04/05 2:40 PM GMT
Sure. Np then. :) Now what does "We lean heavily on them to make move the images from democracy to reality." mean?
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::RobNevin
03/04/05 2:45 PM GMT
Klas, presuming you're writing to me, you rightly questioned my last sentence:

In context it read: << Klas, the "blurry 80's" is a mystery that we share and one that must be a daunting problem for the ImageMods. We lean heavily on them to move the images from democracy to reality. >>

The last sentence in other words: Some images find their way to C-indexes in the 80's for reasons that may not be clear to a critical eye. For any of many reasons a blurry image (distinct from soft for artistic effect) can score high. If left to democracy alone (pure votes) they would be promoted to Permanent Galleries. They're not. We lean heavily on the judgment of the ImageMods to determine, irrespective of C-indexes, whether an image is a keeper or not.

I could be wrong.
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You're invited to tour my gallery ••• º¹º¹ºº¹¹º¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ººº
kjh000
03/04/05 3:06 PM GMT
No, in that case you are right IMHO. [Edit: But democracy sounds a bit more positive for that phenomenon then what I feel proper. The sound judgements of the mods are needed, like you say, to make it all work propery.] But then again that's just my opinion too. ^_^ I thought it could be interpreted like that but I wasn't sure. Hehe... Sure I can buy artistic effect in some cases... but not really (obvious) artefacts and faulty compression or size-changes.
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mesmerized
03/04/05 4:09 PM GMT
Pardon me for interrupting this intellectual discussion gentlemen, but after reading through these comments and on another thread (Afraid to give negative comments) it occurred to me that perhaps part of the problem lies in the fact that the casual surfer at caedes is encouraged, and in fact, required to become a member after half a dozen downloads or so. To gain continued access to the images, perhaps many join, but have no skill or knowledge and this is resulting in less constructive criticism and an influx of poorer quality images. Perhaps the thing caedes should do is modify the page somehow (?) where people are required to become a member..perhaps with the question, do they intend to participate actively or not...if not perhaps they shouldn't be able to upload, leave comments or vote... and another option, mentioned in the past, is to limit the uploads even further so more people will finely tune their images beforehand...just a thought or two.:Pat.
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"What's the earth with all its' art, verse, music, worth--Compared with LOVE, found, gained, and kept?" (Robert Browning)
kjh000
03/04/05 4:54 PM GMT
Hehe... It's a bit radical maybe... I'm not sure it's possible to make such a system work or if it would have a beneficial effect at the problem(s) at hand.
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noobguy
03/04/05 5:00 PM GMT
If you want a good selection of high quality images, just head over to my personal gallery. That is where the 100% 100% 90% 90% rule is in affect. Please click here for a tour of perfection.

Problem solved - you are welcome
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."
mesmerized
03/04/05 5:26 PM GMT
haha, cute noobguy...but actually, I took the tour and you do have a pretty decent collection there...I notice you keep a small gallery...is that your general practice?...I do too and here again another thought...limiting the number of pages per member would perhaps result in more well thought out uploads...those longer term or more experienced members being allowed larger galleries, for example..getting back to what I was saying before...I realize this is a wallpaper site and as such you want lots of visitors and therefore don't want to restrict membership...I'm only pointing out that perhaps some guy out in Hooterville somewhere who just wants some "purdy pictures for his 'puter" and maybe doesn't have the foggiest idea what a fractal is and never takes any photos except of his hound dog, is bound to be "ooohing and aaahing" over everything, and if he does upload, it will probably be a pic of his hound dog...personally, none of this (criticism etc.) matters a lot to me, but I understand where some quality feedback is beneficial, and I do feel for the image mods who must have one hell of a job sifting through the thousands of uploads...in the final analysis, some type of limitations seem necessary, and as the site continues to grow, it seems to me those limitations may have to become stricter..:Pat.
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"What's the earth with all its' art, verse, music, worth--Compared with LOVE, found, gained, and kept?" (Robert Browning)
kjh000
03/04/05 5:44 PM GMT
Hey! What a coincidence... I'm from Hooterville too. lol!

(Sorry couldn't resist that one.)
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mesmerized
03/04/05 5:49 PM GMT
haha...you're cute too...anyways, that's about all I have to contribute to this discussion...hope it helps in some way.:Pat.
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"What's the earth with all its' art, verse, music, worth--Compared with LOVE, found, gained, and kept?" (Robert Browning)
mesmerized
03/04/05 7:19 PM GMT
oops...thought I was done but I'm not...an afterthought...what about the idea of posing the question to non-members when they decide to become a member, if they plan on contributing with uploads...if they say yes, they are advised to vote and offer both positive comments and constructive criticism where they see fit...if they say no, they can still comment and vote and even change their mind at a later date if they want, but in the meantime, some little symbol is beside their username...like when someone contributes financially...this way, if I happen to get a comment sometime from someone who tells me "that's the crappiest thing I've ever seen" and I see they are a new, non-contributing member, I may not feel too bad, or if they "ooh and aah" too much I won't get a swelled head, but if someone like Pierre for example, tells me my image is pretty crappy, or good, I will stop to consider where it's coming from...not that he would be that blunt, he's much too polite, but you get the idea...just another thought...O.K. I'll shut up now.:Pat.
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"What's the earth with all its' art, verse, music, worth--Compared with LOVE, found, gained, and kept?" (Robert Browning)
noobguy
03/04/05 7:26 PM GMT
yeah I keep a small gallery here, I try to upload good desktop images. hence why my caedes gallery is full of digital art while my personal gallery is 90% photography
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."
+Piner
03/05/05 12:25 AM GMT
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The work of art may have a moral effect, but to demand moral purpose from an artist is to make him ruin his work. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe - 1832)
::bayoubooger
03/05/05 12:27 AM GMT
You people need to lighten up, just a tad. Not every picture posted can be a true wallpaper, but there's something you can learn from all the photos you see, if you look at the content and learn from what is posted, you get some idea of where the person is coming from and what they are trying to convey. Don't let your ego override your a^%, you can find something in a pitiful image if you just look, if not it is gone in however many days. I am not a pro and most here are not either, but I don't like to see the people who know what they are doing taken down by anyone's critique for the sake of a post. This is a good website to live and learn, live and learn...geez !
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"To err is human, to forgive Canine."
::RobNevin
03/05/05 12:58 AM GMT
*joins the line*
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You're invited to tour my gallery ••• º¹º¹ºº¹¹º¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ººº
+tbob
03/05/05 8:07 AM GMT
Desktops are about all I make,in fact they are useless for anything other than wallpapers.I guess a guy could print my pictures out and use the printed pictures for trash can liners or cut holes in the paper and use them for masks to scare little kids on Halloween.
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::RobNevin
03/05/05 11:13 AM GMT
+Piner.

Is the C-Index distribution provided above (aka the "all that" bell curve) the amalgam of all images on the site or just those in permanent galleries?

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You're invited to tour my gallery ••• º¹º¹ºº¹¹º¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ººº
Romane
03/05/05 11:55 AM GMT
Good morning Rob

"I'll send you a headhorn (larger cousin of the shoehorn) if you find future trouble getting your head through the doorways"

I don't think I'll have too many worries - my family is pretty good at deflating me when I become too overweening <laughing>. But just in case...
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Success is found by having the courage to let go of known shores.
mesmerized
03/05/05 1:01 PM GMT
You're absolutely right bb, many images may show a great deal of merit and you can learn something from them but don't necessarily make for good wallpaper...I personally have no objection to them...the only reason I 'appear' to criticize is because as I understand it, this is first and foremost a wallpaper site with the objective of turning out some top notch wallpaper to download...as for c-index etc. this is not a competition here. Some worry about it too much. Finally, my apologies to any who may have been sensitive to my colorful description of the guy who's just looking for some "purdy pictures for his 'puter"...no offense intended...I was just trying to convey that anyone and everyone may stumble onto this site and become a member and some may not have the wherewithal to contribute constructive criticism or quality images. I include myself here, being quite inferior amongst so many talented people.:Pat.
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"What's the earth with all its' art, verse, music, worth--Compared with LOVE, found, gained, and kept?" (Robert Browning)
Morwyn
03/05/05 6:23 PM GMT
Excuse me for butting in. I am not a contrubuting member yet. I hope to be someday. I AM an artist. I design bead jewelry. I DO have the ability to judge whether am image is good or not. I find some of the comments in this discussion elitest. I came here first looking for "purty puter paper", but found instead a community of artists. Some of them very good, some not. I do not have the kind of income that allowes me to purchase fancy cameras or computer programs. I have to make do with what I have. Some members have been very kind in sharing software with me and I greatly appreciate it. I am working hard to learn how to use it. To say that some comments are without merit is ridiculous. All comments are worth reading. The dullest of people will not be interesting in commenting. They will just download the picture they want and leave. Try to listen to people, they may not know the right words to use, to critique your image, but at least they are paying attention to it.
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mesmerized
03/05/05 7:05 PM GMT
Morwyn...I DO hope you have not misunderstood any of my remarks...again, my apologies for any unintended offense...personally I am thrilled to get any and all comments...I am merely tossing out some suggestions to some on this discussion thread who seem to want more technical feedback or who take exception to the glowing reviews they see on images they feel unworthy...I agree with what you've said, being just an amateur myself who takes more bad ones than good ones.:Pat.
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"What's the earth with all its' art, verse, music, worth--Compared with LOVE, found, gained, and kept?" (Robert Browning)
+Piner
03/06/05 2:02 PM GMT
RobNevin- It includes the "New Images" and the "Permanent" galleries. :c)
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The work of art may have a moral effect, but to demand moral purpose from an artist is to make him ruin his work. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe - 1832)
Bromios
03/06/05 9:55 PM GMT
Well I think that the C-Index distribution graph has just solved the mystery of the "blurry 80s." I think the problem may stem from the common view that to vote "1" on a picture is pretty damning, while a "10" is fairly high quality. The "10" rating should be described on the drop-down menu as "perfect" (perhaps), then maybe people wouldn't feel so bad when they rate pictures with a "5" or "6".
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Here the stone images Are raised, here they receive The supplication of a dead man's hand Under the twinkle of a fading star.
::RobNevin
03/06/05 11:03 PM GMT
Bromios: ..What you suggest could have an effect if vote cast was the only factor in the C-index formula. As well revealed in other discussions, it's not. This may help explain why the current voting menu describes 1 as "bad", 5 as "average", 10 as "good" <-- not perfect.

Even if you had an armful of 10's ...it would help, but not assure a high c-index once the calculation is weighted by # of views, # of downloads, # of times stored as local favorites plus whiffle dust from Caedes wand.

In the end, the C-index is subjective, provided as a guide, not a rule and guaranteed to be better than Karma as an indication.

To accomplish what you suggest, you'd have to shape the minds of the masses. Good luck with that. ;)



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You're invited to tour my gallery ••• º¹º¹ºº¹¹º¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ººº
Bromios
03/07/05 7:32 AM GMT
They will be like clay under my fingers...
*starts prodding nearest person in the head*
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Here the stone images Are raised, here they receive The supplication of a dead man's hand Under the twinkle of a fading star.
noobguy
03/07/05 3:38 PM GMT
rob-cindex is not weighted by number of favorites, think of favorites as extra credit on your test, you can still get a 100 without it :)
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."
::RobNevin
03/07/05 4:42 PM GMT
Anthony (noobguy):

I quote for MY correction your post in the the discussion entitled "What is a C Index?" You described it well, I misinterpreted the value of the favorites in the equation.

>>>
Re: What is the C Index? The c-index is a measure of the success of an image on caedes.net. The c-index score is based on what users vote on the image and also how many users viewed the full size as compared to how many saw the preview. When people add your image to their favorites it also helps the c-index. So like I said, the c-index is nothing more than a number measure of sucess of an image on this site.
>>>

If an image received straight 10's ... but had a poor view/download stats .. it would score less than 100, correct?

Presuming this is correct the point I was trying to make could remain valid...the problem will not be corrected by changing vote counts alone.

I'll correct my error above. Thanks for your help on this.


Rob
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You're invited to tour my gallery ••• º¹º¹ºº¹¹º¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ººº
scionlord
03/07/05 6:31 PM GMT
hmm....after taking a break to read all of the above posts (tries to blink...needs water), I agree with most of the posts. The images that I post are what I consider to be 'good enough' to put on this site, so you can have a look see.

I have instigated a bit of a cull on my stuff at the moment as some of the images can be improved upon now that I have taken on board the various comments that people have left. I also take note of the images that other people have posted, and I have considered that some of my work could be better.

However, as with Blueness which is linked below my sig, there is work that I rate quite highly, yet seem to languish in the nether regions of the site due to poor voting (if any) and few (or no) comments.

I don't know if that is due to the large number of images that are posted, or due to laziness on the part of a lot of people.

However, I agree that it is unlikely that we can do much about it....(ponders electric cattleprods as incentives), though I like the idea of having contributing members being able to vote, and non-contributing members merely being able to download. Perhaps limited downloads is a way of doing things?
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius ................. Pieces to Ponder : Earache , Vortex 3 , Blueness
*caedes
03/17/05 1:33 AM GMT
Just go to a gallery, sort by date, and then go to the last page.
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-caedes
nmsmith
03/17/05 1:48 AM GMT
Wonderful comments, all. Rather than rehash any of this, let me propose a couple of solutions...

1) Caedes and the image mods could choose to be more strict about what they allow to be posted based on an agreed upon set of rules or principles. It could be posted on the upload page very clearly that a post may not make it and get a "rejection slip" so to speak, and also the rules which determine acceptance or rejection posted there as well.

2) I've heard a lot of complaints about people not taking time to vote on images, but that could be used as criteria for leaving a post on more than x hours. Based on your experience, you set a vote level that would eliminate most of the poorer submissions within a day or two (or whatever you set) of being in the new images gallery. Usually those who are really involved in Caedes do take time to vote on images that really impress them. This way, images that make it through this initial weeding out would stay in the new images galleries until the mods chose to make them permenant or let them die.

3. An alternative would be to include a checkbox on any new image gallery post that says something to the effect, "I consider this image to be a candidate for the permenant collection." Again, you'd have to determine a limit, and may want to link to a set of rules or principles of the kinds of images you hope to retain.

4. The c-index could be used as well to automatically weed the new images collection. One problem I've seen with that is that all the users who are on Caedes just to grab images (but don't take time to vote or comment) most often can take a great image out of the top five and drop the c-index to a low score.

5. I probably like this best, and that is to understand that the new images gallery is the "work area" and those who are looking for opals should go to the permanent gallery - the museum pieces. The new images area is the mine - so you may have to do a little digging there.

I think every artist gets so involved in his/her own work when it's first created that it's good to have an outside opinion. I know on my own work I've posted some things I thought were pretty good - but later on thought to myself, "Why did I ever post that one? It's not nearly as good as some of my other work." - and deleted it. A couple of them were even in the permenant galleries already.

Anyway, I throw those ideas out for your consideration, for what they're worth.
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+Samatar
03/17/05 2:14 AM GMT
No. 1 is a nice idea in principle, but it would be very difficult to develop a set of rules which clearly specify what is "good" and what isn't. Basically this is based on personal judgement, and if we accepted or rejected images based on that it would lead to all sorts of problems, claims of prejudice etc. We have already had several very heated debates on why some images make it to the permenant galleries and some don't. Even the idea of rejecting snapshots was discarded in the end, because it led to too many upsets and it was too difficult to clearly specify what constituted a snapshot...
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
kjh000
03/17/05 6:07 AM GMT
Interesting ideas, Nathan. I don't have the time to comment on everything right now. I just want to know, as a comment to what you said Sam, if there could be an exception for poor image quality. I've seen loads of shots that have been improperly post processed, probably resized beyond what should be done. Those are full of artefacts and jagged edges. Sure I agree to some point that you need to get the feedback to learn and correct such problems but that is not always what happens nowadays...
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::Radjehuty
04/18/05 5:58 AM GMT
I Agree about the the quality...I think that the reason why I'm not surprised and rather disappointed lately is because I now know how to make these. Before I was in awe at how much work must have gone into it, and the incredible designs, now that I know how to make them, all I think is...Ohhh yes the Julia family or Ohhh a Spiralized batch formula. Now That I know exactly (for the most part) how they are done, It seems to have lost its spark for me.
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"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
::philcUK
04/18/05 9:42 PM GMT
I apologise if someone suggested this already in this thread - I kind of zoned out of it a little while i trawled through it...would it be beneficial to introduce a tiered level of submission galleries as in a new images section for work people are happy with and require critique on, a Work In Progress submission gallery for pieces people have run aground on and require more instructive feedback rather than 'thats great' or 'thats crap' and finally a personal gallery restricted for images that have no real broad appeal other than to share between friends (pets, family snapshots etc.) and are only viewable by accessing the author's gallery.
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"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
::CaptainHero
04/19/05 11:12 PM GMT
I don't know - a lot of these suggestions seem to rely on the very thing that is absent in the first place - namely people's ability to engage their brains before uploading any old image. Is the type of person who uploads endless reams of rubbish going to take the trouble to participate in and differentiate between some of the subtle options we are suggesting?
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
::philcUK
04/19/05 11:36 PM GMT
true enough - maybe the mods could make last years naff image cull a more regular event then to discourage and weed out the dross.
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"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
::CaptainHero
04/20/05 1:10 PM GMT
Yes, that would be welcome.

Like many others, I have thought about the excess upload problem before - too many sub-standard images, even allowing for brand new members and those trying to improve (as are we all!) The debate as ever is what to actually do about it. I would like to see upload limits reduced slightly more, but on it's own this is insufficient and also a little authoritarian (though sadly this is sometimes required).

One though that struck me is this: although there are exceptions it is often notable that many of those commenting too effusively on images that are perhaps only average (or worse) are those people who themselves could probably do with exercising more care with their submissions. This creates a vicious circle whereby artists upload images and then do not receive the critical help that they deserve due to an ocean of comments such as 'brilliant! 10/10 and into my faves.'

This is an unfortunate situation for those artists doubtlessly wishing to improve their work. Perhaps a number of measures are required:

1) A further restriction on uploads - 'x' images per week rather than per day.
2) A restriction on the number of favourites that a member can have to stop the facility being overused.
3) A restriction on the total number of images that a member can have in their own gallery.

Also (as a sort of afterthought) how about a facility (now that Caedes is recording the data) to see on someone's profile what their average vote cast was?

Anyway, these suggestions (and they are only suggestions) whilst a little unpopular in some quarters, would surely lead to people taking more care about what they upload, what they choose as favourites and the quality of images they leave in their own galleries.

These measures could be used in conjunction with some of the suggestions above - for example, Phil's suggestion about tiered submission levels.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
scionlord
04/20/05 1:53 PM GMT
hmmm. Interesting ideas CaptainHero. thoughts in order of suggestions

1. Nice idea.

2. Define overused. I have a lot of favourites purely because I didn't always have access to a computer. As and when I got to my own I was able to download some. Sort of a storage area is my use. I don't know what other people do with it.

3. What do you limit the images regarding? c-index, rating, age? I tend to have my images on until they are either culled or placed in a gallery. If culled, I try to improve them, and post for comments. This way I can improve my skills on the programmes.

4. Average vote cast is a good idea. However I vote differently depending on what image. I might give a 10 for a stunning image. I might also give a 10 for someone doing a concept or first post in a new programme that is very good or has significant potential. Does anyone else do this? Does that mean my voting is bad? Would that affect the number of images I could upload?

I agree with Phil that a 'Work in Progress' / 'Help I can't do anymore with this image, can you assist?' is a good idea. That could link in to the other discussion with regard to collaboration work. That way work can be accessed and the the completed work posted in the appropriate gallery.

I believe my work has improved considerably because of the comments that I have received, and by the comments of other people. Sometimes you need 'naff' images in order to improve. After all, they will be culled at the end of the time period anyway.
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius ................. Pieces to Ponder : Blueness
::drgibson
04/20/05 6:13 PM GMT
I hope you don't mind if a new old guy chimes in.

I have to agree about some of the posts and some of mine fit into the mediocre category. Part of the problem is as individuals we post what we consider to be works that are above our average of may have a subtle effect that is too subtle.
I have images that I posted for there entertainment value as apposed to there quality. I don't intend to leave them but I felt like sharing them with the community.
I also have some images that I am befuddled that they are not doing better. They tend to be my earlier post but I feel are some of my better shots!? This is the slippery slope of taste verses quality.
I agree that we need to do something about the lower quality images. I f they don't retain a certain c-index or cannot acquire a c-index after a set time maybe they should be purged by the user who posted them.
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Capturing for infinity that which only lasts for a short time.
::CaptainHero
04/20/05 6:18 PM GMT
Yes, I agree with the 'naff images in order to improve' - we all started there! But because there are just too many uploads I don't think everyone gets the attention and feedback they deserve.

With regard to your queries:

1)Thanks - some people seem to think uploads are a god-given right.
2)By overused I mean that people put images in favourites far too easily. If an image is in various people's favourites gallery it contributes to that images c-index and could give the artist a false impression of the value of that piece (hence stunting their artistic development). If users could only have, say, 5 pages of favourites (or whatever figure was decided on) then they would (hopefully) pick and choose more carefully. Favourites (just like a '10' vote) should be a rare event.
3)This is essentially the same concept as above. If artists can only have a maximum cap of 'x' number of images in their gallery (after which they have to start deleting old images) then surely they will be more careful about what they upload. This voluntary self-purging (which some people do anyway) could also lead to greater understanding of their own development as they re-assess their older images.
4)I'm not in a position to say if your voting is 'bad'. On the odd occasion I have probably voted slightly higher on a relatively inexperienced artist who I think is promising. However, in general I vote the same regardless of how new they are or whether I know them or not. To vote higher on someone's images could give them a misunderstanding about their own abilities and could hamper their development. The idea behind the average vote was really just so people could see if a member tends to vote high or low or whatever. It wouldn't really prove anything and i don't think it should be linked to anything.

To come back to your point about culling: I think that images aren't culled enough. New images need to be removed if they aren't good enough for the permanent galleries (which most of them aren't). The permanent galleries themselves need to be regularly subject to re-evaluation as well.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
Lozaa
04/21/05 7:28 PM GMT
Just a thought - You could adjust the c-index formula so it factored in the average score that users gave to other images.

For instance a 9 given by a person who nearly always votes high would be worth far less than someone who mostly votes low, then only on the odd occasion votes 9.

This would probably require also factoring in the average c-index of the images voted on, so if someone only looks at the top images, their vote is not devalued compared to someone who views all images.

This would be quite complex, but I'm sure Caedes could do it.
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DixieNormus
04/21/05 7:56 PM GMT
The best way to obtain a true rating is to remove the upper, and lower 3% of votes cast for a particular image. Then refigure the results. The result will be a more accurate, and unbiased rating. Of course the more votes you recieve....the more accurate the system.....so PLEASE...vote darn ya!!! =0)
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::drgibson
04/21/05 8:31 PM GMT
Caedes? Up For a little formula creation!?
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Capturing for infinity that which only lasts for a short time.
::Radjehuty
04/21/05 9:00 PM GMT
well geez this is alot to read but I kind of think that it might be a bad idea to post the average vote cast in a persons profile. The voting that someone does is purely personal and may negitively reflect a person's personality from the standpoint of another user who sees that average. Actually I think it is just rather irrelivant information and others would not need to see that. As a matter of fact, it will also influence a portion of users' votes because they might think it will raise or lower their average.

Also on removing the upper and lower 3% of votes cast will only make the rating less accurate. It's almost like removing 6% of the votes people cast for presidency.
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"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
::CaptainHero
04/21/05 9:10 PM GMT
"it will also influence a portion of users' votes because they might think it will raise or lower their average" well that was pretty much the point - before voting yet another '10' they might actually stop and think.

Agree about the 3% - no point.

But these were minor points - what about all the other things?
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
co2metal
04/21/05 9:59 PM GMT
well i really don't see a purpose in any of that.. it is no one else's business what you vote, and it might lead to people judging others by their average vote.. i think we are going fine as it is.
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click here for pure excellence
::Morwyn
04/21/05 10:02 PM GMT
Why are you always trying to fix something that isn't broke??? Things are working fine as they are.
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::CaptainHero
04/21/05 10:39 PM GMT
The entire point of this discussion (and various others like it) is that things are not working fine.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
::Morwyn
04/21/05 11:09 PM GMT
Then we will agree to disagree. I don't understand your problem.. I see nothing wrong. Everyone who is willing to try should have a chance. Voting is a private thing and should not be make public. I don't want your nose over my shoulder when I step into the voting booth at election time. and I don't want it here.
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::Radjehuty
04/22/05 2:38 AM GMT
Influencing votes basically just makes what they think about your image more innacurate. If they stop and think about their vote, they aren't thinking about the quality of the image...they are only thinking about how it will effect their displayed voting average. Voting will therefore have a much different meaning than before. I agree that there are many accounts of voting that is based on who the artist is and such, but if you add that in, it will only add another element of things for our votes to be based on. I right now vote based on quality and personal taste. If we add this in, I might not take in the image's quality into account completely. I'm sure many others would feel the same.
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"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
co2metal
04/22/05 2:40 AM GMT
Agreed.
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click here for pure excellence
::CaptainHero
04/22/05 7:48 AM GMT
As I said several posts ago, this is a minor thing - the average vote thing was just an afterthought, why concentrate on it? Forget about it - it doesn't bother me one way or the other.

Now can we get back to the other points that have been made?
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
scionlord
04/22/05 10:35 AM GMT
I am not particularly bothered by the c-index, as since the tweak to the Caedes Control panel, I have looked at the ratings.

I think some of these images are hit quite badly as far as not being looked at in the first place. I try to check everyday so I can see what other people have done, but I am fairly limited to the New Images gallery. Occasionally I hit the other permanent galleries to see what there is. Needless to say with the large number of images, this takes a lot of time out of the day...but I come across some cracking images, which some of you will notice from my comments which pop up occasionally.

Perhaps an additional selection could be made to viewing images - Sort by Artist. I know you can do it (sort of) in the Image Rankings area, but it generally involves a lot guesswork on page numbers to find a particular artist. Is this doable and practical?
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius ................. Pieces to Ponder : Blueness

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