Well I just had my first experience with the big "0". The other day I uploaded 2 roses. It's interesting to note that each of the two received both a zero and a ten. My oh my!..............OOPS! I just found another with both a zero and a ten. It's called Lakeside. Now really!

Most of my last 5 images have every vote possible (0-10). As an artist this tells me that you can please some of the people some of the time and not everyone at once.

As far as I can see, voting is becoming less and less useful as a means of judging an image's value or as use for the artist.

Quite true, Chris. I too believe that the C:index has become quite superfluous due to it's repeated abuse as an outlet for agression and sometimes a weapon.

I got a zero from someone on my "Happy Birthday Erja! card. Someone must dislike Erja, me, boats, or birthdays in general maybe all four...LOL. I would love to know who it was just to satisfy my own curiosity of who does nutty stuff like that. but I know it's the privacy thing.

It's not likely that Erja or you or birthdays had anything to do with it, since voters don't see your commentary. Maybe someone had a bad experience on a cruise ...
I'm more interested in knowing why than who.
I feel left out though - I don't think I've ever gotten all 11 votes :-{

You are absolutely right Hannah, I am much more interested in knowing why then who.

When people do this zero thing they are showing disrespect for the whole site. In my case, with the three examples I mentioned, I'd say that no one needs to love them. On the other hand, none deserves a zero. I think it's someone who likes to get the best scores and can achieve that by seeing that others get low scores. Pretty devious, but I can't imagine any other reason for doing that.

Overnight I received 6 zeroes on 6 separate images which previously had none.
Someone has again been having their 'fun'.
As usual they do not account for their reasons.

On the other hand, you can take quiet satisfaction in knowing that every time they vote "zero" (in an abusive, non-serious manner), they devalue their own vote in the calculation of the c-index. Kinda like when they throw out the French judge's score in figure skating. Or was that the Australian's? I get so confused.

I hadn't looked at the spreads when they became available, so I only discovered about a week ago that I have a zero vote on every single image I've ever uploaded. *shrug*. Annoying, but tis what it is. I'll live.

However, if someone would like to comfort me with alcoholic beverages of the umbrella-in-them variety, I'll be quite happy to accept. 8•D

I'd like an umbrella drink, too. Where shall we head to get them? Mexico, Tahiti, St. Croix, Bali............just name it.

How does the system know they are not serious?

The sun is shining where I am - ideal conditions for a serious umbrella in them beverage !
Shall I get out the deck chairs ?
:) :)

I posted an image tonight - a damn good one I thought - one of the first votes was a ZERO. Here's the image image Can someone tell me why this would get a zero? Ah there is no answer is there?

Kathy, We all know that image of yours does not deserve one damned zero. Most of the images posted on this site, I dare say, don't deserve zeros. I can't believe it is someone who wants to elevate their scores by giving others low votes because it seems that most of us receive the zeros. I have at least one zero on EACH of my last ten posts. I sure wouldn't upload an image that I thought was such crap that it deserved a zero.

It's all nonsense and maybe the way to get any response to the nonsense and get it taken seriously is for all of us to start voting zeros on everything. Throw in the fact that now there hasn't been an AC for some time, but I am told that a mod has been promoting images to the main galleries on their own makes it seem a useless waste of time for us to upload anything.

I know I will probably raise a few hackles by what I just said, but WTH and WFL?

Lyn, the system can tell because it totals the number of times the voter votes "zero" (or consistently low) compared to what their other votes are.

Listen, people voting zero is going to be a fact of life. It's not always fair, but then life isn't. *caedes has done everything that he can to offset the effect of those who hand out zeros like they're candy on halloween, and 10's on the other end of the scale too. In order to provide the best most reasonable calculation.

Most people use the breakdown statistics to see where *most* people voted on their image to get an idea of it']s reception and because they just like to know. Often this means you have to ignore the outliers (small number of votes with numbers far away from the rest of the grouping), and use it for the useful information - a lot of people thought it sucked AND a lot of people thought it was great, a lot of people thought it was above average but not outstanding, etc.

If you can't take knowing that someone has voted zero on your image (whether fairly or unfairly), then don't look at the spread statistics. Because it WILL happen, and p.s. somebody peed on your lawn while you weren't looking too.

It is simply not worth stressing over. Jeenie's joining me for umbrella drinks. Anybody else?

I'll take a Mai Tai please - heavy on the rum!

Then if every image is mediocre, why do we need a VB? And it is not just an occasional occurence Cat, it is happening more and more.
So, the way to deal with the scores generated in the VB is to get inebriated? That's not how I deal with life, sorry.
The joker who doles out those zero votes is probably reading this thread right now and busting a gut laughing.

To be very honest guys - if there is someone who is consistently voting zero to be a brat on a whole bunch of stuff, they're looking for a reaction. And you're giving it to them. They're that kid peaking around the corner waiting to see who is going to get caught by the whoopie cushion and laughing when they see someone sit on it.

It's annoying - but they've devalued their own vote, and it's not going to count significantly if at all in the calculation of the score. If you let it get to you, you're letting them win.

And Cindy - who said every image is mediocre? Is that what the majority of the rest of the votes on the image said? Why are you letting one vote matter more than the rest of them?

Are you aware of how many people have left this site because of this issue?
I am in favor of doing away with the VB altogether or changing it so that it tells us something more about what the vote indicates as suggested in some other threads.

*passes trixxie a Mai Tai*

btw Cindy - it's not about getting inebriated, it's about choosing not to focus on the negative and going ahead and enjoying life. Today I chose umbrella drinks. Tomorrow I might choose a walk, playing games with my family, or an ice cream sundae.

So right now I'm going for another round of Chocolate-Coconut Mudslides. *slurp*.

A lot of people have left the site for a variety of reasons over the years. It always has to do with their basic dissatisfaction over how the site functions. It works for some people, it doesn't for others.

Suggestions have been made, I'm sure *caedes is aware of them, it's his site, and if he feels they are useful, he'll enact them.

Sometimes the negative calls attention to itself and you have to address it. It is focusing too when you try to get to the bottom of something that causes issues or consternation.
When was the last time you posted, Cat? It doesn't happen for you every day. Try putting yourself in the other guys shoes.

You are right. It is Caedes site and yes, he can do as he sees fit. We contribute; some with images, some with dues and some with both, so we have a vested interest too in what happens here.
I believe that most of us, at least those who keep coming back, have a sincere interest in the mechanics and smooth running of the site also.

Again though - sometimes it's a question of focusing more internally. Why are you letting one vote matter more than the rest of them?

Trust me, I get rejected all the time on a much larger scale than this. I would appreciate if you didn't draw conclusions about my life that are really negative and not in evidence at all. In fact, it very much feels like a personal attack that such conclusions are drawn from very scant information.

That I suggested today that we shrug it off and have a drink or two does not mean that is my primary coping method. That I haven't uploaded here lately does not mean that I have no experience with the feeling of rejection or unfair persecution. If you'll note above, I just found out that all of my images have zero votes last week. That's pretty recent there.

I shrug that off because it is ONE person's opinion. If it's even an opinion rather than someone being a brat. So - to return - why are you allowing a single vote to matter more than all the rest of the votes you receive on an image?

Fine, if that one sticking point, needs an answer, I will answer it. It is not just one little vote that bothers me. It is the fact that EVERY image now gets, at least, one zero vote and everyone else's images, from what I have been hearing, get treated the same way. I am not feeling bad for myself, I am feeling bad for others. If I get a zero vote, it doesn't please me because I know what effort I put into the images I post, but I don't let it destroy me either. I have taken a tact that I post what I like and if it is not what the majority consider worthwhile, that's not my problem. If you don't have the nerve or the decency to tell me what is wrong with my image, then you have no business giving it a zero. To me, that is the action of a cowardly person

I took issue with the idea of the mixed drink because it was, to me, in effect, saying that if you numb yourself, you won't feel anything and it will make the world go away. Maybe the sundae creation would have been a better choice.

I was definitely making no aspersions as to your lifestyle because as you said, I don't know you that well.

Thanks for answering. I understand the frustration, I simply feel that focusing on it after having raised the issue and made the suggestions is a fruitless endeavor that makes oneself unhappy.

So - I'm still having a drink today. You're welcome to have a Sundae if you'd like. And we'll wait and see if *caedes decides that the things that have been suggested are worth enacting.

a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.(Wikipedia)

Seeing as such is immediately dealt with here, perhaps these mentally ill individuals are creating their desired effect by voting Zero. Such things are a game for them. Are they winning?

I dunno David. Did they pee on my lawn too while they were at it? Cuz if so, I'd like to avoid that spot.

And pardon me Lyn - the deck chairs sound like an awesome idea. 8•D

btw.. there have been people suspended from this site due to sabotage on voting over the years.. so if someone votes zero a lot i'm sure the same thing will happen to them..


oh and Cat.. i'll have a cowboy thanks.. ;)

The sooner the better :)

(from my deck chair. Someone keeps refilling my glass. The umbrella is wilted though and my lawn may well be getting peed on and my images zeroed by the brat but the drinks are good!)

Heyyyy!


Just thought up of a new drinking game ... "Zeroes".

Get a zero, take a shot.. get another zero, take another shot and and ...

... ...

... ...

In fact, I am drunk right now.

But.. winning at "Zeroes"!

... ...

... ...

(*gets to work on his next upload ... knocks over pc tower..*)

Oh oh..

That would be the thread I was referring to above. Are you sure you are okay though? You didn't say very much. ;0)

Oh yes, Ron has your tab HERE.

Since it seems unlikely that the situation will change any time soon, perhaps people should resist looking at the voting breakdown, particularly if you already know the result is going to make you upset.

I would be more disturbed by zeros if I didn't know everyone got them all the time.
My last piece got no 0s but five 2s. I'll trade you, Cindy!

You can have all my votes, Hannah. .They are pretty worthless to me!

Maybe scoring has changed. I'm beginning to think all my photos must be crummy because my scores have gotten so low. So, Cindy, I'll take some of your votes (the high ones) if you're giving them away. Thanks for your generosity.

Perhaps we should be able to look at peoples voting breakdown on the most active artists page, in the same way we can view the voting on our own pictures. In fact, allowing others to see the voting pattern on pictures in general might also allow comments to be made about the applicability of such votes. The argument is that people who do not vote reasonable, i.e. all 0's would me immediately obvious to all.

I think that voting serves several purposes; 1) voting allows artists to be interactive with the site. Voting gives the artists responsibilities through their participation; 2) voting draws special attention to up to 40 pictures a day to all who visit the Voting Booth; and 3) voting gives the site administration an idea as to what the community thinks about the pictures they have voted on. Administration then takes into account those votes and, after applying a logarithm, comes up with a score for that picture.

The c-index is a number “c”alculation of the picture and is one of the possible ways by which the picture may be sorted when visitors come to the site looking for wallpapers. I do not believe the c-index was ever a mathematical “average” of the votes received.

I feel that members should be encouraged to visit the VB and vote on as many pictures as their schedules will allow. I think those visits and those votes should remain anonymous. The more transparent this exercise becomes, the fewer participants the site will have.

I get zeros on every picture I post. I do not care who is voting this way. I do not care if zeros are or are not included in the c-index. If my picture is not elevated into the “Main” gallery, it is off to archives. So be it. I was allowed to post it. It was allowed to be viewed by all. It was voted on. It had its moment in the spotlight.

Nobody will know or care what your c-index was on an archive picture from last month. Too many new pictures to look at and enjoy. Getting zeros or getting tens do not prevent pictures from going into the Main nor did they hasten the journey into archives. The quality of the picture is what causes the road selected for all pictures and I can live with that.

When it gets to the point where all your scores look the same, it's pointless to keep banging your head against a wall asking why because the answer is not forthcoming. No one is going to tell you why they think your images are mediocre even though you have been posting them here for five years.
The voting booth tells you only that some people liked it, some people didn't and some people are scallywags and they sure aren't talking.
Save your good stuff and enter it in the photography contests that award money and equipment prizes.

Very few look at 40 images a day, John, very few. I now leave my images in the VB for a time just out of curiosity and then I remove them until eventually there will be no scores on my posts at all. If things change I might go back to the old way, 'when life was slow, and oh, so mellow'. lol

"Cognitive distortion"

(Courtesy of wikipedia.org.)

@ Chris; aka coram9:

Not sure exactly what you are referring to in your post?

Are you suggesting that 'we' be able to view the voting distributions on all images, regardless of whether or not the images are our own?


And/or..

That the scores assigned/ratings attached to anyone member.. be viewable to all?

Which, I've seen on some other sites. A person or member may be a 'high' rater, or conversely, that of a 'low' rater ... with their scoring averages made public.

Definition: SA. Hope we're not on our way to the EG again!

Or.. could be a sincere attempt to introduce/provoke some ... introspection.

I wish we could have a discussion that didn't include insults. There is mean stuff in the last 4 posts which i believe to be unnecessary. Please lets not do that! For those of us who are interested in the topic....this is way off base. I hope it will not go to the elephant's graveyard. I hope it will head in a much more positive direction.

So do I, Jen.

I disagree that the scores all look the same. I just had a quick look at my most recent images (which are the first I have entered in the VB for a long time) and in general I agree with at least the order in which they are rated, if not the ratings themselves in every case. The highest score is 70 and the lowest is 28; I would agree that the highest rated is the best of the uploads and the lowest is probably the most unappealing visually (it was more of a "personal interest" image than one intended as a desktop). The next highest is 63 and again I would agree that it is my pick for the second best; some of them I perhaps would not have rated as high or low in the order as the voting has but what would the point of entering images in the booth be if you knew the outcome...

As far as zero votes go, there are a couple of zeros and several ones and a few others which are probably lower than I think they should be, however one of the zeroes is on the highest rated image so IMO it really hasn't effected the out come.

IMO the whole "zero voting" thing is only a problem if you let it bother you. There are always going to be people on the net who will try to find a way to wind you up; I think most of them are probably trolls who are just passing by and only spend a few hours on the site before they move on to the next one. Then again it could be someone with a vendetta whose aim is to upset people. If that is so then I would suggest that threads like this would encourage their efforts greatly as they know they are having the desired effect. Yes, it may be possible to stop them, ban them etc. but you can be sure they or someone else will find another way to cause trouble before too long.

I know this is going to fall on deaf ears (again) but we need to move on from this issue. I don't think anyone can claim that it hasn't had enough air time or that anyone has not been able to air their views so what is the point of continuing it other than to get ourselves wound up?

Anyway this will be my last effort to get my POV across for a while.I'll leave those of you who wish to continue the discussion to do so.

I have to agree with Sam on this. I have recently been voting a lot, so my last image has 50 votes, and they form a very nice normal distribution curve around the CI. It has 0 votes and 10's, in fact every possible vote, but with that number of votes the CI probably reflects the members opinions very well.

Why worry? Whether here or elsewhere in life, there are always some jerks who get a cheap thrill from doing something stupid...by reacting you encourage more of the same. IF...and that is a big 'IF'...there are some images that truly deserve a zero, that party should have the moxy to stand by their score and say why they feel that image is only deserving of such a low score...if they can't do even do that then they obviously don't feel confident enough in what they are doing and should be dismissed along with the others mentioned above...furthermore, it appears to happen to all of us so why take it personally...my two cents' worth.