The pictures we post on this site are the public face of Caedes. Visitors come here looking for images to adorn their desktops. They do not come here to view peoples holiday snaps being shared between friends, and especially not to see "a picture of someones late mother" a quote from a colleague of mine who happened to see a recent posting. I apologise for his lack of tact in this matter. It similarly applies to pets. If the image in question has artistic merit then by all means post it as a piece of art, but not just for the sake of publicising ones own grief.

I understand the loss felt when someone close to you dies, I lost my mother at the age of 8 so I do really understand. I also know from my own situation how close death can be, perhaps that makes me more sensitive in this matter, but I find the postings of in memoriam images quite upsetting and not what I, or presumably visitors, come here for.

The case of Verenabloo was an exception, and well handled by Caedes given her standing within our community, although I feel that written condolences and not public postings would have been more appropriate.

Get well soon cards likewise should be removed and threads about such things kept in the Off Topic thread where others can ignore them. Send an email, electronic card of something else if you need to, but why subject the whole world, and me, with your woes. It may make you feel good, but it has the opposite effect on me.

For clarification, this is a general comment and not directed specifically at anyone.

I feel that all such social interactions would best be served by forming a Facebook group, or using some other social media for this. The group could be linked from our pages quite easily. We could then remove the noticeboard thread, community galleries and other such items to that and keep the public face of Caedes solely for our art.

I use the "Your Community" section as a way of further categorizing my images, and some of the other members seem to be doing the same. Maybe that's not what it's supposed to be for, but that's the way tags are used elsewhere.
I do tend to agree with you about the "social" images. I really don't like getting birthday cards in the voting booth!

Caedes image upload guidelines state only that the images we upload be our own, a rule you have already broken.

Images can be rejected and these mentioned above were not rejected. If you don't like the images, don't look at them.

If your statement was not meant specifically for anyone, then it was meant for everyone.

Mostly, it is we who come here and we don't really know all the reasons for visitors coming here.

It seems every discussion thread I go to you (Chris) try to take it over with your ego inflated comments. Now you start your own. You talk down to people and show little respect.

I am not going to drag this out, but would like to say, maybe you should go away-------------again.

The Caedes.net Code of Conduct

1. General

1. Citizens shall endeavour to make caedes.net a better place (or at least not worse).

Caedes image upload rules


2. Images
a. Only upload images for which you have full intellectual property, fair use, or redistribution rights or permissions.
b. If you use any material that you did not create, you must state the source of that material in the image description.

Since a lot of social images are also placed in the VB I do have to look at them sometimes.

I believe that there used to be many more visitors than members. Now we only see the members numbers so I cannot know for certain but perhaps someone who knows can answer that one.

Chris is as free as anyone else to state what he feels is a problem on the site and suggest a solution. There is no reason whatsoever to slam him like this or insist on following the in-place guidelines. I find the behavior of those on this thread who are doing so hypocritical and disturbing.

Chris, in all of the threads that I have read, in which you have participated in, I can say that you have always written your thoughts in a clear and direct manner. Though I may not have have always agreed with you, I always respected what you had to say and was appreciative in the manner in which you conveyed your ideas.

I have seen on several occassions where you have gone back and apologized to different members for your choice of words. As Kipling wrote, "You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!"

you allowed plusBob to slam me, cat. you are right. everyone is free.

"Three for a dollar! Three for a dollar! Step on up and test your aim!"

(*changes into red Speedo*)

... ...

(*checks cookie jar level*)

"And all the monies go to a good good cause!"

You don't have to look at anything,Nobody has your arm up your back.I've informed you in earlier replies.It is not necessary to view an image simply allow the header only to load..People on here are human beings with human feelings,They have friends.Informing said friends of a loss,Eases there pain to a certain extent.It's the problem shared/problem halved syndrome.It's more than an art site it's a family of people that communicate become familiar with each other,I know this because i have met some of them at various venues....I have had many a close call with the maker,Both in the deserts of Yemen and the jungles of Borneo.I know how precious life is and what it means to lose someone close..People are people not robots,Most people anyway.They need to be part of a family/tribe/group.It's in our makeup,It's how we have survived...If all you want to do is upload pictures,Use Flickr..

I am so glad Riche, (Biffobear), agrees with my thinking. People do indeed need to be part of a family/tribe/group, which is why Facebook and other social interaction sites work so well, and why it would allow such interactions, in a far better way, to develop for this site. It also allows images and chats to be held and shared without imposing them on visitors, who are not part of any particular tribe/family/group, to look for desktop art without imposing on, or being imposed upon by families/tribes/groups that they are not part of.

You know full well i don't agree with you..Don't presume that I do..Follow your own advice and ignore/avoid,Things that you find no interest in...

I'm not certain there's any sure-fire way to separate the social aspect of the Caedes site from its original and stated purpose. It's human nature to reach out and associate with others, particularly after we view so many of each other's work, in photographic or digital form. Take Owb Bob, for example; he's given us so many peeks into his life and love of land, for his dear wife and his steady companion Sam, through his photos and posts, that it's impossible to not know him. And there's no way I would take offense at him posting a memorial for Sam because many of us have known of that faithful friend through Bob. I can happily say that I have developed friends here because of the images and posts (in fact, yesterday and the day before, my wife and I were hosting a fellow Caedesian and his delightful wife, all the way here from the east coast, in our open-air Jeep). But there is more than one side to being a member here. From viewing his submissions and reading his posts, I know for a fact that Chris is an artist, and being one myself, classically trained as such, I understand and respect his views of art and his right to express them. The web is still a fairly new element in our society. Before it's arrival, we visited across the back fence, the street, at parties, through direct conversation (remember that?), telephone, and letters. It was more face-to-face and we could correspond without misunderstanding. Today we correspond in code (OMG!) and, since it's unlikely we'll ever meet 99% of the people we have contact with, we tend to take liberties with what we say in our emails and texts, which, in turn gets misinterpreted. And that leads to more misinterpretation. I am not a fan of political correctness--I think it is making us soft--but I am old-school in believing it's better to be a little verbose and be honest about what you're saying, wishing for a return (it'll never happen) to the more direct ways of correspondence. It's a little too easy to send a zinger through the monitor and, lately, I'm seeing that more and more in these threads. Perhaps Chris should have thought twice about starting this one, knowing it would rock the boat, but it is his privilege to do so, as it is for any of us. Let's just try not to get so bent out of shape... there's a lot more things going on in life to worry about.

"... I am old-school in believing it's better to be a little verbose and be honest about what you're saying, wishing for a return (it'll never happen) to the more direct ways of correspondence."

Cousin Nik?

That you??

We come from the same bloodline where words are concerned, doncha know.


I don't know if it will be any more palatable to present or reframe Chris' thoughts some (as I understand them .. and Chris feel free to correct me in what is to follow) ... but, I shall try.

'Snapshot' variety images.

These include, but not limited to.. family pet shots, vacation shots .. and 'hey, I thought this was neat and wanted to show/share it with you' shots.

With the converse being true that not all fit into these categories. (I.e. ... a photo of a family pet need not always be a snapshot. Plenty of examples in the Main Galleries of artistic imagery on this note.)

So..


From a site perspective, and a wholly dispassionate view.. given that some have already made mention of standards falling some ... if these types of images were relegated to another site affiliated venue, would doing so improve the site's profile to visitors?

And if located, 'off-site'.. let's say, where those that have friends and wanted to share these types of images (which, some do note in their accompanying narratives as 'nothing special' (for lack of a better and accurate/quoted phrasing) ... and allowing for the social aspect to still continue unabated ... be such a bad suggestion?

It is simply that of shifting URLs for some specific activities/aspects of the site. (Slight inconvenience, perhaps.)

That's.. all.


And I quote, *caedes hisownself;

"You may ask "why do we need a set of 'permanent' images?" The truth is that the majority of the site's visitors come just to get good desktop wallpaper. They never upload an image. The inventory of quality "reference" images is a way to bring in new blood and ensure that the site doesn't wither and die. It is also a testament to the maturity and history of the site."

(Found on this discussion thread ... "Maintaining Quality".)


Think that about covers it.

So..

Bring on the pitchforks and torches! You can't harm me while I am in my 'Circle of Baked Good Good Protection'!

(*wields a Christmas cake*)

/\ Impenetrable, says I ... and says, I did.

I do not doubt that here is a strong community on Caedes. It is perhaps less all inclusive than some of its members think. Neither is Caedes just about this community, there is a wider audience outside the membership that should also be considered. I know full well that Owd Bob and Sam are well loved amongst some members here. I actually never knew he had a dog until today, so I have learned something. Perhaps the distance that I have from this group gives me a slightly different, some would say jaundiced, view, but I do feel it is non the less valid.

I am not attacking anyone or group in this thread. That is not and has never been my intention. I express a view and an idea that I felt had some merit. That is the idea of a discussion thread, to discuss things. Perhaps we could actually get around to discuss the idea of a social group outside Caedes at some point.

Now that I think of it, if this 'other' site were to be officially sanctioned ... might need *caedes' approval.

Although, I can't imagine why it would need approval, outside of using the site's name to an extent? (The use of the 'name only' ... freeing him from any legal recourse/obligations, or some such. Not entirely sure.)

... ...

... ...

Welllll, whaddya know?

Already in place:

Caedes | Facebook

Not sure of how much functionality there is at present.

And this might have been a response to those that had suggested a Facebook link on their profile pages on the Suggestion Poll at some point.

I find it interesting that the same people who have very recently insisted that things which do not work the way they want them to be removed from the site now suggest that someone else simply ignore it?

As for that facebook page Les... no administrators there to put down "the man" as far as I know. Sounds like paradise!!!!

yeah no knives in the back over there.. lol

I believe Chris has some valid points. I think it would be an improvement so far as the general public is concerned if the more personal images - Cards, family, and such - were hidden from the public view but left as is for members signed in.

Not so keen on moving the social aspects off site all together. Just hide some of it from the casual visitor.

As for posting to relieve / share ones personal distress, I see both sides. Grief unreleased destroys the soul. Even now my eyes are filled with tears from remembering and reviewing these.

For Love and Memories I gave no indication of sorrow or grief at the time.

A state of emergency

Though both were posted though tears they are artistic and appropriate for the desk top.

Both those images stand on their own as good images. They may mean less to a stranger than David (Zunazet), but they do stand on their own as desktop images. My own Belsen images were very personal, but I believe that the few I posted were sufficiently different and artistic to stand as desktops. Some may disagree.

The point is, David's certainly are valid artistic images. They do not have writing over the top specifying them to be anything other than images. Many sites do not allow images with writing, other than a small signature, simply to stop the posting of images with ulterior motives, that is reasons beyond the image itself. Some sites limit descriptions for the same reason, although I am not suggesting that.

A members only gallery would certainly achieve the result of removing the more personal images from public view. I think the Main and New Images should remain public as they stand at present. Really, the more personal images should be assigned to the Your Community gallery anyway, and perhaps that gallery could be made private to members?

I am sorry if my 'grieving' upsets you Chris!...It must mean I have a soft heart, as I know my friends on here have too!..

The 'Categories' have 'Personal'..'People' etc in the list...So, this way I can inform 'friends' of what is happening!....

If you are so 'disgruntled' at the way Caedes is run...(Don't forget, it has been this way since the onset) and many people have 'Tried' to change it!...If you are not happy on here!...I am sure there are many other web places that would suit your way of thinking!...

This is all you will hear me say of this (Thread)...I will not be a part of a thread that brings 'personality. into it!

I would be nice if only friends could see stuff like this.

See the forth post.That goes a long way to offering an explanation and a solution

I don't see any post where the person who started this thread has attacked anyone personally. The same can't be said for some of those who have responded. And if memory serves these are the same people who are the quickest to take umbrage if anyone dares question their own point of view.

I find it amazing that a small clique of members see this site as just for them. It is not. There are many members not part of their social circle, and even more complete strangers visiting. I tried to put a point of view and a helpful suggestion, as have others.

Many people here suffer losses. I have today. I come here to get away from such things. I suspect others do to.

It is not a desire to change the site per se, but to merely show a different perspective that we should perhaps all be aware of.

I would tend to agree that, as this is an art website, art that is not readily for wholesale consumption of the site and its visitors should be sequestered somehow - available to the community, but not impinging on the overall purpose of the site.

My concern with Facebook is that most people follow the rules there and use their real names, and several people here who are comfortable as "community" without having to put that info out in the open, would not be comfortable having it known there. I don't think that it needs to be in order to have a community that treasures one another.

I would really like to see a solution to this issue. I know one of the major issues with the separated "Your Community" gallery was that some people felt that personal images they uploaded passed the "artwork" bar, and others didn't agree, particular in categories like "Pets". It can be especially hard when it's your own pet or person that you care for to step back and see it without the filter of all the emotion that you have for them, as a separate piece of art. On the flip side of course are those who are very hard on any images and overly judgmental.

Off the top of my head, some of the ideas that I come up with are expanding the profile pages of the artists, to allow them to upload images there to a "personal" gallery, available to whoever views someone's profile page, and notifications sent to "Friends" the same way images loaded into the "new" gallery would be. This would also allow a link to be pm'd to those someone would like to share it with, etc. Another is doing a YaHoo or MySpace group, but my concern there is that it is separate from the site, and I'd really like to see whatever happens as something that is part of this site and supportive of community and sharing here.

This is just tossing out some not-very-formed thoughts here for more discussion...

Here is a relatively simple idea.

1. Make the new images gallery invisible to visitors but still visible to members.

2. In its place create a "Recent Images Gallery" made up of all images nominated to the Art Council.

It would keep everything in place for members while showing visitors the best.

I'm not sure that wouldn't create it's own problems; members might see it as an invitation to upload more personal images/snapshots, for example, and I also imagine it would encourage a lot more frivolous nominations/"I nominate your image if you nominate mine" type behavior, since that would be the only way to get more exposure.

Personally I think it worked better when the "Community" galleries were entirely separate from the other galleries... that was why I created them in the first place. Some people argued that it did encourage more of these types of image to be uploaded but I didn't have a problem with that since you only ever saw them if you actually visited the Community gallery. With the tag system it doesn't work that way any more.

I did think of the abuse side but wanted to keep the thought simple. Perhaps change that from all nominated images to nominated images that did not make the main gallery but had a good percentage of yes votes.

It would also require the artist posting such images to place them in the correct gallery. Some recent ones have been placed in Animals and people, rather than Your community.

For reference this images from Roseman_Stan is a perfect example, in my view, of how one can pay respects with an image that is wholly appropriate to the new image gallery.

I rather wish I had not mentioned Facebook now. Other than the problem Cat outlined, there is another flaw, which I will not expose here.

I agree with Cat's idea of having a 'personal gallery' located on the members / artists profile page. It would be available to friends (sending out notifications) & also available for other members to view, but sort of invisible to those that visit the site searching for desktop wallpapers. Something worth considering ... me thinks.

Recently I uploaded an image to 'Pets' ... something I rarely do. I cried when I took the image, then three months later I cried when I edited the image, cried when I uploaded the image, & cried again when the image was placed in the main galleries. Even if I had left no words to go along with the image, I strongly believe that the majority of people viewing the image felt some type of emotion as well. Yes, I know it was my dog ... but isn't the heart of all art about feelings & emotions. Sometimes our pets / femily members can convey that emotion as well. Take a look at the the Main Pet Gallery ... they are all very well done & I do feel something whether it's happiness, joy, or sadness for each one.

I simply would not want to see the 'Pet' Galleries to go away as it is one that I visit from time to time & find some images to use as desktops. As for visitors / non-members I can't speak for them.

I'm not trying to contradict myself ... just saying some pet images are done artistically while others are not so much.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Daydreaming is a wonderful picture. It deserves its place in the main gallery. It may have a special meaning to Sheree but it fulfils any artistic criteria as well. This type of image is not what I am talking about in the thread. It is the ones with Happy Birthday, or RIP written large on them that makes them unsuitable for a desktop for any stranger visiting the site. It is possible to post images that mean something and be artistic, as Sheree has done, and long may such images be posted.

I don't think a certain circle of friends think this site is theirs, and it seems to me that the personnal side that so many have taken with good friends, is trying to be taken away. Again, I don't usually comment in threads, and it is upsetting to me to see my friends get upset, by bad wording, (give some thought to what you type before posting)it is very easy to come across like a hypocrite and give others the feeling that they are being treated in a below standard way. So many rules and regualtions don't we have enough of that in everyday life, and it's getting worse every day! The images I have a problem with are ones taken of someones foot in the sand, or just their foot and stupid flip flop! I have seen some terrilbe images on there, and the quality has gone down hill, I guess it is easier to let them pass through, and waste our time viewing them in the VB. I try to be fair, and always let the image upload, and try to look for something good in every one I view.But if I can't find anything good in a image then it will get a 0 from me, as do not at the time even see the point of uploading the said image, I do remember when voting that this is wallpaper site.

I'm such an animal lover that I do not mind such images, I either vote them high and fave them, or I vote them low depending on their presentation. I have posted a few, I must admit, and they usually get removed by me for the low score, so I try to remember that when I'm thinking of uploading one, but I do forget that thought at times.

The first comment is going to offend another good friend of mine, who just lost his mother, and posted a very nice tribute. After you have driven away the talented artists on here, you will only have ---- left.

Coram9 just made a suggestion. Nobody said it was going to be taken up and there is no need for anyone to take offense.

Looking at things from another point of view

I do not believe the case of Verena was an exception. The reaction to her untimely passing by a large number of members was a result of the community aspect of the site. The 114 images posted in her memory is testament to that. She endeared herself to many with her honestly, compassion and courage. She reached out to people not only with her art but with her humanity. She was not afraid to say what she thought. Her personality and her art went hand in hand and were viewed as a whole.

It is my belief that the community aspect of caedes.net is not a bad thing to be discouraged.

Visitors are not required to indulge in it - they have the Main Galleries as first stop to choose their desktops from. If they venture further it could well be that it is the community aspect, the humanity, that encourages them to stay and participate themselves.

Part of the uniqueness of this site is that it is a community - a place where people with a common interest interact and share their talents. Take that away and all that is left is a collection of pictures in a cold and unwelcoming gallery.

well I'm sorry to say they have taken offense and are seriously thinking of leaving caedes. I almost think the discussion threads are a big problem on here, everything it taken out of context and it cause ill will.

Someone who has taken the time to make a fine tribute for whatever reason, and then might read this thread I think would take offense, and it's hurtfull,especially at a time when they have lost someone close to them. Now how would you feel if you read this kind of stuff after loosing a family member and posting a tribute? Oh that is right it is just a suggestion, forgive me please. Oh really!!

Do away with the threads! Let people pm their problem or suggestion or whatever! Now I'm getting involved, and I have not done so in along time.

I'm leaving this one lie, it takes my energy level down, because it's all a waste of time anyway. So this member has had her fill of this discussion, some might applaud that comment. I have said enough and it won't make a difference anyway, like so many other things in life. I'm stepping aside. - :(

(*wedges stuff under everyone's 'buttons' ... so they can't be pushed anymore*)

A few achilles' tendons are showing people. Take a step back and a couple of breaths.

Not pointing fingers here, just let's not let this digress/devolve into further personal arguments.



"This has been a good discussion (*for the most part), but I think that some people have invested a bit too much emotional effort into it."

(*Added by me to the original *caedes quote (from another discussion thread), that I think is applicable here. Both, the added bit and the quote itself.)

Just a note: My friend that posted a tribute came back to the site after all he has gone through, and read this thread, and is of course upset, and is taking leave. Another notch in the belt! I hope the the man at the top of this thread is feeling good about the notches he has made. So far I believe I have lost 6 of my good and talented friends no thanks to you!! I can only hope some will return. Enough said why not just close this one out before we loose more talented, and caring people.

Yoohoo!!! Are there real people in there? This is ridiculous! I can see Chris' point and see the others points as well. Can't it be combined? So just make a certain gallery for such things as memorial deaths and such. Visitors don't go to things like that! We can still have a close community and be like a family just as long as photos are put in their proper category. Okay?

(/\ Three posts up /\)

I thought I was being clear. No more personal attacks.


If anyone else feels the need to express something, other than that of what pertains to the premise and is at the roots of this discussion in place ... take it privately.


This thread just might be Elephant Gunned.

However, doing so will not prevent another incarnation. (As has happened many a time with respect to other topics that have gotten 'heated' at times.)


Calm..down.. people.

Les, I do understand, and I will refrain from any more comments. I do like joanie's suggestion! Kudos my friend for your thoughtful suggestion. Tigs♥ =^..^=

Man, am I glad I dont come on here so much these days, it was a fun site once, but with many of my old friends gone or going I cant be arsed with crap like this, if you dont like what you see, dont look at it, the main man needs to get a grip on some people fast as he is going to lose out on many a $ . . . .

Caedes image upload guidelines state only that the images we upload be our own, a rule you have already broken.http://www.caedes.net/Zephir.cgi?lib=Profile&username=crysophilax

Chris ... thank you for your kinds words. I appreciate them very much.

I'm not taking sides, but do understand everyone's point of view.

Where there's a will; there's a way ... there's always a solution, we just need to work together & not jump to conclusions. At least that's my way of thinking.

I think it's time for a 'group hug' ... I got 'cookies & cake' too.

Resorting to trying to shame a person into silence, and perhaps.. even that of leaving ... works both ways. (Besides being reprehensible behaviour in my opinion.)

If anyone that has posted to this thread thinks that their behaviour/conduct is beyond reproach ... think again.

(*looks up, takes note of a name or two*)


Chris; aka coram9; aka crysophilax posted an image, that was.. in fact ... from the public domain. And at that time, chose to leave on his own accord.

That is it.


I don't find your contribution to this thread productive in any regard, shape or form, Mark. And I don't believe you read this discussion thread in it's entirety.


If losing 6, 10 ... members at $3 a month tanks this site, it is in far worse shape financially than imagined by those with.. apparently, vivid imaginations.

Here's what will happen.. if some chose to leave.

They leave.

The site goes on without them.

Then, they will be forgotten about in time.


That is it.


Eventually whomever is working behind the scenes, coordinating this filibuster ... will run out of names and email addresses.

Maybe then, some peace will be restored to the discussion threads.

And again, the site will go on, regardless.

But in the meantime, Les, we'll have lost some valuable contributors, and that's far more detrimental to the site than a reduction in cash. That and the camaraderie those individuals brought to the site.

As soon as I saw that comment about birthday greetings (like they were the 10th plague of hell or something) I thought of Pat and how, while her birthday greetings and memorials may not be what we'd all be putting on our desktops, they provide a warm smile and a good day for who they are intended, and what's the harm in that? Some of you are taking a wide paintbrush to the membership, basically telling many of us that we're not needed, wanted, or even acknowledged. And that's why you're losing people. This is not a knee-jerk reaction. I'm not being childish. It's a clear and considered observation of what's happening here at Caedes.

Les. Imagine what you will. No one is working behind the scenes anymore than you mods do. No one has twisted anybody's arm or shamed them in any way. Caedes knows what this is all about because some of us have emailed him. If he does not respond, then we will know that perhaps he doesn't care. All we have asked for is respect. Is that so hard to give out? I have received PMs from other members I have not heard from before who say they were shamed or insulted by mods too. They support our idea to bring attention to that, some by not posting and some by being kind.

To be honest, I can understand someone leaving a site because they are not happy with the decisions that have been enacted. I don't understand someone leaving simply because a subject was raised for consideration.

I also don't understand the venom directed at the very subject being raised as a question for consideration – everyone is entitled to their own opinion and it's easy enough to express it as their own opinion. It's one thing to say "This is one of the things I like best about the site and don't think it needs to change" and another to say "You horrible person for even suggesting this!". One is a conversation, the other is a tactic for preventing conversation, and refuses to allow any other viewpoint than their own. I don't think that's the best of what this site is about at all.

Furthermore, I think that Verena is an excellent example of the difference between community supporting and existing around an art website, and community overtaking the art side of the website.

If you look through Verena's gallery, there are very very few images that have writing on them, and most of those are poems that reflect something she felt that the photo illustrated. A part of the image, accessible to anyone who stopped by. If there was more backstory - that this was a memorial or tribute, or gift, or something she wanted to share, that was in the comments area she wrote on the image.

Not every work of hers is outstanding, and a *few* are clearly in the "I posted this because I wanted to share it", but even in those cases, she did her best to make an artistic effort of it, and have the image stand alone as an artistic effort even if you knew none of the backstory. Whether or not she always succeeded is secondary to the idea that she was trying.

Verena built and embodied community by being an artist first and foremost, and reaching out to other artists by communicating with them about more personal things in written word. Off her images, not on them.

And for all that people are talking about those who are leaving - here is the other truth - there are several who have already left because this kind of thing has gotten too large and public and detracts from the kind of place that they want to be part of. Where things have slid from an art website accessible and meaningful to anyone who visits, to an arty-ish file-sharing site, more accessible to those who have built a community. That is just as much a problem as the other.

An artistic birthday card with writing and explanation on the image is not the same as an artistic birthday present with writing and explanation in the comments below the image.

A badly composed shot of what adorable thing a pet was doing is not the same as a shot taken to showcase the pet in an artistic manner. Adding a frame does not, on its own, count as making it "artistic". The base image has to have some more artistry.

From my perspective, I think the community aspect of this site is one of the best things about it – but I was here for a year before I ever discovered the greater community, because I was visiting to see what new things had appeared that I might want to put on my desktop. If these "community" types of images had been showing up then, I would not have kept coming back, because my overall perception of what the site is would have been very different.

No one is trying to kill the community aspect of the site. What some people are saying is that they feel it's happening in a way that detracts from the other primary purpose of the site. And looking for a solution that keeps both.

Some suggestions have been put forward toward that end. That is all.

Personally, I have no problem with snapshots of friends, family, pets, artistic birthday cards or personal tributes, as long as they are handled in a way that keeps them out of the main public viewing eye, so that the forefront of the site is "art to be shared with the world at large", as the backbone of what the site represents.

So can we talk about ways to make that happen? To keep both sides? Some suggestions have been put forth here, can we talk about those? Debate the pros and cons, or simply give our own opinion "I think it works better as it is, because...."

Cuz if not, I'm totally sending everybody to their own separate time out corners and no tv for a week.

above comment, well said.

Les, it is a lot to do with money, if you keep on having people leave, the site will one day be no longer.

Now, calm down all and live in peace and love......

Best wishes to you all,

Mark.

I would just like to say, that I forgive coram9's colleague and I forgive coram9. Yesterday was my Mother's funeral, and to come back and see his comment really upset me. I should have waited a few days to even get on here again. My mistake. As Sandi (tigger3) stated, I am taking leave, but not for good...unless there is a ban put on Pat's cards, or death announcements and stuff like that. This site may have evolved into something other than which it was intended in the beginning, but personally, I like it better than if it were just a site to give well thought out critiques on totally appropriate pictures. I must say, that if I never would have made the friends on here that I have, I never would have stayed very long. It's only because of them that I stick around.

It was not included in the guidelines for posting that there could be no writing on an image before. You sometimes think you are doing a good, kind thing, only to have someone take offense with it. Is the expression "No good deed goes unpunished" actually true? Would be quite sad were it so.

I shall quote Mark (sasraka) ...

Now, calm down and live in peace and love.

My own words ...

This isn't the end of the world. In fact there's a whole world out there ready to be captured in it's best moments in the form of imagery.

Isn't that what this site is about ... creating, sharing, helping, giving advice, & learning from one another.

I'm up for the challenge ... how about you's?

Because writing on an image is allowed - entirely.

But that doesn't mean that no thought should be given to what is written on the image, and how it affects its presentation as a piece of standalone art that somebody might want to use on their desktop.

I think there has to be a place for images with personal messages on the image rather than in the comments, I want to see that supported as a functional part of the site, but I agree that the public "main" and "new" galleries are not it.

The previous "Your Community" gallery, a personal gallery accessible on one's profile, with notifications sent to those on their friend's list, images that could be tagged to send notifications to those interested in that tag (or perhaps to all of that person's friends if a friend's name was used to tag the image), etc. These are things that I think can work, and preserve both sides of the site.

Thank you for those links. :)

My thought on the card making is perhaps to make your card, and then by using the canvas you could have writing in the area off the card, or just do the dedication in the narrative. I still do not see the big deal about it, but trying to offer a suggestion. I really enjoy my close friends on this site, and the abiltiy to see into their personnal style, to me it is creative. I would much rather see a friends pet, than a tilted overexposed pic. of a rusty nail, or something like that. I think it is a real loss to see good members that have been here so long leave, and for me it takes something away from the site,this may not mean a heck of alot to some, but I know it does to others.

I am not sure where the idea came from that I wanted to get rid of the social side of Caedes. It has never been stated on any of my posts. I even stated on the first post how important I felt it was to some members. My suggestion to use Facebook as an extension (I never said it was an alternative) seemed sensible as Facebook has far better social interaction capabilities than Caedes. This would allow more social interaction between friends on Caedes using a mechanism that was not so obvious to the non member visitors to this site. I assumed that others would be as familiar with Facebook as I am, but with hindsight that was a mistake.

Cat has put the arguments for and against text on images much more eloquently than I managed. I merely wanted to separate such images from the mainstream, and felt that Facebook offered an excellent mechanism for such mages to be shared amongst those to whom they are relevant without others having to see them. It was never my intention to not allow such images to exist or be passed between friends and I apologise for not explaining that very clearly at the outset.

I apologise for causing so much upset, and for the inconsiderate timing in broaching this subject. In mitigation my reason for doing so is perhaps not as trivial as I made out at the beginning, but that is no excuse for not respecting other people's feelings.

A suggestion for the card factor: Have it stated what is acceptable for the sharing of cards, and I think Joanie might have mentioned it there could be a catagory for them. Some don't like to vote on them, so it could be stated in the card factor not to put them in the VB. Just giving some thought to this and trying to be constructive. Maybe some of what I have said here, is a repeat from somewhere else in this thread, if so I'm sorry, not trying to take credit for someone's idea.

I'm starting to get happy again :)

Sandi, I really appreciate your coming back at this from a constructive point of view and trying to help solve something that you don't consider to be a problem. My appreciation may not be worth much, but you have it anyway. 8•)

So - from your end, because you like to see the cards and pet snapshots, etc. - what would work for you in terms of a place for them to be, if they weren't in the "new" gallery?

In terms of what deems something to be a "card" rather than an image for the "new" gallery, I think that standard has to be decided by self-moderation. Is the final composition understandable by someone viewing it who does not know the artist and/or the recipient? Would it make more sense if they knew either, but not "less" because they don't? If it matters to the artist which category it goes in, they have to make a decision about where they're placing their narrative - on the image, or in the title/comments/tags.

I'd like to pull from Verena's gallery since we've talked about her, to illustrate what I'm talking about (in addition to Hannah's excellent links above!):

Dedicated to Sasraku - Words in title and on comments.

Dedicated to Ed1958 Words on image.

Showing off her nails Take note of the background and other details - I don't think she succeeded, but this was clearly an attempt to make this an "artistic" image in a greater context.

Winter Rose Word on image are a poem that she wrote that expressed how she felt about the flower, as an enhancement of the image, rather than who it might be for.

Tribute to her mom after losing her Tribute in title and comments, not on image.

All of these were personal ways of sharing herself and her community, and as far as I'm concerned there's only one final composition that stands out *in concept* as not being readily accessible to someone who knew neither her or the person she was talking about.

I give up on you guys givem what they want. Im going to go make pictures and not worry abou all this lame BS any longer.

I think the pet images should still be in the new images and still could be voted on. Some are done so tastefully, that I really don't think that should change.

The cards: perhaps if they have writting on them, like a person's name etc. they should go into a card catagory, and not be voted on, this is just a thought, as I again really do not have a problem with them, but I guess some do. Other types of artistic cards without names (maybe a poem or the like) could still be treated the same, as the poem is there to compliment the artistic work itself. Thank you for the appreciative comment on my suggestion. I think that if the card making is allowed and accepted that will bring back some of those who left, they really were taken aback by it, this I know by reading their pm's. Some might just come on and post but there are many of us who interact with each other, and really do try to help each other out. That is why I was so upset to see them get offended and want to leave, when I do value their friendship, and the advice and help that so many have given me. Goodnight.

When a MOD is criticized by Cyndi (Cynlee), there's no hesitation to place her written opinion in the 'Hall of Shame, because it would have been offensive.

Next, Jimbob (Jimbobedsel) let us know that his mother has passed away. He does this by sending in a picture of her and he uses the narrative as a way to inform us, a possibility which was always allowed on Caedes.
Jimbob's mother was not even buried or his post becomes criticised in a shameless manner. This, apparently, couldn't even wait until after the funeral. This is not only a matter of bad timing, but also demonstrates a lack of respect and discretion.
The MOD's however felt no need to take any measures now. Imagine, doing so could be explained as affecting the freedom of expression.

The next one in the row is Pat (Icedancer). In my view, Pat is the most social person involved at this site, and she contributes most to strenghten the cohesion between the Caedes-members. Her ears are washed however on an unmistakable way.

This all is experienced by me as allowing 'double standards'. This makes me feel less at home on this site, which I basicly love and of which I am a proud member, because this site has a social face too. There may now be offered apologies, but that does not mean that my sad feelings has been removed now. I can imagine very well that my above mentioned friends still feel hurt to the bone.

That's why I decided to show solidarity with them and stop my activities on this site for a while too. Depending on how this discussion will develop and based thereon is decided, I will determine whether or not my I will resume my activities.
Time will tell me.


Cornelius.

Sandi, where did you get the idea that the cards weren't allowed or accepted?

@ Cornelius, how do you know that Chris was referring to Jimbob's post - and as it was his colleague who made the remark, how do you know that Chris even knew which post his colleague was referring to or how recent it was?

@ Cat, I like to answer your question with a question: where did I mention the name of Chris?
Please pay attention to important and not to trivial things.