LynEve made a suggestion over here that came out of a discussion over on this thread.
Due to the concern about repetitive images on the site, but wanting to make this possible, I suggest we post links to images that have been revised based on constructive criticism that was received here, with the revised image having been uploaded to a photo-sharing site, for the purposes of seeing and discussing the results.
I know this is only a stop-gap measure, however, if it receives support, and people seem interested and are using it regularly, it will be more likely have an upgraded version incorporated into the site. 8)
Do you envisage a dedicated photo sharing site account or each member using their own one? Discussions on separate sites could become a bit complicated and convoluted. This is something I have done on several occassions and also for the purpose of comparing two versions of the same image.
My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
Personally, I would think the status quo is the most practical. Linking to a revised/alternate image individually. However, I doubt that really changes anything to encourage members to follow up on suggestions made on their work. A dedicated place on site here would be the ultimate. Perhaps one day......
A notice in News may encourage the practice. This forum is probably less frequented. I believe those who would do the linking thing already do so. :)
My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
As I said above - if interest is shown by using some organized method like this, it is more likely that a space will be made to make it easier.
I can certainly submit it as front page news, I'd just like it to be sorted out first. Can you organize whatever you think would be most useful in terms of making this thread a go-to place for now?
If you want to get something like this going you really should take the initiative and get the ball rolling yourself. If you rely on others to do it for you it probably won't get far as they will lose interest before long.
Personally I consider every suggestion I receive. Often... I even do try out the suggestions on my own as well, to at least see if they improve the image. In the past I have been helped very much by the members here. I think seeing a result may be beneficial for those who desire to view alternatives and/or improvements. Too, I think possibly seeing advice taken in the spirit it is given may be helpful to some that may be less inclined to give (and/or) take critique for what it is designed to accomplish.
I usually don't like reworks on the same shot. I don't do that. Frankly, I don't see the point. But I am glad when somebody suggests something, I want to learn and I use those suggestions and tips on the next shots I am making. So, I am not against learning and reworks, but not on the same photo, because I'd like to move on, not being in one same place.
Suggestion - I proposed this as a stopgap measure, and because the more that it's seen to be used and wanted, the more likely it is to have a place made for it here. Lyn said above that she thinks it would be best if using a photosharing account elsewhere, that there be one account that everyone will upload to, rather than scattered individual places.
If someone here would be willing to set up that account, I'll edit the top post to include that info. By preference, it should be an account where images are kept in a private gallery, and only accessible either by a shareable password, or by logging on as the account owner.
One thought that I have is YaHoo Groups, which can be a closed group, only accessible by request/invitation, and has the availability to create photo albums for the individuals who belong to the group.
We'd need Geri to code it to keep it separate, so that it doesn't interfere with the CoC on the duplicate uploads (because some images won't be sufficiently different, although they *will* be better). His priorities tend to be things that many people are showing interest in, and the more interest the better.
So - beyond just creating this thread and saying "yes, good idea" - if this is truly something people want and are working to find a way to do within the limitations of the site as it is now, the higher up the priority list it will move. (It might be awhile - I am STILL waiting *hint hint hint* for a check all button for my jobs.)
I think such kind of place is an excellent idea. I also read what you had talked about the criticism. There are perhaps people who do not want critique and people who really want to get better.(self) Can you get a symbol to both categories. It can only include,as E mail address in your profile..
A simple solution requiring no coding would be to expand the rules of the Rework Gallery to include self revised images. Given the relatively small number of uploads in that gallery - 24 over a nine year period it could be ultilized for both purposes.
There has been no activity in the Rework Gallery for more than a year.
My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
I think there should be a place..why can't we just upload the "rework" own and other into the 1 gallery "rework Gallery" instead of messing around making a new one.. especially if that particular gallery hasn't been used for more than a year
A) That's not a revision that Geri would want to make unless there is a lot of need/desire for it.
B) It still does not get around the issue of preventing images that have not been revised enough to qualify for reupload. The reason for this portion of the CoC is that visitors who come to find desktops, and are not part of the community, are going to hit the new images gallery. If there is too much repetition of images - several artists reuploading similar looking images, it gets stale, fast, and we lose an audience, potential new members, and whatever revenue is gained from those visitors via advertising rates.
I understand that you want this to just happen, I'm telling you that it's not going to without some work and interest and willingness to work with a mid-way measure until such time as Geri decides to make those kinds of changes. If you don't want to do that, it's fine. I'm just putting this out here as this is what is possible for right now, in an attempt to help get it moving. So - let's either get this thread organized along the lines that were laid out, or let it go.
However the method decided upon, there is always the potential that the original, unretouched image may heve significant value that is never seen by any but the posting subscriber. To be of any significant value to interested menbers, as well as the posting artist, a unenhanced version, regardless of flaws must be available as well. How else could one possibly know what the originator had to work with directly from the camera card, or to be more accurate, the automatically compressed image that ended up in the computer's Pictures folder. Photo.Net has had a system for many years, whereby a reworked image could be added as part of the constructive critque on the same page, immediately under the posted image, with enlarged image link automatically applied. Unfortunately, that only helps the more advanced editors, as it does not show the unretouched original. I'm still a novice in this digital realm, but think you have to begin with the foundation to properly rework a totally unknown image for it to be of value, not only to the original artist, but to anyone who would take advantage of even the most basic retouching tools.
I'd like to apologize for some of the tone of my last post. I created this thread for a specific purpose out of a desire to help - in the only way that I truly see change moving any faster. I've explained above why this stopgap measure helps make that happen.
I don't really care how anything here is done, it is simply a localized place where links can be placed to off-site images to show comparison and share the results of revisions based on constructive criticism. I don't have time to follow up with it among the other things I am taking care of (heck, I still gotta get back to the Scavenger Hunt!). But I would like to stop talking about how to do it (or why it can't be done another way), and either people just start using the thread to post links using their own personal file-sharing accounts, or if someone will volunteer to create a group space and send me the info so I can edit the top post.
Cat, you said "Lyn said above that she thinks it would be best if using a photosharing account elsewhere, that there be one account that everyone will upload to, rather than scattered individual places."
Not to be too pedantic but I actually said that personally I think the status quo is the better option - just upload the revised image to any photoshare account and give the link, as is already done in many instances.
When I first made my original suggestion in August last year (i.e. a dedicated Category)I did so with the idea that it may help with improving interaction and discussion between members and ultimately lead to an improvement in quality in some cases. Also be a learning exercise for anyone interested. I was unaware at the time that the same idea had been mooted before.
If it can not be done it can not be done. I guess I misunderstood the purpose of this thread, thinking it was to get opinions as to the worthiness of such a category and whether members would use it. On reflection I see it was for the purpose of actually starting the comparison idea via photoshare sites so can understand why my 'further' suggestion of using the Rework Gallery does not meet with approval.
Perhaps this thread could be left for discussion purposes and if or when anyone wants to show off their revised image with explanation provided on who gave the advice and how it was done they could start a new one and it could snowball from there. I do see room for confusion if/when multiple projects are 'on the go' at the same time.
"I understand that you want this to just happen" . . . actually no, not at all.
The concept that new membership and increased traffic is generated by high quality unique images is a fair one - repetition is indeed not conducive to this - but I believe all encouragement should be given to members wishing to improve their skills using the advice of others and if they do not have the opportunity to display the 'improved' work then the site is missing out on those images. Maybe if 'improved' images were allowed to be uploaded with the original available for a LIMITED time to allow others to see the comparison after which one of them must be deleted it would work.
(Ooops, that was almost another suggestion ! )
In 2008 when the "Post process Another's Photo" was active in the Photography discussion board there did not appear to be much (if any) concern about multiple versions of the same image being uploaded - and it proved to be an interesting exercise, the thread spanning 6 months. (There are still FOUR versions of the same photo of Noahs Tree in the (Main) Rework Gallery (selected by moderators in those days) and a couple more in personal galleries). Most of the other images in that discussion that were uploaded to photoshare sites have since been removed so the accompanying discussions are useless. I would have thought the small number of revised duplicate images that would arise through a Revised category would have little impact - but that is just my thought.
My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
Lyn - from you above "Do you envisage a dedicated photo sharing site account or each member using their own one? Discussions on separate sites could become a bit complicated and convoluted." This is where I understood you were saying that you thought a dedicated account/site where everyone could upload to would be better.
As far as the revised images - I had previously referenced Les' program, because what came out of that was that even then, interest started to wane with the subsequent images were receiving lower scores in the VB at the time. As I understand that program, the images also had to be different enough to qualify for re-upload as a unique work. Could be wrong, but that's my recall. Les removed the images that he had uploaded off-site because some of them showed up in a google search, and he was accused of theft. LOL!
We now return you to your regular thread - a consolidated place to leave links for revised images that people want to show the difference between that and the image as it was when the received the advice on ways to improve it. 8)
Sounds good but if we do it i can see problems down the road that can lead to more image stealing. If you find problems controlling what we have now do you want to open up that door? I do agree that it is a good idea but i am a realist.
Correct on that there was no real concern with respect to multiple versions being posted. It was a novel idea at the time, sounded like fun and proved to be informative as well.
The four versions that are still in the Main Galleries are a reminder of the community spirit that came out of that creative exercise/challenge. And bear in mind, that not all of the reworks posted were promoted. Those that were.. were and are different to my eyes with respect to the varying creative approaches.
The "Rework Gallery" as it now stands "contains caedes.net images that have been modified or improved in some manner by another member."
In essence taking the verbal or commentary side of the site one step further and providing a visual ... towards ... the ends of enhancing the original image and imparting some tips, advice along the way.
At the heart of commentaries and constructive critiques is not the suggestion of 'hey, change this and then upload/post it'.
It is to get the member/artist to look at their own work/images with a more critical eye. And then apply what may have been gleaned from/imparted via commentaries and constructive critiques.. to their next creative/photographic endeavour.
You can spend hours and hours in the 'editing chair', which is all good.
However, and more preferable in my mind ... would be to address that stuff that needed to 'fixed' after the shot had been taken ... before you took your camera out. For example; learning how and what to adjust ... given the circumstances or challenges that come up due to the ambient lighting or available light in an environment/setting.
Why not learn the 'how to do stuff', as opposed to the 'how to fix stuff'?
And on this note, I don't think the benefits of adding a separate gallery for 'self-reworked' images outweigh the shortcomings. That of investing time in 'fixing' things via post processing, similar images appearing on site to the eyes of visitors, et al.
Better to go out and take more photos ... keeping in mind any suggestions, commentaries and constructive critiques your work has garnered along the way.
'You' won't get better at taking photos if 'you' don't.
Take the time 'you' would spend 'fixing' things in post processing and replace a pc mouse with that of your camera.
I have an idea for what might be a workaround that'll be acceptable to all.
When "we" upload a pic or render, it appears on the Friends list, and is visible to the artist him, or herself, but doesn't appear in New Images until a mod approves it.
So, if one uploads a work in progress, or a rework, or rework suggestion, and it gets marked as such by either a symbol, or a simple word tag in the title? Simply link it to the appropriate thread or forum.
I realize that the CoC might need a slight tweak to allow for this, but overall, maybe at least in theory, I feel this might work as a doable compromise.
Could it please be clarified - is it or is it not permissable to upload ones own revisions to the Rework Gallery ??
I understood not - but its happens - and the reworks are promoted, at least 2 on the first page of the gallery. They deserved promotion. The site gained much improved images because suggestions had been well received.
No mention of it being against the rules, in fact commendation on following through on one from a mod.
Mixed messages here - what is preached is not in practice.
Les, you state above "The "Rework Gallery" as it now stands "contains caedes.net images that have been modified or improved in some manner by another member.""
My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
The purpose of the rework gallery is to "rework" an image (with permission) uploaded by another member, not to "revise" your own images. This has been the case from day one and has been clarified a number of times on the discussion boards, though it may be absent from the FAQ's I'm not sure.
Not really a "rule" as such, that's just what the gallery is for. I know that Piner has been through and changed the title on a number of images that were formally called "rework" by the author. A lot of people do seem to be ignorant of the true purpose of the rework gallery, which doesn't help as people see what they are doing and follow in their footsteps.
"I think it's a great idea Darryl, but I have a feeling a lot of other stuff would end up in that gallery as well because people who see it as a gallery choice when submitting may put any old manipulation in there. Seems like just a slight organization concern but a very good idea."
Seems this member was certainly blessed with foresight...
My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
I haven't read most of this thread, but to me "Tutorials" makes enough sense as a place to post revised images, as long as you explain what exactly has been done and link to the "old" image...
BTW one of those images Cat mentioned is a rework, as it was edited by another member before the member who originally took the photo re uploaded it (presumably after they emailed it to her).
IMO the responsibility rests on the member to make sure they are uploading their images to the correct place, rather than on moderators to move them. I don't know about you but personally I have better things to do thatn trawl through hundreds of images making sure they are in the right place.
Also: Description on the rework galleries page itself:
"This gallery contains caedes.net images that have been modified or improved in some manner by another member. If you plan to submit an image to the Rework Gallery, please ensure you first obtain the original author's permission. Please, add a link to the original image."
I only moved the images that were both revised and reuploaded by the member themselves. Images that someone else had re-done, but the member uploaded themselves, I left alone - for whoever may read this, if someone reworks one of your images, they should upload it under their name, not yours as they are the author of the revisions. They do need to have your permission to do this, as the base image is owned by you.
@ Rob above - that's the kind of thing that would require Geri's involvement for the tweak of the CoC. My experience is that he doesn't do that unless there's something that shows it is useful to people at large. Also, it does not get around the issue of reposting images that have been improved, but not sufficiently to qualify for reupload as a question of keeping the new images gallery from getting repetitive.
I am a oil painter. My rework that is in the main gallery was a painting. I plan on doing other reworks. Where then do I place my art? I always ask permission before painting. I also have photos in other main galleries as well.
"We don't check which gallery every image that is ever approved has been uploaded to.'
But surely you do when they are promoted to the Main Galleries ?
I think it is a shame the images had to be removed from the (Main) Rework Gallery - they are good examples of follow ups on suggestions made and they sat there for a long time harming no one, least of all the site.
The Tutorials Gallery idea - previously it has beeen pointed out that visitors come here looking for wallpaper images and that the best of the best should be displayed- the Tutorial Gallery would harldy be their first port of call.
Only two images sit in the New Images Rework Gallery - I can not for the life of me understand why self reworks can not be included, it is hardly over-utilized. It is then up to the moderators/AC to promote them as deserved, either to the Main Rework Gallery or by simply moving them into a more appropriate Main one.
My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
If the point is to show the difference between the old image and the revised one, then I think the tutorials gallery is the perfect place for them. I thought that was what the idea was (surely better than storing them offsite, in any case).
The issue with changing the purpose of the rework gallery is that I see it quickly filling up with multiple uploads that have little change to them. People already do that (despite the fact that we strongly discourage it) and I think that permitting "self reworks" would only encourage the practice and provide a loophole for people to take advantage of.
Perhaps the fact that such images would only ever go to the "tutorials" gallery would discourage this practice, as it would receive less publicity, so it would only be done in the spirit it was intended.
How often should people be uploading revised images anyway? from my POV, it should be the exception, rather than the rule... if improvements can be made, I would think most of the time members would make them before they uploaded them. *shrug*
"How often should people be uploading revised images anyway?"
Referring back to my Original suggestion I would have envisaged only images that had been worked on following the advice of another member, and that details of the changes made be given.. Most of the time members do upload what they think is the best they can achieve, and it is only after others point out how improvements can be made that the image is 'improved'. Surely that is the point of constructive criticism ? Sure, yes the knowledge can be used for future works - but in the meantime the site is missing out on better versions of the original. It is in the hands of the moderators when approving images to decline any when there are cases of multiple versions,either at the time or later if brought to their attention.
"if improvements can be made,I would think most of the time members would make them before they uploaded them"
Which is where the also mentioned "Work in Progress' could come into play.
My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
I have to say, it all sounds like it would require a fair bit of ongoing maintainence. making sure that people weren't abusing it, chacking that images were in the right place etc... do you think there would be enough interest from members to keep such an idea going? Considering that "rework" seems a more simple idea and as far as I know, not many members utilise it.
All I know is there have been occassions when I have received and followed advice and would have liked the opportunity to be able to display the result, giving credit to the helper. In those cases I have uploaded the revised image to a photo share site and given the link to the helper. No one else but me benefits, no one else sees it. Rework is a good feature but does nothing to help the artist do their own 'renovations'
My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
This is a good idea, it would help to show us learners other options or fixes for our shots, linking would be best but as said above what other site or sites? for me this is the main site that i upload too.
Due to the concern about repetitive images on the site, but wanting to make this possible, I suggest we post links to images that have been revised based on constructive criticism that was received here, with the revised image having been uploaded to a photo-sharing site, for the purposes of seeing and discussing the results.
I know this is only a stop-gap measure, however, if it receives support, and people seem interested and are using it regularly, it will be more likely have an upgraded version incorporated into the site. 8)