A while back I noticed that one author on caedes was benefiting from some dubious voting. For instance, after 13 downloads one image had 39 votes and a rating of 96. At least 26 members must have voted without seeing the image full screen, and most of them thought it worth a score of 10. This is an extreme example, but other images showed a similar pattern.

I can't say whether the author himself was responsible, or even aware, or if it was misguided support from others, and in any case the images were removed soon after. The author uploaded more images, without this voting pattern, and all seemed well.

However, I recently posted a critical comment on an image from this author, and gave it a below-average score as I considered it a below-average image. Shortly afterwards four of my New Images had each received a single vote more than they had previously. Those votes were a 0, another 0, a 1 and a 4, on images whose average vote until then had been almost 8. There wasn't a single comment to go with the low votes. Coincidence, or revenge voting, either by the author or his supporters? Make your own mind up.

(But bear in mind the discussion thread "cheating on caedes" concerning an author who allegedly used to vote up his own images but now votes down others' instead. And no, I'm not the "masked avenger"!)

This isn't a great deal - it's nice when images get good scores but that's not why I contribute to caedes. I'm not complaining or looking for sympathy over a few low votes, because my pictures can stand up for themselves. And I'm not naming any names, or hiding behind anonymity. I would just like the author and his supporters to know that I won't be bullied into withholding constructive criticism where I think it's justified, or into giving images a higher score than they deserve.

Good for you (on the last paragraph). Frankly I'm really tired of this childish behavior. I'm going to take a few minutes right now to change the voting system so that it logs not only the usernames who do the voting, but also what the vote actually was. This will make such behavior much easier to discover in the future.

done

Thank you. This is such a great community that it's a shame some people don't seem able to appreciate what they've got here.

Good work caedes. :) You are not the only one being tired of this kind of stuff. ;) Now give us a link in the caedes control for example where we can view our own ratings statistics in detail. :P That will put the nail in the coffin for anyone trying to give out undeserved bad or good ratings. BTW Simon, I'm sorry to hear about what happened. I thought this kind of things was reserved for me. lol! (Sorry, both of you I guess, I just couldn't hold it back.)

Thank you, you shouldn't be afraid to give criticism. No one should feel bullied. It is a terrible feeling. I welcome advice and never feel that the person was trying to hurt me, but to help.. Whether I follow the advice or not, is my choice..

Nice to hear. I totally agree. I never doubted that about you though. ;)

Another way to answer the original question is: No. It's not currently wise to criticise certain individuals work. Somehow "someone" managed to deprive me of my disposition to do so lately but I heard that was taken care of... I'll just sit tight and let their work *not* get accepted to the permanent gallery and have the last laugh. Or... No, now I'm getting all tired. Not that wise to post much more tonight I guess...

Interesting discussion, my friends. I'm pleased Caedes took the steps listed above. I value constructive criticism. It helps me improve. I would hope that others value it as well. Sometimes I'll even take time to make changes to an image and post them as a link for the author to have a visual reference for my critique. Like Morwyn says, whether the author accepts the advice or not is at their own disgression. I would hope that nobody would take offense at my critiques. They're offered in genuine friendship.

I am very glad that the vote tracking system has been changed! Thank you!

I agree with Nathan, and I have made suggestions when and where I can based on what I have learned! I will continue to do so and I am glad to hear that some want the feedback! I thought that is why we are here, to learn from one another? I have grown leaps and bounds by the critiques by my friends here in Caedes this past year!
I am intrigued to see the difference in scoring now that the votes will be more closely monitored.
JuneBug

I agree with Morwyn... thought that was one of the reasons for the comments is to comment what YOU think of the image and criticise, or suggest and get feedback on your work.. so you know whether you can improve something.. to share your work for others to enjoy..... also thought this was an art site not a soap opera... theres more back stabbing on here than in days of our lives... lol.. (sorry to the d.o.o.l's fans)... if i think something needs to be corrected on an image i will suggest it.. im not going to be intimated by anyone on here... they either like it or dont like it.... when people suggest something or criticise on mine.... i have a good look at the image ... and try the suggestions.... everyone has their own tastes in art... what one thinks is great and perfect.. another will think its below standard and will pick the faults.. its part of life... which im starting to begin to think that certain ones on here dont have.. a life that is.. for me there is more probs to think about than what the votes are or c-index is...

Knew you couldnt be the masked avenger Si....

Wow 7 minutes! Thats realy fast!

Keep up the good work!

You have got to be kidding, right? People are spending time on Caedes jerking other members around? I'd say this falls into the "Get a life" category. Now all you serious people. I appreciate your critical input to my work. It has helped me develop as a photographer, and I expect it will continue to do so into the future.

good move caedes, I have had problems with downvoting on some of my images before. I was just too apathetic to speak out on it. I dont think we should be able to look at what people voted on our images, this should be strictly reserved for caedes and xentrik.

Old man gets on soap box;
It is a shame that we as a society have sunk to such a level of insecurity that we feel the need to be praised with out having the ability to be encouraged to grow beyond our self inflected boundaries. Teachers can no longer grade the students for fear of lowering there self esteem. Yet without mentoring and correction there can be no standards. I there are no standards then there is nothing to reach for, and if there is nothing to reach for then there is no reason to reach. We already see the effects of this mentality today. Look at how many songs, TV shows and movies are remakes or so similar. Why? People are afraid to be original for fear of lack of acceptance. As a God fearing man I believe that we are all unique and we need to do things the way we are compelled. I may not like or understand your work and I may critique it. But that doesn’t mean I’m taking pot shots at you as an individual. I take the same view if someone critiques my work. If we keep going down this road there will be no need for color film or CCDs everything will be gray.

Now… can someone help me off this @#!%@$##^ box!

You all can use me as an example. When I came to Caedes, I thought my imgages were really nice. I welcomed the feedback and I learned to see what you saw. I tried to implement the suggestions that were brought to my attention. Go look in my gallery today. I know I still have a lot to learn, but I have gone from amateur to walking along side some of the other artists in here who I respect! A huge tks to everyone!
JuneBug

*makes example of June* j/k hehe

i agree tho.. criticism is needed for each and every one of us to grow as artists.. helps us see things we missed.. or even to just look at things in new light.. i welcome criticism.. and i try to offer it when it seems fit.. i guess, its all about the way its presented..

I even had my daughter sign up here so she could get critiqued by others. (Teenager don't listen to parents.)

Great idea, they only learn once they become parents themselves!
JuneBug

It's a shame that Caedes has to devote actual time to change the voting system at all. It's rather pathetic that a person's life would be pathetic enough where they need an art's site's C-Indexes to feel important or powerful. I'm probabably going to see a 40 point drop in all my C-Indexes haha, but seriously I think it's rather sad that some resources have to go into stopping these types of things when other nice features could have been developed.

What really improves someones abilities is hard work...An ability to find new methods and a lot of practise
People look different at life, their art shows that difference
Life is a personal awareness,Art is a way to express that personal awareness...
Try to SEE the other persons awareness of life through their art instead and see it as a gift that can add something in ur own life ...
From that viewpoint i think If we dont find anything in a picture that we like Its better to Shut up than to add negative energy to another persons viewpoint of life....
If the person asking for criticism, Ask him why he cant find a way to improve his art himself and develop his personal touch instead of taking other peoples opinions as a law to follow.....;-)

i can't say that i really agree with you. 1. many people do, in fact, want and ask for any criticism. 2. if someone makes images to express their inner feelings, etc, and wants to upload them to the public, then he or she should be aware that such criticism will come, and take that criticism as a way to improve their ability to express themselves.

I think a lot of us are erasing that line between criticism and insults. I've gotten plenty of criticisms and insults, but honestly everyone is entitled to their oppinions. Just take the criticisms and do what you will with them, but don't complain about it...rather childish

When we as individuals tells people how they should think and react its still just our personal opinion and not a general law that other people have to agree about or follow as their own opinion...I think its better to encourage people than to tell that they are doing bad...I think thats a better way to help people to improve their art too.I think that if someone everyday told us that we should do like this instead, or do like that, or no that doesnt look good, or try another way etc we would find it very boring after a while and maybe even get a little tired about the whole thing..In fact i know people who stop doing their thing because they never get a chance to develop their own style because that other "Experts" was so quick to tell them how they really should do...
I agree about that if someone ask for advise or criticism we can tell them our opinion, its ok....But if we think about how much materials that has been written about art, it might gives more to just read a lot of books in the subject or study the thing in another way...
It also gives the person a freedom to pick what they find interesting themselves and not because other people say they should. Art is a personal thing and thats what i like about it...It shows different views and differents styles and it can give u a new perspective of something u never thought about yourself ,even if its not technical perfect....
Here on Caedes most people seems to have realised this because its mostly positive comments or no comments at all, and i think thats the right way to reflect on other peoples work...:-)

ok.. for example.. if someone made very low quality images and everyone said how great a job he or she was doing, then that person would not know that the quality was bad and would continue... i know that when i started out, the quality of my images wasn't so good, and i'm sure there were a lot of other problems with what i made. i was far from a "pro", and if i never got the criticism that came, i wouldn't be nearly as experienced as i am now. nothing anyone said stopped my from developing my own style. most of the criticism has nothing to do with how the image shoud look, just general things like quality, brightness, etc. i am hesitant, like many others, to leave these comments though because some people might take it the wrong way.

I agree. There are in fact a fair few Caedes members in that particular boat. I have seen any number of consistently under-developed images posted by an artist to ecstatic reviews. It really isn't helping that person. Encouraging somebody to improve is not a bad thing.

Conversely, posting over-the-top positive comments on an undeserving piece of work is not helping that person. They could well end up not improving and head for a particularly nasty fall. I think the friendly and community-spirited thing to do would be to help that person by gently encouraging them.

The fact that most pieces of work on Caedes attract either no comments or glowing praise from the people who view it is a very sad thing for our little community.

Well, Art is a personal thing and a lot of new different styles has come up only because that some people didnt follow the general "laws" or "rules"...Technique is something people could read 1000 of pages about if they really want to learn and improve in the subject, but u cant teach a person about what he WANTS to express, Thats what i meant with that Art is a personal thing...If you really want to improve your abilities in art i think theres a lot more effective ways than to post a picture on here and wait for peoples comments and maybe advises....Its nothing wrong to comment peoples work, but for me its not so serious, its just fun to encourage peoples work..Im not here to help people improve in Art, i give credits to the ones i like and leave the other for someone else to comment, i have no duty to comment things i dont like, But if someone feels that their mission here is to help people to improve in art its fine 4 me, its just not the reason for why i am here.....

i don't remember anyone having a problem with people expressing themselves in their art. no one said anything about how everyone should follow the same rules with their art and i'm sure no one here would want that. getting negative feedback on an image, if nothing else, shows me that people are interested in my image. if someone uploads a not so good image and nobody comments on it, the person might not think anyone likes it, but also won't know the reason. it's fine with me that you do what you do, but if everyone did so, hardly any progress would be made and the quality of images would not improve.

Well i dont agree at all with you....If a person really wants to improve his skill in something i dont believe he only do that because of other peoples criticism...
Im a musician since 25 years back and the thing that makes me improve was my own passion for music and the hard work i spend of practising hours for hours...
I think more people should ask themselves WHAT they want to achieve with their Art, what they want to EXPRESS with their art, and how they can IMPROVE it the best and most effective way....Maybe we talk about different aspects of art, For me Art is something spirituell, a wish to express something from a personal viewpoint.
Sure, there is a technical aspects on it too, but isnt it more effective to buy a book from some great photographer and spend a week to read it if u want some great advices, and why shouldnt people have that opportunity to improve themselves whatever i comment their work or not? If a person have a passion for something i trust in that persons ability to improve himself even without my help....But as i say, its ok to comment other peoples work and give constructive criticism, but that is not for me the only way for a person to improve his ability, in fact there is a lot of ways to improve nowadays with all information we got in this society. So i have another opinion than you in that matter.

*gives up*

Yes, I can see that the opinions differ. I also see what you are saying about expressing oneself.

However, I don't think that helpful criticism is going to stifle innovation and creativity. Technique can be a useful spur to achieve one's artistic goals.

To take your music analogy, I play guitar (badly, and I haven't picked it up in months, but hey...) I used to know this guy that was a brilliant guitarist, technically. He liked to play hard rock and metal and could produce the most amazing riffs and solos. Anyway, the point is that the reason he was so damned good was because he had studied classical guitar to grade 8 (the highest grade). But did he play classical music? No - he played what he wanted to. OK, it's probably not a great analogy of mine, but I suppose the point is that the technical learning and criticism that he received during his years of learning a traditional style did not diminish his enthusiasm and creativity to do what he wanted. After all, it used to be standard practice for artists to study and copy the old masters before they used their own style.

Anyway, it's interesting to have this discussion and like you say, Tommy, each to their own.

Having been a parent and raising three children to adulthood. I found that positive renforcement of things well done, and ignoring things not so well done, worked much better, in teaching my children, than criticism. People learn better, no matter what their age or level of education, from being told what they are doing right, rather than what they are doing wrong. Kindness works much better than cruelty.. If you feel you need to tell someone they are making terrible mistakes, it is better to do it privately, than in front of others.. Beng publicly embarrased is very cruel and hurtful, no matter how well ment.

Same to you Captain Hero! :-)..I prefer to encourage and point out the good thing unless the person has asked me to say whats wrong with a picture....
If we have a passion for something im sure we will find ways that will help us to improve....Influences, Schools and 1000 other things is there for us to use if we want it, so i dont think anyone should feel depended on comments at Caedes for making process with their Art...Thats for me a too small perspective on this subject.....
And i agree with how you best raise a child...They need a lot of positive encouragement!!

Well as I been on many forums and communities member, I have encountered a great gains and disadvantages from voting systems. As One person started to give low scores He soon discovers that all his works got the same low scores , and no matter how good they were it was obvious anti-author vote. There Is no clear way to solve these problems - removing voting system totally maybe, or making it invisible until 10 people voted , so there wasn't any way to find who voted for it.

I agree about removing the voting system...its enough to leave comments in my opinion..

well, for people visiting and browsing the galleries, it is good to have a system for ranking images.

Maybe so....They can have it or leave it, for me it doesnt really matter.

Sorry, but I find it pointless to point fingers at those who choose to make a point of pointing out what might be improved in an image. ^_^ Thinking art is spiritual is not the issue IMHO. I do to.

That's why I find it appalling to find people who set their mind to not develop as artists at any cost. Not tolerating constructive critique is not making anyone a better artist... Are you more likely to find advice by reading books about art if you have such a disposition to begin with? I wonder...

Your arguments seems to be made from the "best of worlds" if you know what I mean. Most of us don't live in that world though... Posting images on the internet is not for the faint of heart I believe. I dont' think you can be too touchy about comments you get. If you can't take any advice or accept that some things might be done to improve the quality of the piece then you should perhaps reconsider what you are doing here.

Some have expressed very clearly that they don't want to try even to develop their skills... I don't think the community or anyone have anything to win on encouraging such ideas.

Sure I'm not taking the time regularly to give feedback to stuff I really don't care about. I've made some exceptions in the past since I actually find it quite offensive to see raving comments on really crappy pieces. I don't have time for such anymore but I'm still wondering seriously about the taste and judgement of some people.

Not my problem, I know. I'm just my usual curious self. :P

My final point if you can consider it one: Me giving constructive critique is what I have to contribute with to the community and the site since I really, seriously have no spare money over to contribute as a member of the cadre. Giving feedback is my gift in return to the author as a way to show my appreciation for the art he presents.

Don't tell me that I shouldn't comment in any particular way. It's my choice. You do it your way and I do it mine. I'm having a better confidence, because of recent events, that I'm not going to be harassed in any way for speaking my mind in the future. I'm not saying positive feedback is not a good thing either. I'm sure most that get comments from me would agree.

I think it's pretty plain: If your art sucks be prepared to hear about it at some point. It's not to be mean. It's a gesture of friendship to be honest. Giving false praise is NOT what I think good friends should do. But I've seen too much of that sort here to think people give a damn about calling up, up and down, down. I do however.

I would definitly love to stress many points made in kjh000's post. When I give criticizm's on images, you should never take anything personally as an insult. I did not come to caedes to insult people. I am more of a drawing artist and I decided that I would love to learn a new form of art and in coming here I did not just predict I would get criticized, I expected it. If you don't want to get any better at this form of art, than why waste time on this website? Art is not at all about making pretty little pictures that everyone will ooooo and ahhhhh at. These types of pictures are only a way to help express yourself. I would love nothing more than to have criticizm on my works. If it means I will be improving on ways to express myself, than I'm all ears. I've been studying art for atleast 16 years and I don't want to just be stagnant in skill level. Art is a learning process, and when I give criticizm, I would love to receive it back.

Amen to that! :)

My points exactly.

Haven't we beaten this poor horse to death??

Sure. I just prefer not to think of it in terms of a horse... ^_^ You might know though that I'm usually answering to arguments that I could have a thing or two rather valid points on. That's the kind of guy I am.

Its perfectly fine to have different viewpoints on a subject, it might give the whole subject a wider sphere...And criticism is a subject with many aspects...

About the book thing...
You get it wrong,it was just one option by many for people who might not find criticism on Caedes as the best way to improve..Who maybe wants to study the subject a little deeper....They dont have to be depended on Caedes to become good Artists, thats my only point, which im sure u can agree about...

If people want to post their work here to get criticism its perfectly fine for me, i dont judge anyone for giving constructive criticism...Personally I just want to encourage people to get on with their art, and sometimes suggest a good site where they can find interesting information about Art..
We have never had so fast acces to information as we have now ,so why not use it?? We can learn a lot!!

" A man got to know his limitations "

HAHA !!You are a damn Swedish like me kjh 000!! Heja Sverige!

People criticise from their own taste and viewpoints, I understand perfectly well that some people like to get that feedback so i leave that subject...
The question was if it was wise to criticise...
I gave my opinion about it, I cant say that its wise to criticise, i cant say its bad to give constructive critics, its what comes out of it that is the only interesting thing for me...
Its so easy to tell people that they should react in the same way as ourself, and if they dont its something wrong with them, I dont like that kind of selfish attitude, and critics is a lot about personal opinions and taste...

Some people can take it ,some cannot, I prefer to not judge the people who is sensitive about their work and might feel wrong indicated of someones "help"...I dont know all the reasons behind peoples reactions so i prefer to not judge them for it...

If we want to help people ( which is a good thing) i feel its better to ask people what they want to express and see what their personal opinion is first, for me thats Wiser cause then i know more about what the person really tries to express and that is of course a very important thing to know if I really want to help someone....Its nothing wrong to do it another way, it just not suits me.....

I might not live in the "Best of worlds" But i can act in the way that i think will make it better instead of just accepting this World as something u cant change.....

Well I understand what you mean in this one, unfortunately yes somepeople take it personally (even in an anonymous world interestingly enough). In my oppinion, I don't think I should be worried what some of the more sensitive people will feel if it means the dedicated artists on this site will gain from it. From my understanding, do you think it is a gamble to criticise? -- What I mean is...are you unsure if the person your criticising is a sensitive user or a dedicated artist?

If someone is insulted by my criticism on their image, than they can tell me and I will no longer comment on any of their images.

I think that it is definately wise to criticise only because criticism is what really improves techniques and skill. Actually criticism is the only reason why I am still on Caedes..I feel that I have definately improved in this area of art since I started here.

I think a good tip from someone with more experience is totally awesome.I have gotten quite a few tips from this site that has propelled me farther ahead than I would be had someone not taken the time to explain to me a better way.Sometimes all it takes is a new perspective and if nobody offered advice or their opinion how who you get that?

Ok i got your points. There are things i agree about and also things i disagree about.Thanks for sharing your opinions ...
No i dont think its a gamble to criticise, i think people criticise because they think they might help someone to improve or just because they want to say their personal opinion.
Its another question if criticism always helps people to improve, for some it might, for other it might not.. It all depends on what the Artist do with it...
But dont get me wrong...Most of the people here are very respectful and give their criticism in a respectful way, so i enjoy my visit here ....:))

If you think that sharing my viewpoints in the way of constructive critique is my way of saying that I'm better then you, then we might have a slight misconception somewhere along the discussion. It's not an act of selfishness I'm performing. It's my way of sharing what I have to give. My point of view. That is not saying that there is a more valid point of views on things. Anyone thinking so is no one I'd like to discuss with... (Mostly because it's not that stimulating I guess... I also guess someone more enlightened then me might put up with it (for some time at least)...)

The whole point with point of views is that you have many in the world and the only way of learning from others, and widening your horizon is to hear a thing from, perhaps a different perspective. I don't judge "sensitive artists". That's fine by me. It doesn't even irritate me the slightest and I wouldn't go about telling them things they doesn't want to hear.

(What bugs me are things of a slightly different nature. Among others: Cheating, self indulgence, ego-mania and favouritism. I'm happy for you if you don't see these things around. You will lead a much nicer life that way.)

I do however NOT think it's my duty to be certain that someone will not be offended by what I say. That's not my business. If you want to waste your energy on thinking I'm an idiot for saying what I think - be my guest. It's none of my business either, but I find you overly careful for what others might feel for what you express. We can't make everyone happy and should not even try. (I think you will agree that there are some peoples wishes that are left unrealized...)

No one stands above the next man in points of views. It's just different aspects of the totality of reality that we express. This can be received in any number of ways but that is left for the recipients discretion. (This is actually, and quite naturally so, also an expression of the different aspects of totality of reality...)

I too act as if I'm thinking that what every man does can make a difference. The way I understand you, it sounds like you don't want contribute if you don't know you will be well recieved. What's making the difference there? It doesn't make sense to me. (But that's ok. I'm not you and you are the one it makes sense for.) What you think is proper in this case opposes what I might find proper. This is ok by me too. And as far as I can tell you accept this difference as well.

I doubt we will wake up tomorrow and realize that what that other guy said actually made the most sense and stop thinking like we do. That's not the point. We don't need to win the argument and make the other guy turn it's back on what he believes in. The point is to share the world with each-other (by for example the means of art, music and discussions) and in doing so perhaps grow beyond the boundaries we put up around us. One day we'll get there perhaps. I hope so at least...

The above was posted before I noted tommy62s last post. It's the drawback of writing a message over a period of some hours...

ramble on, rambling rambler...

Horse burgers anyone??. This horse is dead..

Its a lot in your comments i can agree about, and im not either writing here to make other people change their opinion ( if it was that easy this world would look different)
No i just share my point of view about a subject i find interesting....

I am not afraid about how my comments will be recieved cause i dont give other people that power over myself, i dont let other people decide my value, thats what we called Integrity ( To observe something as real and have the guts to tell it)
Its just my own experience that encouraging works better and i hope other people can respect that without any rude comments...

Maybe the people who like to give critics ALSO can improve their abilities and also learn more about Art if they also ask more about what other people wants to express and what kind of methods they use or what they are trying to achieve..it might make the critics more right indicated and a lot of missunderstandings might be avoided...
Maybe that would be one way to erase the boundaries you talked about?
Two way communication is a very good way to raise the understanding between different people, i think that would work fine between Artists as well....

Who says that encouraging people is not a contribution?
Thats MY Contribution which together with other peoples negative and positive criticism makes a balance in the total picture...
We contribute with our personal point of view and it makes a variation and a different perspective that other people either can neglect or agree about....
Finally...I share your wish that people hopefully could grow beyound their boundaries so we could achieve more understanding and with that also learn a lot more about life....

Agreed. :) I haven't got much further to add right now. (But the "horse" lives as long as there is people that think it does... Only a qualified, certified metaphorical veterinarian can convince me otherwise (if at all). ^_^) I find many of your points good too. I'm very open to discussions and suggestions from other artists. That's what I try to encourage. That's my main goal in being here on caedes.net in fact.

Like I said (and I do hope it got through) it's not about me knowing everything and being right about things that makes me want to give out constructive critique. If I only comment on things I master my self then I would be very silent at large. I'm in the ever so slowly learning, amateur gang here. I don't think it's about being expert or anything. It's all about having an open discussion for me.

Cheers, and go Sweden btw! ^_^

/Klas

Metaphysics? That's a new one for here.

lol! Ok... I'd accept a written statement of a metaphysical vet too. (Or was it perhaps the earlier post(s) you referred to?)

No problem, it gets through what you're meaning...Cheers!

What a great discussion.

Morwyn: feel free to unsubscribe from it. At least a couple of people and maybe more seemed happy to continue with the debate.

Since it is against my religious beliefs to say things that harm others... I will refrain from making a reply to your comment to me, other than to say..
"Leave the "discussion"!! NEVER!! I am having too much fun... I will stop making comments in this thread the day the rest of you do, unless caedes himself, tells me to stop.."

Haultain suggests there are three unfathomables that have gripped the minds of men: metaphysics, golf, and the female heart.

Hmmm... .Morwyn raises an interesting point.. she opines that Caedes is male "unless caedes himself, tells me to stop" .. I guess I just assumed that the Great_and_Powerful_Wizard_Caedes was all genders. *shrug*

"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" <--loose quote .. Wizard of Oz.

Actually Caedes's real name is in one of these discussions on this site....I believe so...I don't know if I should reveal it though :) Although if your part of the Caedes Cadre...you should know his real name ;D

You do know that somewhere on the site is a photograph of Master Caedes? If you can find it, it will solve many of your queries...

Oh,, this is fun... The point I have been trying to make here is there are gentler ways to tell someone that they are making mistakes, than to just say "that's a lousy image, or that you should have done it this way.. That is what I have been reading into this debate.. We have had a round and round on the same point, for several posts. Same points being made over and over, it was beginnning to get redundant..... Can someone come up with something new??
As to whether Ceades is male or female... Well, I was raised to use the male, when gender was unknown.. Sorry guys, I was raised to be a lady and Mom is always looking over my shoulder.

I think I have an idea how to eliminate all these problems with voting system.

Let's make something like p-index :) Popularity index

So if someone makes a work , others are going to check it, and if the person who downloaded image, likes it , he gives 2 points, if not he gives 1 point. And the more people download it , and rate it is better , so no more problems with voitng.

What do you think? Am I missing something ?

The C-Index is supposed to show the success of the image already..lol

Hmm as I understand c-index is dependant on actual votes , so the lower the votes the lower c-index ?

Actually it is dependant on the View/Download ratio, Votes, and how many people have it in their favorites.

I think its the same as judging music.Some like it some dislike it...Thats almost the same as democracy...That something has a majority doesnt mean that ALL people like it,,,
So why not just accept the things you cant do so much about? If people dislike my images i respect that because i cant do anything about it...If i have a passion for Art and take all the advices in the world it's STILL possible that some people dont like it..
Maybe it should be more important for people that they are satisfied with something themselves and not be too depended about what other people thinks..
.
If a lot of people think someone has an ugly face, should he be a miserable person because of that, and try to adjust himself to other just to please them?( Operate a face can be very expensive) :(
Dont take this index system too serious, If u are satisfied with a work today u might not yourself like it after 3 years because then u might have a better skill and a greater ability to express yourself even better..Be your own adviser because u know best what u want to achieve and express, but listen to other people, find new information, practise more, but never lose yourself and what you want to express . At the end YOU have to be satisfied with what you're doing if you want to have some fun with your art and keep the passion alive...
Thanks for the word!

great tommy :) I completely agree with you.

Well said my friend couldnt have said it better myself....
Agree with you.. :)

Man....if I could create as well as tommy writes........

Certainly noone should take the c-index too seriously. Having said that, it is a rough benchmark to judge an image, so people do take note of it.

However, I think the original post was to do with leaving constructive (note: not negative) criticism on images and then getting revenge voting on your own gallery. Like many discussions, this one seems to have come a long way.

Namely... ^_^

O{<=

You're right, i did my share to go a little off topic ,so my apologize for that.
Constructive criticism has two sides, the one who gives it, and the one who receive it...if the receiver dont agree he might find it as wrong indicated critics and therefore feel its negative criticism,but the one who gave it still thinks its a very constructive idea..
Thats the problem we always have to deal with in all aspects of life...Different opinions.Who is right and who is wrong?

Revenge voting means that you really have to get off the computer for at least 1 year, take long walks,hang out with friends, find a girl or boyfriend and find out what really matters in life.....

tommy, i think you have hit the nail on the head on revenge voting, someone definitely needs a life on that one?

Hahaha... Agreed! ^_^

:o)

Yes, it is very sad indeed.

Maybe a "MATRIX" sympthom?

What? Seeking the truth beyond the veil of distorted reality that is drawn before our eyes? Where do I sign up?! ^_^ (Just kidding...)

Yeah! I sign up too...:-))

I am a very new member here; I just uploaded my first image, which probably isn't very good, but I would welcome honest criticism. I would even appreciate someone telling me that my work sucks, if it in fact does suck in the eyes and experience of better artists. As far as I'm concerned, that is the only way to know what I need to do to become better.

People who indulge in revenge voting are turning this into petty popularity contest, instead of what I think it is intended to be (and what attracted me to this site to begin with); a chance to exchange art and knowledge with those who share a similiar interest.

Hope you will enjoy your visit here..

Hi...I first poked my nose into this website in March. Was looking for some nice desktop wallpapers and fell upon this site. I mainly LOOKED up until I worked up the courage to post a picture of my dog on May 1. I've since uploaded numerous images and, while I'm sure there are some game players here (they're everywhere), I've found the feedback respectful and, hopefully genuine, and I've tried to show others the same respect. I think that's the key. What I've seen here is a large group of enthusiastic artists who relish having a forum to share their work and who are looking for ways to develop their artistic talents. My tendency has been to pass by those images that I'm not impressed with and to zero in on those that I am. Hence, I take the time to praise what I view as good work and I tend to ignore what I view as work of lesser quality, though there's no way I can possibly comment on all of the great work here. One thing's for sure....I want honesty from those who take the time to comment on my work. There are respectful ways of offering well intended criticism and it's less respectful to tell someone you like their work when you don't than to either ignore it or offer helpful suggestions. Nice to meet you all.
Wen

Thank you Wendy..

Sure I've nothing to oppose to that. Totally agreeable way to act and reason. I'm just making an exception for people that are making themselves popular by thousands of pointless comments and that I know have or (certainly) had been cheating and not are properly exposed or made to face any consequences.

Hi, Klas. I just downloaded your "Pasture by the Creek," and must tell you that I think that's one of the prettiest shots on this site! What I hear several saying is that it's pointless to have a rating system if people are reluctant to give images a ranking that actually makes a relative distinction between very good work and less than impressive work. That only makes sense. If your teachers/professors gave everyone As and Bs, getting an A or a B wouldn't mean very much, would it? I think part of the issue here is that "beauty is, in large part, in the eye of the beholder." But there are still ways of spotting images that reflect noteworthy time and creative effort and those that do not. The rating system HOPEFULLY MOTIVATES people to upload their best work rather than discouraging them from participating.
Wen

Thanks. It's not that good though... ^_^

(I know my limits... and basically nothing I do is good in terms compared to most of say, the stuff photoimagery does. :P)

Good points anyway, makes a lot of sense. I'm still rather discouraged but I'm slowly picking up my old ways.

I agree with you there too. ;)

(My best hope atm is to basically ignore this issue at large though. ^_^ I'll try at least...)

Yes, Wendy I totally agree with your point about high scores becoming meaningless if people consistently vote high. It's one of my bugbears. However, I am often guilty of looking only at the images I like from the thumbnails (though not always). I guess if we were all conscientious (and had limitless time!) we would look at all the images including the ones we didn't like the look of and then vote accordingly, rather than cherry-picking the good-looking images and then voting high.

Still, life goes on...

Klas, if you beleive someone is cheating, then you should report it to caedes.. For myself, I don't see the point in cheating.. The only person who gets cheated, is yourself.. Nor, do I see the point in looking at images, that to my eyes, not worthy of my time.. Therefor I ignore them.. I have many hours on my hands .. I care for my 83 year old mother .. This I show I spend my spare time .. I do have lots of it.. How can anyone's comment be pointless.. It is an acknowlegement of a persons work.. It is a gift from a person who finds that work worthy.. As Wendy says beauty is in the eye of the beholder.. I am sorry some of you don't have the time available to you that I have.. I find that very sad.. Personally I will continue to comment on artwork I enjoy and vote accordingly..I do not always vote high, but if I view an image I always download, vote and comment.. The scores are fun, but if none of my images remained in the galleries I would not be devastated and I would contuinue to come here and look at peoples images.. I love art and I have found this site one of the best places on the internet for it.. I have been an artist for nearly all of my 60 years, and will continue to create beautiful art works till the day I die..

I've had my talks with the man and it's not going to be dealt with even if it is acknowledged to have taken place. He simply won't deal with it upfront.

(Some measures have been taken but people that did those kind of things just basically got an absolution and a clean slate. I guess that is some kind of sign of grandeur on behalf of the chief but it bugs me since those artist have made their name as cornerstones of the community (that I once was solely proud to be part of) on their stupefyingly unjustly high ratings that they gave themselves plus the stereotype comments of stale flatter. (And that was not as bugging as when they tried to be sensitive artists and go about on what pieces got into the permanent gallery or not (they had such good c-indexes so how could they not be accepted, level skyline or not) or how they cleaned their own galleries... Maybe you have missed some of the soapopera action here in the beginning of the year? ;) (lol!!!) Go have a blast in the archives in that case...))

It has been decided somehow that it's not a problem. And that is a problem to me. Not as much now but I had a big problem with it. Now I just don't care much except I'm still appalled by some of the personal cults here. Apathy has won me over.

(I think some of the "cults" are deserved though but that is a whole other thing. There are as you no doubt know some outrageously good artists posting works here. (And no I'm not one of them. ^_^) I've got no problems with the way you deal with things at all btw. Just don't lecture me on what to think, say of feel and I'll be fine with most things.

My take on pointless comments is to say the same thing almost every single time. That's like giving every work a 10. That would also be to answer back to every possible question with the same answer... Tell me... is that meaningful?

hmm

welp, I know who the good artists of this site are, and I'm learning alot from them so I guess the purpose of this site to me is just that and it is definately fulfulling that. The other lame cheaters are nothing but annoyances. Scores mean nothing to me. This site is soely a learning process. The old cliché "cheaters never prosper" is quite true. If they want a lied score, so be it. Too bad they will never know what people really think of their stuff. It's too bad their scores are inaccurate and will never get an honest "benchmark." I'm happy that I have the scores that I got. I know they are accurate because they are based completely on the scores of other people, and not myself. I don't use this site to feel "powerful". I guess what I'm trying to say is, I've never actually noticed any cheaters. And besides, a cheated score is something we can all look at and be competetive towards :)

There are "politics" everywhere, and I don't expect that this site will somehow escape those who are so intent on standing out or being on top that they'll do just about anything to do so. From what I've seen here thus far, however, that's a small minority of members. Most seem to be here to share and grow. As you suggest, it seems rather pointless to "cheat" here. As I see it, the "competition" here is more WITHIN people than BETWEEN them, by and large - - at least that's how it feels from my angle. I thorougly enjoy seeing great work by others and don't find that personally threatening in the least. It gives me ideas and something to shoot for, in addition to something great to look at.
Wen

Totally agreed again. ^_^ I'm not sure I agree that having a personal cult and a reputation of being a great artist is to not prosper though... I'll not add any more to this discussion atm. I agree that it's not much to care about. I've long ago let go and don't think there are any big problems anymore at large. I'm just not happy with how it all turned out. The community didn't exactly prosper as a bonus to all of this... It has forever changed my view on this place. (Especially since the ones I'm talking about are those that managed to set the tone around here.)

Yes that whole cheating thing was very sad.

I too have noticed the little cults and cliques. Like you say though, they're not all bad, and there are certainly some outstanding artists on this site (though not always the ones that get the floods of comments!).

True. Just like real life I guess... ^_^