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Discussion Board -> Desktop Wallpaper, Art, etc. -> Low voting

Low voting

::CaptainHero
06/25/05 10:40 AM GMT
Like most members I don't take much notice of the Caedes Control option showing the breakdown of statistics for your images. After all, I don't upload images just to see how many votes I can get!

However, recently I have looked at a few of my submissions periodically to see how they fare. A number of times I have seen a similar pattern - the first one or two votes I receive are high and then suddenly it plummets.

Take one image I uploaded recently for example: I checked it soon after submission and found it had one vote and a raw voting score of 100 - a generous person had given me 10/10 for that image. A little while later I had a look and found that I now had 3 votes and a raw voting score of 60. My mathematics isn't great but that aggregate total suggests that the next two voters gave me an average of 4/10 for that image. Even worse, one of them could have given me, say, 7 or 8 out of 10 which means that the remaining voter had to have voted 0 or 1 out of 10.

Now: I'd like to say for the record that I can't claim my images are great - that would be arrogant. I don't expect high votes, though I am pleased and flattered when people do give me decent scores. However, I would say that my images aren't absolutely terrible so I am surprised to get scores below 5/10 - the average mark. Maybe I am getting negative voting for having annoyed someone, or perhaps I am being paranoid. Maybe my images really are that bad, I don't know...

Then again, maybe my mental arithmetic is off the mark...! Has anyone else experienced similar things, or does anyone have any suggestions or ideas about this issue?

[Edit: Shortly after posting this topic, I had a look at the image again. By this time I had 4 votes and a raw score of 70, so that last voter had given me a 10 - once again I am flattered. But it just highlights again the gulf between the votes. Now: everyone is entitled to vote freely, but it is clear that one or both of those two middle voters gave a very low score.]
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell

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::verenabloo
06/25/05 8:16 PM GMT
Ok I was just checking into some of the Lonely Images...my Paled Purples has an 81 on it..isnt that ok? not too lonely sounding lol...then my "its the ocean, baby!" has 90 thats not so bad either..lonely? nawww...then I noticed Rob Nevins Car Buffs one of them...has a 90 and yet its Lonely? nope dont think so..how do they rate this I wonder? anyone know??
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Going barefoot is the gentlest way of walking, and can symbolize a way of living.It's the feeling of enjoyment beneath our toes...it removes the barrier between us and nature...(AdeleCoombs,Barefoot Dreaming)
MiLo_Anderson
06/25/05 8:31 PM GMT
The loney images have nothing to do with how high they are rated from my understanding. I think there was a tread on the exact formula, but i believe it puts images in there that don't have very many votes and arn't very old. I would search for the formula, but apparenlty the search is down for testing. I'll try again later.

As far as low votes, it could just be that people have different oppinions. I sometimes go to pictures and see that they have very high ratings and i don't like them at all. If that is the case i may vote lower then the norm because that is what i think it deserves. The same is true the other way around. Sometimes i find images that arn't doing well at all, but i think they are very well done and then i vote higher then the norm. I think it has alot to do with different peoples perspectives and what hits peoples buttons. I highly doubt it is a consperiacy against you.
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"A piece of toast with butter always lands butter side down, and a cat always lands on its feet. What happens if a piece of toast is tied butter side down to the back of a cat? Does it perpetually hover above the ground in indecision when dropped?"
::CaptainHero
06/25/05 8:54 PM GMT
No, you are probably right - it is unlikely to be a conspiracy. But there is a difference between seeing your overall score drop a little and seeing the actual accumulation of votes on the Caedes Control screen.

Still, I guess even if someone was sniping at me it's unlikely to have much effect on the overall score as long as plenty of other people vote (unless we go back to the bad times of multiple usernames and revenge voting, but I think Caedes has more of a grip on that now).
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
::WENPEDER
06/25/05 9:01 PM GMT
"Multiple User names and Revenge voting?" No kidding?! I thought the people on this site were above those kind of playground antics. For the most part, from what I've seen, the vast majority here ARE above that, but you know what they say about "a few bad apples."
Wen
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::CaptainHero
06/25/05 9:08 PM GMT
No sadly it has happened. Some well-known members were involved - particularly with boosting their own votes. However, as far as I know it has stopped.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
kjh000
06/26/05 10:29 AM GMT
I get those votes all the time. I was just about to get a bit more annoyed about it then usual and was thinking of posting more or less the exact thread you started here Matthew. It's definitely a trend for me and since most of my stuff doesn't get many ratings it's definitely having a bad overall effect in the end. I guess my stuff is a bit more on the side-roads then your stuff though so I don't rule out the reason to be that people find my stuff offensively, stupefyingly ugly. ^_^

I'm more certain then you that I get votes around 1-2 most of the times though, not because I care so much about it but it has happened so many times and it has eventually caught my attention. I have no new enemies as far as I know but I guess I could live on my old merits in that regard.

In the end, the only thing that really ticks me is that they could tell me man (or what ever) to man that my piece really sucks and give me a few pointers of why. That would be no problem at all. I would take that as a good thing but only giving bad votes is nothing but showing ill will and hate as far as I'm concerned (after experiencing it for months, no end). I most of the time don't even consider to vote on stuff I regard as being much worse then 5. It's simply not what I'm here to do. If it's not my bag I'm moving on and don't bother with it any more.

(BTW, Wen, take a look in the older discussions, you might have a blast if you have an inclination for soup-drama intrigues and such. You may need a certain twisted humour that I posses to some degree to fully appreciate it I guess... ^_^)

BTW, I get a lot of totally wonderful comments on my work and I'm really thankful for those that take their time to give me a few pointers or simply say they enjoyed looking at it. I'm sorry for my position of not being able to answer back or even talk to some of the great friends I've found here on caedes lately. I'll get more time on my hands eventually but until then I'll just have to say a collective "Thank you all!" for now.
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::WENPEDER
06/27/05 12:12 AM GMT
I can't bring myself to waste my time on petty politics here, Klas, but thanks for the heads up. There are too many great and talented folks here for me to waste much time on those who are making trouble. When I first signed on here in March, I simply didn't realize how much the rating system meant to people. I found this site kinda by accident while looking for some screensavers/wallpapers. As I participated more, I saw the "community" here and began to upload images and comment and vote. It would be nice, IMO, if people were simply required to vote in order to download images. That way, a larger cross section of viewers would be included in ratings.
Wen
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kjh000
06/27/05 5:48 AM GMT
I agree with you. That's the best way to deal with it. I was just kidding a bit. ;)

[Edit: And I don't care that much. But imagine how you would feel after more then half a year of consistently bad voting on account of just being you...

I think I'm one of the artists that don't delete my stuff simply because it's not voted to the sky. Mainly because I don't believe in the system of c-index but also because I only submit stuff I really like myself.

(I rarely upload stuff that are simple "snapshots", I work hard for every image choosing from maybe up to between 50 to 100 shots from a photo-session and always making proper color and contrast adjustments (and the occasional touch of healing brush). I'm putting a lot of pride in making my best effort to share work that is as good as I can make them.

It's enough for me after the circumstances that only a few enjoy an image for it to be good enough to stay here. You can't please everyone, right?)]
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Si
06/27/05 7:23 PM GMT
I've noticed this low voting as well, Matthew. If you get half-a-dozen "good" votes, a single vote of 2 can make a difference of 10 to your rating, and while the score isn't that important it's nice to know how the majority or people rate an image without having it slanted by a small minority who seem to enjoy spoiling it for other people.

In my own case, the low votes started when I posted some constructive criticism - whenever I've seen a low vote come in (and I've watched since I noticed this) the individual I criticised has always been shown as online. Votes of 2 have been most common, but there've been a few 1's and even 0's on pictures which have been getting votes of 8 to 10 from other people.

I think my preferred solution (other than barring said individual) would be to cancel out the lowest and highest votes on each image. If you had, say, a 10, a couple of 9's, three 8's and a 2, then without cancelling, your rating would be 77 instead of the 86 it would have been without that 2. By cancelling the 2 and the 10 the rating is 84 - much more indicative of the majority view.

I'd be interested to know what anybody else thinks of this suggestion. And interested to know whether you've criticised any images, Matthew, and earned somebody's antagonism the way I did....
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::CaptainHero
06/27/05 7:45 PM GMT
Yes. I've offered constructive criticism on some images. There are some candidates I can think of whose egos I have probably punctured. Of course it may all be coincidence. Maybe some people genuinely are voting 4/10 whilst others are giving 10/10 - difficult to say.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
MiLo_Anderson
06/27/05 7:59 PM GMT
In response to your idea for the rating, i don't think it would be a very good idea. If that was the case getting a 10 wouldn't matter. It would be better to recieve a 9 then a 10. That doesn't make much sence i don't think. I think a shorter rating scale like 1-5 might be better so there isn't so many numbers to chose from because it is hard to tell the differnce between a 8 and a 9.
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"A piece of toast with butter always lands butter side down, and a cat always lands on its feet. What happens if a piece of toast is tied butter side down to the back of a cat? Does it perpetually hover above the ground in indecision when dropped?"
::CaptainHero
06/27/05 8:45 PM GMT
Well, apparently the voting system is all changing anyway. I don't think a 1-5 scale would stop people voting low though.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
MiLo_Anderson
06/27/05 8:49 PM GMT
i don't think it would stop it either. I just think it would make it so there wasn't such a range between a high and a low vote, making it easier to give a fair vote. But you are right it is all changing so it doesn't really matter.
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"A piece of toast with butter always lands butter side down, and a cat always lands on its feet. What happens if a piece of toast is tied butter side down to the back of a cat? Does it perpetually hover above the ground in indecision when dropped?"
::regmar
07/10/05 2:40 AM GMT
Yup. I just uploaded an image and the first vote was - a 2! A 2. Now that the image has been there a few hours the raw score is a 70. I think two things are happening. I think that some people are revenge voting for what they see as unpleasantries in their comments - sorry if you can't take criticism don't put your work in a public forum - and the second thing is people think an image deserves a lower score than everyone else does - so they vote lower than they think the image deserves. Thus a photo they think deserves a 6, but which has an 8 they will give a 4 to in order to pull the c-index down. I think these people have to realize that they are being dishonest by their voting. The c-index is supposed to be a reflection of what everyone thinks, not just what one person thinks.
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ж Regmar ж
::CaptainHero
07/10/05 9:07 AM GMT
Yes, one should always vote honestly and not try to manipulate the overall score.

Sometimes it is almost an unconscious thing - I think people for example vote higher for members they like or know well. Really members should vote purely on the image quality, not how much they like the person. Sorry to see that you got a 2 - I mean there is no way your images deserve 2's.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
Si
07/10/05 9:41 AM GMT
If the 2 was the first vote it sounds like your first explanation may be right in this case, Regmar: revenge voting rather than manipulation. I wonder if you criticised the same person I did. If so, get used to the 2's - s/he seems to have a very long memory....
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::dreamer100
07/10/05 10:51 AM GMT
Is this still going on?! Frankly I don't have time or the connection speed for thumbnails I think are 2s. Mine range between 5 and 8 with an occasional 9 and a rare 10. Do low voters even bother to download the image Regmar? Somehow the voting system needs to be changed with maybe the average vote from each user posted on their profile page or something. If someone has a habit of just dealing out abuse of the system then their average vote record would be very low.
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::regmar
07/10/05 12:34 AM GMT
Thanks for the comments ya'll. I think Kilie has a good point. Most people don't waste time on images they think are 2's so whoever gives these low scores must be angry. Sadly I can't think of a way to change the voting system to compensate for these people and their attempts to poison this well to which we all go for strength. Some time back I suggested a histogram of votes for an image, so we could see any wild stray votes, but I imagine Caedes has more important things on his mind than changing the c-index system.

Now I will offer an apology to whomever I offended. Please understand that I come to Caedes to get ideas about how to improve my work and to help others improve theirs. I assume others come here for the same reason. I know for a fact that I have never intentionally insulted someone or their work, so if it appears that I have done so to you, please accept my apology, my promise that it was unintentional and any criticism was given to help not hurt, and my promise to always write comments that I would not mind seeing under one of my own photos.

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ж Regmar ж
bjb
07/10/05 1:05 PM GMT
Keep in mind Regmar that you may not have offended a soul. I've certainly not seen your comments anywhere near what I would consider offending in nature. Sometimes this happens because someone is bound and determined to promote their own images to the top of the numbers by knocking down others regardless of image quality. In fact, that low vote may actually be a compliment (though childishly given) that your photo is good enough that someone else feels threatened rather than offended. Competition sure brings out the best in folks sometimes, huh? ;(
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When you get the choice to sit it out or dance, I hope you dance... Leanne Womack
::Morwyn
07/10/05 1:07 PM GMT
There seems to be an awful lot of low voting lately.. I don't post for the numbers either, but to watch your rating drop by five points in one vote is not fun.. I work very hard on my images, and give a lot of thought to what I upload.. I do believe there has to be some kind of revenge voting going on..
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+tbob
07/10/05 2:45 PM GMT
I think even if a little "revenge" voting happens you wont keep a good image down.Over time I would think it will rebound back to its true rating or atleast that's my opinion.
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kjh000
07/10/05 2:53 PM GMT
Definitely. I'm less and less inclined to come here at all because of the poison in the well... (Besides my constant lack of time.) I think this should have stopped a long time ago. As far as I'm concerned I consider this to be indirectly sanctioned from the top as long as it's not dealt with in a straightforward way. This kind of behaviour is mentioned as an offence in the Rule of Conduct but is not followed up on. In the long run you get to keep what you allow. I'm not sticking around much when this is allowed to be a constant factor in this community. :/ This is the work of a sociopath IMHO... To think that keeping this under the lid will make the storm blow over is not the way to deal with things.

/Klas
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MiLo_Anderson
07/10/05 4:50 PM GMT
One thing that may help get more honest votes, and maybe even more votes, is to make the rating/c-index hidden untill someone has voted on it. What other people have voted in the past could have a strong impact on what you think an image is worth.
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"A piece of toast with butter always lands butter side down, and a cat always lands on its feet. What happens if a piece of toast is tied butter side down to the back of falling cat? Does it hover above the ground in perpetual indecision?"
MorpheusZero
07/10/05 5:04 PM GMT
Yes that is a VERY good idea, Milo.
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::CaptainHero
07/10/05 5:38 PM GMT
Nice idea, MiLo.

At least the system has been changed so that votes are now recorded against users ID's. That means in theory at least you could spot someone who persistently voted low on another user's images. In practice I don't know how this would work.

I agree with tbob to a limited extent about 'you can't keep a good image down'. However, I don't think that that point of view takes account of the low number of votes on many images. My images often don't get many votes so one very low vote can affect the overall score if there are only 4 or 5 votes on there.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
::regmar
07/10/05 7:13 PM GMT
You know, I thought of that too, but what I realized is that the c-index is used for a lot of things. This site is here to provide free allpaper to folks, so the c-index exists to let the downloaders sort the images by popularity. It's not there to help us, the "artists" so much as the customers.
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ж Regmar ж
dokein
07/10/05 9:39 PM GMT
This is kind of sad--for me I really like constructive criticism, in fact I ask for it many times specifically in my picture comment. It is sad that some people who cannot take constructive criticism will try to ... lower an artist's "score", and for this reason I think I am more hesitant to give other people criticism. I know that usually I don't bother to click on ones I don't like. Maybe we can start a list of people who are known to give good comments and who can take constructive criticism and who can vote fairly. This way I know who's pictures I can look forward to commenting on (usually a praise, but maybe a suggestion as well)--and the additional views comments and votes will be an incentive for others to shape up.
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dokein
07/10/05 9:45 PM GMT
Also, if a person doesn't like a picture because of personal preferences, they shouldn't give the person a low score. For example, a person who's looking for a sunny day happy picture, that sees a sad tragic dark picture that is well done, should not go ahead and give the person a really low score, because there is equal beauty in many different aspects.
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::regmar
07/10/05 10:42 PM GMT
Please criticize my pictures!

This is why I post them! Recently one of my friends looked at one of my photos and he told me about an architectural maxim that describes the use of light and dark. He said of my photo that although the diagonal between dark and light wasn't exactly in the center that the image still worked because the light that came in through a window balanced out the darkness. Hmm. I have used that advice as well as other suggestions I've received here at Caedes to improve my work and make me a better photographer.

I have a long way to go. I want to learn about ideas that are new to me. I will never "vote down" an image below what I honestly think the image is worth, so please put me on the list of people who can take criticism. I want criticism.

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ж Regmar ж
kjh000
07/11/05 9:33 AM GMT
I'm a given on that list too... If it ever is implemented in some form, from anyone... This is one of my big crusades on caedes.net I guess. Without free speech and exchange of thoughts much of the big fun and for that matter, much of the point at large as I see it, is lost...

The behaviour discussed above is nothing less then a big threat to the creative environment here. But if you are afraid to criticise then this culprit has won on the other hand. I wouldn't like to see that happen. S/he (lol!!! (rather internal joke I guess)) should be the one cutting down on the bad habits instead of we giving up good ones!!!
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andrew11230
07/13/05 1:02 AM GMT
I've had this problem, one of my images, "The Halos, had 5, "10" votes! I was suprised because the votes were too generous and it gave me a C-Index of 100 since the rating is the C-Index now and someone gave me a low low vote, the image was worth a 10 but definitely wasn't worth a 0 either. And then the rating went to 40 and kept on declining so I just removed it. Something should be done to stop this.
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DixieNormus
07/16/05 9:23 PM GMT
This sux!!!! I have a new image called "12 Million Years"......It was doing tremendously well. It had 4 votes, and a rating of 96! Today when the c-index updated...it listed me as a 96 c-index!! NOW.....30 minutes after it achieved a 96 c-index rating.....I've had 3 more votes that lowered my rating to 82!!! This is total, and complete BS, and the persons responsible are obviously jeolous, and decided to destroy my c-index rating. =0) Now when the c-index updates next time....it will show as around 82....so I hope you are happy you piece of crap!!
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~Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday~
kjh000
07/16/05 9:48 PM GMT
I have very little images with c-index left over 90... But I don't blame this on only revenge-voting and such I guess. I guess most of my stuff is a bit off. ^_^ Anyhow... I've gotten used to it but I'm quite frankly sad that is has never been dealt with in a straight-forward matter.
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kjh000
07/16/05 9:53 PM GMT
(And 82 is still good by my standards... ^_^)
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DixieNormus
07/16/05 9:56 PM GMT
Yes....I agree that 82 is still good, but from 96 to 82 because of 3 votes within 1/2 hour? Get my point?
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~Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday~
kjh000
07/16/05 9:58 PM GMT
I'm on your side of the fence. ;) No worries.

I'm sorry to hear about what happened.
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::WENPEDER
07/16/05 10:23 PM GMT
I think MiLo's idea is a winner. Only the author should be able to see the C-Index until after they have voted. That's how it's done with on-line polls/surveys. You vote and THEN you are informed what the numbers are. That way, the votes of others will not influence how someone votes.
Wen
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DixieNormus
07/16/05 10:26 PM GMT
Yes....wonderful idea! I'm behind it 100%.
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~Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday~
MorpheusZero
07/16/05 10:45 PM GMT
Does anyone have any idea when the site will change?
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*caedes
07/17/05 1:59 AM GMT
Dixie: In that situation, you would have received an average of ~6.3 for the other three votes which you think are abusive. I don't know about you, but if I was wanting to hurt someone's score, I'd vote a lot lower than 6. I think that many times people attribute to malice what is actually just opinion. Of course it is easier to think that someone just hates you than it is to accept that maybe they just don't like your work. Perhapse now you can see why it isn't just a simple matter of running a quick search on the voting database and kicking out everyone with 'bad' votes. 'Bad' is very difficult to define in this case, primarily due to the fact that we allow people to choose which images they vote on (thus thwarting many statistical methods that I could use).

This is why I'm planning on having the new voting system chose which image each person gets to vote one. There are MANY advantages to such a system. In fact almost every problem that people have pointed out with the current system is automatically fixed with the new voting method.

Updates to the site, however will not happen over night since I am currently finishing my thesis. Hopefully in a few months I'll be gleefully unemployed and able to work on the coding of the site much more.
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-caedes
MiLo_Anderson
07/17/05 2:06 AM GMT
I'm looking forward to seeing how you are going to go about doing that. I know that personally i only ever vote on photographs because if i were to vote on computer generated stuff it would all be super low because i can't apreciate a computer drawing of something i would rather have seen as a photograph. But that said im sure you have this well thought out so i doubt it will be a problem.
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"A piece of toast with butter always lands butter side down, and a cat always lands on its feet. What happens if a piece of toast is tied butter side down to the back of falling cat? Does it hover above the ground in perpetual indecision?"
*caedes
07/17/05 2:17 AM GMT
It picks images based mainly on what you have previously uploaded.
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-caedes
DixieNormus
07/17/05 2:17 AM GMT
Thank you Caedes for clearing that up. It's not that I felt that particular image was worthy of a 96 c-index. Actually I was quite surprised that it was doing as well as it was. My gripe was that after being posted on the site for a day and a half....."12 Million Years" had received 4 votes, and was rated 96. Within a half hour of the c-index update....my image received another 3 consecutive votes within a 1/2 hour. (After going half the day without a vote), and my actual rated score dropped dramatically. Now call it a coincidence if you wish. It's all good!.....I'll suck it up, and continue with my day. Sorry about the rant. =0)
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~Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday~
*caedes
07/17/05 2:31 AM GMT
You probably got a bunch of votes at one time because your image was featured for a short time on the front page as a featured image.
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-caedes
DixieNormus
07/17/05 2:37 AM GMT
You could be right Caedes....I was just blowing off steam at everyone elses expense, and for this I am sorry. It's not the first time this had happened, and I lost my cool. I'll behave now. =0)
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~Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday~
MiLo_Anderson
07/17/05 3:59 AM GMT
i was right, you had covered all the bases. That sounds like it could work quite well.
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"A piece of toast with butter always lands butter side down, and a cat always lands on its feet. What happens if a piece of toast is tied butter side down to the back of falling cat? Does it hover above the ground in perpetual indecision?"
trisweb
07/17/05 6:03 AM GMT
Love MiLo's idea -- I think it'll bring a huge increase in votes because people like to see how images are rated.


Personally though, I sort of like seeing the c-index. If an image is crap, and it's getting too high a rating, then I make sure to give it more than what it deserves. No offense to anyone; I expect the same for my bad images. :)
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::mia04
07/17/05 2:02 PM GMT
Caedes: That new voting system sounds good - I'm looking forward to it! In the meantime, good luck with your thesis!
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For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, plausible, and wrong. - H. L. Mencken
*caedes
07/17/05 11:43 PM GMT
In the future, we won't need to hide the c-index in order to get the same benifit. When you are asked to vote on an image, you only get to see the image's thumbnail and fullsize version. You don't know the image's author or even the filename of the image.

The reason that we can't hide the c-index now is that it would prevent us from being able to sort the galleries by c-index (or rating).
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-caedes
MiLo_Anderson
07/18/05 4:58 AM GMT
You could have arrange them by c-index with out letting people see what it acctually is i think. People would have a general idea what is high and low if they were to sort by index, but they wouldn't know exactly or know at all if they are viewing by date. Of couse i could be wrong since i haven't coded the site, but yes.
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"A piece of toast with butter always lands butter side down, and a cat always lands on its feet. What happens if a piece of toast is tied butter side down to the back of falling cat? Does it hover above the ground in perpetual indecision?"
MorpheusZero
07/18/05 4:59 PM GMT
Another great idea, Milo. I think that would make things much better, if it were reasonable to program without rewriting the site's code completely
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::CaptainHero
07/18/05 7:13 PM GMT
I like the idea of voting on an image without seeing the author - that will be great. I'm curious as to the mechanics of it though. I'm presuming you wouldn't be able to comment on the image until afterwards, thus divorcing comments from votes even further.

You also wouldn't be able to choose an image to vote on? Say for example you visit someone's gallery and think 'that's a nice piece of work'. Because in that scenario you would obviously know already whose work it was.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
::WENPEDER
07/18/05 8:27 PM GMT
I'm curious about how that would work too, Matthew. Would require something of an overhaul of the entire site, I would think. For what it's worth, I like seeing the author's comments when I look at images. It seems a bit depersonalized to separate the image from the person who made it. That's my opinion, anyway....<G>
Wen
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*caedes
07/18/05 8:55 PM GMT
Don't worry, it's nothing like that.
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-caedes
::WENPEDER
07/18/05 8:58 PM GMT
Glad to hear it, Caedes....I should know better given how well designed this site is at present. I trust you'll keep the Caedes "community" in tact. <G>
Wen
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::CaptainHero
07/19/05 7:51 PM GMT
Oh, OK
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
DixieNormus
07/20/05 9:16 PM GMT
Heh....they did it to me again on "Blacklight". Time to move along perhaps.
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~Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday~
::CaptainHero
07/20/05 9:43 PM GMT
Hate to disagree, Randy, but having looked at the images in question they have perfectly good c-indexes. The phenomenon I was referring to at the beginning of the discussion involves radical drops in scores - usually where there have been one or two really good votes and suddenly a very low one.

If you think people are voting 'low' on your images (and frankly your scores look good) then it is probably because they don't like them much, not because they are trying to get at you. From what I can recall, the comments on your images are positive ones. I wouldn't worry just because not every single voter gives you a 9 or 10.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
DixieNormus
07/20/05 10:18 PM GMT
Is that a fact!? Well then perhaps you can explain the phenomenon of why the low voters never....ever ....comment on my pictures? I'll have a great rating, leave for the day....come back, and my rating is 10 points lower....but guess what....no additional comments. I get what your saying about the decent c-index.....i just don't get why people have to hit, and run....never leaving a comment as to what they disliked about my work. I want to create high quality art, and a little criticism is worth a billion votes.
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~Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday~
+mayne
07/20/05 11:05 PM GMT
Perhaps they vote and run because of time restraints or they see that a similar opinion of the image has been posted by another member?
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Darryl
DixieNormus
07/20/05 11:19 PM GMT
Oh...okay...only the low voters have time restraints.
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~Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday~
::vamoura
07/20/05 11:44 PM GMT
I have another suggestion, why not drop that voting thing all at once? Just let the downloads and viewing decide , anyway the C-index does not have much to say about the fact an image stays or gets deleted, so why should the voting be so important and part in that decision anyway???At the end its the mods and/or the system that decides what gets permanent and what doesn't!
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MorpheusZero
07/21/05 1:08 AM GMT
I never really thought of that. Good idea, Vamoura. I mean, really, must every thing be labeled with a number? Does a number really mean anything compared to a comment or constructive criticisms? Quite frankly, I think that people pay too much attention too the c-index and rating of their images. This is unfortunate as well becuase there also people out there who feel they need to put down others to boost their rating in comparison. No matter what changes are made to the voting system, there will still be unfairly low votes. The only foolproof way to stop this is to get rid of the voting all together. In turn, this would let people pay more attention to the comments instead of a mere number. I'm with Vamoura on this one.
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MiLo_Anderson
07/21/05 3:24 AM GMT
I'm just going to throw out there that i don't like the idea of getting rid of voting:P. It is a good quick way to see what people think about a shot. A comment that says nice shot could be given to something that is average and something that is phenomenal. Thats my 2 cents.
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"A piece of toast with butter always lands butter side down, and a cat always lands on its feet. What happens if a piece of toast is tied butter side down to the back of falling cat? Does it hover above the ground in perpetual indecision?"
kjh000
07/21/05 7:31 AM GMT
Voting per se is not that bad... Not that important either. (And a drop of 10 in c-index isn't that extreme, try out 30 or 40 (and more) if you want to know how I have it at times... ^_^) My angle on the revenge voting is that the votes should be public. I've said this a number of times in similar discussions in the past and I'm quite sure none of what I say will be taken into account this time too. :P

I understand partly that some might think it's a right to vote secretly. I just feel that you should be able to show publicly what you stand for and not be ashamed of that. Instead of the wretched comment 10/10 you would see what people really voted... If they do. (Definitely not happening all of the time...) Instead of keeping the identity of the author secret you could keep the votes open to be viewed by everyone. That's just for people with spine maybe. :D Sorry. Bad taste to say maybe, but that's how I feel after this wonderful year of silent persecution (that has now luckily stopped at large) with trashed c-indexes...
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DixieNormus
07/21/05 9:17 AM GMT
What MorpheusZero said is exactly what I was trying to say. I'd rather have a little honest criticism than a vote any day. What ever happened to the idea of having to comment in order to vote?
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~Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday~
::CaptainHero
07/21/05 6:13 PM GMT
Yes, it's certainly an intriguing idea to get rid of the voting completely and just have comments.

With regard to low voters not leaving comments, there may be reasons for it other than subterfuge (though anonymous voting is of course the perfect cover for a vindictive voter). For example, I suspect that I often vote lower on average than others because I am quite a critical person. I don't leave comments every time because I don't have the time. Also, I sometimes feel awkward when I see an image that i think is pretty average and the comments on there are raving on about it and saying '10/10'. In the past I have left constructive criticism and had some less-than-civil 'feedback' from the persons in question. I think people are always much more likely to leave positive feedback. If they don't like an image as much, they are less likely to comment. It is unfortunate of course, since an honest appraisal of a piece of work can be really helpful to the author (hence various other discussions on constructive feedback, etc).

Anyway, I seem to be rambling. I'm trying to say that for as long as I can remember people are far more likely to leave 'nice' rather than constructive comments. It seems to be the status quo and I am as guilty as anyone for lacking sufficient courage on some occasions to post a critical remark, however well phrased it may be.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
DixieNormus
07/22/05 12:36 AM GMT
Well put Captain. Still...wouldn't you be a bit more inclined to be a critic if you knew the author couldn't down-vote your work because of a little honest critisism? Under the current system....criticising an image for an author's own good inevitably will do you NO good. In that aspect you are correct, and that's why this system doesn't work. I say the simplest, and perhaps the best solution, and this has been mentioned before, is to have a system where the only way you can vote on an image is to first comment on an image.
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~Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday~
MiLo_Anderson
07/22/05 5:27 AM GMT
In regard to not having anonymous voting i would say that would open up the can of worms even more. Just think, if you think people are using votes to get back at comments that don't do anything other then maybe hurt inside, just think what people would do if they could see that john doe gave them a 5 on their image because that is what it deserves. (remember 5 is average, which brings up a whole nother issue that images are to high anyways, considering i bet an average c-index is much higher then 5, but lets not go there).
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"A piece of toast with butter always lands butter side down, and a cat always lands on its feet. What happens if a piece of toast is tied butter side down to the back of falling cat? Does it hover above the ground in perpetual indecision?"
DixieNormus
07/22/05 5:31 AM GMT
Thats the point. If you feel that an image sucks....why not say so?....or are you afraid of retaliation? That's exactly why the current system doesn't work.
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~Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday~
MiLo_Anderson
07/22/05 5:48 AM GMT
I'm not really following your comment there. I am saying that it would be worse then it already is if people get to see who voted. That has nothing to do with saying why i think an image sucks. It is just saying why implimenting a system of non anonumous voting wouldn't work. Some people would stop voting altogether unless they liked an image which in turn would inflate c-indexs of images.

I agree with you that people shouldn't be afraid to say what they think. I very rarly ever just say a comment unless it has something constructive in it and im not afraid of retaliation because i'm not so positive it accutally happens as much as people in this thread think.
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"A piece of toast with butter always lands butter side down, and a cat always lands on its feet. What happens if a piece of toast is tied butter side down to the back of falling cat? Does it hover above the ground in perpetual indecision?"
kjh000
07/22/05 7:05 AM GMT
Hehe... Ok, I give up. It's better to hide the author from the viewer and voting secretly then to be upfront and honest about our point of views.

(I would not have a problem with someone giving me votes of 5 on a piece I do. It's not at all the same thing as voting between 2 to 0 consistently on all of my stuff... It would have been a relief for me to know that I was not the only one knowing of *some* of our high profile members bad behaviour.

The way it works now they can reign with their silent revenge as weapon. I want these kind of people exposed and dealt with. I understand it's not what others want here. The rather poor environment for constructive criticism we have now is as I see it (and as pointed out earlier in this discussion) a direct result of this kind of bad behaviour. It has destroyed the sense of community I once felt here on caedes. Now it's just mostly patting of backs and backing of allies.)
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::CaptainHero
07/22/05 8:49 AM GMT
In the past, I too argued for transparent voting. Now I'm not too sure. Like MiLo said, if everyone can see you voted 5 on an image that other people voted 9 on then that puts you in the same boat as the 'critical comment' situation.

It would be nice to think that people voted purely and objectively based on the worth of the image. The truth is they don't: they vote on a variety of criteria including whether they like the author or know them well. As I said above, I think that I tend to vote lower than most. I believe that is because I am realistic and critically-aware. Others might say that it is because I am nasty and spiteful (personally I don't think this is the case, but then I would say that!) I sometimes find myself voting 5 or 6 on an image that I believe to be average, or just-above-average. When I look at the comments, other people have indicated that they love the image and sometimes even say that they have given it a 10 (though I notice that people usually don't publicise the fact if they vote below 10...)

Sadly we have now developed a situation on this site where most members vote very highly on images that are little better than average and have required very little technical skill or artistic endeavour to create. Little cliques of people spring up (probably not even deliberately in most cases) and they coo over each others images and most peoples' c-indexes are inflated. Well, that's nice and fluffy and cute, but I'm not sure it's moving the community forward. In all probability it is not helping artists develop their skills and advance their creativity either.

It's ironic, since I started the discussion talking about low voting, but in fact I would say that voting on this site is way too high. I would like to say for the record that I'm not giving my opinion from a position of superiority - it's not like I think my own images are so great that I can criticise everyone elses position. I just wish we had a culture whereby everyone voted realistically and commented critically without fear of any comeback (whether deliberate or not). When I say 'critically' I mean that in the true sense of the word (most people think critical=negative).
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
kjh000
07/22/05 10:25 AM GMT
I agree with what you say. I'm not voting that low in general and guess I'm a part of that problem. I just rather put it into words if I have criticism to offer.
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DixieNormus
07/22/05 12:22 AM GMT
Thats right! What good is it doing the artist to receive an average vote? Wouldn't it be best, as kjh000 has stated, to comment on what it is that makes their image average....and tell them what they could do to make their image more appealing? Hit, and run voting doesn't do the artist any good whatsoever. Sure....I know they'll get the point when their image ends up with an average rating that perhaps its just an average image, but did your vote help them to improve? Are they going to create a more desirable image not knowing why their image was so undesirable? Sure.....you are willing to hand out an average vote, but you are not willing to help out the artist. Why? You don't want them to see who dealt them out the 5 vote! Do you see the problem here? All you are doing is dealing out average votes to the same authors over, and over...because you are to "afraid" they might know it was you who gave them the 5. Next time....do them a favor. Take the time to tell them why they deserve an average vote, and then maybe....just maybe....their next image might live up to your standards.
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~Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday~
::CaptainHero
07/22/05 12:46 AM GMT
Yes, it would be best to comment on images that you are voting lower on. In a sense, it would be better to comment on those images rather than the ones that you rate highly - after all, if someones just been handed a '10' vote they know that the image is good. However, the problem is that many people can't deal with that type of criticism - if anything we have created a culture on this site whereby that is frowned upon. On various discussion boards, some artists have said that they don't think we should leave critical feedback. I've had negative comeback a few times when I've left what I thought was a genuinely helpful comment on someone's work. Sorry, if I'm a coward, but I now think twice before leaving critical comments.

Your polemical rant above is very compelling, Randy, but I think the situation is more complex than you allow for. I take your point about artists not knowing how to improve if no comment is left, and I agree in principle. As for not seeing who dealt them a 5 vote, that vote will have little impact if everyone is giving 9 or 10 for that image.

I'm going to have to think about this... I'm not sure what the answer is - should I really throw caution to the winds and leaving totally honest critique on those images I think could be improved? I'm certainly not the only one in this dilemma - from other discussions I know that other members are in the same boat.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
DixieNormus
07/22/05 12:53 AM GMT
Agreed Matthew. I seriously think that doing away with the voting all together might be the only real solution here. One things for sure...the current system sucks, and If I could vote on it...I'd give it a 2 at best! Once again....sorry about the rant. =0)
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~Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday~
::CaptainHero
07/22/05 1:38 PM GMT
Hey, that's cool. It's good we can debate like this.

Maybe we should do away with voting. I will give serious thought to the points you raised.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
::regmar
07/22/05 2:34 PM GMT
It's curious. I don't feel that I have much talent, so I tend to feel the same as those who think the c-indices here on Caedes are over-inflated, but since I began following this thread, I have begun to look at the c-indices that others have received, thinking that perhaps I have been victimized without noticing it. I have come to several conclusions:


1) Graphic images tend to get rated a lot higher than photographs. Now I am a photographer, so I may be biased, but I am aware that there are other photographers on this website whose work is quite professional who wind up with 86's while fractal images often get 92's and above. This is quite uncommon among photos.
2) Most "ordinary" images are ignored and age off this site without comment. Most images that get c-indices are good enough to get sufficient attention in the flood of images to allow them to receive five votes. The images that receive c-index of seven or more are good enough to be considered "art" even if not great art. They aren't just average snapshots.
3) What is referred to in this thread as back-patting is really just the good manners of those kindly teachers who realize that criticism is best accepted when it's offered with praise.


Now I too feel sometimes that I'd prefer to get more detailed explanations of why someone likes or dislikes my work, but I'm really just happy that they do like it. This is all so new to me that I'm a little overwhelmed by the acceptance I've received here, and I like it. I'm not sure I want to see Caedes fix problems that stem from the warped personalities of some users. Perhaps if we all just ignore them they will go away to a place where others of their kind lurk.

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ж Regmar ж
noobguy
07/22/05 3:01 PM GMT
I vote but rarely comment, I dont have as much time to spend on caedes as I used to..sorry. I'm sure others do the same. I like milos idea of hiding c-index before vote. I enjoy caedes idea of just showing a group of images for voting even better. I am curious to know if in caedes system, after you vote on this image, will the author..etc be revealed to you? Or will the image just be posted on the site for everyone to see after it has gotten a certain amount of votes. Perhaps there was a discussion on this new system that I have missed out on, if anyone has a link that would be appreciated.
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"Then as it was, Then again it will be. An' though the course may change sometimes, Rivers always reach the sea."
::CaptainHero
07/22/05 3:07 PM GMT
I don't know, Regmar. Some CG images get rated highly - especially the 'eye-candy' ones that are in many cases relatively easy to produce, but don't don't get me started on that.....

However, I feel that photos often get rated very highly - just take a look at page 1 of the author list. By my reckoning, I count 9 artists out of 12 who are either 'pure' photographers or who derive much of their work from photography. Out of the top 6, five are photographers - only Nathan has managed to shoulder his way in there by virtue of his excellent CG images.

I disagree with your other points - many ordinary images prosper on this site. Also, the fluffy bunny comments I don't regard as simply good manners. They are no doubt well-intended, but what is their use if not tempered with constructive suggestions? I think this is the point that Randy was trying to get at. Those that post them, in my experience, are not necessarily the 'kindly teachers' you refer to, but in some cases people who are lower down the food chain. I'm not dismissing anyone here, but I think there's a debate to be had.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
::regmar
07/22/05 6:46 PM GMT
I looked at the top images and artists, and I can concede that there is a fair distribution of photos and CG works, but I still disagree with your "fluffy bunny" idea. I get a fair amount of criticism on my works, and though I do get a lot of "Great Job" comments, it's OK. Not everyone feels that they have something to contribute to every image they examine. In fact if one takes the time to look at all the New Images (and hold down a job) there's virtually no way to give constructive criticism about every image. If one only comments on the "good" images, then by necessity the less experienced artists will disappear from wont of attention.

That's not what Caedes is about. This is a site for people to learn, and part of learning is praise. I get criticism from almost everyone who comments on my images. That's not to say that every comment is critical, but most everyone who comments on my images eventually leaves constructive advice. I like that, and I don't want that to change. Also I'm really not qualified to judge who's "lower down the food chain" as you put it. It might be me for all I know.

Now this part isn't directed at any one person, but I'm hearing a lot of anger and spite on this thread . This is very un-caedes of us, and I think that it goes against what I like to see - us demanding that the person(s) who give us this delightful sandbox fix with technology the problems we are having with each other.

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ж Regmar ж
::CaptainHero
07/22/05 7:03 PM GMT
Yes, the large number of images submitted is certainly a factor in not being able to comment on everything. I also agree that it is difficult to comment meaningfully on every image you view in any case.

With regard to my other comment, well, I was being judgemental and more than a little facetious. What I meant is that many (but not all) of the glowing comments I see come from artists that I personally think are not perhaps that critically aware of their own work. Sometimes also it is people that don't do any work in that field (for example they might be saying 'wow' about a pretty basic 3D image, but they don't create any 3D images). Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course. As I already said above, it's not that my work is so great that I can sit there and condemn others. However, if it were the case that you had to be brilliant to have an opinion on a piece then few of us could post comments.

It's difficult to put my finger on. I guess I just feel uneasy at some of what I personally perceive as unnecessarily glowing comments on pieces that by any objective yardstick are not that great. Of course we must encourage people (especially beginners) but we need to do so realistically and not lead them astray.

From other discussions it is apparent that some members think we should be critical of images (in the positive sense of the word) and others think that we should tiptoe around peoples' egos. It is a tough dilemma. Perhaps we need to have an option on our profile that shows on every image we post and says 'please criticise honestly' or not - as per the recent post on that topic.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
+TRACYJTZ
07/22/05 7:41 PM GMT
There are other web sites that do just that - "an option on our profile that shows on every image we post and says 'please criticise honestly' or not". It's a good idea. Some like criticism and some obviously, do not. I do. So, even negative comments (which, I have received many) do not phase me. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The voting/c-index...I could care less about. I stopped caring about numbers long ago. I no longer make images to please the masses....I do them to please myself and if people dont like them...I'm cool with that. I just like to share them with those who do happen to like them. In regards to the "good job" comments....some people are just nice like that and it should not be looked at in a negative way. Those should be appreciated as well. Someone took the time to say that they appreciate what you have done. And for the beginners...these kind of comments can be a good thing. Encouragement is good in any form. And, if the constructive critisisms are mixed in...even better. If it had not been for the "good job" type comments in the beginning....I may have never continued to post images. But, because of these - I did continue and found ways to improve and continued to learn. Maybe the comments werent...realistic....and maybe they did lead me astray. Who cares. Those that are serious in their creations will improve and will stick around. Those images that maybe are not so good...well, that's why they dont stick around. And, in a sense...there is your critisism. Tells people that they need to improve. This is, by far, the best web site that I know of...which, is why I've stuck around for so long. The set up that caedes has...almost answers all of these issues in my opinion.
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::regmar
07/22/05 7:50 PM GMT
Yup. I agree that I get annoyed when I haer about people stroking each other (and no one else). I wasn't aware that this was happening until a month ago or so. That was when I started reading these discussion boards. Maybe I'd be less paranoid if I stopped reading them.
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ж Regmar ж
::CaptainHero
07/22/05 9:07 PM GMT
Wish I was as robust as you, Tracy!

You're right: when all is said and done, this is still a good site.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
::Quiet
07/29/05 1:04 AM GMT
I think voter names should be kept hidden except to *caedes and maybe the image mods. But even then, instead of showing them who voted low on X picture, just gather stats and look for user names that dole out disproportionately high amounts of high or low scores. It won't stop all abuse, but it's a start. Hm, then again there's a few users that I always vote really high for though because everything they create AMAZES ME, so maybe they only need to track disproportionately low voters :-))

Maybe they can make leaving the user name optional when voting! :-)
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~"In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths" (Prov. 3:6).~
::Quiet
07/29/05 1:18 AM GMT
Oops i just read higher up that votes stats are kept against userids to check for disproportionate low voting. Good then.
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~"In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths" (Prov. 3:6).~
scionlord
07/29/05 11:00 AM GMT
I don't care what rating people vote on my images, just as long as they vote.
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'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius ................. Please vote on these: The Cage 2, Strange Dreams 2, Orb 3, Glowball Stylised
::CaptainHero
08/14/05 10:33 AM GMT
I may regret resurrecting this, but I thought I would put an addendum on.

I recently posted an image, Tiger Stripes.

I checked my Caedes Control a little while afterwards and found I had 1 vote and no comments. My raw score was 100, so someone had generously given me a 10. Some time later I had 3 votes and 2 comments (though it doesn't necessarily mean that those two people were the ones who had voted). My raw score was now 60. Given that I already know that the first vote was a 10, this means that the next two votes were an average of 4/10 each. This seems a little harsh. Now intrigued, I checked again a little later. I now had 4 votes and one further comment (though again, I cannot assume that the comments and votes necessarily correlate). My raw vote was now 45, meaning that the latest voter had given me 0/10.

Now, this seems a little odd to me. Clearly people are entitled to judge an image in any way they choose and I certainly can't assume that I will get high votes. However votes in the region of 4/10 and one of 0/10 seem very harsh. Is the image really that terrible?
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
PrettyFae
08/14/05 11:37 AM GMT
Hey Matthew!
That does seem a little odd to me, though I've noticecd that even if you get very few votes but every person who has looked has also downloaded, your c-index will still be extremely high...it seems that downloads are slightly more important, so even if three people had given you high marks but your percentage of views and downloads was very low, then the c-index would reflect these statistics more than the votes...

Though that's only based on my own experiences which probably isn't much help because I don't tend to have many problems with my c-indexes
Hope this helps a little :]
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::CaptainHero
08/14/05 1:26 PM GMT
Yeah, but the c-index is disabled at the moment. I'm talking about the raw voting score. Thanks for the input, though.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
MiLo_Anderson
08/14/05 6:19 PM GMT
i thought we already decided people were imature. Perhaps they like coming onto this thread and seeing how you react to low votes, knowing that you watch your rating very closely?
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"A piece of toast with butter always lands butter side down, and a cat always lands on its feet. What happens if a piece of toast is tied butter side down to the back of falling cat? Does it hover above the ground in perpetual indecision?"
::CaptainHero
08/14/05 7:27 PM GMT
Perhaps. I don't always watch my ratings closely, generally, but sometimes I take a look and then see strange trends happening.

As you say, by posting on this thread, I may be not helping. It's just frustrating, seeing it happen and not being able to do anything. Still, I have more important things in my life to be concerned about.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
::Radjehuty
08/15/05 10:42 PM GMT
yea it happens...giving people 0's for no reason..

But I think that what many people say is excelent and give 10's to, there's a few people who judge images with different criteria in mind and do vote lower based on what they think is right. I noticed many times myself that images where people are always saying they gave a 10/10 on an image that I believe is only worthy of a 6 at best. I won't give examples, but I just wanted to tell you that we should be mindful that not all low ratings are attacks--even if it's a huge contrast to the popular vote choice.

I do understand your frustration, and I think we all recieve it wether we notice it or not. Alot of my images that I thought were pretty cool turned out lower than I expected. Art is so subjective, it's hard to differentiate what's attack and what isn't..
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"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
::Radjehuty
08/15/05 10:42 PM GMT
oops..stupid modem making me post twice! >_<
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"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
::CaptainHero
08/15/05 10:53 PM GMT
You're right of course. But there is a difference between getting a 5 or 6 and getting a zero. I'm quite strict with my voting on images, but even I very rarely venture below 5.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
::Radjehuty
08/15/05 11:02 PM GMT
so how about we change the voting system on a scale of 5-10!! :)

or would that be...oh well :P
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"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
::Radjehuty
08/16/05 5:54 AM GMT
jk lol

But yea I would be concerned if say, you have an obvious average vote, and out fo the blue there's a 0. That's a pretty obvious indication lol
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"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
fergusp
08/18/05 12:04 AM GMT
I don't think there is any so called "vengeful voting", we all like different thins, a picture that sparks a particular emotion in one person may not for another, it's all down to personal taste. Keep up the good work with the images!
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"Never stop seeking what seems unobtainable..."

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