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Discussion Board -> Desktop Wallpaper, Art, etc. -> comments-- TOO nice?

comments-- TOO nice?

::reddawg151
02/10/04 5:30 AM GMT
lately i felt like a lot of comments have been too nice. hats off to everyone who takes time to look at images and comment, that is what makes this site so great. and also because the people are very nice, very cool.

but it's also about improving as artists and getting feedback. in the last few weeks there has been a lot of "good job, keep it up, one of my faves, 10/10" and nothing else. at the best there is a "nice colors" added in. but never any critique. even on images that truly aren't that good.

whether or not you think all these images ARE 10/10, even Michelangelo could benefit from critiques. maybe not him, lol... but you get my point. :-D
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+Samatar
02/10/04 5:48 AM GMT
But on the other hand you can offer criticism without being offensive as well; there are a few members who just come out and say exactly what they think, which usually doesn't help, in fact it may even prevent that person from uploading in future (most people here aren't like that though). It is important to balance your comment, I usually try to say at least one positive thing when I offer advice for improvement. Remember also that even though you may be sure your opinion is correct, the majority may not necessarily agree; your "improvements" may actually lead to a less popular result. Just some things to keep in mind, however I do agree with you that some comments are too nice occasionally. This is OK for new artists, but regular, long time contributors should be able to cope with criticism and take it to heart.
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
::reddawg151
02/10/04 5:51 AM GMT
yup, i always start off with multiple things i like, and then things i think could be improved, and then end with encouragement to keep showing us more! i have yet to see anyone on here who hasn't improved with each image they upload
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http://www.kingsofchaos.com/recruit.php?uniqid=8v8xaap4 Please click that link once each 24 hours, it helps me win a game! Thx!
*caedes
02/10/04 11:40 AM GMT
I agree with the need to discourage ebay-style comments.

"DOUBLE-PLUS GOOD!!! AAAA++++ IMAGES, GREAT COLORS!!!!!"
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-caedes
+ppigeon
02/10/04 4:57 PM GMT
"ebay-style comments..." :-D
Agree with you Bob. Sometimes, you've a lot of good comments and a c-index of 60:100...
We must give GOOD & BAD comments. If not, you can't improve your work...
But, it's sometimes difficult to give bad critics. I remember I noted on a picture: "A pity for the general quality", without other comment... The author was really unhappy ;-)
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"Violence is the last resort of the incompetent" (I. Asimov)
::mayne
02/10/04 5:03 PM GMT
Nice to get comments however they come...it is an acknowledgement that people really take the time to look and appreciate an image. Personally, I find a very nice balance in the comments:-)
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"Next week there can't be any crisis. My schedule is already full." - Henry Kissinger
::Piner
02/11/04 3:01 AM GMT
Usually by the time I get around to viewing a new image, most of what I would post has already been stated by other members, so I will just vote on it and go on to the next. But I don't hold back on critique if it is needed. I appreciate the comments suggesting how I could improve something in the image more then all the Ebay-style comments they could post. :c)
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The work of art may have a moral effect, but to demand moral purpose from an artist is to make him ruin his work. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe - 1832)
::monkeypuzzle
02/13/04 3:28 PM GMT
i agree, as much as i appreciate any comment, i prefer any contructive criticisms, but having said that, i must confess i am guilty of a few 'ebay style comments' mainly due to the fact that most of what i wanted to say would've already been said & i want to squeeze in a comment while i'm at work. & a while back i was driven by the need to acquire karma.
however this is no longer the case.
if i see any work that i can comment about in a helpful way i would : )
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The function of RAM is to give us guys a way of deciding whose computer has the biggest, studliest, most tumescent MEMORY. This is important, because with today's complex software, the more memory a computer has, the faster it can produce error messages. So the bottom line is, if you're a guy, you cannot have enough RAM. - Dave Barry -
::CaptainHero
02/13/04 10:11 PM GMT
Your comments certainly aren't too nice reddawg! ;-)

However, people do seem to hand out high marks easily and offer glowing praise. There must be a balance between being 'too nice' and, on the other hand, offending somebody.

Agree with Pierre as well - loads of positive comments and then a lower-than-you-would expect c-index - what's going on there?

Any constructive feedback on an image is a good thing as long as it is honest and not malicious.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
::reddawg151
02/14/04 2:40 AM GMT
i've never seen any malicious comments on this site. some really strange/funny ones, but not malicious haha
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http://www.kingsofchaos.com/recruit.php?uniqid=8v8xaap4 Please click that link once each 24 hours, it helps me win a game! Thx!
::grimbug
02/14/04 3:24 AM GMT
.. i only really comment .. on images i really enjoy.. however there are some people who i feel confident enough to offer critical comments... and so i will on occasion.

I came to the conclusion early on that not saying anything on some occasions would be better than letting my mouth talk... perhaps i should register a new persona here on Caedes and just let the evil that lurks within my head loose.. but then again perhaps not... how soon would it be till i got banned or all my comments got complained away?? lol... so i will only speak when i aprove and i try not to e-bay it.. generally speaking if i comment it turns into some convoluted rant.. not a lot unlike this one ;).. but i take every oportunity to speak my mind with my voting...so i won't turn around and say i hate it.... but i certainly will slip you a big fat ZERO if i really feel you deserve it. does this mean im a faceless coward? ... hiding in the anonymous animosity of statistics :D
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- "I dont have my own opinions, i just get them from books i read"
::TRACYJTZ
02/14/04 4:21 AM GMT
I remember when I first came on and started uploading images and I would get a little offended if someone said that I should change this or that in one of my images...then, I realized that if I wanted to get any better and to be taken seriously I better listen to suggestions. Don't get me wrong...I love it when I get enthusiatic comments about my work - however, I also very much enjoy it when I get suggestions for a better image. I learn from it and hopefully will come up with an even better project for the next upload. I've become a much tougher critic towards my own work because of it.
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::monkeypuzzle
02/14/04 4:23 AM GMT
lol......"hiding in the anonymous animosity of statistics"....well thats the beauty of the system that allows it : ) no reason to think that the act is coward like. if it calls for it i would too. hey it not like the house of commons.......hear hear, nay nay etc.

anonymous dis/approval has no shame in it : ) in fact i think its better so that the machine may run smoothly
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"Ghalima!!!.......Ghalima!!! shakthi dhe!!!" - Evil Shaman from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom (1984)
SamGerdt
02/14/04 3:55 PM GMT
perhaps if you were required to give a comment along w/ your vote (could be for non-cadre members only), you would get more useful comments. That way if non-members wanted to be able to download images, they'd have to vote AND comment at the same time. This would mean that the people who vote 1 would have to say something about it.
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Achieving Peace Through Overwhelming Violence
::Piner
02/15/04 5:17 PM GMT
Sam- if they had to comment, we would have too many ebay style comments to wade through, or no one would vote.
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The work of art may have a moral effect, but to demand moral purpose from an artist is to make him ruin his work. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe - 1832)
::CaptainHero
02/15/04 5:21 PM GMT
AGREE PINER! TOP COMMENT. A++++
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
SamGerdt
02/15/04 6:22 PM GMT
but they have to vote or they can't download.

and no one would say A+++++++++ Super great! and give it a 5.
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Achieving Peace Through Overwhelming Violence
number7
02/22/04 7:09 PM GMT
I am guilty of looking at only the images that appeal to me. Like a few of you have already stated above, if what I would say has already been said then my thunder has been stolen so to speak. If I truly like the image I still try to say something, anything. Often it comes out sounding like an "ebay comment". Recently I have been trying to look at images that only borderline interest me and then I try to state what I liked and disliked about the image.

About the downloading, I think everyone has a different outlook on how they vote. Some people seem to put very high numbers on many many images. I'm sure it is tougher to get a 10 vote out of others, myself included. I very rarely give out a 10 or even a 9. That being said, I don't look at images that don't interest me so I rarely give out anything less than a 5 or 6. If I were to look at every image I'm sure I would give out lower numbers to some images but it would take a very long time to wade through all the images that get posted every day.

Just my 2 cents.
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-- A one that is not cold is scarcely a one at all. - Strong Bad --
SamGerdt
02/23/04 3:44 AM GMT
this is true... i dont usually vote on junky stuff, but i rarely give out 9's or 10's.
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Achieving Peace Through Overwhelming Violence
::reese
02/23/04 4:15 AM GMT
Boy, this is a tough one - so many different opinions...so I thought I would contribute mine. If I don’t like someone’s work by viewing the thumbnail I likely will not ever give it much thought. But…if it is a regular Caedes member which is active in our community that have gone astray from their normal quality of work, I would consider giving them a low rating & my 2 cents (as I assume many others may). Though normally I’m too nice of a person and end up not commenting and/or voting. I’m working on this – taking lessons from friends on being a … (he, he)! Really, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and as the old cliché goes…someone’s trash is someone’s treasure (is this too cruel?!).
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"To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk." (- Thomas Edison)
::mayne
02/23/04 4:22 AM GMT
Well said Teresa! I usually use the back and forward arrows to navigate and each image gets a bigger view than the tiny thumbnail! Sometimes it is amazing what you can miss in those thumbnails!!
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Darryl
prismmagic
02/23/04 5:52 AM GMT
I think you’re right I’m new to the digital manipulation realm and if it wasn’t for some of the honest criticism and advice I would’ve not have tried to improve some of the images I've posted. Good or bad criticism can only make you grow. Listen and take it with a grain of salt and try to improve. But Like I say critics are great but can they act.
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Clayton H. Bramlett
::monkeypuzzle
02/23/04 7:05 AM GMT
lol agreed, agree with prismmagic & mayne & reese. i've learnt so much from the critical comments by so many.mainly to be critical about ur own work. : ) nods of respect to those. u know who u r.
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"Ghalima!!!.......Ghalima!!! shakthi dhe!!!" - Evil Shaman from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom (1984)
kazadoodle
02/23/04 11:00 AM GMT
I need more critical comments - LOL. I also understand that quite a few of the people who do take the time to comment (coz not a lot do really), English is their second language. It's not always easy to comment or critique in another language, without sounding offensive, although the offensiveness would be quite inadvertent - am I making sense?
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"The job of the artist is to deepen the mystery." – Francis Bacon
+ppigeon
02/23/04 12:09 AM GMT
Hehe! Agree with you, Karin. But I'm learning ;-)
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"Violence is the last resort of the incompetent" (I. Asimov)
bjb
02/23/04 9:20 PM GMT
I think as long as you check yourself for harshness, most people will accept your suggestions. But, I would make them just that...suggestions. All are opinions and there is no need for harsh. Art is too diverse for that. Many have made millions off something I personally wouldn't have hung in my shed! My top favorite comments to read are Samatar's. We could all do well by following his examples.
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number7
02/24/04 1:39 AM GMT
I think it is great when people offer me suggestions. I am new at digital art and I welcome any and all imput. I have yet to recieve anything harsh. I also belong to a hockey message board and I get into a huge amount of discussions with people who use English as a second language. It is very easy for me to get the drift of what someone is trying to say most of the time.
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-- A one that is not cold is scarcely a one at all. - Strong Bad --
+Samatar
02/24/04 9:17 AM GMT
One thing I think I should say is that, if you want feedback (ebay style or not) you should acknowledge the feedback that you have received. There have been authors whose work I have commented on several times but they have never replied, either on the post or personally. To me this implies that either they are not reading the feedback, or they don't care about it. Either way it seems a bit of a waste of time to leave any further comments on their work; so if you want comments, respond to the ones you do get, and maybe you will get more...
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
::JOHANNA
02/24/04 12:24 AM GMT
I think the explanation from Samatar is very good ,and i agree his words.
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carpe diem.
::monkeypuzzle
02/24/04 12:25 AM GMT
I agree with u Sam, but most of the authors works I've commented on have had the decency to acknowledge it & respond. : ) sorry to draw parallels but me & Grim when playing Battlefield1942, demand common curtesy from other players since we go around playing the part of a medic or a mechanic(which does not get scored) we usually shoot them(which doest hurt them unless friendly fire is on) until they acknowledge our service of either healing them or reparing their vehicles. I find the whole act of trying to persuade someone to be curtious quite funny/saddening at the same time. acknowledgement as far as i'm concerned should almost be an automatic response.: )
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"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery; None but ourselves can free our minds." - Bob Marley 1984
+Samatar
02/24/04 12:36 AM GMT
Hmm OK... next time someone is rude I will try shooting them... :-)
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
Winnter
02/24/04 6:51 PM GMT
I just stumbled apon this conversation and thought I would add a little. I am very new to the whole scene and trying my hardest. I know when I do see critism it does not bother me as long as there is a positive comment accompanying it. I can not improve if I dont know what others truly think. I may not always understand what is being said, but I do try....I am a tad bit computer illiterate.
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::kjh000
02/24/04 10:22 PM GMT
Hmm. I've been thinking of what to write here. I don't think I got any problem with too nice comments. I put pride in giving only nice comments or mainly constructive critique. So I only comment on those pieces I like or have a solid opinion on. If I see an image I don't like I simply close the window and let it go... It's when I get nice comments and bad ratings that I get bothered... It's a bit of a drag when people say something like "Oh this is nice. Good job!" and you get stiniking ratings. I guess I have a bit of personal grudge here. It's not the nice comments that are the problem it's the lack of constructive critisism.

If it stinks don't just tell me so... tell me in what way and I'll have something to work on. I guess I'm glad GRiMs evil persona is left at home. ^_^ (Kudos for that.) I would prefer it though if that silent bad rating of yours (I get a lot of those and they can't all come from you Graeme so you are not alone in this respect ^_^) could be transformed into a suggestion in the viewers humble opinion of what the artist could try the next time... It's a bit of a prob if we can't use our point of views for something constructive.

It's not about bad or good though I think. It's about sharing opinions and learning from each others pioints of view... We're here to help each other with being as creative as possible as I see it. We all have to start somewhere. I personally don't really think you should just stick to what you are best at. That feels like cheeting myself and others. Creativity for me means to try new things and perhaps learn new ways to see the world in a way.

I want to experiment. I know some of those experiments are not good. But simply a bad rating will only make me sad and eventually make me revert to my known but boring territory. That might not seem so bad, I take decent shots after all... but I don't think anyone wins down that road. I will only loose my spark if you think it's in place to put me down just because you think I've gone astray. ;-)

What we must do is not to stop giving nice comments but to start giving more real feedback. I do my best in this respect but I've never quite understood the way it's supposed to be done with replies. Am I to respond both in the thread for the submission and in the users personal page. Am I rude if I don't do that for every comment? Sometimes I got something more to say to th eperson in question and then I use the user information page to convay that message. I've been thinking about it and I'm really sorry if I misunderstood this. I try my best. ^_^ That's all we can ask of anyone I guess...
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::reddawg151
02/24/04 10:32 PM GMT
I think as far as replying to comments that people have posted, it's up to you whether or not you want to reply. I think if several people have said positive things, you should acknowledge their support and thank them. Individual responses to every commment definitely isn't necessary.

Caedes: About voting without leaving a comment-- would it be possible that if you want to vote a 1, 2, or 3 you have to leave a comment first?

Klas you brought up another thing-- about being creative and branching out. While this is of course an ENTIRELY subjective matter, I definitely strive to always try new techniques, new styles, everything. It seems best to me when people keep pushing the limits, doing new things, etc. It's easy to keep doing the same type of art, especially when you've found a style/method that really works for you. But then suddenly, you've made four dozen pieces of art that could all substitute for one another.
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~Bob
::kjh000
02/24/04 10:44 PM GMT
I allways reply (in the thread). :) I'm just not sure if I ought to respond to their user information page too.
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Si
02/24/04 10:46 PM GMT
I totally agree with what Klas says about wanting constructive criticism, and I've been very grateful for some of his comments on my pictures. It's nice to post an image you know is good and get praise and high scores for it, but caedes.net wouldn't be fulfilling its potential if it was just that kind of ego-trip. Where it really benefits me is when I put up an image I'm not altogether happy with and someone tells me how they think I could improve it. I don't take that as criticism, but as assistance and mentoring, and long may it continue :-)
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+Samatar
02/24/04 11:56 PM GMT
I certainly don't expect a peronal response when I leave comments. I just meant that an acknowledgement would be nice, in any format. I also understand that some artists aren't going to respond on every picture they post. But I can think of at least two regular contributors whom I have given comments to on at least four seperate occassions (each) and have never seen any acknowledgement that myself or anyone else has commented. So I will probably not comment on their pics any more, not through vindicitveness but because it seems to me that they must not want/read/appreciate feedback.
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
SamGerdt
02/25/04 1:02 AM GMT
I have a feeling that I'm one of them. Uv given me some good feedback sos please don't stop. I usually don't respond that much to my own images. If I do, its just a quick pop-in every few days to say thank you

In relation to the topic - My sig states my philosophy on commenting from now on. A couple of you have seen my recent comments...I hope more people start doin this.
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Every vote is accompanied by an explanation of how I voted, and why. This is in order to solve the problem of comments being TOO nice and not enough constructive criticism.
Alifozma
02/25/04 1:42 AM GMT
i think that being too nice IS bad but we should at least give the artist some compliments... yet a compliment which shows the artist how to do better... or if the art is too bad... we can at least tell them how to do the art better next time... instead of a comment that is too nice.. becuase comments that are too nice are deserved with arts that are worthy of it... and not of the arts which are... i'm sry.. ummm not worthy... mmmm
<('.'<) <( '.' )> (>'.')> DO THE KIRBY DANCE!!!!
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Assaination is the quickest way.

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