I often find myself thinking a lot about human nature. I think I was always this way, but some of the classes I've had at school etc have only made it worse. Not to mention all the things I read and stuff--like manga. Things like Fruits Basket and The Lord of the Rings and such always do this to me.

One thing that just occured to me is--many people wonder if they're selfish or selfless, and often characters are portrayed as primarily one or the other. But are people really like that? I think a lot of people have selfish desires, but also want to help others.

What do you guys think?

I have to agree with you. In the average person, I would think that there is both selfish and selfless ness in them. Your right, ive never thought of that, but now that I think about it, characters in books usually are portrayed this way...

Yea, but usually the selfish people learn a lesson at the end of the book/film. In real life... where would the end be? You just see the person learns a lesson and thats the end?

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

DigiCamMan, that wasn't my point. I know that. But people do both selfish and selfless actions, and often people think of it in terms of a person being one or the other. But that's not totally realistic.

Ah, yeah, in stories the selfish people do usually learn a lesson... I hadn't thought of that. Really, I think sometimes in real life people learn a lesson and sometimes they don't. And sometimes they are taught a lesson and seem to understand, but fall back into their selfish ways. Just how the world works I guess.

I have problems, though. I'm bipolar, and have what they call "mixed episodes", and so usually feel more than one thing at once--well, to put it bluntly, I always feel both everything at once and nothing at all and sometimes a certain feeling or two is more apparent but it's all always there. This doesn't make sense to most people, I guess, and logically it doesn't make sense to me either, but that's how it is. Since I'm like this I often feel both a selfish desire to make a certain decision in my benefit and at the same time wish to do the opposite for someone else's benefit. But I often waver because both desires are so strong in me... so I end up more selfish than ever because I put things off, unable to decide. It's something I need to work on.

You should read Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. I just finished it, it's very relevant to what you are referring to here.

Well bottom line men/women/kids can be selfish and giving all at once, the point is man is not righteous and you are giving him the benefit of the doubt. I have a brother who is 'bipolar' and I have certain feelings about the cause which I will not go into here. You are just being human and overreact to that fact.

I often think about these things alot.

I usually have to write a journal to keep all my thoughts down my they usually consists are questions like that.

Also if we realise how hypocritical we are as a race, things that irratate me such as how strange and different we are as a race, how we see technology etc etc...

Yea, we are kinda hypocrites, aren't we?

And it's strange how irony works. Like before, I was going along with everyone else when people in our group started going out. We'd generally wolf whistle even when they were just hugging.

And now I know how it feels. It's very annoying. Me and Richard kissed today (first time we've kissed) and everyone was just staring. It was really unnerving.

lol were also a very curious race, we ask alot of questions and rarely find the answers.

True ...

You ask in the wrong places.

You need to watch startrek.

...where's 'onespock' anywho? Maybe he can give a hand on startrek background.

An interesting point on this… my therapist once pointed out to me that no act is truly selfless. When you help someone else, you get a nice "ahh" feeling, so did you really act out of a desire to help another? or out of a desire to experience the "ahh"?

Personally, I get alot of satisfaction from being able to help others, and I've been told by friends and family that I'm an extremely generous person. Most of what I do doesn't really take that much effort (usually) on my part though, so I don't really see it as that big a deal. On the other hand, I'm a BIG believer in a little healthy selfishness. Just as long as you don't let it run away w/you… (names omitted to protect the not-so-innocent) 8•P

You're not animaniactoo! Your tongue is sticking out in the wrong direction...IMPOST'R!

pardonez-moi little man? it sticks out in whatever direction I choose! *sticks it out @ YOU* !

Do I smell shell-fish?

Whoa... I stopped paying attention for a couple of days and look what happened...

Ah, well, the first thing I want to say is about what DigiCamMan said about causes of bipolar... urg, pardon me while I try to calm my temper... ahem. Okay, I took a psychology class a few semesters ago, plus both my mom and I have had long-term psychological help (shrinks etc) so I should hope I know what I'm talking about. In class they talked about the bio/psycho/social theory: namely, that the factors that cause mental illenss are usually from more than one source--biological, psychological, and social.

Biological has to do with how your brain is set up; most mood disorders are caused by chemical imbalance. In bipolar disorder, the flow of some sort of neurological chemical is at times obstructed and at times overflowing. (In depression it's just mostly blocked off.) Often genetics play a role in whether these problems are present.

Psychological, of course, has to do with how we think; I personally have a lot of depression, always have, because of philosophical issues I constantly think about. Many people have many different issues to work through.

Socialogical (I think that's a word?) has to do, also obviously, with how humans interact. Often major problems in our lives can set off depression--death of a loved one, for instance. My mom had always wondered what was wrong with me because I was always overly emotional as a child--more than normal--but my depression didn't being to show until my dad died when I was eleven. Other things that can cause this, for example, are divorce, job change/losing a job, and a lot of others. I read this big list once but I don't remember them all anymore.

These things are all proven and have been confirmed by every psychiatrist or psychologist my mother or I have ever seen. In a lot of ways, mental illness is just like heart disease, or lung disease: there's physically something wrong with your brain. Like with someone born with one of their heart chambers too small. (I think this happens. Not sure, though. Cardiology is not something I've studied.) The only reason people think otherwise is that the only obvious sign of illness is through a person's behaviour. However, there is medical proof. I've seen pictures in my psychology test of brain scans done of a bipolar person during both a depressive state and a manic state. (Can't remember what kind of scans. CAT scan, MRI? Haven't looked at the book in a while.) The brain during a depressive state showed barely any activity--it was mostly shown in blue. In the manic state, it was all colours of red and yellow and orange and white. These are extremes that most people's brains never show. Also, medication--which affects the brain physically--does help, if it's the right kind (what will work is different for each person), which points to a physical cause.

Ah, I thought we'd left people who didn't believe in mental illness in my mom's generation and before... I thought most people knew better now. It makes me mad, but it also saddens me... and if you have any more questions or arguments, by all means state them, and I'll do my best to answer them.

Ugh... I got so worked up I can't write any more T_T ...I'll respond to everyone else after I get a break...

Odd...they know all this and still can't really treat it. As I said they look in all the wrong places.

Well, I am not a Christian, I am not a Jew, I am not a Catholic, etc...I can't stand organized religions...and before anyone flames me, listen...I am a very spiritual person. And it is my beliefs that saw me through potential depression when my best friend completed suicide (caused by a physical mental disorder...so yet there IS a physical side to it), they also got me through cancer, and alot of other things. So for me, there is something to looking elsewhere for answers. Having addressed that part of the discussion, the first question was about selfishness. I think there are varying levels of selfishness...some I think are a part of our physical workings.

Ok...so if you want one of my cool gadgets to check out, and I tell you where to go...yeah I'm being selfish (and childish). Cat made a good point about that tingly feeling when helping. Another point to consider...you, me, and my kids are stuck somewhere. It's cold, we are all hungry, supplies are limited. I can honestly tell you that no matter what term you want to put on it, selfishness included, if it will protect my kids, I will screw you and anyone else over to feed and clothe them and keep them safe. Perhaps that is selfishness, or maybe just a mother's love. Thing's like that I think are in our DNA or something. If it was just you and I, I'd probably do everything I could for both of us to make it. Partly because I wouldn't want you to die, and partly out of selfishness...I have a better chance of survival. Throw my kids into the equation though, and watch out.

So, after writing a novel, my point is this...I don't think any human is capable of being 100% absolutely free of selfishness. It is the degrees of selfishness and how we handle our needs that set us apart from others.

Arg! Is DigiCamMan listening to me at all?! Treat! Of course they treat it! With medication and therapy--they've found out that the combination works best--most people with these disorders can live normal lives. They can't CURE it, if that's what you mean--but then there's lots of other things they can't CURE either. But with *treatment* most people can make out all right. However, this takes TIME. I have heard it again and again from my doctor (and others in the profession): each person is different according to which medications, and what doses of them, work the best. But it can take weeks or months to tell exactly how well a certain dosage of a certain medication works. There's no way around this. It's the same as with any other medical problem. They have to do that sort of thing with blood pressure medicine, but I don't suppose you think high blood pressure is a figment of the imagination, too? Plus, with therapy--which is intended to help with the psychological and, hopefully, the sociological aspects--it often takes time for people to work through their issues and, if necessary, change certain aspects of their environments. NONE of these things are easy or fast. I ought to know. I have already been fighting with this problem for two years. But my shrink always says that it takes time and there's nothing to be done about it.

Plus the person has to WANT to get better and actively work on it--which is doubly hard if you have one of these disorders. Some people don't try, either because they can't or they don't want to.

*twitch twitch*

Ah, also, DigiCamMan, I noticed that you quoted a verse from the Bible. Between that and your signature's content, I assume you are a Christian of some sort. This is a common mistake many, many Christians make: that things like "science" and "religion" are totally unrelated; that things like "psychology" are pure crap invented by pagans to mislead us. This is not the case. God created the laws of the universe, which science studies. God created us with intelligence, which he intended us to use. Just because science teaches things like macroevolution doesn't mean it's all worthless! This is what they call, quite horrendously if you think of it, "throwing out the baby with the bathwater".

This common misconception never came about until Darwin's theories were believed so widely. Christians, fearing this blatant contradiction of the story of Genesis and Creation, collectively threw out the bathwater, the baby, and everything else in the vicinity. Certainly many things the scientific community in general believes aren't correct. Certainly all of psychology isn't Gospel truth. That doesn't mean that there aren't many, many truths in them. Do you not believe in gravity, or that the Earth revolves around the Sun, or the Second Law of Thermodynamics? I'm sure many psychologists are just quacks, but that doesn't mean they all are.

Furthermore, if they're all looking in the wrong places, where, may I ask, would be the RIGHT place to look? Please, tell me.


*breathe in*
*breathe out*
*breathe in*
*breathe out*

...

Okay, I'm sorry I went off like that. I just get so annoyed when people tell me that my worst problems are "all in my head" (no pun intended).

Jenn, I won't flame you for not agreeing with my beliefs. I do believe that they are the only correct thing to believe, and don't like it when others denounce them, but neither am I going to preach at you. Once we start doing that no one listens to us anymore. It's because of people like that that I get dirty looks in philosophy class when before I've hardly said anything... sigh. Sorry, I'm being bitter again. I shouldn't be.

Anyway, I think it's good that you got through depression, or--what'd you call it, "potential depression"? That's an interesting way to put it. What do you mean by that, exactly? But I think it's good that you got through that, and a best friend's suicide, and cancer, and other things. Ah, in some cases, I know how you feel. My dad killed himself--due to mental disorder--when I was eleven, and my mother's been depressive for a long, long time, and has been suicidal for most of her life I think. I certainly always remember her being like that. She says she only lives for my brother and me. I think that's sad, but it might be unavoidable. She can't afford a psychiatrist--she's on Medicaid because she's both mentally ill and physically disabled. She sacrifices her own care so she can pay for my doctor and such. I've known for a long time that when I manage to get better and get a degree and a job, when I have enough money I'll make sure she gets taken care of better. I wish I could do more for her now...

Sigh... I got off-track again, didn't I? Oh, well. I think you have a point about the selfishness. People are like that. I'm not suggesting, really, that people ought to be entirely selfless. Well... I dunno, maybe they *should* be, but I don't think they're *going* to be. I'm not entirely sure wanting to save your kids is selfishness, either--they're *your* kids, sure, but it's still you thinking of someone over yourself. I think it does have a lot to do with mother's love. I never felt it, but my mom talks about that sort of thing.

When I said potential depression, I meant that there were 2 paths...1- depression and lots of it, 2- faith and a lot of determination. I teetered for a while but finally managed to go with #2. This is not meant as a judgment on anyone, it is simply the path I was able to take...and faith, not meds played a big role. In fact I blame meds for my best friends death...that and a crappy doc she had. But that is a whole other topic. The point I think I am trying to make is this...there are very real reasons for mental disorders, depression included. There are many ways to cope. Some people choose meds and science and all that...which for many helps immensely. Others like me choose a holistic approach which included accupuncture, meditation, etc. Still others choose only to let their faith carry them. There is no one right or wrong method. People respond differently. What worked forme won't necessarily work for you or the next person. No I am not religious in the sense of affiliation with a church/religion, but that does not mean that I do not have faith. And it has been showed that faith...however the person sees/feels it does have positive results. So when Jerry mentions faith or seeking answers to questions in other areas, I don't think he is trying to convert anyone, or say that anyones way is wrong, I think he is just trying to point out that there is yet another means to find help. I could be wrong, I'm not Jerry (DigiCam).

Back on the point of selfishness. I was watching my cat play with his toy. My other cat walked by and the first one growled at him and hissed, then grabbed his toy and took off. So if that can be seen as selfishness (he didn't want to share his toy), then I would venture to say that to an extent, all creatures have a selfish streak. Again I say that it is how you handle it that sets you apart from the next person.

Ok...they treat it...it doesn't work. That was my point. Now tell me it does work. Drugged up...you bet.

*paging Tom Cruise..paging Tom Cruise...**

Actually Jerry, Aliryn has shown that it does work. As she, herself is a self-professed bipolar individual, she has found her treatment through a combination of medication and therapy.

You mention "drugged up". Do her responses seem to be those of such a "drugged up" individual? Personally, I'd say no. Her replys, as well as train of thought have been rather lucid and well thought out. Which is yet another indication that the bipolar condition can be treated.

"Ok...they treat it...it doesn't work. That was my point."
Well, as Aliryn and Jenn have pointed out, and I'll back this up also, it's a matter of finding the right combination of treatments. Whether it be with therapy, medications, faith or a holistic approach. In the case of medications, yes, it is going to take time to find that balance. However, there is also a small percentage of people who cannot tolerate some, if not all, of these medications.

Now to go back a wee bit in the thread...
"Odd...they know all this and still can't really treat it. As I said they look in all the wrong places."
You mention "they". Treament for any condition, regarless of it being for bipolar, hiv, cancer, etc... it is a collaborative effort between the patient, doctor and family. It is the responsability of all involved to ask questions.

Suggested reading for anyone who's interested: "An Unquiet MInd" by Kay Redfield Jamison.

On this note, I'll also say that I have an ulcer of the uncurable type and asthma. Those are both treated primarily through medicine… although as little of it as possible. I dislike putting drugs in my body, because so much of the time, you treat one thing only to cause another problem. However, when I need to? You better bet I'm taking my Nexium or hitting my inhaler.

I will firmly stand behind pharmaceutical treatment for disorders like bi-polar if they cannot be managed. Because the underlying cause IS a chemical dissimilarity, if the disorder is severe enough, there's no way to treat it otherwise. And yes, as Aliryn mentioned, there has to be an entire program of "testing" to find the right combo and level of meds. That's cuz people's brains are different, and bi-polar covers a range of areas, it is not simply manic and depressive. It covers any set of emotions/energy which swing from a state of "High" to "Low" and back on a regular basis. Sometimes the swing is fast. Sometimes you can spend a year or more in one state or the other… or even in the middle.

Manic and depressive are simply the most commonly known ones, in many ways because they're the most obvious. It's also a much more common disorder than people know, because it also has levels. Some people can handle it their entire lives w/out knowing it, some find out and are not so severe that it can't be managed w/out medication. Although I'll tell ya right now… managing it w/out meds on your own, and learning to just deal can be a hard road.

The hardest part about getting those who should have medication to take or stay on it is, as someone once told me: because they enjoy the highs. Truth. Tis all I have to say bout that.

When Joanna died I tried Xanax (I think that was the name) for depression. It made me feel icky. Then the doc tried me on something else, which made me feel ickier. I don't do pharmaceuticals (except for my asthma meds) mostly because I feel REALLY yucky on them. I don't however oppose them. They just don't fit me. I try to treat my stuff holistically. So when I felt myself sliding into a deep depression I went to accupuncture, meditation, and vit's/herbs. For me that worked, but it took time and a lot of determination (because it's not an instant help). I am by no means pulling a Tom Cruise. When I went through cancer treatments, it was faith that got me through it mentally. But when I have an asthma attack, it is a combo of chinese herbs and my trust inhaler.
To make a warning over depression drugs...Wellbutrin (and a crappy doc who didn't follow up) was the cause of J's suicide. So if you go the pharmaceutical route, get a good doc who will listen to you and make adjustments...or if it's mild, try Holy Basil (also known as Tulsi--an AMAZING herb)...or accupuncture...talk about getting high...I am SO addicted to my weekly accupuncture, it feels so good. Faith works, so does positive talk...or a combo of all of these things...but my number one thing that always seemed to work for me...is laughter. Best medicine around.

Now back to selfishness...
I am pretty damn sure now that it is something all creatures have...as my dog b**ch-slapped our other dog who tried to take her bisquit.

Hehe, all animals are slightly selfish. Even fish are selfish. One of mine (a sucker-mouth catfish) practically lived on top of the feeding-block when I went on holiday, and wouldn't let the other fish near it.

Haa... it feels so great to know there's people out there who not only don't condemn me but who support me... I wanna cry. It's not as bad for me as it was (and is) for my mother, though, cuz nowadays people are generally more educated about this stuff. Also, she grew up in a series of abusive households and got into a bad church, which while appearing to be Christian is actually called the Word-Faith Movement and is technically a cult. It does nothing but screw people's lives over. So she's a lot more susceptible to influence by others' opinions. I just get pissed when someone tells me stuff like that; and she knows better now, but it took her years to get past the idea that it really was "her fault" or "made-up". Ugh... stupid church is probably why my parents' marriage went screwy and also seriously piled up on top of my dad's mental illness, which eventually caused him to kill himself. (I have such an unbelievable family history of mental illness on both sides of my family that when my mom drew a chart up for my shrink and MD I was seeing at university that they both practically fell over. Seriously.) And talk about crappy doctors? In the past couple years before my dad died, when he wasn't living at home, he saw this shrink. Now this shrink said he was okay to leave the hospital (I guess he'd been suicidal; I didn't know about a lot of this stuff 'til a long time after he died... but as I was eleven, I think my mom was correct on not telling me all the details at the time. I was messed up enough as it was over his leaving home and coming back and leaving every other week.) Anyway, my dad was seeing this shrink. This shrink said my dad was okay to leave the hospital--as in, he wouldn't try to kill himself. And he did.

But you wanna know something else? This shrink at some point, not sure if it was before or after that, had a client. This client was a woman who had that post-childbirth depression thing. She had several children. This shrink said this woman was okay to leave the hospital. She promplty drowned all of her children.

...

I really wish I could sue that guy. He deserves it. He's got no right treating patients.

Okay, anyways, I usually don't really put much stock in herbal treatments and stuff, but if it works for you I'm not gonna judge. It probably does depend on the person, but I'm not overly wild about taking stuff the FDA hasn't approved. It would be nice to at least have some official assurance that I'm taking something that doesn't have some crazy rare lethal side effect, thanks very much. Perscription drugs are sometimes like that, but they've been carefully documented and warnings are given. That would be nice. Anyway, I've never heard of Xanax, though my mom might have... they tried her on a lot of things, and she actually reads about this stuff. She actually has "The Unquiet Mind" that Cat mentioned, but I can't read those books. I did try once and found it really depressing. I'd like to be a little steadier in the head first. Plus, I'm afraid I'll start suddenly thinking "oh, I'm like that too" when I'm not, because of psychological influence, which happens to people all the time without them knowing. It's probably not a good thing. Oh well.

Dunno what everyone's talking about Tom Cruise. I mean I know he's been acting like an idiot, but I don't pay much attention to affairs of the world. I've got enough to handle with just myself... -_-;

I'm glad Curt thinks so highly of my replies. I'm not always sure how much sense I make to other people. Half the time I open my mouth--or more often even--my mom and brother look at me like I just said something about frozen xenophobic marshmallows. (No, this is not a sign of being "drugged up". Rather, my thought processes are, medication or no, unaccountably quite different from most people's. I often find this funny, but lately I'm just lonely over it. Sigh...) But I do really try to think things out--really, people tell me "well thought-out" about stuff I write a lot. Reviews of their stories, or teachers about papers--that kind of thing. Hm... and, while on three or four medications for my brain at once... mysterious how people manage this while "drugged up". Right, Jerry? ^_^

Actually, I was on Wellbutrin for a long time, and my mom has been too. (Apparently medication that works for a certain person often works well for a family member--the closer they are (genetically), the more likely the effect will be similar.) It likely does not work the same for everyone, however. If you feel even MORE depressed on medication than off you're supposed to report to your doctor asap, but if you're depressed enough you can't do anything about anything let alone contact the MD. They thought I was just depressive for a long time, so I was on Zoloft and Wellbutrin for a long time. Then when they discovered that I'm bipolar, they eventually decided on Trileptal and Lamictal, and now we're trying to get the dosage right... though the doc eventually took me off the Wellbutrin, trying to keep the mood swings from being so severe... but I sorely miss it. Cat was right: you *like* the highs. It's impossible not to. However, my depression is so severe and when manic my mind is so cluttered that I couldn't function at all.

Also, there ARE a lot more things to bipolar than just depression and mania. There's an unbelievable range in between, and I also have what are called "mixed episodes". This means that I usually feel both depression and mania at the same time and everything else in between as well. This logically makes no sense, even to me who feels it, but that's what it's like. I feel everything that it is possible for any human being to feel, all at once, and at the same time, I feel absolutely nothing. At all. All of that at the same time. Always. Usually a certain area of emotions is a bit more apparent, but I feel all the others boiling underneath, and there's *always* a huge hulking mass of depression at the core of everything, for as long as I can remember, at least since I was ten years old and very likely before. But despite all this, I also feel nothing. I feel nothingness within me and all around even as I feel everything. I call it the Everything and the Nothing. I feel them both always.

As you may expect, this is thoroughly exhausting. I am even tired when I'm asleep. (I told that to my doctor and she said "how do you know?" I don't know! I can just feel it even in sleep! Yeesh. She really knows what she's doing as far as medication, but she makes a lousy shrink. Makes me feel seriously inferiour because I don't jump right back on my feet with a few months' medication. I like my shrink though. He understands.)

Ah, I was surprised. A couple other asthmatics. I usually take a couple things for that, but I haven't seen a GP in so long my perscriptions ran out... so now my lungs are always really tight. Ugh. Oh well. It's not life-threatening for me, just... highly uncomfortable.

Anyway, I have mixed episodes, plus my prevailing mood changes so rapidly I never know what's going on... it's tiring. I just spent a couple of really rotten weeks--one week I was so depressed etc I couldn't bear it. Then I was so irritated for a week I couldn't read or watch movies or anything like usual... I just played Zelda games over and over cuz I couldn't concentrate on anything. And when playing a game you've beaten several dozen times already, you don't NEED to concentrate much. But I was still perpetually irritated and got no enjoyment out of it. What a waste. Zelda rocks. (I *love* the new one... oh, it's so cool.)

Ha ha, animals can really be selfish. My mom's can is the most ornery, grumpiest cat you can imagine. And she doesn't meow. She whines, and she HOWLS. Ah... when our other two cats were alive, she used to shove them out of the way of where they were sitting, but not even take over the spot, just walk away. And she'd shove them out of the way when we'd give them a treat. She wakes Mom up to pet her so Mom has to keep her door shut... then the cat whines even MORE. Very few things in this world are more annoying that a whiny cat.

Alright, sorry my post was really unorganised and redundant and stuff today... I've been up 20+ hours by now... and I think... I am going... to bed.

Whiny older brothers are more annoying than whiny cats. Especially when they feel that hugging your foot when you really need the loo is going to make the world a better place.

In the defense of herbs and the FDA...the herbs I use have been used THOUSANDS of years in Chinese and Ayuervedic medicne, as well as Russian and Native Amercian medicine...and these cultures are some of the oldest known to man. Also just because the FDA doesn't regulate it, doesn't mean its bad. In fact, in Germany many of these herbs are HIGHLY tested and regulated...it's just that the FDA prefers the big money the pharmaceuticals provide (after all they said Vioxx was good for you, and found out afterwards, that it wasn't so good for you)...European countries tend to be more enlightened medicine-wise than the US. Do you know that Turmeric, the main ingredient in curry, and often given by Ayurvedic docs, is one of the BEST cures for arthritis, fibromyalgia and other muscle/joint ailments. If it works so well, why doesn't the FDA look into it? Because it works so well, and pharmaceuticals would lose money if the FDA gave it the go-ahead.

Anyway, just wanted to point out that it is an option, and generally speaking, if you do a little research on the herb, you will find the pro's and con's...and just because the FDA doesn't regulate it, doesn't make it bad.

Accupuncture has been around for centuries and proven to work, yet many HMO's won't cover it. Does it mean its bad...no, just not cost-effective to big business. Anyway the point Rob made about Tom Cruise is that he is VERY anti anti-depressant. While I agree with Tom Cruise (to an extent) that diet, excercise and vitamins do help...sometimes people need the aid of medicines, be it pharmaceutical or naturopathic. If a pharmaceutical works well for you, and your doc is staying on top of things, then I say go for it...if like me it doesn't work well for you and Naturopathic meds (herbs, vitamins, etc) work better for you, then by all means go use it, and don't be turned off by the FDA's non-regulation of it. And the degree of ones mental state abilities differs from the next person, so often the only help a person can get is through pharmaceuticals...just know the side effects, be honest with your doc, and make sure your doc stays on top of your treatments. My depressive state was fairly mild compared to other people I know, so for me, herbs are perfect...my husband on the other hand is bi-polar, and functions much better with the help of pharmaceuticals.

Well said Jenn. :o)

Just asking here... does anyone here have Tourettes, or have a family member with it? My dad has Tourettes. Not severely though. Just wanted to know more about it so I can understand fully.

I'm sorry, I don't know anything about Tourette's... what is it, exactly? I could probably easily find out. We have books on EVERYTHING at my house... plus my mom and maybe my brother's heard about it, and if my mom's heard about it she probably knows a lot.

Ah, sorry, Jenn, I didn't necessarily mean that herbs, acupuncture, etc are BAD. And I really don't know much about the FDA's inner workings or anything. But... I'm just more familiar with pharmeceuticals, I guess. But they're so expensive! It's ridiculous. That, there's absolutely no call for. They're WAY cheaper in other countries... makes me want to hit someone. I take a fair amout of medication, but my mom has a lot of conditions, so she has to take a lot more than me--she has to be on Medicaid. Which sucks. She's both physically disabled and mentally ill, and therefore cannot work. Why is she expected to live on 623 USD a month and get semi-inferiour medical care? It's impossible. And extremely stupid. Tax dollars instead go to building Olympic-size swimming pools at middle schools where I daresay 99% of the students couldn't care less and get nothing out of it. I know someone online whose school fired a teacher cuz they couldn't pay her but at the same time were building all sorts of sports fields/courts things. Gimme a break! Not only that, just last fall in my either county or state, can't remember, they voted down building a bigger prison. Forget that there's tons of criminals, including rapists, roaming around because there's no place to hold them. How fun.

Ugh, sorry. I get kind of sour about that stuff...

Ah, back to acupuncture etc. I dunno anything about it, but I'm not inclined to believe it solely because people say it works. I am, however, too lazy to go find whatever studies have been done to determine that. I don't really care if it works or not, because I'm not planning on denouncing you just because it works for you. If it works for you, fine. But when we can barely afford anything as it is, I don't think I'll be trying it anytime soon... not that you said I had to >_< sorry, I'm in a bad mood. I just went to the doctor, who, because she had been trying to order something for another patient from a place that just had a brand-new phone system today, unintentionally left me sitting in the examination room for at least an hour and a half. When I'm already feeling rotten because I have a sinus infection. Gr! When I finally got home I wanted to just settle down to read something nice and stupid, but I couldn't resist checking in here...

Ah... plus there's a few other things online I wanna check on... sigh. No matter how bad I feel, there's some things I can't help doing... well, if I feel sick or headachy. If it's psychological, hell if anything's certain at all.

Erm... I'm gonna go... take some antibiotics... see ya...

If I may Aliryn ... some, not all ... in the holistic practices such as acupuncture offer sliding scales for fee payments. Essentially based on your ability to pay.

That is one more feather in their cap in my books, comparatively speaking on the matter of costs. It might be worth investigating. Just a thought.

Here you go ... some reading material on Acupuncture.

Life all depends on you, no one else can effect life as much as you can.

I never take pills for anything, never look to anyone else for guidance, I am not able to believe in a god, goddess etc, it just doesn't work for me.

I don't see how a shrink can tell you what you already know, you just have to look for it.

Ok, I shall explain Tourettes. Not in detai... I don't know too much about it.

Anyone who lives in the UK may remember the last Big Brother (the 'regular' people one) where the winner was a hyperactive Tourettes sufferer. He had a very serious version. My dad has a less serious one, but it means that when he gets nervous, he will start coughing and his eye will violently twitch.

Normally you will just talk to him and his eye will twitch randomly, and sometimes he will just do a short cough just to clear his throat. He can't help it whatsoever. Sometimes you can tell where he's sitting in an audience, because there is a random coughing sound.

I can't explain any more, because I don't know any more.