ok, substitute "work" for money, and "words" for mouth and you'll perhaps get what I mean.
Here's what I propose:
A voluntary exemption from theVB and an automatic archiving of all of one's work. this way,silly numbers truly become irrelevant. anyone wanting to see a person's work, simply has to look for it,and there it'll be. and yes, i'll go first.
I grow weary of the pettiness. in all honestly,i would've left already if i didnt think i'd miss the people here, and the work they put out.
and no, this isn't a rant, or a tantrum. please treat this as a serious proposal.

I would support this too - but I would really like a classification of critique please as a category for posting.
The reason I thought this would be a great place was the attraction of someone giving a critique on your/my work. I didn't join to be on the treadmill I've found myself on! Now I spend all my time feeling guilty I haven't responded to a "love it!" comment! I spent a fair time this afternoon giving a critique on someone's work (he asked me to do it) - and I sent it to him as a PM. I wouldn't mind critiques being public so long as a conversation can go on at the same time.
Anyway - your idea is radical, but what do you think would be the positive outcome if it were implemented?

i can't speak for others,but I feel it would de-politcize the process. for me anyway, it would be a return to why i came here...to share.

whether others agree with me or not,i've come to see the VB as a flaw-ridden thing, and it (or at least the topic of it in discussions) has become a polarizing factor here at the site. it's also prone to abuse, whether *caedes will publicly acknowledge it or not. when i still went to vote, infar to many instances i saw images i'd already viewed, and in many cases, knew who the artist was.


my proposal bypasses that, and all of it's inherent nonsense. there's too many jumbo-sized egos here, and perhaps thiswould give some people one less thing to gripe about (yes, i suppose that means me too...sue me,i'm human)

yes, it's a radical step but as you say, for people who are unhappy with the voting system and just want to showcase their work, it may be a workable solution - time would tell if it would result in a loss of exposure and commenting on your pieces though.

understood. not something i'd be happy to do without,but i've been less than stellar with my own commenting, so i can't really ask others to comment on my work. i'm just happy if/when they decide to, and keep hoping i can beat back my demons and eventually return the favor.

*edit*- i'd be more than happy to hear alternatives to what i proposed,as well.

perhaps changing the prefix before your user name to a new symbol indicating that the artist is a non voting member would help in directing browsers to the rest of the gallery as a workaround for the potential loss of exposure.

Rob, I think your idea has some merit in it. I am really not sure how well it would work though. I also understand your frustration with the voting booth and the turmoil and upheaval it causes in other's lives. I, for one, am glad you are choosing to stay here. I don't like to see anyone leave because the site doesn't always work the way they want or what is perceived as the 'right way'. I have watched this site morph several times in the 3 years I have been here and each time feels rather dramatic and drastic, but good has always come from it. We just need to hang on and ride out the storm. As with everything "this too shall pass". ;=)
I am treating this as a very serious proposal though. I would go second if your idea comes to fruition!

Actually, this sounds like a good idea. My one concern though, would be that if your images are immediately archived, they won't show in the "New Images Gallery". That will see a hit to responses of your work, as well as exposure to new members at Ceades.

As a possible alternative would be to able to opt out on the voting system, where by you lose the option to vote in the VB as well as your images do not appear in the VB. But, they still appear in the "New Image Gallery".

"Automatically archived" could just mean "not considered for the permanent galleries" (or whatever they are supposed to be called). If the c-index is used to make decisions about what to add to those galleries, this seems reasonable. Images could just be archived when they'd been in the new images gallery for the appropriate amount of time.

If that was the set-up, I'd definitely be third. I think the c-index encourages and endorses innumeracy which is, for some reason, relatively acceptable despite its pernicious effects in our societies. Will say no more, but I'd love to see an opt-out option of some sort.

- cfr

Hmm ... interesting idea, and I actually have been thinking of something similar as a suggestion.

The other refinement needed, as I see it, would be what to do with non-paying members and the requirement to vote on 10 images per upload.

I realize that this here is not necessarily about that ... however, as the two are intertwined at the moment ... any thoughts as to a work around for that aspect?

Les,it's quite a valid and insightful point. Honestly, though, I'd prefer to see a separation, or distinction there between contributing members (artists) and non contributing members. I'd think a more logical rule would be that if you don't participate in the contribution of art to the site, you shouldn't vote, either. Mind you, that may already be the case, but if it isn't it should be.

Having said that, and to address Curt's point (also a good one) I am not saying I dont want to share my work. I'd just like to circumvent the whole rediculous voting process. I see shots that could be taken by someone in a coma get the same or better scores as some masterful works, be it photographic or otherwise.

Then there's the whole issue of what exactly the score determines. That answer varies day to day, mod to mod. Call me cynical,but when the same question gets 20 different answers, you have to wonder why. Personally, I believe very little of it. Then there's the issue of making individual votes hidden. What kind of crap is that? It's our work, and we deserve to know what it was voted as. I have to ask, if the only reason to hide them is not to listen to member's complaints, perhaps that in itself is a validation of what's being grieved, no?

If this site is really to be the community it's said to be, either fix the voting debacle or do away with it,and let it just be about sharing,and not who gets the "brass ring".

If you're too busy, or perhaps indifferent for that, arrange for a way for members who so choose, not be subjected to it. And yes, that was directed to you,Geri.

OK - let's play the truth game.
You, Rob, get very good scores for your very good photographs. You have an artist's eye and the results are obvious to those who appreciate good composition, talent etc. (Don't blush!). You are getting your good c-index scores on merit.
I have been working hard, stubbornly posting what pleases me, with the occasional deliberate 'pull' and decent votes pictures. I've done photography a long long time - and painting etc, so its all good fun and pushing myself. I've had scores so far from 19 - 83 and am very unsure whether that really makes me happy! I also see 'ordinary' (putting it politely) pictures immediately shooting up in the 70s and 80s straight away - and sometimes I really wonder what I'm aiming for? Popularity (stop laughing Rob), or recognition for imagination, creativity and skill? I'd rather be pulled apart on these criteria than the popularity stakes! So I agree. I was attracted by the thought that here, after many years, I would meet people with whom I could exchange critiques on our photos - and for goodness sake (!) look at it in terms of the photograph and not the popularity of the photographer!
You feel you've gotten there - good scores - but it gives you no pleasure because others are joining you who obviously have gotten there by other means.
I don't know what the answer is. Heads I win, tails you lose. Keep taking them pics Rob and go on from here - perhaps commissions? Gallery sites? Submit to exhibitions and see what happens?

PS A little searching question. How many photos do you comment/critique on, when you don't know the photographer? Do you give critiques?

Sounds like someone’s not having fun anymore!! 8~(

“Then there's the whole issue of what exactly the score determines. That answer varies day to day, mod to mod.” I ain’t getting that…I’m not a mod, and I vote. Again, maybe I ain’t getting’ watcha sayin’..sorry buddy. “Then there's the issue of making individual votes hidden.” I’m really lost on that one too.

I vote, try to daily. If I don’t…no biggie. I’m pretty sure I’ve voted on your images a time or three and I know I’ve voted 8, 9 and maybe even a 10 as well as 2, 3 and 4…I’m tough (so I think), in the voting booth. I give out maybe 3 to 4 10’s a month, while others are like…”OH!! 10, 10, 10”!! You get the idea. You do some stuff I really like and some stuff I don’t and I’ve commented in that regard on both as I recall. Take a peek at my gallery as I guarantee there'll be tons of stuff that doesn’t trip your trigger, but…if you find just one image that gives you a tingle, then I’m good to go with that.

Anywho, I sure don’t waste time thinking about one of my images getting a 67 while on the other hand a post “taken by someone in a coma” gets a 73. I’m here to have fun, period. If I can learn something, great…if not, then that’s my loss.

Hoping much fun to flow your way soon!!

(Removed to it's own thread)

Les, Randy (3's? you bum :P) Kate, cfr,Mimi, and Phil and Curt. Thanks for the input. I'll have a longer (and calmer) post on this when i have time. I'm in the middle of something huge at the moment, so participation will be spotty for now.
thanks again...
Rob