It would seem that there are a number of discussions going on about content, snapshots ... and so on.

Give your thoughts some air time ... on this thread. I am apppointing myself moderator and at the first instance of inappropriate remarks, baiting and anything else I deem inappropriate ... I will call in the Elephant Hunter.

So, your choice ... make your thoughts known in a respectful and polite manner ... or lose the podium.

As far as appropriate content goes, it is spelled out fairly clearly in the COC. Occasionally there will be examples where the mods disagree on this but not very often. Snapshots are much harder to define and therefore police. One thing that people really need to come to realise is that if an image is removed, it's not because someone is targeting you or has taken a special dislike to you in particular... also threats to leave the site because you have had a snapshot removed are not going to get you anywhere...

Thanks Sam.

I do get the impression that the system could be improved upon somewhat in the instances of images being held in 'limbo' so to speak (suspected rips), removed ... whatever. So, hopefully this discussion will bring to light the experience of those on the other side as well.

Yes, I am aware that there are written statements on the uploads page, in the site's FAQ and so on. Just think it needs a little more tweaking that's all. Some automated and polite PM to the member who's image is in question is better than silence.

If I understand what currently happens correctly.

As far as appropriate content goes ... in my mind if it is posted and available for viewing the image has passed muster. So, when I see some taking offence at an image ... I don't think that the artist should be subjected to commentaries that veer from the quality of the image and so forth.

Anyways, just some thoughts. Thanks for contributing.

In the case of my image, "My Chosen Family", that is pretty much what had happened. The image was pulled without warning. I posted a thread asking why it was gone as well as PM'd two mods about it. In fact one of those mods, I watched appear and disappear 3 or 4 times in the "Users Online" listing, without responding to my PM.

When the response finally did come through, it was only to state that the image was moved to the "limbo" gallery to determine it's "appropriateness" for the Caedes.net site. No explanation beyond that was given.

Do I deserve the right to be told, why it is inappropriate? I believe so.

I have also come to know that the "objections to your piece were pretty gentle". if that is the case, again, why was the image pulled? And not just have it's appropriateness discussed on the Senate floor and be done with it? Unless, and this is a BIG MAYBE, the mod in question pulled it on his own initiative based on his own personal beliefs.

Does it feel like a slap in the face, to have had the image removed without any reason given. Even after it had already passed muster? ... YES

Am I glad a sense of reason prevailed on the Senate floor and my image returned to the galleries, accepted for its artistic merits? ... YES and THANK YOU.

(Les we need to talk.. I keep channeling your knack for long windedness... :oP )

"But one might argue, is lust emotion, or the culmination of physical desires and wants? Without morality, is it anything more than unguided impulse, possible of leading to STD's, unwanted underage pregnancies (which lead to abortions), and a host of other problems. Love is an emotion, totally apart from lust. True love, love of a person, can exist without the aspect of self gratification, or physical intimacy. Are you really vaunting love and emotion, or physical, carnal desire and sexuality?"

Caiden: If this is all you can see, the darkness, evil, and "what if's"... then it is you who has MY prayers.

Yes, "My Chosen Family" does depict two men and a woman in an embrace. And, yes, I am a gay man. But, have you actually bothered to look at the image and ask yourself why are their hands placed the way they are over the center individuals heart? Have you even bothered to concider that the very same facial muscles that show pain, also are used to express extacy, and that's why these two emotions can look so much alike?

The appearance that they may be nude. Have you thought to look beyond the "sex", and see the use of nudity to express vunlerability against an unforgiving world, both in classic and modern art?

You also make use of "What-if's", and I'll also quote this also from your PM:
"You may tell yourself you're not hurting anyone, but your picture may cause someone who has never looked at a dirty picture to fall into a pit of pornography and addiction as he goes from one site to the other looking for, "Just one more porn pic" to fix him up."

Now, let me reiterate my "what-if" that I had PM'd back to you, which you seemd to have managed to ignore, or just pass off...

Suicide among gay and lesbian teens is a very real issue, in this climate of hate and intollerance, especially when it is being directed at them by their families. If one of my images can reach out and let them know.. "Hey, I'm OK for being who I am" instead of them continuing to spiral down into their own pit of despair. Then I concider that a win-win situation, and what I have created has made a difference to somebody.

That is my "what-if", and to remove it from the public view... who's responsability is it then? Mine? Yours? The mods? If that makes me a villian, then so be it. Every great story needs a villain, doesn't it?

Remeber, art, in any form, isn't just there to be pretty to the eyes. It's there to make you ask questions about your own life situations and to allow you to explore who you are, inside and out.

OK... I think I have ranted on long enough...

As I said on the image... I think its really sad that some people can't view any image depicting closeness without assuming that it has to be sexual...

me thinks "inner demons ie: DESIRES run rampant causing inner turmoil and guilt....fear of the unknown and one's own self...

*slaps fore head*

Why couldn't I have put it that simply?

Well said, treei.

How do they know that the people are fully naked? In my opinion its tastefully done, there is no nudity.. ohh sorry... they dont have shirts on.. duh!!!!! It is art, and even the great classic artists had nudity and displays of effections with same genders and opposite genders etc.. I can't see how people can be offended by the image in question, its 3 people who are portrayed as caring for each other.. It's a shame that it hasnt been seen as art..

Curt: I give you permission to post my rants here… (just clean up the language where necessary)

In the meantime, I'm a go post on the image exactly what I said in one of those PMs:

There is nothing pornographic or obscene about this image. It isn't even overtly sexual. You can find a hidden meaning in almost anything if you look for it.

Content, snapshot - appropriate for posting on Caedes?
Is there a category specifically for the style? If so, then the style is acceptable for posting - yes?
I must admit to feeling indifferent to, say, shots of pet cats - but there is a category for that, so obviously it is acceptable.
A slightly glazed look comes over some viewers to nude statues! Got to laugh, but there it is (or was, or could be...) - well, sculpture is a category, so is all sculpture acceptable? Or only what a mod deems acceptable?

There is no b&w category (strange this, I think) - but that is obviously acceptable.

Nothing is actually specified about what is considered a 'snapshot' or unacceptable.

In our multi-cultural Caedes, many images are unacceptable to some people (although they may not offend others)!

For myself, if I find an image objectionable - I just don't look at it again! That's it! Why can't others do the same?

Good point, Kate....why come back again and again....if one find's someone's work objectionable? :)
As far as Image Mods: they have a tough job....and they get somebody pushing that panic {complain} button and they have to try to analyze or would that be ANALyze what is questionable and try to work to appease all.

Caiden's post on Curt's image:

Merely asking a question is all. You may answer it however you want to. I was merely asking a question, in response to what has been said several times about people who believe as I do. You may tell yourself whatever you want to about this image, yourself, or me in order to make yourself feel better.

I'm sorry that you saw my question as an attack. I'm sorry you felt the need, MM to lash out at me with vulgar accusations because of it. Or that, animaniactoo, you feel that me stating my opinions and beliefs is forcing them on you. That was not my intent. It was merely to make you think about what you are doing. Obviously it's made you look inward far more than you are comfortable looking.

Having said that, I'll leave. I am sorry this pic became the grounds for such a discussion that hurts all of your feelings, but you must expect that when you put pictures such as this up, and it shouldn't surprise you. I'm still praying for you CurtieBear, and I hope God will continue to lay upon your heart the PM I sent you.

I honestly hope you all have a good day. I'm not just saying that.

Caiden.



Me here: Please believe me… you did not cause me to look inward and be uncomfortable. I know who I am, and all my foibles, and I accept them. Some I work to be better about. Some I decide are liveable parts of who I am.

It is not the question that forces another's views on me, it is the action of having an image I thoroughly enjoy and celebrate and see it in love and pure emotion removed because someone else who is intolerant and not accepting of people as people whoever they love or whatever they believe demands it.

What I'm sorry about is that you seem to think that you from your self-righteous standpoint have made any impression on me rather than making me think that you are trying avoid aspects of the world @ large.

Because the truth is that there is nothing pornographic in this image, and I do mean nothing. And the word "family" in the title implies the very commitment you seem to think is lacking from this image.

Perhaps we are not the ones who look inward and are uncomfortable.

I would like to voice my opinion .. (*clears throat*)

This belongs in a different forum ... Desktop .. or .. Non-Art Website ISSUES

If I can put my 2 cents in (this may be rather lengthy and thank you for the invite), I was upset about my photo "Maxine" being rejected but to find our CurtieBear's "My Family" has been pulled after being OK'd is outrageous! I'm an art teacher and I'm flipping through some of my art books: Did you know that Adam is in the Sistine Chapel with his penis showing (oooOOO)? That Renoir's "The Bathers" has 2 totally nude women and Edgar Degas' "Woman Drying Herself" show blatant nudity? Look way back and find that the greatest artists have painted nudity and much of it included violence (e.g. The Rape of the Sabine Women). Look at some of Freida Kahlo's work. I wrote a PM to CurtieBear and raved on and on about his "My Family". It is a real work of art (from an art maven's POV). The lighting is extremely Rembrandt-esque. The subject matter conveys what we all need more of today...love. It's very artfully and tastefully done and I've added it to my favorites. His "Man's Shame" is also there. I can't wait for more of his art and concepts. Regarding my own "slap in the face" with "Maxine (q.v.), it was rejected twice and I never will understand why regardless of the explanations. She is posted now (unless taken down) and I deleted my entire Gallery. I thought of leaving Caedes but that would be childish (I'm 70 for heaven's sake) and no one will have begged me to come back. I was posting photos and have joined Caedes for sharing and conversation. I've saved several other's photos in my faves and look forward to more. I've been "lurking" because I still enjoy most of the work I've seen but I'm not sure I want to post images any more. I'm not a sore loser or sour grapes but there doesn't appear to be any good system of balance or equity. I know that judging art is a very hard job, I've had to do it. I also regularly enter oil painting and photo contests and I can certainly handle rejection. The problem here is that this business of "snapshots (and sooo many are the posted photos are exactly that, that I don't understand why some very mundane photos are accepted and others of equal quality to Maxine are not. Ahhh, enough said, I said I was going to go on and on...don't get me started :}

As Sam said the criteria for content and snapshots etc is laid out quite clearly in various places on the site. Common sense of the artist should be able to determine whether or not they would fall within the guidelines. As far as Curts images go I wouldn't have said they are outside the CoC restrictions - you'd see more flesh watching a Bowflex infomercial. What is unacceptable is people belittling or demeaning both the artist and their work based on their own blighted beliefs be they sexual, religious etc. When I've done work like this myself in the past I always try and push the boundaries a little but at the same time I usually consult various other people be they mods or other Aediles members to see what they make of it before I go ahead and I either post it or if need be tone it down a little. As others have said art traditionally features nudity - even classical religious art so it would be hypocritical to try and take a moral high ground on something just because it isn't a couple of hundred years old. Of all his recent stuff, i'd say only the marine image could be sliding toward the gratuitous side of the scale slightly.

As for snapshots - I tend to be a lot more hardline on people who I know from seeing previous works are capable of far far better pieces as was the case with Sherree's puppy post also.

QUOTE FROM CAIDEN: I'm sorry you felt the need, MM to lash out at me with vulgar accusations because of it.

*ponders the vulgarity of anything I have said....but remembers that love and friendship and images of such ARE VULGARITIES to you....so I'll just say this:
Good luck.....bye bye now......and God already blessed Curt...and gave him a direct line to call himself....so he doesn't need to channel thru YOU.

Truthfully....in my heart...I do feel sad for this ugliness.....and hate to see you go...IF you do, Cain. Maybe if you judge art as art, and not the people who make it....you will find we are all a loving bunch of friends...and you might even learn to like us if you shake off that fear and confusion.

Caiden... if you start insulting people you should expect to cop some flak... and suggesting that an artists work is "pornography", or suggesting that we would allow it on the site, is insulting and offensive to both the artist and the site...

i cannot play nice in this thread, as dear les requested...
i will say a few brief things and those of you who knowme can fill in the many deleted expltives...

my best friend was gay...she completed suicide...curt, you make an awesome point...as a result of her death, i am big in the local suicide prevention organization, and gay teens and even adults are at risk

gay is not an evil or ugly word...at one time our society used the word gay to mean happy, jovial

anyone who hides behind hatred but claims to be of god...needs to go back to bible school...sexual orientation aside, god don't like haters

now feel free to fill in the blanks, and give me props for holding my tongue this time rather than going off as i really want to do.