I had an idea. It's intended for anyone with issues with the VB, comments, and any other inequity, real or perceived.

Perhaps, on a VOLUNTARY BASIS a short-term post of an arbitrary amount of time (let's say a week) after which the image would be taken down.

This would still allow some degree of sharing, input, etc..and circumvent the whole ranking issue, as well as the perm vs. archived concerns.

I had this idea after realizing two very definite things. The first, is that I enjoyed (truly) sharing my work, and on occasion, getting some helpful feedback. I say "on occasion" because compliments, while nice, aren't helpful, per se.
The second thing is that after the time I've spent without posting, I still feel the same way I did about all of the things that led me to stop in the first place.

It's been made painfully clear on a number of occasions that the site's position on these issues, or at least any expression about them is one of "oh, not again" and not "hmm, might be worth re-consideration"

Any thoughts on this are most welcomed, and maybe just maybe, this can be a thoughtful exchange of ideas, and not a barbaric free for all.

To post or not to post, that is the question.

8~D

I say post'em if ya got'em and screw the c-index!! Too many people get stuck on that...ugh!! I've only been takin' snaps 1 1/2 years and fractals a little less than that...I've learned more and to me feel as though my skills have improved throughout that time, because of the c-index---hell NO!! I've watched and looked at other artist work, I've ask questions of people I didn't know as well as that I did. Me, myself & I feel like I've learned tons since my membership started and I generally pick-up or learn something new weekly...that's a coin in my cup every time!! I enjoy myself when out shootin', doin' my post and presentation. If I post it then for some reason I like it and if just one person thinks it's half-way OK then I'm happy, even if it's c-index is 23. It's a number, plain 'n' simply.

I have missed you and your works, you really had some interesting perspectives on things and a nice creative flow...other things I didn't care for, oh well...here's a tissue.

Anywho, post..don't post!! Vote, don't vote!! Why can't we all just have fun!!

Remember...only YOU can prevent forest fires!!

Hugz 'n' peace to ya R-Dude,
Randy

(*cowers in fear from the shot across his bow*)

(*peeks out*)

(*decides to say nothin'*)

speak yer piece, Bub.. your immunity's assured

It would be interesting to see how many people posted to this TEMP gallery on their own

The Admins don't want to delete\reject, outright, the poorly conceived images, because they know that some will learn from the feedback they receive .. many have said so in the past ... but they also want the originators to understand that they have no place in the greater scheme of things and will be deleted ..

Others, on the other hand, are treating the site like a photosharing club .. and, even if you tossed the words desktop\wallpaper out of the site description these images would still have ZERO merit as art of any classification (my opinion, of course) .. these people should research other hosts for these images (like flickr, for example) ..

As has been said before .. the site NEEDS to refocus itself back to its original direction, even though the size restrictions, having been lifted, confuses that point ... it is hoped (by this reporter, at least) that the membership will tighten the guidelines by which they police their own uploads

If all non artistic images were directed to this gallery BY THE POSTER .. a gallery that self-cleaned, based on date, after a month, say .. then the admins would have an easier time dealing with the issue. .. but, very few of the people posting these images will acknowledge that they belong in this gallery .. and therein lies the rub

call me crazy but i don't understand. perhaps restating the idea would straighten me out a bit. help, por favor.

It's pretty straightforward as is. Try harder.

*but, very few of the people posting these images will acknowledge that they belong in this gallery .. and therein lies the rub*

Thats it in a nutshell !

Until there is a magic wand to wave over an image to determine what is an 'artwork' and what is a 'snapshot' better suited to a photo sharing club, then things can not change. Also what is 'art' to some may be rubbish to others. (See my signature- we all look at things differently)

Of course all my uploads are 'works of art' at the time of posting - isnt everyone's? lol.
It is through advice, opinions and the dreaded c-word thingy that they are deemed to be one or the other, and in most cases reality sets in, that in itself being an incentive to improve.

If I wanted to belong to a simple photo sharing community I would not be here. I want to learn, improve and observe. To do so in a friendly atmosphere is what makes Caedes a special place to belong to, and I don't think I am wrong in imagining that some of the top-rating artists here were once 'snapshot' artists, and may perhaps have reached the standard they have through doing exactly what the rest of us are doing - trying trying, trying. And listening.
( I am often told I am "trying" lol)

Yes, there are many images posted that do not "make the grade",I see them every time I go to the VB, but my opinion may not be yours and it is not only novices such as myself that do this - but what IS the grade? The grade is determined by peer opinions and the choices of image mods.

Keith, I am unsure what 'the greater scheme of things' actually means - and I understand that the size restricions having been lifted was in an effort to encourage artistic flair.

As far as I am aware I have never had an image rejected or deleted. I am not assuming that it is because none have deserved to be - I am grateful that archiving is the softer option - as I said before, and I imagine most would feel the same if being truthful - all my uploads AT THE TIME OF UPLOADING are potential works of art - until they are shot down in flames or sink dismally to the bottom of the heap. If Caedes is to become primarily a showcase for professional and expert efforts then the aspect of being a place to learn will be lost. There would be no lesser works to compare the top ones with and the sense of community would be lost.

In theory a TEMP gallery could work - perhaps call it the Sharing Gallery or something - but I suspect the nutshell Keith so clearly stated would be hard to break - those that would use it would not necessarily be the ones that should be using it. However, it could well serve as a repository for technically imperfect but interesting images, and the purists need never venture inside it. It would save the voters from having to vote for them. Comes back to the question - what do we compare the good ones with?
Certainly worth consideration.


Another thought

Archive:noun: -A depository containing historical records and documents

Permanent: adjective - Continuing or enduring without marked change in status or condition or place.

To many, 'archiving' means rejection and we all know that Permanent does not mean what it says.
Perhaps if Archives were referred to as GENERAL GALLERIES and Perms as SHOWCASE GALLERIES then fewer knickers may get twisted.

Until I joined here I only ever took 'snapshots' - and not good ones. I believe I have improved my skills and expectations of myself by being here (I hope so, new cameras don't come cheap, I have to have something to justify that :) ) If I had not felt welcome, and recieved help advice, praise and criticism I would not have stayed. We all have to learn, some of us will, and some of us never will, but anything that discourages potential improvers would not be a good thing. I fear having to decide before uploading whether an image is worthy of judging may do just that.

Seems as though my suggestion of short-term posting has been translated into something other. I wasn't putting forth that this be compulsory, punitive, or judgemental. The irony is that I was actually looking to skirt around those three things.

While there are lesser-quality images being posted, I wasn't exactly addressing that. The temp post thing for snapshots, andthe like... not a bad idea, but a very different concept from what I was suggesting.

Simply a 'no voting' category for images you wish to have evaluated in an intelligent way, by the more accomplished artists?

That of course would probably deprive those of us who would feel unqualified to give advice on technical matters from seeing them, as many would not bother looking, feeling they had nothing constructive to offer. When time is an issue it would most likely be concentrated on voting, and looking for nice things to say about the good the bad and the ugly.
And you would miss out on the nice feeling given by a "wow, thats nice, I have this on my desktop for today, thanks"

Well .. perhaps I, too, misinterpreted Rob's suggestion .. I am not perfect

I COULD provide links to the type of image I am referring to .. rest assured Lyn you are not at the end of that link

(*double checks*)

yes .. it's not you


:o)

Rob, I can only answer this from my personal view. But I can tell you, my feelings get hurt here now and a while - the last time, as my proud "Belvedere" was archived - and I can not imagine, how it must feel, when somebody would tell me "go and post this in the short time galerie." I think, it would be more important, to work on the c-index thing. The most important thing would be: no voting for new members. They could come along, have fun at the voting, and destroy the c-index of many images, in five minutes. If they would have to have at least a karma of 100, they would not waist their time here ...

ok, I'll try once more.

I suggested putting up images, and then voluntarily removing them. Whether it's a week, a month,whatever,is unimportant.

Most of my work, and images I've seen elsewhere on the site, receive most comments in the first short period following posting anyway. And honestly, if rippers can copy our work, who's to say we can't download an image and enjoy it for time eternal?

Most of those who have a problem or an issue with a low score, or the archiving of an image, object because of the "fate" their images face. I was simply suggesting a poster defy that fate, by determining how long an image stays up, letting people see it, and then replacing it with something new for them to see. Not, as it seems was interpreted, to wind up with nothing on display at all.

Earlier today, I had a bit of a personal enlightenment. I dug deep, and really thought things out.

Stay tuned.

That used to happen.. the mods would go through the galleries and remove images every so often.. but as with everything people complained about their "best" or "fav" piece being removed kinda like now when complaints start up about it being archived (which I personally think they should think themselves lucky it wasn't removed as it would have been in the "old days")

It would decrease the number of images required to be evaluated by the image mods if we were given the ability to archive our own images after a specified number of votes were given, and have the total number of images awaiting consideration capped.

Unless I am missing something, the only way someone would be able to "target" a particular person would be to check their gallery each time they were about to go to the voting booth; then they would have to make a mental note of each image, and then go through all the other images they were required to vote on until they found one of their "enemies" pictures (assuming one showed up at all during their voting run). Seems like alot of work for not much gain to me, especially since theirs would be only one vote and so, as far as I am aware, would not effect the overall score to any large degree anyway. I can accept that targeting particular types of images (eg fractals, flowers etc) would not be as complex, but still as far as I can see, really good images seem to get good c-indexes regardless of the medium.

Personally I agree with the idea of self-moderating. I recently went through my gallery and reduced it from 8 pages (which is really far too many) down to 4... as Rob pointed out, one very rarely receives comments on images that are older than 2 weeks anyway, and since I have developed since I uploaded some of these images, or I don't feel they are my best work, they should be removed to make way for higher qality work. But in the end, I think the most important thing is to do what makes you happy, and not worry about what other people think so much...

PS something that just occurred to me... as I said I find the idea of "revenge" voting unlikely... buut if people are doing it, I bet the most satisfaction they get out of it would be reading threads from the people they target saying how it upsets them. Not saying that means people shouldn't speak up if they feel they are truly being targeted, just a thought.

"8 pages (which is really far too many)"

Yikes !! is is?
Then capping the total number of images allowed as I mentioned b4 would seem the way to go.

:( dejectedly heading towards my bloated gallery -

Well, for me personally, 8 pages is too many to keep track of and more than I think anyone is going to be willing to wade through. Personally I would prefer to have a few pages of "outstanding" than many pages of a mediocre mix. Like I said, you should do what you feel comfortable with, rather than what I think you should do :-)

I just rec'd a comment on ..

☻---->Shameless self promotion<-----☻

this image is archived .. and when an archived image is commented, it tells you that somebody took the time to peruse your gallery

that's the only purpose archived images serve .. well, besides reminding you how terribly wronged you were when it was snubbed

:o)

It is always a pleasure when an older, perhaps archived image is commented on. If someone has found it pleasing then it was worth leaving, no matter what its status, or rating.
Unless of course you personally dislike it :)
Keith - you are suggesting we should feel snubbed when an image is archived ? Surely not ?
lol Boy, am I snubbed - if that is the case.

I already commented on that Keith !

this will change the thread a bit. i have a very large gallery. the main reason i have it is so that i know what i've submitted and what i haven't. is there a way to (in a mass movement)copy some of the gallery into a file so i can delete a bunch of stuff?

screen shots of your gallery pages would be my guess at an easy solution

I would support third_eye's original suggestion, but don't really see how any of the subsequent comments engage with or address it. I don't see that self-censorship has anything to do with it, since it wouldn't be a question of posting images one thought of lesser quality there. And the images could be commented on, but not voted on, I assume. It would simply be a way for people to avoid subjecting their images to the c-index, subject to the understanding that such images would be deleted after a certain period of time regardless. At least that's how I understood it. Nothing to do with quality.

- cfr

nicely summed up, thanks

It's a good idea... but.. do you honestly think that the "ego's" on here would voluntary post their images into a gallery that would be archived/deleted? you'll find the members who will post to that gallery are NOT the ones who are complaining about the voting or the c-index.. why? because the "ego's" images are the best..

*sorry if that offended anyone..

the only people who would probably post in that gallery are members who "think" that their work isn't up there with the best.. and I honestly think that way we will end up losing great pieces of work.

Oh well thats just my opinion.. in theory its a great idea.. in practice I don't think it would work.

Just another thought.. if people just wanted the comments why can't they just ignore the c-index score.. or make it hidden on the page so if that person wanted to view the "C" they could click on a button and view it..

*Just another thought.. if people just wanted the comments why can't they just ignore the c-index score.. or make it hidden on the page so if that person wanted to view the "C" they could click on a button and view it*


A perfect solution !!
Ergo the egos, and everyone else, is happy.

To C or not to C - that is the question :)

I'll happily practice what I preach, and put a 14-day expiration on my stuff...feel free to d/l..the rippers do...

Rrrrrrrrip!! Oh my, excuse me!!

~waves hand behind self~

8~O

I've got 21 pages of post and I ain't taken'em down...they're all GREAT and AWESOME!! Go there now and DL my stuff!! Fun, fun, fun @ Rocker's Picture Paradise!! Some restriction do apply, void where prohibited!! ;~)

I's got's stuff that range (c-index), from 4 to 91. The higher the number I've noticed the less and less there are...oh well...it's me and my stuff. To me it's a mark of my progression; I actually go thru my stuff, from time to time and think "WOW that was a good one" as well as "what was I thinking". I use it to remember where I've been and what I've accomplished since joining Caedes. If Master Caedes wants me to remove some or all for server space I surely would, but that doesn't seem to be a problem. If somebody wants to sniff around my stuff, fine by me.

Viva la resistance!!

Oh, and ROCK on!! Glad you're back to posting dude!!

*8 pages is too many to keep track of and more than I think anyone is going to be willing to wade through. Personally I would prefer to have a few pages of "outstanding" than many pages of a mediocre mix.*

Sam,Big is not always better but big is not always bad either. If anyone wants to look around my gallery all they have to do is select 'sort by c-index'- if they don't want to wade through the mediocre, bearing in mind that some that are deemed mediocre by c-index standards, have in fact, been made permanent, and others which are considered 'not mediocre' by that same standard (by that I mean above 80)have been archived.
I am sure I have more than 8 pages worth leaving but of course I am a teensy weensy bit biased.
To each their own I guess, and if space is not an issue I do not see the harm in leaving them. Just a personal opinion :)
Now I just have to go and look at the above mentioned image with a c-index of 4 . . . . :)
Aha, a ploy (successful) to get us into that gallery lol
Did you know I have one with a c-index of 3? And another at 104 !!